Thaksin Puts The Battle On World Stage

[simon43]

The question is therefore how to get the reds to accept that the yellow has the most power in Thailand

I think they already know that - that is why they are demonstrating against so much power being held by so few

Simon

[Mario2008]

Post referring to some unknown person named "toxin" deleted.

[jdinasia]

The question is therefore how to get the reds to accept that the yellow has the most power in Thailand

I think they already know that - that is why they are demonstrating against so much power being held by so few

Simon

The "yellows" are not "elite" for the most part. The yellow shirt movement represents far more than just a few families that have power. (The red shirts represent the same type of power families as well -- by the design of who set them up in the first place. The rural poor and people with little understanding of the political situation in Thailand thinking that it is a grass-roots peasant movement notwithstanding. This includes organizations like CNN and BBC etc.) The yellows represent the burgeoning middle-class which is a relatively new demographic in Thailand. They are not just a "few."

The only way forward, seems to me, to be crushing the elite controlling group funding the reds --- AND ---- adopt much of the issues that belong to the legitimate (politically and humanitarily) reds that need and deserve a government that listens to them and attempts to provide for them. The rural poor deserve better schools, better welfare systems, more access to creating positive change in their lives. This was NEVER part of TRT or Thaksin's plan. Thaksin is a traditionalist when it comes to Thai politics and culture. He created a patron/client system with him handing out the rewards to those that voted for him. He bought local political machines like Newin and others in the way that such deals have always been done here.

Political reform needs to be STRONG and useful. Finding ways to break up the regional power structures is fundamental to the progress of Thailand. Creating laws that have BITE when people at ANY level are caught in corruption/graft. Making it impossible to hold public office at ANY level if you have been convicted of anything other than a misdemeanor is important. Holding political office holders to a higher standard is important.

Thailand can't change everything overnight but getting a strong start on this will certainly change things in a positive way. A time is coming where having a strong democracy may be the only thing that saves Thailand.

[clown]

The definition of terrorism in this article makes it pretty clear that PAD's seizure was an act of terrorism. 18 months and still not one arrest warrant has been issued. The investigation has been almost 100% complete for more than a year now.

I mean, please try and check the facts before posting, that way you won't impress people as being uninformed.

They have indeed been arrested ...and released shortly after on bail. Since then, the verdict on Sondhi has been delayed 8 times for the reason that he's always on holiday on the date that they set for the verdict. What a coincidence, huh? He should play the lottery, such a lucky guy.

And no, that's not a joke. Look it up, it's true.

And by the way, they didn't just seize the airports in Bangkok and government house, but also airports all around the country:

30,000 protesters, led by the People's Alliance for Democracy, occupied Sundaravej's Government House compound in central Bangkok, forcing him and his advisers to work out of a military command post. Thai riot police entered the occupied compound and delivered a court order for the eviction of protesters.[43] Chamlong Srimuang ordered 45 PAD guards to break into the main government building on Saturday.[44] 3 regional airports remain closed and 35 trains between Bangkok and the provinces were cancelled. Protesters raided the Phuket International Airport tarmac on the resort island of Phuket Province resulting to 118 flights cancelled or diverted, affecting 15,000 passengers.[45]

Protesters also blocked the entrance of the airports in Krabi and Hat Yai (which was later re-opened). Police issued arrest warrants for Sondhi Limthongkul and 8 other protest leaders on charges of insurrection, conspiracy, unlawful assembly and refusing orders to disperse.

Now, put yourself in the shoes of Sondhi here for a second and tell your people to break into the WhiteHouse, remain in there for 8 months, then tell them to take over JFK and LaGuardia airports, then send another group to take over Los Angeles, Dallas and Miami airports.

Of course you would be released on bail shortly after your arrest, the FBI wouldn't dare to arrest you. And the judge would of course allow you to go on holiday for the 8th time just as the verdict is supposed to be read.

[DoubleTrouble54]

The definition of terrorism in this article makes it pretty clear that PAD's seizure was an act of terrorism. 18 months and still not one arrest warrant has been issued. The investigation has been almost 100% complete for more than a year now.

