Thirty-five Dead In Worsening Bangkok Violence

[jayjay0]

35 dead.

1 This figure means nothing to the red shirts. How many of the leaders are left in town.

2 They have demonstrated that the only thing acceptable to them is there way.

3 They show no lack of concern for the people unable to go to work and make a living.

4 They deprive others of a living in order to get there way and make a living.

5 Te Government has offered to cut 0ne year off the time for a election. They have offered nothing.

6 They take the posiyion of we are OK do as we tell you and we will do what we want.

7 Will 3,500 dead be enough for these ego maniacs?

[Arkady]

Letter in today's Nation - not written by me.

The BBC is giving us a headache: Let's fix it!

The BBC's Chris Hogg was asked to explain why the reds continue to fight so hard. "...It's not pleasant camping out in the road..." was part of his stumbling, shallow reasoning - further jaw-sagging nonsense!

I know of many other people who are up in arms about the BBC's

coverage of recent events in Bangkok, coverage that at times may have hampered a satisfactory conclusion to this awful business.

I am attempting to organise an informal petition, that is not hi-tech, as a means of pointing out the BBC's journalistic distortions and failures. If you want to be involved, email me at [email protected].

Include your name, general location, and in one or two sentences explain your gripe. I will collate the results and forward them to the director-general of the BBC. I will not forward your email address.

John Shepherd

Edited May 17, 2010 by Arkady

[dobadoy]

Federico Ferrara

On Sunday 16th May 2010, @KhiKwai said:

reply

Many people are wondering/speculating about the way a liberal-democratic Western government would be responding to a situation like the one presently unfolding on the streets of Bangkok.

To get a perspective on this issue, the most extreme example I can think of is the Los Angeles riots in 1992.

This example is "extreme" because the LA rioters were far more unruly and violent than the Red Shirts have been over the past two months. During the LA riots, looting and torching of buildings was widespread (we have seen very little of this in Bangkok). So were armed attacks by mobs on civilians (mostly white and Korean) as well as gun fights between shopkeepers and mobs of assailants (again, very little of this has been seen here). Finally, the Red Shirts have engaged in very little property destruction (Central World would not have survived the first hour of the LA Riots); most of it has been incidental to fighting against the army's advance.

How did the American government react to the LA Riots? The short answer is "nothing like the Thai government has in this instance." See this time-line of the events for an overview: http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/920429_...oursofChaos.htm. Plenty of other information, video, etc is widely available on the internet.

After the LAPD proved unable to deal with the situation, the state government mobilized about 4000 National Guard troops, while the federal government sent in about the same number of army troops shortly thereafter. Order was re-established in just a couple of days, but in large part thanks to crowd control techniques as opposed to shooting indiscriminately on the protesters.

The final toll of the riots, which lasted 6 days, was officially 54 deaths. However, it is noteworthy that the overwhelming majority of the people killed were killed by the demonstrators themselves (some voluntarily, some accidentally in fires/stampedes, etc.). There were some shootings carried out by the army/police in somewhat suspicious circumstances, but the army/police were not responsible for more than a handful of deaths.

It might be worth reflecting on why the American government was able to bring a much worse situation under control so quickly and without massacring dozens of people. Besides the issue of professionalism, I think that the answer has to do with the legitimacy of the government. Most established democracies enjoy what is known as "power without force" --- that is, they can maintain order with relatively little violence. Thailand's government is more of a case of "force without power" --- that is, it isn't able to control its citizenry in spite of a massive show of force.

Either way, the bottom line is that if you think that any Western government would have acted the same way the Thai government is acting today, you should think again.

He makes some interesting points, but glosses over significant details.

First, the LA riots were sparked by police injustice and not directed against the government per se. They largely 'blew out' because the riots were not politically motivated, organised or financed.

Second, he notes the professionalism of the US forces but does not explain why that matters so much. The US forces were not only professional, but also were not compromised by revolt or refusal to obey their orders from within by those whose loyalty lies in their own position being advantaged by a change of government.

Third, the state of California carries the death penalty.

The analogy between the LA riots and what is happening in Bangkok is misplaced. If you don't think so, consider what happened after someone did attack the US government in Sept 11, 2001.

[noname135]

A couple of weeks back while everybody was waxing vitriolic about the intrusion on their little cabbage patch by bugs wearing red shirts, I did point out that those bugs and their sympathisers amount to a little over 65% of the Thai population and that excludes the Monks.

The unfortunate decision of the self appointed elite to pursue a military solution after dabbling briefly with the only sensible option (for them that is) of establishing some form of government of national unity, is tantamount to offering Thaksin and the protestors the moral high ground.

