Thais Are Lacking In True Faith

[webfact]

WEEKEND BRUNCH

Thais are lacking in true faith

By Nophakhun Limsamarnphun

BANGKOK: -- Phra Paisam, a former student activist and monk of more than 25 years, believes that a lack of Buddhist fundamentals has exacerbated the political crisis

Phra Paisarn Wisalo (Wongworawisit), who has been in the monkhood for the last 27 years, laments the recent deadly political conflict in Thailand.

Phra Paisarn, 53, sees the 89 deaths and nearly 2,000 injuries as the consequences of a wicked society.

"In other words, people could not resolve the conflict in a peaceful way as both sides wanted to hurt one another, so violence ensued.

"Neither side was ready to step back. Hence, the clash was deadly and devastating.

"Yet, we have to recognise that there are also issues of economic inequality and injustice which helped divide society in the first place," says Phra Paisarn, who graduated from Thammasat University.

In his college days, Phra Paisarn was an activist who advocated non-violent protest during the October 1976 political conflict. He was detained for three days after security forces stormed Thammasat University during the height of that crisis.

In 1983, he was ordained in Bangkok and began to study Buddhism and advanced meditation with Luang Por Thien, before spending his first year in the monkhood at Wat Pa Sukotho in the northeastern province of Chaiyaphum.

In the eyes of Phra Paisarn, who currently practices Buddhism at both Wat Pa Sukotho and Wat Pa Mahawan, also in Chaiyaphum, many Thais are Buddhist only in the context of Buddhist rituals.

"They hardly follow the teachings of the Lord Buddha in a substantial way, so emotion prevailed during the height of the latest conflict [resulting in the killings, rioting, arson and property damage]."

"Devout Buddhists would have the wisdom, the capacity and willingness to endure [which would have helped prevent the conflict from getting out of hand]. Devout Buddhists would not believe unfounded rumours, but what we saw was rather the opposite.

"Many people were blinded and misled into believing many things which later on proved to be untrue.

"It's also sad to see that each side in the conflict has tried hard to legitimise what they did [after the protesters were dispersed on May 19 and the riots were stopped], so it has become a game of finger-pointing on the streets, on TV and radio, and in Parliament [during the no-confidence debate].

"No one wants to take the blame or moral responsibility for what has happened. There is no enlightenment, wisdom, compassion or kindness.

"In hindsight, I regret that the government did not give peace negotiations more chance to end the conflict before force was used. However, it was obvious that the red-shirt protesters also did not give peace a greater chance. Both sides were so tightly locked into this conflict," says Phra Paisarn.

Given the growing polarisation of Thai society, Phra Paisarn decided to launch a Facebook page about eight months ago, to stay up-to-date on the situation and disseminate his views digitally.

"In my opinion, information technology helps broaden one's worldview and thus make us wise. However, there are also many rumours and lies on the Internet, so we must be careful.

"I spend about an hour a day writing on my Facebook page. Besides my own points of view, it's also a great way to listen to other views. I prefer Facebook to Twitter, as the latter's messages are too short, so something important could be missing.

"Looking forward, I think society will have to start the process of reconciliation by setting the record straight on the moral, legal, then, the political issues," he says.

-- The Nation 2010-06-05

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[Publicus]

A monk with a computer is radical but the same same old message is hardly not. However, he's right that Thais, whose Buddhism is the minority Theravada cult of the clergy (songhla) in contrast to the majority Mahayana Buddists who neighbor Thailand and populate other parts of the world, and who when it comes to scripture and its meaning and interpretations are more akin to Christian Protestants, are more concerned with ritual than with content or substance. So my take of contemporary Thai Theravada Buddhism and the monk's statements above is that no matter how your slice it, it's still baloney (bologna).

Edited June 5, 2010 by Publicus

[Heng]

IMO Thailand would be more competitive if they could do away with religion (and superstition while they're at it) entirely. Kill as much of it as you can, as China did. Or at least try to make it more ceremonial (to preserve tradition) but kill belief and blind faith.

This waiting until the next life, heaven, nirvana, etc. just keeps a yoke on productivity, especially when the locals already have a tendency towards a lack of ambition, drive, discipline, etc.

If some people want to practice 'faith' in private, that's their business.

[bangon04]

IMO Thailand would be more competitive if they could do away with religion (and superstition while they're at it) entirely. Kill as much of it as you can, as China did. Or at least try to make it more ceremonial (to preserve tradition) but kill belief and blind faith.

This waiting until the next life, heaven, nirvana, etc. just keeps a yoke on productivity, especially when the locals already have a tendency towards a lack of ambition, drive, discipline, etc.

If some people want to practice 'faith' in private, that's their business.

The Sangha Therevada Corporation of Thailand has a very strong financial reason to preserve the superstitious observance of their rituals. Not only is it a major money-making concern, it is also a major player in preserving the status quo in Thai society. It is perfectly adapted to the "Form over Substance" and Sanook aspects of Thai life.

Enter a major temple complex in Bangkok and count the number of "activities" available to visitors, each with a collection box - anything from ring the bells, pour the oil, light the candles, rent the yellow plastic bucket, rent the garland, rent the silk, tell your future, rub the gold, staple the banknote, shake the sticks, release the birds, release the eels, release the turtles, pour the water, fill the food bowl, plant a flower, etc etc etc.