I mean, please try and check the facts before posting, that way you won't impress people as being uninformed.

Why ? Are they in jail (the yellows) ?

[CPH]

The question is therefore how to get the reds to accept that the yellow has the most power in Thailand

I think they already know that - that is why they are demonstrating against so much power being held by so few

Simon

The "yellows" are not "elite" for the most part. The yellow shirt movement represents far more than just a few families that have power. (The red shirts represent the same type of power families as well -- by the design of who set them up in the first place. The rural poor and people with little understanding of the political situation in Thailand thinking that it is a grass-roots peasant movement notwithstanding. This includes organizations like CNN and BBC etc.) The yellows represent the burgeoning middle-class which is a relatively new demographic in Thailand. They are not just a "few."

The only way forward, seems to me, to be crushing the elite controlling group funding the reds --- AND ---- adopt much of the issues that belong to the legitimate (politically and humanitarily) reds that need and deserve a government that listens to them and attempts to provide for them. The rural poor deserve better schools, better welfare systems, more access to creating positive change in their lives. This was NEVER part of TRT or Thaksin's plan. Thaksin is a traditionalist when it comes to Thai politics and culture. He created a patron/client system with him handing out the rewards to those that voted for him. He bought local political machines like Newin and others in the way that such deals have always been done here.

Political reform needs to be STRONG and useful. Finding ways to break up the regional power structures is fundamental to the progress of Thailand. Creating laws that have BITE when people at ANY level are caught in corruption/graft. Making it impossible to hold public office at ANY level if you have been convicted of anything other than a misdemeanor is important. Holding political office holders to a higher standard is important.

Thailand can't change everything overnight but getting a strong start on this will certainly change things in a positive way. A time is coming where having a strong democracy may be the only thing that saves Thailand.

Crushing one group would only make things worse, because the other side would have far less reason to make changes to the current politics. The way forward is as you indicate better schools, better wellfare systems plus more real jobs and better financing in agriculture. This is big reforms and will most propably not happen in the near future, that' s the reason for the unrest now and in the future. (sorry to say).

[rubl]

The definition of terrorism in this article makes it pretty clear that PAD's seizure was an act of terrorism. 18 months and still not one arrest warrant has been issued. The investigation has been almost 100% complete for more than a year now.

I mean, please try and check the facts before posting, that way you won't impress people as being uninformed.

Why ? Are they in jail (the yellows) ?

The yellow leaders have been charged, went to court to acknowledge the charges, been granted bail. The judge decided there was only a small change they would jump bail and flee the country. Their process is moving with the speed of a snail, but that happens in Thailand. As long as the process is continuing, as long as they (or their lawer) answers court calls and be present when called upon, there is no reason to jail them.

[animatic]

The question is therefore how to get the reds to accept that the yellow has the most power in Thailand

I think they already know that - that is why they are demonstrating against so much power being held by so few

Simon

The "yellows" are not "elite" for the most part. The yellow shirt movement represents far more than just a few families that have power. (The red shirts represent the same type of power families as well -- by the design of who set them up in the first place. The rural poor and people with little understanding of the political situation in Thailand thinking that it is a grass-roots peasant movement notwithstanding. This includes organizations like CNN and BBC etc.) The yellows represent the burgeoning middle-class which is a relatively new demographic in Thailand. They are not just a "few."

The only way forward, seems to me, to be crushing the elite controlling group funding the reds --- AND ---- adopt much of the issues that belong to the legitimate (politically and humanitarily) reds that need and deserve a government that listens to them and attempts to provide for them. The rural poor deserve better schools, better welfare systems, more access to creating positive change in their lives. This was NEVER part of TRT or Thaksin's plan. Thaksin is a traditionalist when it comes to Thai politics and culture. He created a patron/client system with him handing out the rewards to those that voted for him. He bought local political machines like Newin and others in the way that such deals have always been done here.