How long are the protestors going to remain unarmed and unprotected while the military play hide and seek with live rounds? How long will it be before the insurgency becomes ten times or a hundred times larger than at present? At the moment it is hardly under control.

It is really annoying that the "string pullers" behind the regime are so insensitive they have failed to read the runes. Don't they realise what they have done? The best thing for Abhisit right now is to do a runner and leave these people to their fate. I am sure he has been forced kicking and screaming into this untenable situation as his previous record has been remarkably unsullied.

The most amusing comment so far concerns rejection of UN arbitration out of hand. Why??? Sorry, say that again!

What a joke, where did you pull 65% out od?? Let me guess it is where the sun doesn't shine. Reminds me of back in the day when the Quebec French thought they were so hard done by and were even using terrorist tactics to get their way. They claimed that 100% of the French society in Quebec wanted to separate from Canada. Well after several refferendums they failed to achieve anything close to a majority vote. They only way they can get 60% of the rural north to vote for the reds cause is to pay them to vote that way!!!

when you don't know what you are talking about, better stay quiet!

if you would ever have been in any rural area, especially in the north, then you would know, that regardless of what election it is, ALL THOSE TRYING TO BE ELCTED pay whatever much they can

to get elected - it's not good, and it's not correct, but it is thai reality !

Nice how you assume you are the only one that knows what he is talking about. First of all Thailand is not the only place that pays for votes, it happens in the States too. My point is that 65% of the northern rurals do not support the reds as in the last election they only received 40% of the vote even with vote buying. So to say that most of the north love the reds and this illegal action they have taken is ridiculous. My gf is from Ubon and neither she nor her family support the reds or their terrorist ways.

oh yes, and since the (know called) reds won a majority in the last election, but according to an expert like you only 40% in the north, I guess you mean they won about 80% in the south ???

maybe you find some time to look at the results from the last election??

when you are talking of terrorist ways, may I remind you the yellow rally not so long ago, where the government house was stormed and devastated, which damages over 200 mill bt, and the seizure of the airports, where one of the leaders made a TV-interview declaring "it was fun to take the airport",

but this was certainly no terrorist act, since nowadays he is Foreign Minister!

good awakening and good day, Sir

[animatic]

Thats why real photographers take pictures using raw format, you cannot photoshop raw files but you can do miracles with jpg

But RAW format doesn't go online, so eventually it is JPEG and twistable.

[whybother]

This is a military/military backed government. Armies fight wars, if not with other countries then their own people will do. It's no surprise then that we are where we are. And this also explains why the red shirts have not been cleared, it suits those that are in control.

Every government in the world is backed by the army from protesting insurgent thugs. Otherwise they wouldn't be the government.

That's why Thaksin wants to control the upcoming army reshuffle. He had control of all the other "checks and balance" offices. Once he has control of the army, that is his dictatorship cemented.

edit: and the reds have their own "Ronin" army backing them.

Edited May 17, 2010 by whybother

[Insight]

What I don't understand is the burning of tyres. Don't they know what it does to the environment? They're hurting themselves as much as the other side.

Also, why don't the military simply block the trucks with the tyres when they arrive. It's not like they're being smuggled in, lots of footage showing them driving in quite openly with the tyres in pickups and on motorbikes.

Blocks the visibility making it more difficult for the protesters (and black shirts) to be spotted.

[roisoleil]

The so-called "Joseph Solution" is nothing more than a reply post/rant on a social website attributed to a Canadian named "Joseph". It's no solution and its essentially an exercise in rich bashing that has become popular in North America of late. Anyway for those interested I copy and paste it for your entertainment but I don't really see how it adds anything constructive to the serious political reflection/debate & reconciliation Thailand needs to engage in now:

"While I agree violence should be avoided, thinking 'an election' would lead to a cure all is too simplistic. In sometimes better political climates, gang warfare elections have been going on for 80 years. How would the next election and/or the 19th constitution, now, lead to harmony?

Everybody concentrates on the crocodile fighting and don't look to the Solution, a controlled draining of the Swamp!

Whether it is oil fields in the midEast, lucrative poppy fields in Afghanistan, or seats of corruption in Thailand, the Nabobs, the corrupt imperialists, on all sides, can always brainwash, good, honest, well intentioned street people to rush to the front lines, believing they are performing a 'patriotic duty', when they are really protecting millionaires' and billionaires' bank accounts.

*** I could put you in a room where you cannot see who I was questioning about fair elections and getting rid of corruption. Out of 100 red shirts and 100 yellow shirts you would NOT be able to tell me which respondents were wearing what color. They should all put on White shirts

*** The people are the same on both sides, the power brokers are the same on both sides.

DON"T TRUST ANYONE WHO FLYS FIRST CLASS OR OWNS PRIVATE JETS!!!

The elections for the next 100 years will be like the ones of the last 80, my friend, an election, under the broken system will NOT accomplish anything.

The Joseph Solution does provide for fair elections, stable 4 year terms and eliminates Corruption. Voila! Come and get it."

[whybother]

Nice how you assume you are the only one that knows what he is talking about. First of all Thailand is not the only place that pays for votes, it happens in the States too. My point is that 65% of the northern rurals do not support the reds as in the last election they only received 40% of the vote even with vote buying. So to say that most of the north love the reds and this illegal action they have taken is ridiculous. My gf is from Ubon and neither she nor her family support the reds or their terrorist ways.

oh yes, and since the (know called) reds won a majority in the last election, but according to an expert like you only 40% in the north, I guess you mean they won about 80% in the south ???

maybe you find some time to look at the results from the last election??

when you are talking of terrorist ways, may I remind you the yellow rally not so long ago, where the government house was stormed and devastated, which damages over 200 mill bt, and the seizure of the airports, where one of the leaders made a TV-interview declaring "it was fun to take the airport",

but this was certainly no terrorist act, since nowadays he is Foreign Minister!

good awakening and good day, Sir

But the reds DID NOT win a majority in the last election. Have you found the time to look at the results of the last election?

[noname135]

The analogy between the LA riots and what is happening in Bangkok is misplaced. If you don't think so, consider what happened after someone did attack the US government in Sept 11, 2001.

thank you for not saying "someone from outside" - although this is not common knowledge in the US

[Sisaketmike]

"No governments allow any organisations to intervene in their internal affairs," spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said.

<<< WHAT????

The whole pitch patch political system in Thailand is a Made in Europe, corruption susceptible pile of garbage that has been bubbling and fomenting for 80 years. The Khana Ratsadon, 'the fathers of democracy' were squabbling among themselves before they even came back from France and England.

Saying Thailand has never been interfered with is like saying a mama san is a virgin! FCS!!!

The Joseph Solution is a partly made in Canada and partly "Made in Thailand" political design which 95% of Thais would agree to!

It does NOT require the UN, but to follow the agenda of The Joseph Plan to bring about Stability and Peace, with the elimination of Corruption.

Hello . Do you have a web link to the Joseph solution ?

What is it ?

Is the the Joseph Stalin solution.

I thought it was ... marry a virgin who will give birth to the Messiah

Joseph Stalin QuotesDeath is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem. Joseph Stalin Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.

[gemini81]

All the poor innocent protestors??? They declare war on the Government, try to impose their will on the rest of the country (us that democracy???). They are using old women and children as human shields, they are every bit as bad as the Taliban and that lot. I am sure if you ask the Taliban they will say they are fighting for the majority of the population too.

Where did you get this photo? After all, the BBC and CNN reporters, all on the ground, have said they have never seen the red shirts with guns??

I hate to say it, and I will ask my son who is a photo shop expert...but these guns do look a bit photo shopped in...

asking again, where did you get this photo?? what is the source?

Do these look photoshopped?

viewed 'em many times, also the one with the soldiers pulled from their vehicle, and one shot, and one man fleeing with a good. good case of damning evidence on the army/government's side.

the videos were analyzed in free TV (channel 11).

[jfchandler]

I asked this same question on Twitter yesterday, because I too couldn't figure out what the point was... Got a couple answers from local folks here involved...

1. Block the vision of nearby troops. 2. create heat/hot air to cause any tear gas being used to rise up off the ground level. 3. create a more difficult blockade to breach...

I guess I understand those points... But as far as I can tell, the Reds are burning their tire blockades at random.... not just when directly under attack or when the military is using tear gas....

What I don't understand is the burning of tyres. Don't they know what it does to the environment? They're hurting themselves as much as the other side.

Also, why don't the military simply block the trucks with the tyres when they arrive. It's not like they're being smuggled in, lots of footage showing them driving in quite openly with the tyres in pickups and on motorbikes.

[dobadoy]

[in Britain] The A[r]my is never used in controlling or dispersing a crow[d]. No snipers either.

Don't hold the UK or the US up as governments who do things differently. They use what force they need to when they need to, and if the history of the British Empire is anything to go by, they would have acted far more ruthlessly than the current Thai government. Look what they did in India when the protesters (Gandhi etc) really WERE peaceful, and not just pretending to be like the red shirts. The British Army shot nearly 400 unarmed protesters and injured over 1200 in a single incident at Amritsar.

