Thirty-five Dead In Worsening Bangkok Violence

[gregb]

Never took a side until I now see the thai government rounding up people like lambs and slaughtering them as if they were pieces of shit.

I seriously doubt you could have arrived at that perspective without unbelievably biased preconceptions. You clearly have taken the red side, and for a long time. The government is fighting a terrorist insurrection, and you have no idea how many of those people meant to do serious harm. "Lambs" is about the least accurate word you could possibly use for a metaphor. Vipers maybe.

When anyone says they have never taken a side in this battle, what they mean is they have not publicly announced their bias before. Everyone has already taken a side in this war and nothing will change it. All that remains to be seen is how big the body count needs to get before people decide their side isn't worth the struggle.

Let us all hope just hope it ends quickly. This is a fight for control of the country, and it has been several years in the making. Keep your head down and hope for a swift victory. There will not be a compromise, and both sides are doing the killing. That's what happens in a war.

[JetsetBkk]

I'm trading in my crystal ball.

I honestly thought this whole thing would blow over a month or so ago when the Red Shirts failed to materialize in Bangkok in huge numbers.

Don't worry about it. Lot's of the more "knowledgeable" (in their own minds) posters were saying the reds would all go home for songkran or when it got too hot or when it got too wet or when "the money ran out" or... or...

I'm more worried that my "burn Bangkok" post may be coming true:

Meaning what exactly? As per the State of Emergency in those 15 provinces?

Meaning the government is scared sh1tless that Bangkok will burn if all the red shirt supporters ever made it to the capital.

[Thunder26]

The most amusing comment so far concerns rejection of UN arbitration out of hand. Why??? Sorry, say that again!

I think most people will accept UN arbitration of the situation...*AFTER* the reds leave Bangkok and return home.

After all, once the completely fair and impartial UN comes to investigate the crisis, they no longer have any legitimate concern to stay in Bangkok. Their sole reason for being here was so that they could get an impartial investigation into April 10. (Oh, sorry...I guess it was charge Abhisit and Suthep for that crime without any supporting evidence.) Same, same in red speak though.

Reds want UN intervention? Offer to leave Bangkok and go home in exchange for it. You will probably be surprised at the support you get. People who commit crimes on both sides should not be absolved, and the government has already said they will reinstitute the road map if the reds leave.

Otherwise, their calls are nothing more than spin doctoring by a group of terrorists who don't like the fact that the oppressed are finally standing up to their bullying.

I'm for one disagree with your post, especially when it comes to UN which is a foul organization. UN haven't solved any conflict around the world, if you have any examples feel free to answer. It's a dead organization when it comes to make decisions but it's a live one when it comes to collect money from member countries. Iraq was occupied against UN resolution, so what happened? Extended war in Iraq. Genocide in Darfur, UN did nothing, Americans attacking Yugoslavia destroying the most important infrastructure and UN did nothing. I can continue with many examples if I do a search, just not worth it for UN which discredited itself becoming from a peace institution into a money making one. No UN please, as they will not help Thailand.

[wasabi]

I somehow lost track of the timeline why did this happen

Abhisit offered to hold November elections if the demonstrators went home, but later withdrew the proposal.

I remember there was some reason he withdrew it something the reds did he felt violated the truce. What was that?

[ChemiseRouge]

Sorry, but the British Army are renown world leaders at exactly what the Thai army is trying to do.

But more brutally, and, defiinitely more efficiently (no criticism of British army implied)

We were taught at Sandhurst to read the Riot Act a number of times during which time the ringleaders were identified.

Their expiration followed swiftly after that of the ultimatum.

An army that refuses to fight should have its top brass fired PDQ.

Simples really, none of these rolling deadlines with no consequences.

Rouge Out

[Thunder26]

All the poor innocent protestors??? They declare war on the Government, try to impose their will on the rest of the country (us that democracy???). They are using old women and children as human shields, they are every bit as bad as the Taliban and that lot. I am sure if you ask the Taliban they will say they are fighting for the majority of the population too.

Lets not forget this leader came to power unelected. If the process was democratic the new leader would have called an election long ago to confirm his support of the people.