Political reform needs to be STRONG and useful. Finding ways to break up the regional power structures is fundamental to the progress of Thailand. Creating laws that have BITE when people at ANY level are caught in corruption/graft. Making it impossible to hold public office at ANY level if you have been convicted of anything other than a misdemeanor is important. Holding political office holders to a higher standard is important.

Thailand can't change everything overnight but getting a strong start on this will certainly change things in a positive way. A time is coming where having a strong democracy may be the only thing that saves Thailand.

Crushing one group would only make things worse, because the other side would have far less reason to make changes to the current politics. The way forward is as you indicate better schools, better wellfare systems plus more real jobs and better financing in agriculture. This is big reforms and will most propably not happen in the near future, that' s the reason for the unrest now and in the future. (sorry to say).

Crushng the group that has fostered this violent insurection in the streets of Bangkok doesn't seem a bad idea.

There will always spring up new counterforces in financial juxtaposition to keep each side in line,

but this extreme use of violence, and abuse of the poor, for business/political profiteering is not to be condoned.

That they think this is reasonable to do just because they lost

a parliamentary balancing act ,show them unfit tor governance.

Smack down soooner than later.

Any MP involved needs:

2 years IN jail; no commutation on good behavior,

10 year ban, 10 million baht fine. Or stronger.

And that's for simple involvement, minor financing and going on stage to rant.

There must be a higher standard of behavior expected for elected representatives of the people.

Ethics.. such a dirty word in Thai POOlitical circles...

Jatuporn gets sterner measures, because he has gone way past the limit.

Glad to see he is finally up for impeachment... a year late at the least.

The punishment has to HURT, other wise; same same, every time they lose a power play.

This absurd and deadly game must stop HERE.

Edited May 28, 2010 by animatic

[asiawatcher]

“The Abhisit government, however, faces the burden of proof.”

No worse than the burden of being completely illegitimate.

And certainly no worse than being proven on video for calls to terrorism and burning Thailand. Video evidence fortunately is admissible in a court of law. Square Face just fell from his soap box.

[brianb1944]

“The Abhisit government, however, faces the burden of proof.”

No worse than the burden of being completely illegitimate.

Nothing illegitimate about current Govt. All elected by the people,and formed a coalition with Abhisit chosen by the peoples representatives to lead it.

[DoubleTrouble54]

The yellow leaders have been charged, went to court to acknowledge the charges, been granted bail. The judge decided there was only a small change they would jump bail and flee the country. Their process is moving with the speed of a snail, but that happens in Thailand. As long as the process is continuing, as long as they (or their lawer) answers court calls and be present when called upon, there is no reason to jail them.

The speed at which the process is moving is politically motivated and depends on the accused political color

We both know that .

[rubl]

The yellow leaders have been charged, went to court to acknowledge the charges, been granted bail. The judge decided there was only a small change they would jump bail and flee the country. Their process is moving with the speed of a snail, but that happens in Thailand. As long as the process is continuing, as long as they (or their lawer) answers court calls and be present when called upon, there is no reason to jail them.

The speed at which the process is moving is politically motivated and depends on the accused political color

We both know that .

The case of Arisman c.s. storming the ASIAN venue last year is still pending. Status of crackdown with faulty teargas canisters in June/July 2008 is under reeview(?), Thaksin's more than hundred deaths in the south has been swept under the rug, 2500+ drugwar deaths seem to have no one who cares.

What you mean to say (I think) is that there is room for improvement.

[rabo]

The definition of terrorism in this article makes it pretty clear that PAD's seizure was an act of terrorism. 18 months and still not one arrest warrant has been issued. The investigation has been almost 100% complete for more than a year now.

I mean, please try and check the facts before posting, that way you won't impress people as being uninformed.

They have indeed been arrested ...and released shortly after on bail. Since then, the verdict on Sondhi has been delayed 8 times for the reason that he's always on holiday on the date that they set for the verdict. What a coincidence, huh? He should play the lottery, such a lucky guy.

And no, that's not a joke. Look it up, it's true.

And by the way, they didn't just seize the airports in Bangkok and government house, but also airports all around the country:

30,000 protesters, led by the People's Alliance for Democracy, occupied Sundaravej's Government House compound in central Bangkok, forcing him and his advisers to work out of a military command post. Thai riot police entered the occupied compound and delivered a court order for the eviction of protesters.[43] Chamlong Srimuang ordered 45 PAD guards to break into the main government building on Saturday.[44] 3 regional airports remain closed and 35 trains between Bangkok and the provinces were cancelled. Protesters raided the Phuket International Airport tarmac on the resort island of Phuket Province resulting to 118 flights cancelled or diverted, affecting 15,000 passengers.[45]

Protesters also blocked the entrance of the airports in Krabi and Hat Yai (which was later re-opened). Police issued arrest warrants for Sondhi Limthongkul and 8 other protest leaders on charges of insurrection, conspiracy, unlawful assembly and refusing orders to disperse.

Now, put yourself in the shoes of Sondhi here for a second and tell your people to break into the WhiteHouse, remain in there for 8 months, then tell them to take over JFK and LaGuardia airports, then send another group to take over Los Angeles, Dallas and Miami airports.

Of course you would be released on bail shortly after your arrest, the FBI wouldn't dare to arrest you. And the judge would of course allow you to go on holiday for the 8th time just as the verdict is supposed to be read.

There is some good to this point, but .......

If a US president was impeached or otherwise removed for massive and obvious corruption, violations of human rights resulting in 1000s of deaths, silencing the media, usurping power by ignoring the other powers of government, and illegally selling all the national space assets to foreign powers....

and after removal his people came back to power through voter fraud....

those that protested as you describe might well be treated with greater leniency than Sondhi and his crew.

(meaning Thaksin is screwed on the world stage, to quickly revert to the threads topic)

Edited May 28, 2010 by rabo

[rubl]

In (one of) his recent interview K. Thaksin mentioned four attempts on his life while in office. I remember two (airplane and something unclear near the end). The airplane was an accident (look for the report), the last so unclear as to suggest fabrication. Two more cases, never heard of.

Does anyone in this forum have details or pointers?

[jayboy]

The "yellows" are not "elite" for the most part. The yellow shirt movement represents far more than just a few families that have power. (The red shirts represent the same type of power families as well -- by the design of who set them up in the first place. The rural poor and people with little understanding of the political situation in Thailand thinking that it is a grass-roots peasant movement notwithstanding. This includes organizations like CNN and BBC etc.) The yellows represent the burgeoning middle-class which is a relatively new demographic in Thailand. They are not just a "few."

The only way forward, seems to me, to be crushing the elite controlling group funding the reds --- AND ---- adopt much of the issues that belong to the legitimate (politically and humanitarily) reds that need and deserve a government that listens to them and attempts to provide for them. The rural poor deserve better schools, better welfare systems, more access to creating positive change in their lives. This was NEVER part of TRT or Thaksin's plan. Thaksin is a traditionalist when it comes to Thai politics and culture. He created a patron/client system with him handing out the rewards to those that voted for him. He bought local political machines like Newin and others in the way that such deals have always been done here.

As a respite from these tired platitudes (whether lies or ignorance is difficult to say), here's an intelligent independent viewpoint:

Criteria for terrorism charges are loose, restrictions on civil liberties tight. The violent immediacy of the Red Shirt protests has dulled in the aftermath of eighty-eight dead, but the country’s mood still hangs dark. Thailand’s democratic façade is chipping away to reveal an ugly autarchic underside.

To top off the recent weeks’ extrajudicial killings in Bangkok’s streets, the government heightened charges against an already-exiled former premier and dubiously detained a Chulalongkorn University lecturer this Tuesday. Two Red Shirt-affiliated foreigners were arrested Wednesday. These developments follow ongoing intimidating interrogations of “potential dissidents” (mostly students) by the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situations (CRES), and accusations against nine Red Shirt leaders of terrorism, not to mention an alleged 500 others among the rank-and-file.

The word of the hour is unsubstantiated: ill-founded investigations, unjustified detentions, unsound accusations of terrorism. But while the government still lacks public proof for terrorism charges leveled against its political opponents, it has certainly demonstrated its own reign of terror in the latest phase of the country’s unrest.

