More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[datum]

I want to explain why I joined the forum and why I am posting here. I try to learn more about the political situation and I try to have various sources of information. I follow the international news channels (usually in the Internet because I do not like TV) everyday, I but both the Nation and Bangkok Post, I follow some blogs of people I trust and I talk to my colleagues in the office. I wanted also to follow a forum of people that they live here and i found the thaivisa. Why this introduction? Because I will continue posting here but I want to make clear that I'll not engage my self in any endless discussion with people that obviously have an agenda here and are posting just to pass their red or yellow propaganda. Three days in this forum have been very useful for me and I've seen how deep the hate between radical reds and yellows is. I do believe, as a principle, that average people are fundamentally good and it is mainly their experiences and the socio-cultural environment that they grow up that will made them good or bad. I do believe also that there are many "flowers" in the red and yellow group. And by flowers I mean average people that they have some beliefs and they want to fight peacefully for these beliefs. I am sure that if it was in their hands democracy in Thailand would have been better. At the same time I do believe that both the red and yellow groups include many garbages; garbages that have one and only objective: To stop any process for more democracy in Thailand. They have of course different reasons for not liking democracy but obviously both of them hate democracy.

To end my message; I liked very much the latest Economist's article about Thailand.

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displa...atures_box_main

The title is self-explanatory: "Violence in Bangkok: No end in sight"

And that's the main problem right now! "No end in sight". And as history teaches us "it needs just two stupid guys to start a war but many good ones (or few very strong ones) to finish it". And at this point I don't see any strong guys out there.

[rabo]

read first, understand the series of posts and then reply :-) Yes violence sells but what I was telling is that the last hours the international media do not report on Thailand on the basis of violent pictures.

Sorry, must have got lost in translation. Sometimes it's difficult to understand exactly what people are trying to say...

no problem :-) it happens in the forums. Especially when many of us are not native speakers.

But the point is well taken, though when I checked with CNN they had a different picture, one of a black shirt guard sitting watching the city in flames, but CNN rotates their pictures and the one you saw was probably there too.

I think the western media have trouble digesting heavily armed insurgents mixed with old folk relaxing playing with kids. It just doesn't happen that way in the West.

When the Dusit was hit with 3 RPGs last night, someone reportedly showed one of the exploded shells to all the reporters hiding in the basement. Be interesting to see how that gets reported.

Edited May 17, 2010 by rabo

[Robby nz]

Where would the reds get weapons?

Try this for a good start http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/6-000-Guns-E...ai-t345203.html

[noahvail]

Hi guys,

I'm back after a 10 hour power failure, an 18 hour internet failure, and then a looong time catching up on this thread.

One thing I've noticed is that people were asking earlier how the international reporters could be so red-biased. I can't imagine very many international journalists speak Thai. Therefore, to interview, they would need interpreters.

I also can't imagine any free-lance interpreters willing to go into a war zone with reporters, some of whom do have reputations as adrenalin junkies and placing themselves in harm's way to get a story.

So, where did the interpreters come from? If the reporters spent lots of time behind army lines, would the army have supplied interpreters for them all? Or, if they spent lots of time behind the red lines, would the reds have supplied interpreters? If so, would it not be possible that the interpreters would put a spin on the answers to the reporters' question?

I know, a lot of ifs. But, IF the red shirts had supplied interpreters free of charge, wouldn't the reporters be reporting their spin?

So - anybody know where the interpreters came from?

Just a thought.

[haroldc]

We all know the Thai military has weapons, duh! We all know that the Thai military has factions who support the Reds, factions who support the yellows, and many other factions as well. The point is that a truly democratic leader would not agree to coagulate as many different factions of the military around innocent civilians in an urban environment. Abhisit was just plain stupid, or highly dishonest. He should have gone on national TV and announced that normally he would use the police for crowd dispersal but that he cannot trust the Thai police. Then, he could explain that the Thai military was in factions and he cannot use them either. Regrettably, the expensive handbag shops may have been closed a bit longer. Who cares?

...more bandwidth saved. This ignore isn't worth an explanatory comment.

[Thai at Heart]

AFP: "I stand with my countrymen in this terrible hour in our history," Thaksin said in a statement.

AFP: "The pictures that I have seen go beyond any nightmares that could have been envisaged." said Thaksin

AFP: "I have no choice but to state resolutely the need for all sides to step back from this terrible abyss." Said Thaksin

AFP: "Seek to begin a new, genuine and sincere dialogue between the parties," he said.

AFP "The present action of the government dishonour our history and will forever weaken our institutions and democracy." Said Thaksin.

now for some retail therapy as I've come over all emotional

Marie Claire team spotted REAL Thaksin Shinawatra at Louis Vuitton Champ Elysee on Sat May 15th

the man is as shallow as he is conniving - certainly looks like he is truly grieving.

Where is Kasit telling us that Thailand is doing everything it can to track him down and that he has been barred from everywhere in the world. Seems like if he is on the Champs Elysees that the Europeans really don't have too much of an issue with him being there at all.

[lilkitty]

Map showing new Red Shirt Rally Stage in Khlong Toei http://bit.ly/cBideG - 1000's of Reds there already! /via @richardBarrow

Is it me or is the army not really making any progress? Instead of just having a stage at Rajprasong, they now have 2 stages, another one set-up at Klong Toei, also with thousands of red shirts, probably also being fortified with bamboo sticks and tyres. It looks like the attempt to make them "smaller" has just "expanded" them.

[whybother]

They are not arresting anyone that leaves peacefully. They are giving them a free ride home.

The ones they catch being violent (attacking the army) are being put away if they are caught.

and i suppose the nearly 300 dead and hurting means nothing to you?

for those of you have been advocating a violent solution, events didnt quite follow your plan, did they?

you were hoping for a clinical, surgical strike on ratchaP that would leave only Reds with spears in their hands dead. in your silly fantasy land, no innocents would suffer.

and certainly you never DREAMED that instead of waiting for annhiliation that Thaksin would outsmart you, and attack first. which is is exaclty what he did in Din Daeng, Ratchaprop, Victory and most importantly Bon Kai/sathorn/klong toei.

the proponents of invading Ratchap werent just flat out wrong about innocents being spared. your entire strategy has been proven to upended.

Face it, Thaksin outsmarted you.

The proper strategy was and remains a general amensty, followed by elections, followed by a government seen as legitmate to all thais. if bush could bring in the sunni tribes, so can abhisit bring in the Reds.

Where did that come from? I am not advocating violence. I am hoping the red shirts go home. They have made their point (as far as anyone actually knows what their point is). They are trying to bring down a legitimately elected government using violence. And they try and say they are about democracy!!

It's very unfortunate that so many people have died and been injured. But that is NOT the fault of the government or the army.

The reds have been spouting violence since BEFORE the start of the protests. Each time that the government didn't react, the red shirts pushed a bit harder ... and kept on spouting violence.

After the red shirts stormed parliament and Thaicom, the government tried to shut them down using batons and riot shields. That's when the red shirts showed their true colours, with grenades and the armed black shirts.

Now, there are armed thugs attacking the army again. The leaders talk about negotiations, but the armed thugs continue.

IMO, the army isn't going in because of the women and children in Ratchaprasong, but with buildings burning down, and people trying to blow up gas tankers, the army are going to have to go in and deal with the violent protestors.

At some point it's going to get back to Ratchaprasong. The government have done EVERYTHING they can to get them out. They are making their own choice.

[animatic]

Red Shirt use BABY as human SHIELD.MP4

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

Please don't tell me you think a human shield is used to TAKE the bullets first

like a shield in a sword fight???

The point of using a Human Shield is to prevent an attack,

by playing on the humanity of your opponent to NOT attack,

BECAUSE the human shield is there.

It is a truly evil act.

You can abuse them completely, because they still have a heart...

Edited May 17, 2010 by animatic

[noahvail]

Ok, here's another:

Lots of question have been asked how it was that for a couple of days, no army personnel were killed, but red shirt protesters were killed.

I didn't see a post that said well, the red shirt protesters are out there in shorts and a t-shirt, while the army guys are out there in full kit - decent helmets (not the 360 baht Tesco eggshells), full flak jackets, and so on. So if an army guy gets hit in the flak jacket, he goes down, but isn't killed; and other than a fair amount of ache for a couple of days, he really isn't injured badly at all.