<deleted> are you talking about? Abhisit was elected by the majority in the parliament and the parliament was legally elected by people. Isn't it democracy? Don't tell me what happened to Thaksin, or what happened after, because there were several elections and the recent one had no connection in distorting the results.

[lounger]

I read in an earlier News article that protesters who took their children to the protesters side refuse to send them home or to a safer place... I must say, this is a really irresponsible act of any parent joining the UDD.

I'm so anxious to take the poor children away from those parents and put them into a safer place and send them to adoption because those parents do not set a right example for the children. How can they even call themselves parents.

Otherwise it's no wonder that Thailand's population is decreasing because those types of parents are so stubborn putting thier children and themselves into grave danger. Their children will die under gunfire, and when their parents die, who's gonna take care of them? Secondly if those kids ever survive somehow, someway, they will plot revenge on the future government when they grow up...

Any person killed during a demonstration is paid extra.................all invited, bring the kids maybe you'll get lucky.....

speechless

[lounger]

I'm for one disagree with your post, especially when it comes to UN which is a foul organization. UN haven't solved any conflict around the world, if you have any examples feel free to answer. It's a dead organization when it comes to make decisions but it's a live one when it comes to collect money from member countries. Iraq was occupied against UN resolution, so what happened? Extended war in Iraq. Genocide in Darfur, UN did nothing, Americans attacking Yugoslavia destroying the most important infrastructure and UN did nothing. I can continue with many examples if I do a search, just not worth it for UN which discredited itself becoming from a peace institution into a money making one. No UN please, as they will not help Thailand.

I agree. the Americans cant wait to get their corporations in the door levered into unsuspecting countries.. The UN is the thin end of the wedge and massive national debt follows. I bet the CIA is loving this debacle they can use it to upset the national resolve..... In fact they probably suggested the UN was a suitable peace negotiator

[TAWP]

I somehow lost track of the timeline why did this happen

Abhisit offered to hold November elections if the demonstrators went home, but later withdrew the proposal.

I remember there was some reason he withdrew it something the reds did he felt violated the truce. What was that?

Well, the reds where supposed to stop their occupation and violence for once...

[ianf]

I somehow lost track of the timeline why did this happen

Abhisit offered to hold November elections if the demonstrators went home, but later withdrew the proposal.

I remember there was some reason he withdrew it something the reds did he felt violated the truce. What was that?

Well, the reds where supposed to stop their occupation and violence for once...

I haven't posted on this topc for ages. But I remain surprised that anyone with even half a brain can't see the truth of what is happening here. Even the BBC's 24-hour news had it wrong putting up a caption that said the protests started when the government was declared illegal. What utter dross. I think the caption was written by a renegade TV poster (lol). Of course Abhisit is a legally elected Premier. Of course the protest is not about democracy. Of course it is funded and encouraged by Thaksin who, from the comfort of his luxurious elite life, is playing a double game in the name of revenge. And those posters who support the reds or think that this is a genuine peasants' revolt should really think a little more deeply about the issues, because that could not be further from the truth.

[Tanaka]

I'm for one disagree with your post, especially when it comes to UN which is a foul organization. UN haven't solved any conflict around the world, if you have any examples feel free to answer. It's a dead organization when it comes to make decisions but it's a live one when it comes to collect money from member countries. Iraq was occupied against UN resolution, so what happened? Extended war in Iraq. Genocide in Darfur, UN did nothing, Americans attacking Yugoslavia destroying the most important infrastructure and UN did nothing. I can continue with many examples if I do a search, just not worth it for UN which discredited itself becoming from a peace institution into a money making one. No UN please, as they will not help Thailand.

name lounger. / I agree. the Americans cant wait to get their corporations in the door levered into unsuspecting countries.. The UN is the thin end of the wedge and massive national debt follows. I bet the CIA is loving this debacle they can use it to upset the national resolve..... In fact they probably suggested the UN was a suitable peace negotiator

American corporations taking over? CIA suggested UN negotiator? The reds asked the UN to help terrorists so what you are implying is that the reds have contacts with CIA! Man, wherever you are, just stay away from the problems in this country. I am sure you can find things to grumble about in your local WalMart.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Tanaka

[dman961]

Total M A D N E S S

Talking about sick?