The use of the word “terrorist” is an effort to tap into a public fear that already exists. This has been done before. In the 1970s, the specter of communism afforded the military bureaucracy extra legroom from its citizens to dictate policy. Strategic allegations of “communism” and “anti-monarchism” at this time dehumanized leftist student protesters enough in the eyes of those pulling the triggers to allow the massacres of 1973 and 1976. These words have a single enabling purpose: to cast a political “other” worthy of violent repression.

Substituting “corruption” for “communism”, the military took the liberty to intercede again in 1992, this time faced with greater resistance. 2006 saw more of the same with Thaksin’s expulsion on corruption charges, which sparked the most recent cycle of protests as patience for political meddling ran out.

The civil and military elites’ most recent tactics to keep a stranglehold on Thailand’s nominal democracy are desperate. The attempted indictment of Red Shirts in an anti-monarchist plot in late April largely failed to get off the ground. Accordingly, “terrorist” is merely the latest trigger word: a catch-all for any elusive, influential enemy entity.

Decha Premrudeelert, a leading NGO advisor in the Northeast, reaffirmed the context for the government’s current tactic. “In the struggle for power, you have to create an identity for the opposition. In the Cold War, it was communists. Now it is terrorists.”

Calling the Red Shirt leaders “terrorists” and claiming there were 500 more within Ratchaprasong gave the military a blank check for violent intervention. The highly charged word was used to convince the public that the military wasn’t taking the lives of human beings when it shot indiscriminately into the crowd—it was simply fighting terrorism.

The government’s accusations are identical to charges against the Yellow Shirts for their 2008 occupation of the Government House and Suvarnabhumi Airport. But stagnated court cases over those allegations are still pending a year and a half later, whereas calling Red Shirts “terrorists” warranted immediate, brutal killings. Inadvertently, the aftermath of these charges has reaffirmed one of the Red Shirts’ core grievances: political double standards.

The Emergency Decree and the guise of fighting “terrorism” have allowed for grievous breaches of human rights. Impromptu detentions and interrogations without formal charges are stacking up, accompanied by the government’s promise to shoot “terrorists” on sight, as banks and government buildings burned earlier this week. As the situation has progressed, CRES’ recondite operations seem more and more fanatically illogical. Its undertakings have definitively failed to foster stability or reach a resolution – the sole initial goal of the organization.

Instead of spotlighting external actors guilty of inciting terror for political ends, recent accusations of terrorism have become part of the government’s own policy of fear.

Exiled Thaksin Shinawatra is a populist former premier and a businessman with highly suspect financial practices. He is not a terrorist. The added charge is an afterthought aimed at convincing the international community to aid in his fiercely sought extradition. The Yellow Shirts were charged with terrorism after the 2008 protests as an overstatement; an acquittal on those charges would absolve them altogether. The accusation against the Red Shirts was the most egregious: the charge was intended to dehumanize protesters, allowing soldiers to gun them down with impunity.

The United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship is not a terrorist organization. It is a fractured people’s movement for democracy, representing the disenfranchisement of the rural and urban poor. Its leaders are not terrorists; they espoused nonviolence even as the military swept them from the Ratchaprasong stage on 16 May 2010.

Cycles of corruption and intervention have pushed Thailand’s system of governance ever further from representative electoral democracy. Decades of coups, countercoups, protests, and reelections have stagnated democratic process, and terrorism charges against the two major political pressure groups only exacerbate this. This stagnation must end somewhere if Thailand is to move forward.

The question of the moment – whether this is a turning point in Thai politics – still lingers. But regardless of the pliability of Thailand’s political system, this is a new era: one that will not stand for age-old machinations. The Yellow Shirt and Red Shirt movements demonstrate hitherto unprecedented political awareness and agency of the people at large. Media and information availability prevent the continued concealment of military and bureaucratic interference in politics, even with ever-tightening censorship. The status quo is no longer an option.

Albeit disorganized and factionalized, the Red Shirts’ occupation of the capital embodies a new face of Thai politics that cannot be erased or rewritten: the socially and politically disenfranchised are seeking political voice and representation, now, and this ideal cannot be staunched with force. Deaths and dispersal will only intensify their cause.

Demands for democracy have been raw and vehement. Their physical manifestation in Bangkok has been dispelled for the time being, but the determination is no less powerful post-relocation. The use of political fear tactics – killing protesters, interrogations and detentions, charges of terrorism – will only further define the line beyond which the people will take no more. The current administration must reconcile with this truth.

[slapout]

1. Political motivated, 2. democracy, 3. justice, 4. equality, etc are oft used terms, by many, where Thailand/people are concerned. The first seems to be more a phrase for 'payback are hel_l' 2. I want it my way, 3. punish the other side first and last, 4. I will decide what the split should be. It os going to difficult to get 50 % of the populace much less 50% of the politicians/backers to agree. Let them wallow in their own muck, when/if they realize the problems, maybe then some positive changes will be forthcoming. Just remember how long Thailand has rocked along in this mode.

[jdinasia]

I love Jayboy ---- tosses out some vague insults without saying WHAT he objected to when quoting me ... THEN posts something written by someone else without citing the source.

It reads like something a student wrote for NewMandala and certainly doesn't come across as "independent" at all

[jdinasia]

BTW ---- I note that our "intelligent indepedent viewpoint" that Jayboy failed to cite IS in fact from NewMandala --- and written by a "guest contributor" with no history --- named ... "A. Smith" ---- yeay! Score another point for credibility!

[rubl]

As a respite from these tired platitudes (whether lies or ignorance is difficult to say), here's an intelligent independent viewpoint:

- rest deleted -

intelligent: mmmh, probably, but would expect that

independent: probably, not working for either side

viewpoint: correct

Unfortunately your viewpoint is somewhat different from my viewpoint. I also refrain from saying my viewpoint is 'intelligent' or 'independent'. It's just mine.

[jdinasia]

As a respite from these tired platitudes (whether lies or ignorance is difficult to say), here's an intelligent independent viewpoint:

- rest deleted -

intelligent: mmmh, probably, but would expect that

independent: probably, not working for either side

viewpoint: correct

Unfortunately your viewpoint is somewhat different from my viewpoint. I also refrain from saying my viewpoint is 'intelligent' or 'independent'. It's just mine.

You think Jayboy - A. Smith? possible --- it would fit.

But let's take one little bit --- cherry picking certainly --- and examine it. Because this strikes to the very core of the article.

Exiled Thaksin Shinawatra is a populist former premier and a businessman with highly suspect financial practices. He is not a terrorist.

The first sentence isn't even correct --- but comes close. ~~~~~Thaksin Shinawatra is a populist former premier that has been found huilty of corruption and had assets that he made illegally whilst in office seized as well as being on the run from a prison sentence handed down for abuse of power by a court that he said he trusted.~~~~~ That would be more accurate!

"He is not a terrorist" --- That is blatant bias -- an opinion --- a VERY large number of people disagree! Those are opinions too! We do not know how much evidence there is against Thaksin. We do know that the US has given Thailand information about money transfers from Dubai and that the US is believed to have given signals (communications intercepts) intelligence as well. There very well may be enough evidence to try AND convict Thaksin for terrorism.

[animatic]

Viewpoints can be as simple as a pin prick through the side of a box,

and watched on the opposing wall of the box.

Of course everything you see is upside down and backwards.

Which explains several posters viewpoints.

[rabo]

The "yellows" are not "elite" for the most part. The yellow shirt movement represents far more than just a few families that have power. (The red shirts represent the same type of power families as well -- by the design of who set them up in the first place. The rural poor and people with little understanding of the political situation in Thailand thinking that it is a grass-roots peasant movement notwithstanding. This includes organizations like CNN and BBC etc.) The yellows represent the burgeoning middle-class which is a relatively new demographic in Thailand. They are not just a "few."

The only way forward, seems to me, to be crushing the elite controlling group funding the reds --- AND ---- adopt much of the issues that belong to the legitimate (politically and humanitarily) reds that need and deserve a government that listens to them and attempts to provide for them. The rural poor deserve better schools, better welfare systems, more access to creating positive change in their lives. This was NEVER part of TRT or Thaksin's plan. Thaksin is a traditionalist when it comes to Thai politics and culture. He created a patron/client system with him handing out the rewards to those that voted for him. He bought local political machines like Newin and others in the way that such deals have always been done here.

As a respite from these tired platitudes (whether lies or ignorance is difficult to say), here's an intelligent independent viewpoint:

Criteria for terrorism charges are loose, restrictions on civil liberties tight. The violent immediacy of the Red Shirt protests has dulled in the aftermath of eighty-eight dead, but the country's mood still hangs dark. Thailand's democratic façade is chipping away to reveal an ugly autarchic underside.

To top off the recent weeks' extrajudicial killings in Bangkok's streets, the government heightened charges against an already-exiled former premier and dubiously detained a Chulalongkorn University lecturer this Tuesday. Two Red Shirt-affiliated foreigners were arrested Wednesday.

[snip long article, read above ......]

Clearly intelligent and clearly not independent, but professional. Without knowing who wrote it I would guess maybe a Thaksin lawyer but not Amsterdam. There are roughly 100 innuendous words against the "system" and not even a mention of burning, along with near complete omission of wrongdoing on the part of the red organization. Anyone who uses the crazy brit calling for arson and looting as evidence of oppression has a loose screw, or takes his propaganda work seriously.

A reprise form red/yellow? Think not, maybe an escalation. But it is tiring.

[jayboy]

BTW ---- I note that our "intelligent indepedent viewpoint" that Jayboy failed to cite IS in fact from NewMandala --- and written by a "guest contributor" with no history --- named ... "A. Smith" ---- yeay! Score another point for credibility!

Don't get so worked up.You are like Caliban raging at his own reflection in the mirror.Yes the piece is anonymous (not surprising in THailand's current climate of fear) and taken from New Mandala.So what? Try thinking about the content, avoid flailing around with your tired, stale and dishonest platitudes and if it isn't too much of a stretch deal with the substance.

[rubl]

As a respite from these tired platitudes (whether lies or ignorance is difficult to say), here's an intelligent independent viewpoint:

- rest deleted -

intelligent: mmmh, probably, but would expect that

independent: probably, not working for either side

viewpoint: correct

Unfortunately your viewpoint is somewhat different from my viewpoint. I also refrain from saying my viewpoint is 'intelligent' or 'independent'. It's just mine.

You think Jayboy - A. Smith? possible --- it would fit.

I must admit when I read 'as respite from tired platitudes ... intelligent, independent viewpoint' I more or less skipped the rest. Although I had to look it up first time I saw it, I prefer IMHO.

As for who is who, no idea. Myself I'm wondering about mazeltov, gm1955, clown and doubletrouble, maybe it's just me

[Ulysses G.]

Try thinking about the content

The "content" seems to purposely ignore just who has ruined much of Thailand's economy for months

and burned much of Bangkok to the ground.

Where is the "intelligent" part? It seems to be missing.

[BlackJack]

picture this

10 youngish thai red shirts leaders all rolling over on each other and spilling the beans

Thaksin family and associates bank accounts over the past 6 months being scanned

large amounts of cash being withdrawn prior to the big day

International travel entry and exit points being checked

Offers being given to red shirt leaders to walk from potential death penalty sentences - as long as they produce proof that someone BIG was behind the riots and someone BIG funded them

Of course evidence can be fabricated but why bother - theres so much around it just has to be collate

They are going to nail this guy and of course the only real winner will be

THE LAWYER (s)

har har

my condolences to the family

NOT

[Arjay]

Thaksin amended the Criminal Code while he was in power, purportedly to make it easier to deal with the yellow shirts' controversial anti-government activities. The new law listed action that affects state properties, disrupts public transport or causes serious damage to the economy, among others, as acts of terrorism. This means whereas the red shirts might be able to get away with the rally at Phan Fa Bridge, the occupation of the Rajprasong intersection borders on an act of terrorism itself, with or without the arson.

So it's completely Thaksin's fault that the red leaders are charged as terrorists.

To the "redshirts". You claim a double standard with no justice. I say did the "yellow shirts" burn and loot the airport?

[mazeltov]

BTW ---- I note that our "intelligent indepedent viewpoint" that Jayboy failed to cite IS in fact from NewMandala --- and written by a "guest contributor" with no history --- named ... "A. Smith" ---- yeay! Score another point for credibility!

Don't get so worked up.You are like Caliban raging at his own reflection in the mirror.Yes the piece is anonymous (not surprising in THailand's current climate of fear) and taken from New Mandala.So what? Try thinking about the content, avoid flailing around with your tired, stale and dishonest platitudes and if it isn't too much of a stretch deal with the substance.

I like the new rating system at New Mandela.

That will make the ultra right wing extremist and their fan team of the international community of beer bar patons in Thailand even more angry in their rants about the opinions the sober academics and educated contributors at NM have.

Thumbs down to the yellow propaganda lies.

[koosdeboer]

Unmasked: Thailand's men in black

By Kenneth Todd Ruiz and Olivier Sarbil

http://atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE29Ae02.html

Red lovers please read.

[jdinasia]

The "yellows" are not "elite" for the most part. The yellow shirt movement represents far more than just a few families that have power. (The red shirts represent the same type of power families as well -- by the design of who set them up in the first place. The rural poor and people with little understanding of the political situation in Thailand thinking that it is a grass-roots peasant movement notwithstanding. This includes organizations like CNN and BBC etc.) The yellows represent the burgeoning middle-class which is a relatively new demographic in Thailand. They are not just a "few."

The only way forward, seems to me, to be crushing the elite controlling group funding the reds --- AND ---- adopt much of the issues that belong to the legitimate (politically and humanitarily) reds that need and deserve a government that listens to them and attempts to provide for them. The rural poor deserve better schools, better welfare systems, more access to creating positive change in their lives. This was NEVER part of TRT or Thaksin's plan. Thaksin is a traditionalist when it comes to Thai politics and culture. He created a patron/client system with him handing out the rewards to those that voted for him. He bought local political machines like Newin and others in the way that such deals have always been done here.

As a respite from these tired platitudes (whether lies or ignorance is difficult to say), here's an intelligent independent viewpoint:

Criteria for terrorism charges are loose, restrictions on civil liberties tight. The violent immediacy of the Red Shirt protests has dulled in the aftermath of eighty-eight dead, but the country's mood still hangs dark. Thailand's democratic façade is chipping away to reveal an ugly autarchic underside.

To top off the recent weeks' extrajudicial killings in Bangkok's streets, the government heightened charges against an already-exiled former premier and dubiously detained a Chulalongkorn University lecturer this Tuesday. Two Red Shirt-affiliated foreigners were arrested Wednesday.

[snip long article, read above ......]

Clearly intelligent and clearly not independent, but professional. Without knowing who wrote it I would guess maybe a Thaksin lawyer but not Amsterdam. There are roughly 100 innuendous words against the "system" and not even a mention of burning, along with near complete omission of wrongdoing on the part of the red organization. Anyone who uses the crazy brit calling for arson and looting as evidence of oppression has a loose screw, or takes his propaganda work seriously.

A reprise form red/yellow? Think not, maybe an escalation. But it is tiring.

It is clearly a propoganda piece --- starts off with calling the government's action extra-judicial killing without ever mentioning who shot whom and that those facts are not clear.

It whitewashes Thaksin (mentions his money being dicey) and never mentions the real extra-judicial killings that happened in Thailand.

It doesn't begin to address the armed and violent reds ... never mentions their extreme violence and threats of violence.

It doesn't mention that the army was attempting containment and that the deaths mostly occured when people left the safety of Rachprasong and went out to attack the government troops.

Purely propoganda.

Now Jayboy you have indirectly accused me of lies no less than twice in this thread. What have I lied about?