Maybe you didn't live through the more recent Northern Ireland troubles either? Or perhaps if you did you had about as much understanding of it as you do the current Thai ones. You probably don't know much about the Miners' strike in Britian in the early 1980s, when soldiers were dressed in numberless police uniforms and were used to savagely beat ordinary working people protesting for their right to a living.

Edited May 17, 2010 by dobadoy

[noname135]

Nice how you assume you are the only one that knows what he is talking about. First of all Thailand is not the only place that pays for votes, it happens in the States too. My point is that 65% of the northern rurals do not support the reds as in the last election they only received 40% of the vote even with vote buying. So to say that most of the north love the reds and this illegal action they have taken is ridiculous. My gf is from Ubon and neither she nor her family support the reds or their terrorist ways.

oh yes, and since the (know called) reds won a majority in the last election, but according to an expert like you only 40% in the north, I guess you mean they won about 80% in the south ???

maybe you find some time to look at the results from the last election??

when you are talking of terrorist ways, may I remind you the yellow rally not so long ago, where the government house was stormed and devastated, which damages over 200 mill bt, and the seizure of the airports, where one of the leaders made a TV-interview declaring "it was fun to take the airport",

but this was certainly no terrorist act, since nowadays he is Foreign Minister!

good awakening and good day, Sir

But the reds DID NOT win a majority in the last election. Have you found the time to look at the results of the last election?

they certainly did win and therefore formed the government, with mr Somsak as PM, then their party was again dissolved in a similar way to the TRT, they again formed the government with the new party and then the PM was ousted for hosting a cooking show on TV while being PM, after that one group led by Mr. Newin Chidchob broke away and formed a coalition with the minority Ddemocrats.

just as a reminder : when the TRT was dissolved, the case was pending aginst the democrat party too, and even the then Coup leader wanted both parties to be dissolved, but that was not allowed to be.

[sbk]

Off topic posts have been deleted, this is not about the Taliban, the UK or th US so lets keep it on topic and lets keep it civil.

As stated earlier warnings and suspensions are being handed out to those who cannot moderate their tone and their behavior by themselves.

[mommysboy]

This is a military/military backed government. Armies fight wars, if not with other countries then their own people will do. It's no surprise then that we are where we are. And this also explains why the red shirts have not been cleared, it suits those that are in control.

Every government in the world is backed by the army from protesting insurgent thugs. Otherwise they wouldn't be the government.

That's why Thaksin wants to control the upcoming army reshuffle. He had control of all the other "checks and balance" offices. Once he has control of the army, that is his dictatorship cemented.

edit: and the reds have their own "Ronin" army backing them.

The point is the military is the Govt.

Or at least the Govt. can not control the military.

[whybother]

Nice how you assume you are the only one that knows what he is talking about. First of all Thailand is not the only place that pays for votes, it happens in the States too. My point is that 65% of the northern rurals do not support the reds as in the last election they only received 40% of the vote even with vote buying. So to say that most of the north love the reds and this illegal action they have taken is ridiculous. My gf is from Ubon and neither she nor her family support the reds or their terrorist ways.

oh yes, and since the (know called) reds won a majority in the last election, but according to an expert like you only 40% in the north, I guess you mean they won about 80% in the south ???

maybe you find some time to look at the results from the last election??

when you are talking of terrorist ways, may I remind you the yellow rally not so long ago, where the government house was stormed and devastated, which damages over 200 mill bt, and the seizure of the airports, where one of the leaders made a TV-interview declaring "it was fun to take the airport",

but this was certainly no terrorist act, since nowadays he is Foreign Minister!

good awakening and good day, Sir

But the reds DID NOT win a majority in the last election. Have you found the time to look at the results of the last election?

they certainly did win and therefore formed the government, with mr Somsak as PM, then their party was again dissolved in a similar way to the TRT, they again formed the government with the new party and then the PM was ousted for hosting a cooking show on TV while being PM, after that one group led by Mr. Newin Chidchob broke away and formed a coalition with the minority Ddemocrats.

just as a reminder : when the TRT was dissolved, the case was pending aginst the democrat party too, and even the then Coup leader wanted both parties to be dissolved, but that was not allowed to be.

That just shows how ignorant and brainwashed that you are.

The PPP did NOT win a majority of seats in the last election. They were short of the majority to form government by themselves. Both the PPP and Democrats got about 40% of the vote, but the PPP won more seats. The PPP used a coalition of smaller parties to gain a majority and elect Samak as PM.

Then Samak was stripped of being PM because he had two paid jobs (don't you think a PM should just concentrate on being PM) and lied in court. He could have been elected PM again the very next day, but the PPP and the smaller parties elected Somchai (Thaksin's brother in law).

The the PPP executive (not all MPs) were banned after being caught on video committing electoral fraud. By-elections were held to replace banned MPs. The PTP (new PPP) won very few of the by-elections (it seems the people were a bit sick of them).