Now there are surely many devout monks in temples across the country, trying to give sincere moral guidance to people, and there are surely people who meditate deeply while performing these various rituals as a focus for their thoughts, but for many temple goers the temple is a public display of merit-making designed to show "merit".

Let us not also forget that there are temples in Bangkok with a large number of very well-fed monks with the latest cellphones, laptops etc - a symptom of the prosperity.

[eggomaniac]

If this Topic interests anyone, they should hop over to Community/Buddhist sub forum where there are Threads on this Topic and links to many informative Essays, written by other monks, as well.

Phra Paisam could have, also, mentioned the rampant alcohol usage and the 'you know what' that goes on in Pattaya and Suhkumvit, Phuket, Ko Chang....... and so on........ More people die from alcohol's direct affects than the recent riots, though that could even up next year, easily.

---

It is ironic, what, that Thailand is listed as being a 96% Buddhist Nation. Those other 4% sure cause a lot of trouble, eh?

Seriously, tough, I, for one, believe that 96% of Thais are 'good', hard working, lovers of life and peace and victims of their own silence while a corrupt and broken, Made in the West combination Communist/Facist system dictates that Gang leaders will rumble to get in the seats of corruption. When I think of those armies of street vendors and motorcycle taxis drivers who work 360 days per year to eke out a living, those are the people I feel sad for. If they don't know 'Buddhism' they know 'good'!

If Buddhism needs, yet another, reformation and revival, [Thailand has seen a few], it is nothing compared to overhaul that the political system needs!

-----------

Now that the big push and goal is to get back to ABnormal, guess what next year has in store???

[ChiangMaiFun]

It's absolutely correct that Thais are hardly Buddhists at all - it's self evident.

[yesdavy]

How do saving face and Buddhism square up? If it comes to either saving face or Bhuddist principles, which takes precedence?

[yesdavy]

It's absolutely correct that Thais are hardly Buddhists at all - it's self evident.

Please elaborate, this is interesting.

[ChiangMaiFun]

IMO Thailand would be more competitive if they could do away with religion (and superstition while they're at it) entirely. Kill as much of it as you can, as China did. Or at least try to make it more ceremonial (to preserve tradition) but kill belief and blind faith.

This waiting until the next life, heaven, nirvana, etc. just keeps a yoke on productivity, especially when the locals already have a tendency towards a lack of ambition, drive, discipline, etc.

If some people want to practice 'faith' in private, that's their business.

You are measuring 'success' in terms of 'productivity' - if Buddhism was practised here (it is not) then there would be a very keen awareness of personal responsibility and committment to the betterhood of all.

Buddhists do NOT wait until the next life - Buddhism teaches NOW is the time to act - so I'm afraid you have not understood this concept or have confused two things: Buddhsim and Thailand.

[fabianfred]

IMO Thailand would be more competitive if they could do away with religion (and superstition while they're at it) entirely. Kill as much of it as you can, as China did. Or at least try to make it more ceremonial (to preserve tradition) but kill belief and blind faith.

This waiting until the next life, heaven, nirvana, etc. just keeps a yoke on productivity, especially when the locals already have a tendency towards a lack of ambition, drive, discipline, etc.

If some people want to practice 'faith' in private, that's their business.

spoken like a true communist..... I suppose you were one of chaiman mao's red guards who destroyed Tibet in the 1950's...in your past life

[fabianfred]

A monk with a computer is radical but the same same old message is hardly not. However, he's right that Thais, whose Buddhism is the minority Theravada cult of the clergy (songhla) in contrast to the majority Mahayana Buddists who neighbor Thailand and populate other parts of the world, and who when it comes to scripture and its meaning and interpretations are more akin to Christian Protestants, are more concerned with ritual than with content or substance. So my take of contemporary Thai Theravada Buddhism and the monk's statements above is that no matter how your slice it, it's still baloney (bologna).

Thank god it is only your take on things....and not the truth......you must have swallowed some mahayana book which looks down it's nose at the Theravada teachings.

[ChiangMaiFun]

A monk with a computer is radical but the same same old message is hardly not. However, he's right that Thais, whose Buddhism is the minority Theravada cult of the clergy (songhla) in contrast to the majority Mahayana Buddists who neighbor Thailand and populate other parts of the world, and who when it comes to scripture and its meaning and interpretations are more akin to Christian Protestants, are more concerned with ritual than with content or substance. So my take of contemporary Thai Theravada Buddhism and the monk's statements above is that no matter how your slice it, it's still baloney (bologna).

Thank god it is only your take on things....and not the truth......you must have swallowed some mahayana book which looks down it's nose at the Theravada teachings.

To be fair... Theravada does tend to give a more 'it's all about my enlightenment' rather than a 'I want to help others' methodology don't you think? but I fear we are veering off topic...

[jayjay0]

He could have used the word Christian instead of Buddhist and it would still be true.

Makes no difference the principles of both are overlooked by the greedy all for me and to heck with you people.

Example do you really think those supposedly peaceful protesters on leave from there rice paddies were thinking of all the people they put out of work in the area they took over. Or do you think they were concerned with the pay check they were to receive for there camp out.

On the other hand look at all the people who volunteered for free to clean up the mess left by the supposedly peaceful protesters. I doubt that any of them had the same view as wsome of the atheistic posters on this board.

[jdinasia]

Speaking about religion (ANY religion) seems to drag out the self-professed experts making all sorts of claims.

Theravada Buddhism isn't a cult. The neighbors of Thailand practice the same form of Buddhism for the most part. