Off The Middle Path

[animatic]

This Article is couple of bricks short of a load!

It's not a bad rough draft about 'some' of the key players. Is it, like, against some kind of law to detail any facts about Sondhi, or is he the writer's boss, or are Thais scared to?

Of all the men mentioned in the article, only 1 would tie Sondhi for having an influence on Thailand, going back to the days when he supported and helped bankroll Thaksin into power.

The article says a lot, which I agree with, about Thaksin; but not fitting Sondhi into the 'history' speaks volumes about the slant of the writer!

If the writer wants to come clean, don't forget to shampoo as well!

Well except for Thaksin she only spoke of people she knew in the context of now and '92.

Who knows where Sondhi was, but not in her circle, so there is no reason, nor need to

bring him in so 'you' see some balance, in your perspective only, when he isn't part of the story.

Edited May 26, 2010 by animatic

[nikster]

For the past 15 or so years however the country has begun significantly to develop its economy, particularly (since 1980) industry and more recently a service/consumer economy. Buddhism offers nothing to the contemporary neuveau rich and/or to the middle class concerning wealth creation, wealth management, distribution of wealth, modern consumerism etc.

A profund misunderstanding of Buddhism (or in fact any religion) right there. I don't follow any particular faith but as things go Buddhism is best suited to get over this mess. Would be totally OT here to go any further but I can tell you that I did believe that religion is a means to control the poor masses... when I was 16. I have since learned that that's as far from the truth as you can possibly imagine. Religions are very well suited to provide comfort to the poor - but that's because they point to a deeper truth not because they're some kind of deception. To the contrary. Materialism is the illusion.

I find it pretty interesting that all these people worked alongside each other in the pro democracy protests. I wonder if they, at that time, really knew what they were protesting for. I am guessing they wanted an elected government, not realizing that somebody like Thaksin would then come along and game the system to his own ends - something that is very easy in a country that doesn't fulfill any of the prerequisites for true democracy except elections. Even western democracies are gamed - look at lobbyists in the USA - but not to the extent that this happens in Thailand. Corruption and absence of law enforcement means that you can pay for votes (through a multitude of schemes) and later make this money back tenfold through corruption schemes.

Edited May 26, 2010 by nikster

[chaoyang]

For the past 15 or so years however the country has begun significantly to develop its economy, particularly (since 1980) industry and more recently a service/consumer economy. Buddhism offers nothing to the contemporary neuveau rich and/or to the middle class concerning wealth creation, wealth management, distribution of wealth, modern consumerism etc.

I'm sure Buddhism can address this and any other problem if one truly works it -- likely the Buddhist answer could be that pursuit and grasping of such things is an illusion that leads to unhappiness. But hey, I'm no monk.

Buddha himself was once a rich guy, you've got to remember.

Edited May 26, 2010 by chaoyang

[chantorn]

Off the Middle Path

New York Times

May 24, 2010

By KARUNA BUAKAMSRI

BANGKOK — Last Wednesday, the television station where I work in Bangkok was attacked and set on fire by an angry mob while I was anchoring the news. The men who invaded the building were members of the red shirts — protesters who had seized control of the center of Thailand’s capital for more than two months with the goal of bringing downing the government.

Attacked and set on fire by a English man (Farang).

He is in jail now, according to Mark.

[chantorn]

Off the Middle Path

May 24, 2010

By KARUNA BUAKAMSRI

Being intelligent AND pretty are always an admirable dual trait.

Karuna's Facebook pic

Pretty? That's a very subjective term.

[dttk0009]

Sounds like Chantorn hopped aboard a rage train this morning. Sheesh.

[chaoyang]

Attacked and set on fire by a English man (Farang).

He is in jail now, according to Mark.

Huh?

[Thai-Aust]

Having read the article, it would be very interesting indeed to be able to figure out what makes these prominent characters shift from one side to the other extreme. Was it money or power or both or just pure ideologies?

[Publicus]

For the past 15 or so years however the country has begun significantly to develop its economy, particularly (since 1980) industry and more recently a service/consumer economy. Buddhism offers nothing to the contemporary neuveau rich and/or to the middle class concerning wealth creation, wealth management, distribution of wealth, modern consumerism etc.

A profund misunderstanding of Buddhism (or in fact any religion) right there. I don't follow any particular faith but as things go Buddhism is best suited to get over this mess. Would be totally OT here to go any further but I can tell you that I did believe that religion is a means to control the poor masses... when I was 16. I have since learned that that's as far from the truth as you can possibly imagine. Religions are very well suited to provide comfort to the poor - but that's because they point to a deeper truth not because they're some kind of deception. To the contrary. Materialism is the illusion.

<<snip>>

For the past 15 or so years however the country has begun significantly to develop its economy, particularly (since 1980) industry and more recently a service/consumer economy. Buddhism offers nothing to the contemporary neuveau rich and/or to the middle class concerning wealth creation, wealth management, distribution of wealth, modern consumerism etc.

I'm sure Buddhism can address this and any other problem if one truly works it -- likely the Buddhist answer could be that pursuit and grasping of such things is an illusion that leads to unhappiness. But hey, I'm no monk.

Buddha himself was once a rich guy, you've got to remember.