I don't know, of course...just another thought.

[jcbangkok]

Out of interest I ask a genuine question.

If 10,000 professional soldiers, totally unarmed, had entered that camp 4 days ago to arrest or shut it down what would have happened? Say there were 4,000 protesters of which most were peaceful. And lets assume that they were warned that 'unarmed' military were going to close the site.

Do you think it would have been closed?

Would lots of soldiers have been shot and maybe retreated?

Would it be a suicide mission?

Consider the fact authorities have not even gone into the red fortress yet.

Consider that the reds have announced MANY times they will fight to the death the army.

Consider the fact of what happened last month.

Consider the fact of how they are attacking armed soldiers now outside their fortress.

Consider the location where they are at and the fact that it is a FACT they are armed and that authorities are worried about the loss of life and property now with the prospect of going in there even though they have mass fire power.

Consider that the reds REFUSE TO VACATE regardless if the people asking or demanding have weapons or not.

Consider this video where a soldier is armed ...

I think you can now answer your own question.

[lilkitty]

AFP: "I stand with my countrymen in this terrible hour in our history," Thaksin said in a statement.

AFP: "The pictures that I have seen go beyond any nightmares that could have been envisaged." said Thaksin

AFP: "I have no choice but to state resolutely the need for all sides to step back from this terrible abyss." Said Thaksin

AFP: "Seek to begin a new, genuine and sincere dialogue between the parties," he said.

AFP "The present action of the government dishonour our history and will forever weaken our institutions and democracy." Said Thaksin.

now for some retail therapy as I've come over all emotional

Marie Claire team spotted REAL Thaksin Shinawatra at Louis Vuitton Champ Elysee on Sat May 15th

the man is as shallow as he is conniving - certainly looks like he is truly grieving.

Where is Kasit telling us that Thailand is doing everything it can to track him down and that he has been barred from everywhere in the world. Seems like if he is on the Champs Elysees that the Europeans really don't have too much of an issue with him being there at all.

Don't worry, I'm sure Kasit is summoning the French Ambassador as we type for a heavy spanking for allowing Thaksin to go for shopping in Paris. That will teach the French!

[lilkitty]

Ok, here's another:

Lots of question have been asked how it was that for a couple of days, no army personnel were killed, but red shirt protesters were killed.

I didn't see a post that said well, the red shirt protesters are out there in shorts and a t-shirt, while the army guys are out there in full kit - decent helmets (not the 360 baht Tesco eggshells), full flak jackets, and so on. So if an army guy gets hit in the flak jacket, he goes down, but isn't killed; and other than a fair amount of ache for a couple of days, he really isn't injured badly at all.

I don't know, of course...just another thought.

(Warning: Heavy sarcasm ahead)

You're absolutely wrong there have been absolutely no civilian casualties. Only army personnel have been killed so far. All the deaths are from the red shirts either shooting themselves, or the red shirts shooting the army. The army is taking the utmost care not to shoot any civilians, even though its pitch dark and they're shooting without seeing anything, they are still not hitting civilians, which is very admirable.

[Who, me ?]

Map showing new Red Shirt Rally Stage in Khlong Toei http://bit.ly/cBideG - 1000's of Reds there already! /via @richardBarrow

Is it me or is the army not really making any progress? Instead of just having a stage at Rajprasong, they now have 2 stages, another one set-up at Klong Toei, also with thousands of red shirts, probably also being fortified with bamboo sticks and tyres. It looks like the attempt to make them "smaller" has just "expanded" them.

Sadly, I have to agree with you

[lungmi]

Ever wonder where the Red-supporting posters on Thai Visa come from (and go to)?

They seem to come in groups, about 3 to 6 join within 2 days of each other, and they post frantically - each post stridently pro-Red, and the posters all use much the same phrasing and arguments, sometimes openly agreeing with each other. Then, after a few days, they seem to disappear. This pattern has happened about 5 times since mid-April.

Here's my theory. Ok, imagine a very rich man who's essentially bankrolling a demonstration in Bangkok (ok, you guessed who it is). He's seized by the idea that he's been cheated out of his power seat, but even more important (to him) that he's been cheated out of bazillions of baht. The power seat facilitated the massing of fortunes, but that's beside the point here.