I'm praying for the baby

Reduced 67% 600 x 450 (85.5K)// Reduced 75% 600 x 800 (130.29K)//

I just submitted these photos to BBC. I suggest you the same to BBC and other media outlets.

I do not think that they will publish it since we did not take these pictures ourselves. Copyright stuff.

Anyways, I submitted it.

This is the video of the baby used as human shield. I have taken this video today at 14.15 h under the expressway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjT7ZKkq5yQ

Please spread it! I give permission that it can be used! Those Reds are insane!!!

you can follow our twitter updates under

http://twitpic.com/photos/freakingcat

I know it was probably not possible, BUT, you should have taken that child to safety and give his parent/gardian a real good slap around the ear for putting an inocent child in such danger. He should not get away with such a selfish act. What a complete idiot!! Hopefully your pics can be used to find this man and have him punished by removing his bllas with a pair of pliers and a blow tourch.

[hammered]

Total M A D N E S S

Talking about sick?

I'm praying for the baby

Reduced 67% 600 x 450 (85.5K)// Reduced 75% 600 x 800 (130.29K)//

I just submitted these photos to BBC. I suggest you the same to BBC and other media outlets.

I do not think that they will publish it since we did not take these pictures ourselves. Copyright stuff.

Anyways, I submitted it.

This is the video of the baby used as human shield. I have taken this video today at 14.15 h under the expressway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjT7ZKkq5yQ

Please spread it! I give permission that it can be used! Those Reds are insane!!!

you can follow our twitter updates under

http://twitpic.com/photos/freakingcat

I know it was probably not possible, BUT, you should have taken that child to safety and give his parent/gardian a real good slap around the ear for putting an inocent child in such danger. He should not get away with such a selfish act. What a complete idiot!! Hopefully your pics can be used to find this man and have him punished by removing his bllas with a pair of pliers and a blow tourch.

Isd the moron in the picture his father or has he been kidnapped by one of those gangs that will later chop his legs off? Whichever way this man deserves something dreadful

[orchidlady]

The posters comparing this to the Los Angeles riots- I lived in LA and went through them The situation in Bangkok does not even compare to the severity of what the LA riots were yet.My dog was shot and killed during the riots. Normally this would be a felony-cruelty to animal with hand gun-but they said they could not do anything they were too busy with the riots.

I was forced to leave work the day the riots broke out because we could see the crowd from our high rise office building heading towards Beverly Center/Beverly Hills area. That is as close as the comparison gets-near upscale shopping centers.

The reason for the LA riots: the Blacks in LA rioted because a man named Rodney King was beaten very badly by a LA police officer and by a sroke of luck, a plumber, I believe was trying out a new video camera he got and happened to catch the beating on video. This was probably the first recorded incidence of police violence in US caught of video cam. Rodney King had been stopped, resisted arrest ( he was no angel-had been in trouble before and continues today to continually get in trouble) HOWEVER he did not deserve the beating he got. Because of the sensitive nature of the trial, it was sent to the county next door, Simi Valley. Simi Valley is very Republican, conservative, full of George Bush lovers if you get my drift. The verdict was written before it ever came in-not guilty of excessive force.

Upon hearing the verdict, several Blacks grabbed a white truck driver and beat him up severely in retaliation. Then an ever increasing mob began looting and burning their neighborhood. The mob grew and continued to spread towards west LA/ Beverly Hills as they started increasing their anger into anti-semitic (against Jews) who they thought held the power in LA.

So it started for one reason and then other people joined to either loot, get things for free that they felt they were denied from upscale shops, and morphed into a cesspool of several different alleged injustices, as mobs often change over time. They looted store after store (electronics, clothing, grocery, etc) and then set fire to it. These problems went on for for about a week spreading throughout the city. National Guard troops were sent in to restore order (a form of military).We had curfews put in-most people were too scared to go out at night anyway. We were told if you were out you risked being shot, no questions asked in the areas subject to curfew. Most employers located in the affected areas cancelled work. Medical personnel, fire, and police were put on extra shifts .The authorities did not mess around.

After the riots several large retailers closed their branches and did not open for many years later.It took many years for the Black vs White hatred to simmer down. I would not say totally improve as conditions have not improved much in their neighborhood since other than the burned and destroyed buildings were eventually rebuilt several years later and filled with mostly mom-and-pop grocery/retail and liquor stores. With the global economic recession hitting everyone, they are hit hardest of all.

[scotbeve]

I assume that both parties can reach a compromise. I would suggest that the coup takers are rounded up and receive a mandatory 20 year prison term. That would calm down the people. The genius strategist that figured out that taking out Seh Daeng would be a good idea can always become a PM, after all Chvalit became also a PM after making immense strategic errors in a clash with laos.

What amazes me is not the rage of the people, they have been taken for granted too long, it is the utmost stupidity within the Abhisit government notably Suthep. Suthep has shown that he is unsuitable for the position that he holds. Blunder after blunder he has made. This government like to refer every time to the English system. But they forget to mention that in England, the army does not meddle in the choice that elected representatives make and d not force them to go against the wishes of the people and join another party. Those politicians wanting to change alliances will resign and people can elet a new representative.

The Amy is never used in controlling or dispersing a crown. No snipers either. The comment that Abhisit made in his explanation to the UN makes it even more shocking. He says that reds dressed as police and army has mingled with the army and is doing the killing. Wow.... Interesting to know that the Army and the police do not recognize outsiders. That might explain why the army cannot win and misbehave in the South.

Someone mentioned Northern Ireland. Good, that's a start. Where shall we begin? Winston Churchill sent troops in to Merthyr Tydfil in 1911 (when he was Home Secretary) to break up a miners' strike.

Tony Blair and Dubya march into Iraq uninvited.

In 1905, troops fired on innocent Russians who were advancing on the Winter Palace in what was later called Leningrad.

The point is: history shows that violence will ALWAYS beget violence. These Thai deaths of the last two months will not be forgotten. A price for them will eventually have to be paid. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but eventually the country will implode. Look at Eastern Europe in 1989 (especially Romania).

The Reds are right....a third party is now needed to help sort out the mess that the ruling class has brought upon itself.

Agreed. And well said!

[IvanDobsky]

I was forced to leave work the day the riots broke out because we could see the crowd from our high rise office building heading towards Beverly Center/Beverly Hills area. That is as close as the comparison gets-near upscale shopping centers.

So it started for one reason and then other people joined to either loot, get things for free that they felt they were denied from upscale shops, and morphed into a cesspool of several different alleged injustices, as mobs often change over time. They looted store after store (electronics, clothing, grocery, etc) and then set fire to it. These problems went on for for about a week spreading throughout the city. National Guard troops were sent in to restore order (a form of military).We had curfews put in-most people were too scared to go out at night anyway. We were told if you were out you risked being shot, no questions asked in the areas subject to curfew.

very interesting and well written, thank you

[hammered]

I was forced to leave work the day the riots broke out because we could see the crowd from our high rise office building heading towards Beverly Center/Beverly Hills area. That is as close as the comparison gets-near upscale shopping centers.

So it started for one reason and then other people joined to either loot, get things for free that they felt they were denied from upscale shops, and morphed into a cesspool of several different alleged injustices, as mobs often change over time. They looted store after store (electronics, clothing, grocery, etc) and then set fire to it. These problems went on for for about a week spreading throughout the city. National Guard troops were sent in to restore order (a form of military).We had curfews put in-most people were too scared to go out at night anyway. We were told if you were out you risked being shot, no questions asked in the areas subject to curfew.

very interesting and well written, thank you

No curfew here. the army top man didnt fancy it even though everyone else in government wanted it. His retirement security is more important than protecting the innocent. Of course a curfew owuld have meant he would have had to have his army boys shot criminals but of course he would rather people suffered than protect the people

[geepipe]

i know i wont be popular for this viewpoint but i dont mind

i think some of the foreigner viewpoints on this forum are based more on selfish reasons rather than a devotion to "what's right"

im not saying that the red shirts are all innocent but A LOT are. most are there in the belief that an injustice was imposed on them with the coup, which at the end of the day it was - completely illegal.

after the coup they (government???) made rules that kept themselves safe from repercussions.

and it was only a month before elections were going to be held, why didn't they wait and do it legally? a military coup is never democratic.

people use the disclaimer 'thats just how thai politics goes' - balls - if thats the case they have no validation denouncing the red shirt people's cause do they - i say 'people' because im not talking about the leaders as i know they have a different agenda and im definitely no fan of mr T, im talking about the people on the ground.

im not even about taking sides, i think the leadership of each side are pretty slimy.

but it pisses me off to hear people tar a huge group of people with the same brush!

they're not all brainless criminals.

i think a lot of people and by that i mean foreigners! mainly ex pats and especially business owners makin a bit of cash just dont want the boat to get rocked and will feel venemous anger towards the people rocking it, regardless of their cause.

now we can speculate whether its about thaksins money, which seems very plausible but do you think joe red public is out there risking his life in the knowledge that its all about one guys money....hardly.

they passionately believe that they are fighting for an honest cause and just because there are hardliners in the group doesn't mean its fair to denounce them as being a violent group as a whole. the guys arming themselves are truly scum, 100% but the majority are using rocks, petrol bombs and fireworks....civilised state forces dont respond to this kind of rioting with lethal force and rightly so.

if they were as armed as thai officials try to make out there would be a hel_l of a lot more soldiers dead but no what do we have, a majority of unarmed people dead. im talking guns because you know armed protestors taken out would be all over the news there.

rant over

Edited May 17, 2010 by geepipe

[jcbangkok]

I was forced to leave work the day the riots broke out because we could see the crowd from our high rise office building heading towards Beverly Center/Beverly Hills area. That is as close as the comparison gets-near upscale shopping centers.

So it started for one reason and then other people joined to either loot, get things for free that they felt they were denied from upscale shops, and morphed into a cesspool of several different alleged injustices, as mobs often change over time. They looted store after store (electronics, clothing, grocery, etc) and then set fire to it. These problems went on for for about a week spreading throughout the city. National Guard troops were sent in to restore order (a form of military).We had curfews put in-most people were too scared to go out at night anyway. We were told if you were out you risked being shot, no questions asked in the areas subject to curfew.

very interesting and well written, thank you

Agree and very accurate ... I was also there.

[jcbangkok]

im not saying that the red shirts are all innocent but A LOT are. most are there ...

They are not innocent .. in addition to stealing and holding hostage billions of dollars in private and public property they have refused uncounted orders from lawful authorities to leave the area.

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

[geepipe]

im not saying that the red shirts are all innocent but A LOT are. most are there ...

They are not innocent .. in addition to stealing and holding hostage billions of dollars in private and public property they have refused uncounted orders from lawful authorities to leave the area.

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

i thought i was pretty clear in saying that they're not all innocent?

and protests, regardless of what country, tend to affect business dont they?

did the coup not affect business? was that legal? was it filing a grievance and fighting for rights in a legal manner?

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

"None"? Absolutely none? You haven't seen or read anything about the peaceful red protesters that are just sitting around occupying their site, listening to various speakers, clapping the little red clappers. You haven't seen any of that?

All you see are the TV reports showing the red morons causing trouble, firing sling shots and guns, burning tyres, etc and you think they comprise the entire group of red shirts? Surely you can't be that dense. Or is exaggeration just your way of expressing yourself?

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

Of course the protest is not about democracy. Of course it is funded and encouraged by Thaksin who, from the comfort of his luxurious elite life, is playing a double game in the name of revenge. And those posters who support the reds or think that this is a genuine peasants' revolt should really think a little more deeply about the issues, because that could not be further from the truth.

And of course, you are so wrong. The cat is out of the bag, the genie out of the bottle. The peasants want their share, they may be forced back this time by Abhisit's sharp-shooters and snipers, but they'll be back. Year zero for Thailand may be not so far away.

[yoshiwara]

<snip>

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

"None"? Absolutely none? You haven't seen or read anything about the peaceful red protesters that are just sitting around occupying their site, listening to various speakers, clapping the little red clappers. You haven't seen any of that?

All you see are the TV reports showing the red morons causing trouble, firing sling shots and guns, burning tyres, etc and you think they comprise the entire group of red shirts? Surely you can't be that dense. Or is exaggeration just your way of expressing yourself?