A book I read several years ago, "Buddhist Economics" by the Vernerable R.A. Payutto of the Thailand Buddhadhamma Foundation is a wafer thin volume which focuses on a preachy attack against modern consumerism and market economics especially - it said little or nothing about Buddhist economics itself, except that the monarch must be knowlegable in all aspects of agriculture. Many Western scholars and economists have written on the subject but I wanted to make of point of reading this man of the cloth speaking directly from the religion's point of view here in Thailand which is the land of the minority Theravada Buddhism.

My conclusion after reading the book is that Buddhism offers nothing to modern economics of any school or to any modern society which practices modern economics whether the economics are of Adam Smith, Karl Marx or Thaksin Shinawatra. There is absolutely no mention of technology in the book, especially hi tech but no mention even of computers. If Buddhism can work out the contradictions and inequalities of the modern Thai economy, not to mention the greed and graft inherent to it, the religion has yet to do so. I'd be surprised if the ostriches who preach an antiquated set of economic principles, philosophy and their inherent morality are capable of meeting the present radical challenges to the ancien regime , much less the challenges attendant to the country's future.    

Edited May 26, 2010 by Publicus

[chaoyang]

A book I read several years ago, "Buddhist Economics" by the Vernerable R.A. Payutto of the Thailand Buddhadhamma Foundation is a wafer thin volume which focuses on a preachy attack against modern consumerism and market economics especially - it said little or nothing about Buddhist economics itself, except that the monarch must be knowlegable in all aspects of agriculture. Many Western scholars and economists have written on the subject but I wanted to make of point of reading this man of the cloth speaking directly from the religion's point of view here in Thailand which is the land of the minority Theravada Buddhism.

My conclusion after reading the book is that Buddhism offers nothing to modern economics of any school or to any modern society which practices modern economics whether the economics are of Adam Smith, Karl Marx or Thaksin Shinawatra. There is absolutely no mention of technology in the book, especially hi tech but no mention even of computers. If Buddhism can work out the contradictions and inequalities of the modern Thai economy, not to mention the greed and graft inherent to it, the religion has yet to do so. I'd be surprised if the ostriches who preach an antiquated set of economic principles, philosophy and their inherent morality are capable of meeting the present radical challenges to the ancien regime , much less the challenges attendant to the country's future.    

Inherent in your observation is that some sort of -ism must be addressed by Buddhist teaching, whether it's capitalism, communism, consumerism, etc. Buddhism would say all of that, in whatever guise, is self and ego and therefore impediments to enlightenment and happiness.

If people truly meditated and tried to live according to Buddha's discoveries, Thailand certainly wouldn't be in the fix it is today -- or the fix it has been in forever. Always has been a rather savage and certainly unfair place.

Of course, a little gold foil and a prayer for personal prosperity is not Buddhism.

Edited May 26, 2010 by chaoyang

[featography]

Off the Middle Path

May 24, 2010

By KARUNA BUAKAMSRI

Being intelligent AND pretty are always an admirable dual trait.

Karuna's Facebook pic

Pretty? That's a very subjective term.

looks pretty good to me too. I bet she gets no complaints from her other half in any dept

[chaoyang]

Off the Middle Path

May 24, 2010

By KARUNA BUAKAMSRI

Being intelligent AND pretty are always an admirable dual trait.

Karuna's Facebook pic

Pretty? That's a very subjective term.

looks pretty good to me too. I bet she gets no complaints from her other half in any dept

In light of my recent pontifications about Buddhism, I don't know if I should comment on your need for eyeglasses

[Publicus]

A book I read several years ago, "Buddhist Economics" by the Vernerable R.A. Payutto of the Thailand Buddhadhamma Foundation is a wafer thin volume which focuses on a preachy attack against modern consumerism and market economics especially - it said little or nothing about Buddhist economics itself, except that the monarch must be knowlegable in all aspects of agriculture. Many Western scholars and economists have written on the subject but I wanted to make of point of reading this man of the cloth speaking directly from the religion's point of view here in Thailand which is the land of the minority Theravada Buddhism.

My conclusion after reading the book is that Buddhism offers nothing to modern economics of any school or to any modern society which practices modern economics whether the economics are of Adam Smith, Karl Marx or Thaksin Shinawatra. There is absolutely no mention of technology in the book, especially hi tech but no mention even of computers. If Buddhism can work out the contradictions and inequalities of the modern Thai economy, not to mention the greed and graft inherent to it, the religion has yet to do so. I'd be surprised if the ostriches who preach an antiquated set of economic principles, philosophy and their inherent morality are capable of meeting the present radical challenges to the ancien regime , much less the challenges attendant to the country's future.    

Inherent in your observation is that some sort of -ism must be addressed by Buddhist teaching, whether it's capitalism, communism, consumerism, etc. Buddhism would say all of that, in whatever guise, is self and ego and therefore impediments to enlightenment and happiness.

If people truly meditated and tried to live according to Buddha's discoveries, Thailand certainly wouldn't be in the fix it is today -- or the fix it has been in forever. Always has been a rather savage and certainly unfair place.

Of course, a little gold foil and a prayer for personal prosperity is not Buddhism.

Stop the world, you wanna get off.

Devout Muslims pray five times daily and suffer thru one month of fasting from sunup to sundown...that hasn't resolved much for the vast majority of them, including often violent divisions within between Sunnis and Shi'ites.

Thailand has been Buddhist for all the time it's been a "rather savage and certainly unfair place."

Avoiding "isms" such as Buddhism is a leap back over much human history. Being reactionary doesn't accomplish much, if anything, but if that's possible in your world, go for it. Buddhism hasn't made its case for viability in the present much less the future.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Publicus

[Samuian]

@Publicus: I am sorry, I have to disagree with your point in post #5 where you try to indicate that the Buddhist teaching of avoiding "want" had value in times where people had nothing, but today it's value is questionable if it doesn't disappear in the face that - what "every body has reached th egoal of capitalism"!

Just one question: Why didn't have Buddhism it's Renaissance in the times

of the worldwide great depression but in the "roaring 60ites"?

Where world economies were thriving..?

Why Buddhism has been voted the "most favorable Religion" last year?

I don't think that at any time any society or human being n this planet could abandon these universal truth's

that are, just to pick 3:

Ahimsa: Non-violence. Not harming other people or other sentient beings. Not harming onesself. Not harming the environment. Tolerance even for that which we dislike. Not speaking that which, even though truthful, would injure others.

Santosha: contentment; being satisfied with the resources at hand - therefore not desiring more

Aparigraha : Abstention from greed. Not coveting that which is not ours. Avoidance of unnecessary acquisition of objects not essential to maintaining life or spiritual study.

maybe You didn't express yourself well enough or I mistook what you tried to express...

Edited May 26, 2010 by Samuian

[Samuian]

Off the Middle Path

New York Times

May 24, 2010

By KARUNA BUAKAMSRI

BANGKOK — Last Wednesday, the television station where I work in Bangkok was attacked and set on fire by an angry mob while I was anchoring the news. The men who invaded the building were members of the red shirts — protesters who had seized control of the center of Thailand’s capital for more than two months with the goal of bringing downing the government.

Attacked and set on fire by a English man (Farang).

He is in jail now, according to Mark.

See, rage and indoctrination doesn't stop at nationalities - does it?

It doesn't matter if he was an Inuit... the act, the timing of the act and in which context it was done - that matters!

[chaoyang]

Stop the world, you wanna get off.

Devout Muslims pray five times daily and suffer thru one month of fasting from sunup to sundown...that hasn't resolved much for the vast majority of them, including often violent divisions within between Sunnis and Shi'ites.

Thailand has been Buddhist for all the time it's been a "rather savage and certainly unfair place."

Avoiding "isms" such as Buddhism is a leap back over much human history. Being reactionary doesn't accomplish much, if anything, but if that's possible in your world, go for it. Buddhism hasn't made its case for viability in the present much less the future.

The paradox of Buddhism as I understand it is that it teaches only personal enlightenment -- yes, stop the world, I want to get off and find peace -- while giving up responsibility for others, so efforts at leadership may well be ego and grasping, etc.

If no one takes responsibility, then presumably the world gets even worse, so I need to work on my acceptance even harder. Seems a vicious cycle.

Still, I see no reason why any religion needs to accommodate capitalism/consumerism. True practitioners could likely say capitalism/consumerism are intrinsically destructive and likely evil.

Edited May 26, 2010 by chaoyang

[Publicus]

@Publicus: I am sorry, I have to disagree with your point in post #5 where you try to indicate that the Buddhist teaching of avoiding "want" had value in times where people had nothing, but today it's value is questionable if it doesn't disappear in the face that - what "every body has reached th egoal of capitalism"!

Just one question: Why didn't have Buddhism it's Renaissance in the times

of the worldwide great depression but in the "roaring 60ites"?

Where world economies were thriving..?

Why Buddhism has been voted the "most favorable Religion" last year?

<<<snip>>>

maybe You didn't express yourself well enough or I mistook what you tried to express...

Pardon my cynicism, but in the West Buddhism and its introspective spirituality absent a theistic god appeals to the already wealthy. In the West Buddhism per se has some profound appeal to the super rich and to others because it is meditative, introspective, humble, peaceful, harmonious, not theistic in its demands etc. So Buddhism is a means by which the filthy Western rich can pary their decades of successful money grubbing suddenly to appear morally substantive and spiritually enlightened - while their Lamborghini is parked outside the temple.

Stop the world, you wanna get off.

Devout Muslims pray five times daily and suffer thru one month of fasting from sunup to sundown...that hasn't resolved much for the vast majority of them, including often violent divisions within between Sunnis and Shi'ites.

Thailand has been Buddhist for all the time it's been a "rather savage and certainly unfair place."

Avoiding "isms" such as Buddhism is a leap back over much human history. Being reactionary doesn't accomplish much, if anything, but if that's possible in your world, go for it. Buddhism hasn't made its case for viability in the present much less the future.

The paradox of Buddhism as I understand it is that it teaches only personal enlightenment -- yes, stop the world, I want to get off and find peace -- while giving up responsibility for others, so efforts at leadership may well be ego and grasping, etc.

If no one takes responsibility, then presumably the world gets even worse, so I need to work on my acceptance even harder. Seems a vicious cycle.

Still, I see no reason why any religion needs to accommodate capitalism/consumerism. True practitioners could likely say capitalism/consumerism are intrinsically destructive and likely evil.

Any economic "ism" needs a societal morality, a societally operative code of ethics, commonly agreed and practiced values as a society if it is to succeed. Pardon my pov, but the Judeo-Christian system of morality and ethics suits economic "isms" well, as evidenced by the successes of economic "isms" of several kind and combination of kind throughout the West. This is absent from Buddhism which, as has been pointed out, focuses on the individual rather than on society and social interaction, on the individual rather than on economics and economic relationships, on the individual alone not also on the institutions of society such as government, which deals with the distribution of power in the society etc. Buddhism offers nothing to guide humans in their institutional roles and relationships, post Industrial Revolution society especially.

From Mesopotamia to circa 1750 England and James Watt, humans had few material benfits to their static lives and only spiritual comfort, which is a sentiment that is deeply rooted over milennia so it's difficult for science in the modern world to break through that train of thinking and passivity. We've been emotive and spiritual for so long we continue to be carried by the intertia of accepting the ready spiritual answer. For those who don't like deism and wish to have the punishing god removed from the equation, Buddhism has great appeal. Buddhist economics however is an atomized and anarchic antithesis to economics itself, per se. Hence Thailand. Buddhist Taiwan has done rather well but due to many differences from Buddhist Thailand.

[Samuian]

A book I read several years ago, "Buddhist Economics" by the Vernerable R.A. Payutto of the Thailand Buddhadhamma Foundation is a wafer thin volume which focuses on a preachy attack against modern consumerism and market economics especially - it said little or nothing about Buddhist economics itself, except that the monarch must be knowlegable in all aspects of agriculture. Many Western scholars and economists have written on the subject but I wanted to make of point of reading this man of the cloth speaking directly from the religion's point of view here in Thailand which is the land of the minority Theravada Buddhism.

My conclusion after reading the book is that Buddhism offers nothing to modern economics of any school or to any modern society which practices modern economics whether the economics are of Adam Smith, Karl Marx or Thaksin Shinawatra. There is absolutely no mention of technology in the book, especially hi tech but no mention even of computers. If Buddhism can work out the contradictions and inequalities of the modern Thai economy, not to mention the greed and graft inherent to it, the religion has yet to do so. I'd be surprised if the ostriches who preach an antiquated set of economic principles, philosophy and their inherent morality are capable of meeting the present radical challenges to the ancien regime , much less the challenges attendant to the country's future.    

"no mention of computers" what is this "stunning fact" supposed to indicate?

What is wrong with the concept of self efficiency for poor farmers?

Are computers going to feed them, are they going to perform the miracle, the impossible?

Do not over estimate technological superiority!

What can you do with a computer with out electricity.. what happens if this fails... and you are "out in the bush" somewhere?

What "challenges"?

genuine challenges like shopping at Siam Paragon, owning the latest Apple gadget, a Louis Vuitton bag, drive a Lotus, stay at the Athenee Plaza or he Oriental, playing Golf in Dubai?

Isn't life for most of ANY population of ANY country a slight bit different?

IS savage capitalism and "have it all", eat me, have me, buy me consumerism really the goal and infallible satisfactory?

I don't think so, because there are simply not enough opportunities for all "out there"!

Simple as that - it' not the all cure!

[Publicus]

A book I read several years ago, "Buddhist Economics" by the Vernerable R.A. Payutto of the Thailand Buddhadhamma Foundation is a wafer thin volume which focuses on a preachy attack against modern consumerism and market economics especially - it said little or nothing about Buddhist economics itself, except that the monarch must be knowlegable in all aspects of agriculture. Many Western scholars and economists have written on the subject but I wanted to make of point of reading this man of the cloth speaking directly from the religion's point of view here in Thailand which is the land of the minority Theravada Buddhism.

My conclusion after reading the book is that Buddhism offers nothing to modern economics of any school or to any modern society which practices modern economics whether the economics are of Adam Smith, Karl Marx or Thaksin Shinawatra. There is absolutely no mention of technology in the book, especially hi tech but no mention even of computers. If Buddhism can work out the contradictions and inequalities of the modern Thai economy, not to mention the greed and graft inherent to it, the religion has yet to do so. I'd be surprised if the ostriches who preach an antiquated set of economic principles, philosophy and their inherent morality are capable of meeting the present radical challenges to the ancien regime , much less the challenges attendant to the country's future.    

"no mention of computers" what is this "stunning fact" supposed to indicate?

What is wrong with the concept of self efficiency for poor farmers?

Are computers going to feed them, are they going to perform the miracle, the impossible?

Do not over estimate technological superiority!

What can you do with a computer with out electricity.. what happens if this fails... and you are "out in the bush" somewhere?

What "challenges"?

genuine challenges like shopping at Siam Paragon, owning the latest Apple gadget, a Louis Vuitton bag, drive a Lotus, stay at the Athenee Plaza or he Oriental, playing Golf in Dubai?

Isn't life for most of ANY population of ANY country a slight bit different?

IS savage capitalism and "have it all", eat me, have me, buy me consumerism really the goal and infallible satisfactory?

I don't think so, because there are simply not enough opportunities for all "out there"!

Simple as that - it' not the all cure!

Samuian I always give attention to your posts, I think you make sincere posts and raise many good points. So I haven't any argument with you - sometimes my voice in posts can be more severe than my actual feelings or intents, as is true in this discussion of Buddhism in Thailand specifically but, in response to our earlier post, some of the appeal of Buddhism to certain crass segments of the rich West in particular (the very wealthy actor Richard Gere most immediately comes to mind but there many similar others). As is true of so many things, Buddhism can look better from afar than it does in its reality as practiced in a Buddhist society itself so maybe it sometimes might deserve a harsh expose'.  

I view the absence of the mention of computers in the Venerable R.A. Payutto's flimsy attack book "Buddhist Economics" as the failure to recognize or deal with the modern world, that's all. Rather than setting forth any principles and precepts of Buddhist economics, he focuses on modernity to attack, attack, attack. The book is a reactionary statement only, which I cannot respect because it is entirely absent a present or forward looking statement of what Buddhist economics is or might be if indeed such a beast exists. I mean, if someone writes a book "Antarctica" but writes only to criticize those who don't go to the continent, I'd consider the author to have a weird bent and who, because of it, tells me nothing about Antarctica thereby wasting my time (and money).  

Computers are used in Western agronomy (the word agriculture and the concept of agriculture belongs to an uninterrupted 12,000 year static past). Self sufficiency farming is economic masturbation, as is the ingrown and incestuous application in Thailand of the one village one product interaction within the country only, irrespective of the globalized world, which is another attempt to continue the ostrich behaviors of the unfortunate reactionaries whose antisocial attitudes are stuck in past history. No electricity no computers sounds like a line from the movie 2012, the year that Pres Obama will be reelected.

Materialism and consumerism are not the be all or end all. As I've discussed at this thread, humans have a 12,000 year history of emotive spiritualism which dies hard because it offers ready answers with which we are familiar and find easily accessable. But the application of knowledge to the realm of economics has radically and irreversably altered the human condition, the Old World societies such as those of East Asia have begun to move to effect the same to their economies. In central interior China recently a province advertised globally for 40 economists to work for it to develop it for the benefit of its people, and the provincial government stuck to its guns in the face of unrelenting criticism from traditionalists who believe knowledge is pure so is therefore a grossly and improper applcation in the crass realm of economics - modern economics which seeks to make the lives of peasants materially better, to include standard of living and quality of life especially, which extends to greater life expectancy, more and better education, the advent of more leisure time for quality pursuits of highbrow culture and vigorous sports recreation etc etc.

"Savage capitalism" has long since become greatly tamed and, further, checked by sloppy socialism. Both continue to suffer the pains of their necessary improvement and refinement which inevitably occurs because of harsh experience over time.

If you accept the thesis as I do that originally civilizations were founded on the basis and precepts of religions, we could better recognize why Thailand in the meantime continues to go straight down the shytter.     

[eggomaniac]

Having read the article, it would be very interesting indeed to be able to figure out what makes these prominent characters shift from one side to the other extreme. Was it money or power or both or just pure ideologies?

Just think how many 'hippies' at Woodstock, shouting "don't trust anybody under 30!" went onto become corrupt inside wall street traders and politicians.

If Thailand is to be saved "Don't trust anybody who owns private jets." ANYbody

In several Posts since last November I was predicting 'warning' of the underestimation of the reds.

[used strong 'pictures' like the 'the water is off the beach, the tsunami is coming' 'the red and yellow trains are heading for a head on << this is documented fact]

NOW, I am telling you all, "The fault lines for the break up of Thailand are set"

A German philosopher said truth goes through 3 stages.

1. it's opposed by ridicule

2. it's opposed by violence

3. when it becomes 'evident', the opponents claim it was their's all along

-------------------

My Solution and Plan is finally getting some traction. Some of the academics I talked to at their institutions in Nov and Dec, now realise I knew what I was talking about and are corresponding with me.

------

It is NOT fun being an 'I told you so' when people have died, an economy has been crippled, and the Kingdom is set to break up, especially when Thailand has the great potential to become a G30 Nation!

The Joseph Solution would bring Peace within weeks, Stability within months and Great Prosperity within years. That is 100%. The Joseph Plan is what is very Don Quixotish, 'tilting at windmills'; but, like I say, it has finally gotten a little bit of traction.

There are events which have been predicted to occur, by others, at the Autumn military promotions which could spell the end of Thailand.

Oh, There is a Joke sub Forum on TV.

I feel very much like Copying and Pasting everytime somebody prints, "Thailand getting back to Normal", or <<< That is the most deadly and hilarious thinking that anybody could have!!! [back to narmal YEA RIGHT!!!]

What has just occured was the Warning Shots!

[lannarebirth]

Having read the article, it would be very interesting indeed to be able to figure out what makes these prominent characters shift from one side to the other extreme. Was it money or power or both or just pure ideologies?

Just think how many 'hippies' at Woodstock, shouting "don't trust anybody under 30!" went onto become corrupt inside wall street traders and politicians.

If Thailand is to be saved "Don't trust anybody who owns private jets." ANYbody

In several Posts since last November I was predicting 'warning' of the underestimation of the reds.

[used strong 'pictures' like the 'the water is off the beach, the tsunami is coming' 'the red and yellow trains are heading for a head on << this is documented fact]

NOW, I am telling you all, "The fault lines for the break up of Thailand are set"

A German philosopher said truth goes through 3 stages.

1. it's opposed by ridicule

2. it's opposed by violence

3. when it becomes 'evident', the opponents claim it was their's all along

-------------------

My Solution and Plan is finally getting some traction. Some of the academics I talked to at their institutions in Nov and Dec, now realise I knew what I was talking about and are corresponding with me.

------

It is NOT fun being an 'I told you so' when people have died, an economy has been crippled, and the Kingdom is set to break up, especially when Thailand has the great potential to become a G30 Nation!

The Joseph Solution would bring Peace within weeks, Stability within months and Great Prosperity within years. That is 100%. The Joseph Plan is what is very Don Quixotish, 'tilting at windmills'; but, like I say, it has finally gotten a little bit of traction.

There are events which have been predicted to occur, by others, at the Autumn military promotions which could spell the end of Thailand.

Oh, There is a Joke sub Forum on TV.

I feel very much like Copying and Pasting everytime somebody prints, "Thailand getting back to Normal", or <<< That is the most deadly and hilarious thinking that anybody could have!!! [back to narmal YEA RIGHT!!!]

What has just occured was the Warning Shots!

You haven't really been telling us anything. Any time someone asks you to explain what the paln you mention is about you go silent. I hope you do choose to expand on the cryptic "plans" you've offered thus far. Now to the portion of your post I have highlighted. After the fires there is NO WAY the people of Bangkok will allow for the return of Thaksin, other than in an urn. He's crazy, but I think he's probably smart enough to realize that. If he continues with his fomenting of insurrection, that means to me he has a diffenet goal in mind rather than to return and rule (in person or defacto) over the whole of Thailand. That goal might be to create a division of the state as creating division is his chief characteristic. What then is the question. I just can't see that far. Personally,I think he has played his cards too soon and his bluff has been called. End of game or dam_n near.

[eggomaniac]

Having read the article, it would be very interesting indeed to be able to figure out what makes these prominent characters shift from one side to the other extreme. Was it money or power or both or just pure ideologies?

Just think how many 'hippies' at Woodstock, shouting "don't trust anybody under 30!" went onto become corrupt inside wall street traders and politicians.

If Thailand is to be saved "Don't trust anybody who owns private jets." ANYbody

In several Posts since last November I was predicting 'warning' of the underestimation of the reds.

[used strong 'pictures' like the 'the water is off the beach, the tsunami is coming' 'the red and yellow trains are heading for a head on << this is documented fact]

NOW, I am telling you all, "The fault lines for the break up of Thailand are set"

A German philosopher said truth goes through 3 stages.

1. it's opposed by ridicule

2. it's opposed by violence

3. when it becomes 'evident', the opponents claim it was their's all along

-------------------

My Solution and Plan is finally getting some traction. Some of the academics I talked to at their institutions in Nov and Dec, now realise I knew what I was talking about and are corresponding with me.

------

It is NOT fun being an 'I told you so' when people have died, an economy has been crippled, and the Kingdom is set to break up, especially when Thailand has the great potential to become a G30 Nation!

The Joseph Solution would bring Peace within weeks, Stability within months and Great Prosperity within years. That is 100%. The Joseph Plan is what is very Don Quixotish, 'tilting at windmills'; but, like I say, it has finally gotten a little bit of traction.

There are events which have been predicted to occur, by others, at the Autumn military promotions which could spell the end of Thailand.

Oh, There is a Joke sub Forum on TV.

I feel very much like Copying and Pasting everytime somebody prints, "Thailand getting back to Normal", or <<< That is the most deadly and hilarious thinking that anybody could have!!! [back to narmal YEA RIGHT!!!]

What has just occured was the Warning Shots!

You haven't really been telling us anything. Any time someone asks you to explain what the paln you mention is about you go silent. I hope you do choose to expand on the cryptic "plans" you've offered thus far. Now to the portion of your post I have highlighted. After the fires there is NO WAY the people of Bangkok will allow for the return of Thaksin, other than in an urn. He's crazy, but I think he's probably smart enough to realize that. If he continues with his fomenting of insurrection, that means to me he has a diffenet goal in mind rather than to return and rule (in person or defacto) over the whole of Thailand. That goal might be to create a division of the state as creating division is his chief characteristic. What then is the question. I just can't see that far. Personally,I think he has played his cards too soon and his bluff has been called. End of game or dam_n near.

Write it on your calendar then. Thailand is heading for break up? Does everybody already know that? I haven't seen the Nation Opinion pieces, YET.

Thaksin is SMALL potatoes, actually. If he fell into a hole, do you really believe Thailand would go back to 'narmal'? That IS dangerous thinking. Even the Great Sondhi now says the red movement is bigger than Thaksin. Believe him, now that he says it, if you don't want to believe me, who published that months ago, several times.

I knew Thaksin was a crook after my first 2 weeks in Thailand back in Dec 2003? When did you, first, realise it?

TV is not the place to describe The Joseph Plan. From my Posts, I have got a few intelligent and caring responses which have led to good leads. That is the purpose of posting here, to actuallydo something.

I now have emails going with a Thai professor, a retired General, and someone who worked in Washington for 10 years. They all like my concepts; they have good hearts for Thailand, and they can see it is possible to dislike Thaksin AND Sondhi. Only dupes take one side or the other with those two billionaires.

just a minute, I will copy some of their Replies.

[understand the reason I am showing these clips, is to show that 1. The Joseph Solution is gaining some traction. 2. There are Thais, closer to centers of influence that you or me who agree with my Concepts]

The Joseph Solution and The Joseph Plan are really the only chance Thailand has.

retired General " Hi Jospeh,I went thru your plan.Yes, It's very good, if you can do as your plan." << his emphasis copy and paste EGGsactly IF is the biggest word in the English language.

"Thanks for your mail and I will be back to U later.

>

> However, I agree with U for the most of things U mentioned, but the

> bad thing is the THai-Police Department (Most of them R bad more than

> good; they worked under the influence of the criminal Money not for

> the right or wrong according to the Laws)." my underline

------------------------------

Political Science Professor "Dear Joseph, All Thai are hoping for the better. How should they bring your model to practice? In what you you can contact to them? Are you contacting anyone apart from me? It's sad for the Thais for what happened to our country!Bye for now."

------------------------------------

Business owner "Joseph,

Abhisit is in a difficult position that, I am sure, even his critics do not envy. Sadly, good intention, brilliant mind, unrivalled articulation, etc.. (in the very same model as his mentor k. Chuan Leekpai) are not enough if he can not get people to carry out his plan. This is the same thing that plagued k. Chuan. ..."

--------------------------

works on International 'democracy' projects " I think it is not an easy answer to do or not to do anything in Thailand this moment. Today we have more than a group of redshirt ; the multicolored group has been gathering and parading to confront the situation. We Thais have been talking, searching and trying our bestEST way to find the solution but it seems useless. Unity is the most essential factor in this time. Frankly, I feel so desperate and am in sorrow of loosing hope and watching back on the bloody day in Thailand.

Joseph, I am just a little person and I might not have any influence to make a big change for the beloved country of mine. I am appreciated to learn your thought but it is not easy for me to express what I thought due to my English competency. But if you don't mind I still love to learn your sharp brain and want to be helpful." My underline

Rest assured the TJS and TJP are NOT stupid, NOT grandstanding, canNOT be discussed on TV, canNOT be published on a website

They ARE gaining some traction, though it is still a long shot. I am NOT Don Quixote.

---

It is ironic it is said Thais 'don't want to listen to foreigners' yet the squabbling KR brought a division of western ideas to Thailand, Pridi's 'socialiam' and Plaek's facism which made the irregular, convoluted democratic 'system' that has caused dysfunction for 80 years. Throw the CIA's influence in there and who says Thailand does not abide 'outside' interference. < That should be in the Joke subforum, as well.

There is NOTHING Thai about it, even the Privy council is a 'borowed' idea and the laws of Thailand were written by a Dane? or Flemish? lawyer.

The irony is, The Joseph Solution has been perfected by consulting with Thais and is really more a "Made In Thailand" architecture than what is place now.

[eggomaniac]

This Article is couple of bricks short of a load!

It's not a bad rough draft about 'some' of the key players. Is it, like, against some kind of law to detail any facts about Sondhi, or is he the writer's boss, or are Thais scared to?

Of all the men mentioned in the article, only 1 would tie Sondhi for having an influence on Thailand, going back to the days when he supported and helped bankroll Thaksin into power.

The article says a lot, which I agree with, about Thaksin; but not fitting Sondhi into the 'history' speaks volumes about the slant of the writer!

If the writer wants to come clean, don't forget to shampoo as well!

Well except for Thaksin she only spoke of people she knew in the context of now and '92.

Who knows where Sondhi was, but not in her circle, so there is no reason, nor need to

bring him in so 'you' see some balance, in your perspective only, when he isn't part of the story.

Well, Animatic, Sondhi was very prominent in 1992. He was THE publication arm of the movement.

So, I am STILL curious how 'lesser lights' deserve mention and a 'major player' is kept out of the 'history'.

I am taking a wild guess, but is Sondhi the writer's boss? It wouldn't surprise...

of course, I wasn't there in 1992 and am using wiki as a source "During Bloody May in 1992, Sondhi and his media played a significant role in opposing the military crackdown on protesters, by issuing a free special tabloid on the events while the government threatened to close his newspaper." Of course we ALL know EVERYTHING about Thailand in Wiki has been written by a writer that Thaksin hired, don't we?

At least your Post was on Topic. I barely found it in all of the Off Topic Buddism posts, all of which points have been discussed in the Buddhism subforum. 'trying to let go of facetious'

Edited May 26, 2010 by eggomaniac

[whybother]

If TJP and TJS can't be discussed on TVF, why bring it up?

Edited May 27, 2010 by whybother

[SomTumTiger]

If TJP and TJS can't be discussed on TVF, why bring it up?

Because he is a troll of course

[chaoyang]

The TJP and TJS are currently under discussion by the Sixth Interplanetary Council, which is now in the Dome of Silence to protect it from eavesdropping by the NSA and Google. Details cannot be publicly discussed for fear of neutron drone attacks.

Put on your aluminum foil hats and stay tuned ...

Edited May 27, 2010 by chaoyang

[SpoliaOpima]

My Solution and Plan is finally getting some traction. Some of the academics I talked to at their institutions in Nov and Dec, now realise I knew what I was talking about and are corresponding with me.

------

It is NOT fun being an 'I told you so' when people have died, an economy has been crippled, and the Kingdom is set to break up, especially when Thailand has the great potential to become a G30 Nation!

The Joseph Solution would bring Peace within weeks, Stability within months and Great Prosperity within years. That is 100%. The Joseph Plan is what is very Don Quixotish, 'tilting at windmills'; but, like I say, it has finally gotten a little bit of traction.

There are events which have been predicted to occur, by others, at the Autumn military promotions which could spell the end of Thailand.

Oh, There is a Joke sub Forum on TV.

I feel very much like Copying and Pasting everytime somebody prints, "Thailand getting back to Normal", or <<< That is the most deadly and hilarious thinking that anybody could have!!! [back to narmal YEA RIGHT!!!]

What has just occured was the Warning Shots!

I hope when you send out the 'Joseph Solution' that the document doesn't contain so many different font styles. And that the English grammar is correct, so that readers will take it seriously.

Any relation, by the way, to your recently announced 'Vishnu solution?'

[Publicus]

My Solution and Plan is finally getting some traction. Some of the academics I talked to at their institutions in Nov and Dec, now realise I knew what I was talking about and are corresponding with me.

------

It is NOT fun being an 'I told you so' when people have died, an economy has been crippled, and the Kingdom is set to break up, especially when Thailand has the great potential to become a G30 Nation!

The Joseph Solution would bring Peace within weeks, Stability within months and Great Prosperity within years. That is 100%. The Joseph Plan is what is very Don Quixotish, 'tilting at windmills'; but, like I say, it has finally gotten a little bit of traction.

There are events which have been predicted to occur, by others, at the Autumn military promotions which could spell the end of Thailand.

Oh, There is a Joke sub Forum on TV.

I feel very much like Copying and Pasting everytime somebody prints, "Thailand getting back to Normal", or <<< That is the most deadly and hilarious thinking that anybody could have!!! [back to narmal YEA RIGHT!!!]

What has just occured was the Warning Shots!

I hope when you send out the 'Joseph Solution' that the document doesn't contain so many different font styles. And that the English grammar is correct, so that readers will take it seriously.

Any relation, by the way, to your recently announced 'Vishnu solution?'

Probably a likely connection, but let's hope not. None the less, we may be hoping against hope. 

[Samuian]

Ah. the idealism of youth ... replaced by hardened cynicism. Happens to all of us to one degree or another.

Well written piece (no doubt honed by the fine editors at the NY Times), but my question to author: What have you done personally -- however large or small -- to advance democracy or human dignity since those heady days of 1992? Has it been enough?

It's a question we can all ask ourselves, whether the date is 1970 in Boulder, Colorado, 1989 in Beijing or 1992 in Bangkok. For most, the answer is no; we have been too busy chasing the almighty buck and its cousin currencies.

a fine scar from police baton sufficient?

the original active physical and verbal engaments with the authorities can't be proven any more...

I think it's also general attitude as in "refusing to chase the buck"!

but then I am a strong believer in "if the times are right" it will happen - see Mandela, the fall of the "iron curtain"..

Thailand and other "developing contrives" won't do the jump Europe needed centuries for- now be able to make a

quantum leap - give 'am some time... it will all happen and I think Thailand is very much on his way...

Edited June 3, 2010 by Samuian

[steveromagnino]

Totally agree, when ever a criticize a red or Thaksin, i am accused a yellow, when ever i criticize Abhisit or the yellows i get accused of being the reds, I hope there is a middle path in all of this and money and greed would not consume THailand into a land of Chaos, rather than a land of smiles

I have found my own middle path.

My approach is to only insult or criticise people who are neither red, yellow, multicolour or blue shirts.

So far, I have had good mileage insulting Manchester City (who are a very light blue, but possibly in for a bit of stick after they weren't able to beat spurs to 4th place and go to the Champions league); the All Blacks - pirenial chokers; the Boston Celtics (green); most horse racing jockeys; and also most of the ladies who work at Scores 'Gentleman's Club' in New York - they are ample up top, but it ain't clothing is ya knowse what Ize sayin!!!!

NOw, while it may be true that none of these deserve insults, it certainly has proved to be helpful in proving my neutrality with regards to Thai politics.

AS to Sondhi being her boss, that's most likely rubbish.

It's fairly obvious that she works for CHannel 3. AS most of you red shirters well know, the Maleenont family were one of the cofounding families of TRT, and were a stauchly pro government 'news' organisation often described by other channels as 'hot brainless slutty newsreading girls, some of whom are sleeping with senior TRT politicians'. Probably not so true though, not all of them are brainless :-).

I am sure you are well aware that Pracha Maleenont as well as being a cabinet minister also strongly relies on favourable government concession terms, similar to other businesses such as automotive parts/tax deals (Summit), telecommunications (AIS, Samart), or retail/agriculture (CP, 7:11, et al), because the entire Channel 3 free to air empire is based on the generosity of officials in granting the concession to get the channel 3 frequency.

That's her boss.

Now, while it may be true that CHannel 3 has become slightly less than hysterically pro Thaksin as it was since 2000, it has been far from neutral in their coverage - in fact channel 3 and 7 are best described as happy soap operas and brainless gameshows with smiling attractive women presenting slice of life news - you can't really rely on them for news if news doesn't mean game shows.

Why those f&*kwad red shirts decided it would be a good plan to burn down Channel 3 is beyond me. Probably just that the Maleenonts got sick of funding the protest, or maybe they never paid their share.

Or maybe the Maleenonts are 'fake reds'

See?

It's a political quagmire. Best to stick to insulting the women of the WWF. No shirts. No holds barred. No Mercy.

WWF

It's an attitude.

Edited June 3, 2010 by steveromagnino