So, he's got all this money and zeal, and he finds one or more English speakers who don't mind sitting in front of computers for several hours a day. Money for payment is no object. One adept writer could plausibly be sitting in front of two to four computers, with as many usernames, and just keep writing things that favor his employer. He's probably being coached, but that's also beside the point. And it doesn't have to be just Mr. Thaksin who's paying the piper (to play the tune), .....it could be any of his family or others he's close to. Actually, it's probably possible to log in with several names on one computer, I don't know.

You'll also notice, if you're watching this sort of thing, that most of the Red supporting posters currently online here, will probably be done posting in a day or two. Also, none of the suspects alluded to here have any personal info on their profile page.

Just a few thoughts.......

Right, crazy people cannot be crazy like this. We work hard to show some facts, we try to convince, some insult them. No reaction, they fart out the same. O.K., when I'm paid to post, I post, ...I follow my instructions.

[animatic]

Ok, here's another:

Lots of question have been asked how it was that for a couple of days, no army personnel were killed, but red shirt protesters were killed.

I didn't see a post that said well, the red shirt protesters are out there in shorts and a t-shirt, while the army guys are out there in full kit - decent helmets (not the 360 baht Tesco eggshells), full flak jackets, and so on. So if an army guy gets hit in the flak jacket, he goes down, but isn't killed; and other than a fair amount of ache for a couple of days, he really isn't injured badly at all.

I don't know, of course...just another thought.

2 things.

An airforce officer died today.

Yes the soldiers are much better protected,

plus they have snipers now looking for Ronin snipers,

so they are protrcting their vertical flanks much better.

Their tactics are greatly improved since April 10th.

They have a better idea what and who they are up against,

and have better strategy and tactics to neutralize the oppositions tactics.

So fewer deaths of soliders.

Tonight may reverse that trend somewhat.

A sationary unit is easier to guard than one on the move.

Plus if their snipers miss one red sniper he could do a lot of damage quickly

[TAWP]

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

OMG - did you just say that unless someone actually physically shots the baby it is not a human shield?

[lungmi]

The Army is a joke. Myanmar or Cambodia must be wondering how long it would take to take over Thailand. Either 1 or 2 days.

This is why we wait for Thaksin to take over Myanmar, in Cambodia he already lost the war.

[lilkitty]

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

OMG - did you just say that unless someone actually physically shots the baby it is not a human shield?

Sorry, should have said:

Nobody pointing a gun at the baby = baby not human shield.

I really hope you're not going to execute me for my mistake.

[jcbangkok]

Red Shirt use BABY as human SHIELD.MP4

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

Do you think at all before you post?

First, I didn't say anything in this post but the title of the video. So, what am I right about?

Second of all, do you have any idea what the term "human shield" means and what the purpose of a human shield is? Hint, click here

[jcbangkok]

Thai TV now showing numerous Red Shirts using deadly weapons ... on all channels

[lilkitty]

CRES: Sansern: Snipers in black were hiding on high floors of ChivaThai building in Rajprarop today. /via @tulsathit

Urgent: ThaiPBS Confirming the Cheewa Thai building is on fire. 13/14th floors on fire. Saw two guys trying to burn things around the area.

So the snipers set themselves on fire?

[jcbangkok]

Thai TV now showing red shirt who shot soldier after other reds pulled from truck

[Robby nz]

quote name='Tigs' post='3607577' date='2010-05-16 22:35:19']Well, anyone who speaks Thai or has a Thai wife needs to watch this!! If your wife watches it, get the kleenex ready!

Watch This!

(can anyone tell me how to embed youtube videos on this site?)

My wife, MIL, sisters etc, just watched it and all burst into sobbing tears. It is above politics and shows the real feelings of the normal Thai person as to what is happening in this country right now.

If anyone can give a better translation please do, but what I picked up was this. The guy picks up an award at a Thai TV awards show, and during the speech says something along the following lines. "This 'house' used to have lots of fighting, the family were never happy and fought about everything. Then along came our Father, he worked so hard to build a beautiful new 'House' for us, where we could all be happy and live together. As a young boy, I grew up in such a happy house and my Father loved us all and we all loved him so dearly. Now some members of our family are fighting for someone else and want to destroy our 'house', and hurt our Father and even take him away. Why? If you don't love our Father anymore, then just leave our House and let us be happy once again with him, we love him and we would all die for him"

All very emotional and a standing ovation. It is flying around the Thai social networking sites at the speed of light. If this is broadcast to the 'normal' red protestors they will all go home within 20 minutes of watching it.