At this point, most of the ex-PPP MPs went to the new PTP, but Newin's group formed a new party called the BJT.

Newin's group and some other smaller parties formed a coalition with the Democrats, giving them the majority of MPs to vote Abhisit as PM.

Edited May 17, 2010 by whybother

[mommysboy]

<BR>

This is a military/military backed government. Armies fight wars, if not with other countries then their own people will do. It's no surprise then that we are where we are. And this also explains why the red shirts have not been cleared, it suits those that are in control.

<BR>Every government in the world is backed by the army from protesting insurgent thugs. Otherwise they wouldn't be the government.<BR><BR>That's why Thaksin wants to control the upcoming army reshuffle. He had control of all the other "checks and balance" offices. Once he has control of the army, that is his dictatorship cemented.<BR><BR>edit: and the reds have their own "Ronin" army backing them.<BR>

<BR><BR><BR>The point is the military <STRONG>is </STRONG>the Govt.<BR><BR>Or at least the Govt. can not control the military.<BR>

[dobadoy]

Letter in today's Nation - not written by me.

The BBC is giving us a headache: Let's fix it!

The BBC's Chris Hogg was asked to explain why the reds continue to fight so hard. "...It's not pleasant camping out in the road..." was part of his stumbling, shallow reasoning - further jaw-sagging nonsense!

I know of many other people who are up in arms about the BBC's

coverage of recent events in Bangkok, coverage that at times may have hampered a satisfactory conclusion to this awful business.

I am attempting to organise an informal petition, that is not hi-tech, as a means of pointing out the BBC's journalistic distortions and failures. If you want to be involved, email me at [email protected].

Include your name, general location, and in one or two sentences explain your gripe. I will collate the results and forward them to the director-general of the BBC. I will not forward your email address.

John Shepherd

I won't be joining your petition but I will be writing to them myself. I think masses of people who are prepared to take the time and trouble to complain personally achieves far more than a petition, but since I know a lot of people are disappointed in the BBC but probably not enough to write to them personally, I still think your idea is a good one.

In short, what I will be saying to the BBC is that they have completely failed to represent a fair and accurate account of the background to this situation, and have misrepresented the current violence as some kind of 'the poor vs gov't' nonsense. Either they are ignorant of the level of organisation behind this protest or more likely, it doesn't fit their theme of 'underdog' versus 'authority' that plays so well to their slightly left-of-centre ethos.

More importantly (to them, I hope), I'll have to say that after having BBC World as my homepage for as long as I've been an expat (7 years), I have now been 'awakened' to how flawed they are. How can I trust what they say about places of which I have no local knowledge and rely on them for balanced and accurate reporting, having seen how badly they have portrayed the Thai situation? Fortunately, I have found Al Jazeera's English news to be far superior, and it is they that shall now be my prime source of international news.

Goodbye Beeb, shame on you and shame on me to have blindly trusted you for so long.

[roisoleil]

I am shocked at how outright dismissive so may posters on this forum are of the red shirts' grievances and the manner in which they are portrayed so as to validate your dismissve attitudes.

1) The Red Shirts are not composed solely of rural poor from the Northern Provinces, they happen to include a broad mix of BKK working poor and the mere fact that there continued presence in the city is irksome does not mean they are w/o BKK representation.

2) They are poor and may be uneducated but they are human, not mindless sheep, so even if their leaders are elites who have gone into hiding (in Thaksin's case exile) credit them with the intelligence of knowing that they are standing up for better conditins for themselves, just as you are when you rant they they should pack it in so your life can just "go back to normal" b/c remember their normal is &lt;deleted&gt; and maybe just maybe they want to upgrade from &lt;deleted&gt; to a little bit of fun.

3) Criticize their tactics but remember if you are a rich farang chances are you are rich as a result of the bloody colonial inheritance bequeathed to you by our forefathers who would have had no qualms with acting on either side of this matter (from organizing a revolution e.g. USA to bloodily suppressing same e.g. UK/France/Spain you name it)

[jayjay0]

A couple of weeks back while everybody was waxing vitriolic about the intrusion on their little cabbage patch by bugs wearing red shirts, I did point out that those bugs and their sympathisers amount to a little over 65% of the Thai population and that excludes the Monks.

The unfortunate decision of the self appointed elite to pursue a military solution after dabbling briefly with the only sensible option (for them that is) of establishing some form of government of national unity, is tantamount to offering Thaksin and the protestors the moral high ground.

How long are the protestors going to remain unarmed and unprotected while the military play hide and seek with live rounds? How long will it be before the insurgency becomes ten times or a hundred times larger than at present? At the moment it is hardly under control.

It is really annoying that the "string pullers" behind the regime are so insensitive they have failed to read the runes. Don't they realise what they have done? The best thing for Abhisit right now is to do a runner and leave these people to their fate. I am sure he has been forced kicking and screaming into this untenable situation as his previous record has been remarkably unsullied.

The most amusing comment so far concerns rejection of UN arbitration out of hand. Why??? Sorry, say that again!

These bugs amount to less than 0.1% of the population. Their sympathisers amount to maybe 20% of the population at a stretch. You are assuming that all the poor sympathise with them, and that is clearly not true.

They are clearly armed (as shown in plenty of photos and videos, a couple posted above).

The red leaders have been talking about a million protestors on many occasions, and on their best day got about 100,000.

There has been very little protest outside of Bangkok, except for some thugs in the red stronghold.

I think it is the "string puller" behind the reds that has failed to read the runes, and failed to hand out enough cash.

And that 100,000 was for a peaceful demonstration. If they wanted to really support them why are they not here now.

Sounds like less than 10% of the original protesters support the red shirts now. You really got to wonder about the ones that supported them and stayed home. My guess they have less than 10% support now.

Statistics tell us that 10% of the population Has severe problems with alcohol and drugs and that dosent count the mentally challenged. Would the red shirts be able to even put up one qualified person to run for office.

[whybother]

This is a military/military backed government. Armies fight wars, if not with other countries then their own people will do. It's no surprise then that we are where we are. And this also explains why the red shirts have not been cleared, it suits those that are in control.

Every government in the world is backed by the army from protesting insurgent thugs. Otherwise they wouldn't be the government.

That's why Thaksin wants to control the upcoming army reshuffle. He had control of all the other "checks and balance" offices. Once he has control of the army, that is his dictatorship cemented.

edit: and the reds have their own "Ronin" army backing them.

The point is the military is the Govt.

Or at least the Govt. can not control the military.

There are too many generals involved in politics in Thailand - on BOTH sides of the fence.

But if the military were the government, there would have been a coup already.

What makes you think the military are not doing exactly what they are told to do? Anupong doesn't want blood on his hands in his last months as the leader of the army. Abhisit knows that shutting down the protests too early would have just shifted the problem elsewhere. They have given every oppotunity for the protestors to get out.

The reds know they have lost the battle (since their hospital adventure) and now have nothing to lose.

[whybother]

I am shocked at how outright dismissive so may posters on this forum are of the red shirts' grievances and the manner in which they are portrayed so as to validate your dismissve attitudes.

1) The Red Shirts are not composed solely of rural poor from the Northern Provinces, they happen to include a broad mix of BKK working poor and the mere fact that there continued presence in the city is irksome does not mean they are w/o BKK representation.

2) They are poor and may be uneducated but they are human, not mindless sheep, so even if their leaders are elites who have gone into hiding (in Thaksin's case exile) credit them with the intelligence of knowing that they are standing up for better conditins for themselves, just as you are when you rant they they should pack it in so your life can just "go back to normal" b/c remember their normal is &lt;deleted&gt; and maybe just maybe they want to upgrade from &lt;deleted&gt; to a little bit of fun.

3) Criticize their tactics but remember if you are a rich farang chances are you are rich as a result of the bloody colonial inheritance bequeathed to you by our forefathers who would have had no qualms with acting on either side of this matter (from organizing a revolution e.g. USA to bloodily suppressing same e.g. UK/France/Spain you name it)

We're not dismissive of the *claimed* grievences of the red shirts.

Most of us just don't believe that they are the real aims.

What are the reds solutions to their *claimed* grievences? They don't have any. They just want to be in power.

[Netfan]

I am shocked at how outright dismissive so may posters on this forum are of the red shirts' grievances and the manner in which they are portrayed so as to validate your dismissve attitudes.

1) The Red Shirts are not composed solely of rural poor from the Northern Provinces, they happen to include a broad mix of BKK working poor and the mere fact that there continued presence in the city is irksome does not mean they are w/o BKK representation.

2) They are poor and may be uneducated but they are human, not mindless sheep, so even if their leaders are elites who have gone into hiding (in Thaksin's case exile) credit them with the intelligence of knowing that they are standing up for better conditins for themselves, just as you are when you rant they they should pack it in so your life can just "go back to normal" b/c remember their normal is &lt;deleted&gt; and maybe just maybe they want to upgrade from &lt;deleted&gt; to a little bit of fun.

3) Criticize their tactics but remember if you are a rich farang chances are you are rich as a result of the bloody colonial inheritance bequeathed to you by our forefathers who would have had no qualms with acting on either side of this matter (from organizing a revolution e.g. USA to bloodily suppressing same e.g. UK/France/Spain you name it)

You obviously have not done your homework. Find one post where anyone who does not support the reds / Thaksin says the poor of Isaan do not have legitimate grievences. Many of the protesters are poor and uneducated, and they are willing to believe anything the Red leaders tell them. Ask them what democracy is - they don't have a clue. If the support in BKK is so strong, why have the numbers of protesters been falling so fast? Trying to paint the anti-reds on the forum as uncaring colonialists is BS - an easy way out of trying to defend what has become an undefendable movement.

[Arkady]

[in Britain] The A[r]my is never used in controlling or dispersing a crow[d]. No snipers either.

Don't hold the UK or the US up as governments who do things differently. They use what force they need to when they need to, and if the history of the British Empire is anything to go by, they would have acted far more ruthlessly than the current Thai government. Look what they did in India when the protesters (Gandhi etc) really WERE peaceful, and not just pretending to be like the red shirts. The British Army shot nearly 400 unarmed protesters and injured over 1200 in a single incident at Amritsar.

Maybe you didn't live through the more recent Northern Ireland troubles either? Or perhaps if you did you had about as much understanding of it as you do the current Thai ones. You probably don't know much about the Miners' strike in Britian in the early 1980s, when soldiers were dressed in numberless police uniforms and were used to savagely beat ordinary working people protesting for their right to a living.

The British quashed the 1916 Easter Rising by bombarding the Irish rebels from a naval warship, not caring that they destroyed a portion of the centre of Dublin. The ring leaders were tried and convicted for treason without defence or right of appeal under martial law by a military tribunal and executed by firing squad four days later without any prior announcement even to the families. One of them was shot sitting down because he couldn't stand due to injuries sustained in the battle. This was the incident that created mass support for the independence movement, as the Irish were previously indifferent or pro-British. And don't forget that the Black and Tans burned the city of Cork to the ground. Winston Churchill, as minister for war, refused to prosecute any one as he said it would have been too demoralising for the security forces. The Americans fire bombed the densely populated slum area of Chorillo in Panama City as part of their tactical plan to invade Panama and capture Noriega, because it was next to the HQ of the Panamian Defense Force, causing many needless civilian deaths and many more homeless poor families.

I hope the Thai army will act with more restraint.

[noname135]

We're not dismissive of the *claimed* grievences of the red shirts.

Most of us just don't believe that they are the real aims.

What are the reds solutions to their *claimed* grievences? They don't have any. They just want to be in power.

'why bother' with your comments, unless you are talking for all of us, as you suggest by talking in plural ??

the "reds" have no clue what their leaders are aiming for, as you don't appear to have either

they have been told to fight for democracy and equal rights, and they are getting paid for doing it.

unfortunately that's not the real issue, and even the government has not realized yet, what the opposition really wants - they don't want to negotiate, they don't want to get out, they want total chaos and then a new form of democracy!

[animatic]

they certainly did win and therefore formed the government, with mr Somsak as PM, then their party was again dissolved in a similar way to the TRT, they again formed the government with the new party and then the PM was ousted for hosting a cooking show on TV while being PM, after that one group led by Mr. Newin Chidchob broke away and formed a coalition with the minority Ddemocrats.

just as a reminder : when the TRT was dissolved, the case was pending aginst the democrat party too, and even the then Coup leader wanted both parties to be dissolved, but that was not allowed to be.

Please try to have a clue about what you are talking about

Lets see howmany wrong 'facts'.

The PPP had the largest MINORITY so had first chance to dreate a COALITION.

But Samaks party was caught egregiously cheating during that election...

It was Samak not Somsak, that's a different fellow.

BEFORE PPP was disolved Samak was convicted :

'Conflict of Interest' under the constitutional laws

AND 'Perjury' AKA lieing in court That cause his removal as OM... for ONE day.

But just as he was about to be REINSTATED AS PM...Thaksin stepped in a vetoed it from London.

Thaksin had his brother-in-law, husband of banned TRT MP Yowawopa* Shinawatra Wongsuwat

installed as PPP headman and PM, likely controled by his dominant wife; No mandate built vote of the people involved.

Somchai Wongsuwat, not Somsak or Samak..... seems you can't possibly live here...

During his time in office NO LEGISLATION occured. He did totally miss the world financial collapse

while trying to unsuccessfully re-write the constitution to get Thaksin and the TRT 111 a free pass.

Working against the ticking clock of a solid prosecution of PPP for election fraud.

Then under pressure to clear PAD protesters from the airport the PPP dissolution decision was advanced 2 weeks or so,

ostenisbly so HRM could have a nice birthday, but the decisions would have been the same in 2 weeks.

In contrast to Reds today, PAD went home immediately, no need to hang around,

because their reason to protest no longer existed; the attempt to re-write the constitution

to give Thaksin a free pass and get out of jail legislation.

After that the PPP caretaker PM... did NOT call for a NEW VOTE... this was a PPP political calculation, that they lost.

This allowed, during parliamentary voting for a new PM, for some factions including Newins Firends

to entertain better offers, they took them, a vote was held, and PPP lost....

they COULD have had a fresh vote, but they thought that they had bought off the departing parties,

and they were wrong.

The departing parties joined a slightly more minority Democrats and got a true majority coalition,

whichs trumped the larger MINORITY PPP and it's coalition, which moved it's MP's top PTP

and still held a large share of seats. Red voters still represented in Parliament by 223 PTP heads, by the way.

And lastly the current case against the Dems was not even filed till last year by PTP, not TRT nor PPP,

after PTP lost an attempt at a Censure vote agains the Dems.

So many utterly incorrect statements in such a simple paragraph boggles the mind,

but you managed it...

[pornsasi]

That just shows how ignorant and brainwashed that you are.

The PPP did NOT win a majority of seats in the last election. They were short of the majority to form government by themselves. Both the PPP and Democrats got about 40% of the vote, but the PPP won more seats. The PPP used a coalition of smaller parties to gain a majority and elect Samak as PM.

Then Samak was stripped of being PM because he had two paid jobs (don't you think a PM should just concentrate on being PM) and lied in court. He could have been elected PM again the very next day, but the PPP and the smaller parties elected Somchai (Thaksin's brother in law).

The the PPP executive (not all MPs) were banned after being caught on video committing electoral fraud. By-elections were held to replace banned MPs. The PTP (new PPP) won very few of the by-elections (it seems the people were a bit sick of them).

At this point, most of the ex-PPP MPs went to the new PTP, but Newin's group formed a new party called the BJT.

Newin's group and some other smaller parties formed a coalition with the Democrats, giving them the majority of MPs to vote Abhisit as PM.

You are right the PPP did not have a majority of seats at last election , but close , and formed a coalition .

Thats how in UK Cameron became prime minister , what's wrong with that ?

Now imagine Cameron is found corrupt and again assume the torries are disbanded , new parties created ,

some faction switching side and so on .

Do you think that new general elections would be called in UK for the whole parliament or not ?

Well if you do not , you have been too long in Thailand , and forgot that democracy comes

with a popular mandate

[noname135]

[in Britain] The A[r]my is never used in controlling or dispersing a crow[d]. No snipers either.

Don't hold the UK or the US up as governments who do things differently. They use what force they need to when they need to, and if the history of the British Empire is anything to go by, they would have acted far more ruthlessly than the current Thai government. Look what they did in India when the protesters (Gandhi etc) really WERE peaceful, and not just pretending to be like the red shirts. The British Army shot nearly 400 unarmed protesters and injured over 1200 in a single incident at Amritsar.

Maybe you didn't live through the more recent Northern Ireland troubles either? Or perhaps if you did you had about as much understanding of it as you do the current Thai ones. You probably don't know much about the Miners' strike in Britian in the early 1980s, when soldiers were dressed in numberless police uniforms and were used to savagely beat ordinary working people protesting for their right to a living.

The British quashed the 1916 Easter Rising by bombarding the Irish rebels from a naval warship, not caring that they destroyed a portion of the centre of Dublin. The ring leaders were tried and convicted for treason without defence or right of appeal under martial law by a military tribunal and executed by firing squad four days later without any prior announcement even to the families. One of them was shot sitting down because he couldn't stand due to injuries sustained in the battle. This was the incident that created mass support for the independence movement, as the Irish were previously indifferent or pro-British. And don't forget that the Black and Tans burned the city of Cork to the ground. Winston Churchill, as minister for war, refused to prosecute any one as he said it would have been too demoralising for the security forces. The Americans fire bombed the densely populated slum area of Chorillo in Panama City as part of their tactical plan to invade Panama and capture Noriega, because it was next to the HQ of the Panamian Defense Force, causing many needless civilian deaths and many more homeless poor families.

I hope the Thai army will act with more restraint.

as had been said before, the thai army (this time !) is acting with a lot of restraint !

yesterday the PM wanted a curfew, the army refused and there was no curfew

but still it does not appear that anyone would - and could - come up with any ideas to stop the fighting, especially as it looks that the reds (their real leaders) don't really want to stop : they just make demands which seem to be unacceptable, and if they are really accepted, they will come up with something even more impossible, kust to keep the chaos going.