The decisive group.

The rest should go home before the thugs draw them in to the conflagration.

On the other hand a useful human shield eh?

You are not dense, just a dark shade of opaque.

[jcbangkok]

im not saying that the red shirts are all innocent but A LOT are. most are there ...

They are not innocent .. in addition to stealing and holding hostage billions of dollars in private and public property they have refused uncounted orders from lawful authorities to leave the area.

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

i thought i was pretty clear in saying that they're not all innocent?

and protests, regardless of what country, tend to affect business dont they?

did the coup not affect business? was that legal? was it filing a grievance and fighting for rights in a legal manner?

The point is you are saying a lot of them are innocent when this is completely untrue. It may have been very early on but now they are ALL criminals minus small children who don't understand. And it is just very ignorant to compare this to a protest in other parts of the world because it would not be tolerated in most all civilized countries or even be described as a protest.

[jcbangkok]

<snip>

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

"None"? Absolutely none? You haven't seen or read anything about the peaceful red protesters that are just sitting around occupying their site, listening to various speakers, clapping the little red clappers. You haven't seen any of that?

All you see are the TV reports showing the red morons causing trouble, firing sling shots and guns, burning tyres, etc and you think they comprise the entire group of red shirts? Surely you can't be that dense. Or is exaggeration just your way of expressing yourself?

When you snip a quote and that addresses exactly what you are ignorantly speaking about it shows a certain level of dishonesty.

They are all breaking the law by illegally gathering, refusing lawful order to disperse and depriving (stealing) both private and public (Thai's) property worth billions of dollars.

EDIT: and I have been to the red mob site prior to it getting EXTREMELY ugly and each time they were spouting nothing but hate on the stage including talk of burning down BKK if they don't get what they want.

Edited May 17, 2010 by jcbangkok

[geepipe]

im not saying that the red shirts are all innocent but A LOT are. most are there ...

They are not innocent .. in addition to stealing and holding hostage billions of dollars in private and public property they have refused uncounted orders from lawful authorities to leave the area.

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

i thought i was pretty clear in saying that they're not all innocent?

and protests, regardless of what country, tend to affect business dont they?

did the coup not affect business? was that legal? was it filing a grievance and fighting for rights in a legal manner?

The point is you are saying a lot of them are innocent when this is completely untrue. It may have been very early on but now they are ALL criminals minus small children who don't understand. And it is just very ignorant to compare this to a protest in other parts of the world because it would not be tolerated in most all civilized countries or even be described as a protest.

and it is being tolerated in Thailand is it? this is what you call tolerance? i'd hate to see what you call action.

you're saying they are ALL criminals, im taking that you mean because they've been told to move away and have declined...isn't that the very model of a protest?

are you saying that anyone who's asked to move while protesting is a criminal? and i mean a criminal who deserves to get shot because that's what's happening.

[roisoleil]

I read in an earlier News article that protesters who took their children to the protesters side refuse to send them home or to a safer place... I must say, this is a really irresponsible act of any parent joining the UDD.

I'm so anxious to take the poor children away from those parents and put them into a safer place and send them to adoption because those parents do not set a right example for the children. How can they even call themselves parents.

Otherwise it's no wonder that Thailand's population is decreasing because those types of parents are so stubborn putting thier children and themselves into grave danger. Their children will die under gunfire, and when their parents die, who's gonna take care of them? Secondly if those kids ever survive somehow, someway, they will plot revenge on the future government when they grow up...