Should be played all night from the reds stage, see how many are left in the morning

[tgw]

Thai TV now showing red shirt who shot soldier after other reds pulled from truck

I watched this video, it is revolting!

The soldier pulled from the truck was unarmed, removed his hat, waied everyone before being beaten and shot!!!

Explain that, Lilkitty!

[rogerdee123]

Ok, here's another:

Lots of question have been asked how it was that for a couple of days, no army personnel were killed, but red shirt protesters were killed.

I didn't see a post that said well, the red shirt protesters are out there in shorts and a t-shirt, while the army guys are out there in full kit - decent helmets (not the 360 baht Tesco eggshells), full flak jackets, and so on. So if an army guy gets hit in the flak jacket, he goes down, but isn't killed; and other than a fair amount of ache for a couple of days, he really isn't injured badly at all.

I don't know, of course...just another thought.

Several soldiers were killed in April by the Reds and the Black Shirts ..... they learned their lessons then and are smarter now. Someone please tell us the number of soldiers killed since this "protest" began. I'm getting tired of hearing that only civilians have been killed.

As other posters have pointed out, if the military really was intent on shooting red shirts, there would be a hel_l of a lot more bodies.

Given what happened on April 10th and what we do know about Black shirts and armed red shirts, the deaths we have seen in the past few days are undoubtedly not ALL from military held weapons.

[jcbangkok]

CRES: Sansern: Snipers in black were hiding on high floors of ChivaThai building in Rajprarop today. /via @tulsathit

Urgent: ThaiPBS Confirming the Cheewa Thai building is on fire. 13/14th floors on fire. Saw two guys trying to burn things around the area.

So the snipers set themselves on fire?

I guess this answers my previous question to you.

added to ignore list

[Jerrytheyoung]

I want to explain why I joined the forum and why I am posting here. I try to learn more about the political situation and I try to have various sources of information. I follow the international news channels (usually in the Internet because I do not like TV) everyday, I but both the Nation and Bangkok Post, I follow some blogs of people I trust and I talk to my colleagues in the office. I wanted also to follow a forum of people that they live here and i found the thaivisa. ......

Sir,

I do not know how long you have been in Thailand. Certainly on this forum there are people with an in-depth knowledge of the situations and they do know the roots of the current events. Also numerous Thai friends are posting on this forum. you can notice we have different opinions, we learnalso from each other.

We cannot answer you simply because it will take hours -even days- to explain the accumulated factors driving to those historical moments. I will just give you some very rough axis of researches.

First the Thai Culture (Asian/ Budhist) very different from the Christian/ western, with different appreciation like value of a life...

secondly the Thai History, including the construction of modern Thailand through an unification process... the exchange of territories which explain some details relative to Issan. The Chinese immigration and influence on Thai affairs....

Thirdly the Institutions about which we cannot talk on this forum

Quaterly some roots of the present conflict can be located in the aftermaith of the Vietnam war (Militias, weaponry smuggling)

......

So the situation is far more complex than it may appear in the International press.

Work hard......

[jcbangkok]

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

OMG - did you just say that unless someone actually physically shots the baby it is not a human shield?

Prediction ... you will soon be using the Ignore feature.

[lilkitty]

Thai TV now showing red shirt who shot soldier after other reds pulled from truck

I watched this video, it is revolting!

The soldier pulled from the truck was unarmed, removed his hat, waied everyone before being beaten and shot!!!

Explain that, Lilkitty!

Was he really shot? There was no army death or injury reported in the area of Din Daeng on the day this happened. This didn't happen today or yesterday. The video is several days old. Why didn't the army, who are always keeping everyone up to date with army deaths and injuries, report this? In my opinion, the soldier simply "played dead". That's just my opinion. Please feel free to give an explanation though on why the army didn't report this until today. The video has been on YouTube for nearly a week.

Edited May 17, 2010 by lilkitty