You are an American, aren't you? It is so common in US to take children from parents and to put them on medications that make them complete idiots, like many Americans are. You are so rude and to easy-going to violence against rights of other people that no wonder to see that such Americans are killing hundred thousands of innocent people in Irak, Afhanistan, Serbia, Somalia, and anywhere esle where the U.S. has interests. Low birth rate in Thailand is because poor Thai women start to work before they are 16 and men in Isan and other rural areas of Thailand cannot earn enough money to support a family. So, the reds are fighting for the right of all people of Thailand to have kids and to have a family, for the right to be treated equally to the shitty "elite" of Thailand, for the right to get proper educations for kids. So, the parents are ready to die for better future of own kinds and without better future the life of them and their children has no sense. I love Thai commoners, I love them even more now when I see how brave and strong they are. As for the "elite" of Bangkok, I met before some "academics". I see how low is the level of them in intellectual abilities. We see the same in actions of the present government of Thailand that is from the same stupid elite. It is because poor people have no way to get education and to get to the upper levels of the Thai society to serve own country. Personally, I am very cautious about Thaksin but he is a hero of simple people, commoners, as he is a self-made billionaire and former PM. He is not an an angel but he is so much better of the present PM and anyone from all shitty elite that are ready to kill kids, monks, reporters and foreigners as well as any poor Thai citizen for the keeping of a "status quo" and for keeping a stratified society in Thailand. The time of them is gone. People are fighting for freedom and justice not for Thuksin and they win. We are witnessing a birth of a new democratic Thailand. I wish only that nobble king of Thailand would interfere and stand above the shitty elite for all people of Thailand. Otherwise, there will be no more king in Thailand, and this is not what Thai people and me, personally, want to see. Long live the king, Free elections and democracy to Thai people.

This is a terrible flame. I happen to sympathize with the Red Shirts but I have many American friends and several friends from among the Thai elite. I hope the moderators get around to your post sooner than later? The Thai elite are not uniformally awful people and many among the Red Shirts are dangerous extremists/villains. Thaksin is no hero and the mere fact that Abhisit is corrupt does not excuse Thaksin's many abuses of power. As for Americans, name another country you would prefer to have as the world's sole remaining superpower. They are far from perfect but its easy to pick out the warts on the elephant standing in your living room. Whre are you from? Is your country so perfect? Had it the power the U.S. wields would it behave in so relatively speaking benign a manner?

[jcbangkok]

im not saying that the red shirts are all innocent but A LOT are. most are there ...

They are not innocent .. in addition to stealing and holding hostage billions of dollars in private and public property they have refused uncounted orders from lawful authorities to leave the area.

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

i thought i was pretty clear in saying that they're not all innocent?

and protests, regardless of what country, tend to affect business dont they?

did the coup not affect business? was that legal? was it filing a grievance and fighting for rights in a legal manner?

The point is you are saying a lot of them are innocent when this is completely untrue. It may have been very early on but now they are ALL criminals minus small children who don't understand. And it is just very ignorant to compare this to a protest in other parts of the world because it would not be tolerated in most all civilized countries or even be described as a protest.

and it is being tolerated in Thailand is it? this is what you call tolerance? i'd hate to see what you call action.

you're saying they are ALL criminals, im taking that you mean because they've been told to move away and have declined...isn't that the very model of a protest?

are you saying that anyone who's asked to move while protesting is a criminal? and i mean a criminal who deserves to get shot because that's what's happening.

I sincerely apologize but I just don't have patience for you at this time of night. I suggest you learn more about what has transpired the last two months as well as understanding what the State of Emergency order in place reflects as well as what is considered a peaceful protest as well as peaceful civil disobedience. Your arguments are either just too ignorant and/or lacking too much common sense to respond more to at this late hour.

Edited May 17, 2010 by jcbangkok

[Trev]

im not saying that the red shirts are all innocent but A LOT are. most are there ...

They are not innocent .. in addition to stealing and holding hostage billions of dollars in private and public property they have refused uncounted orders from lawful authorities to leave the area.

There are MANY ways to protest legally and to file grievances and fight for you rights in Thailand and NONE of what the reds have done fall under peaceful or law obeying citizens.

i thought i was pretty clear in saying that they're not all innocent?

and protests, regardless of what country, tend to affect business dont they?

did the coup not affect business? was that legal? was it filing a grievance and fighting for rights in a legal manner?

The point is you are saying a lot of them are innocent when this is completely untrue. It may have been very early on but now they are ALL criminals minus small children who don't understand. And it is just very ignorant to compare this to a protest in other parts of the world because it would not be tolerated in most all civilized countries or even be described as a protest.

I think we have to distinguish between the red-shirt protesters who have gone beyond protest and those people who sympathize with the red-shirt cause in general and would even go as far to classify themselves red-shirts but haven't been a part of this "protest" in Bangkok.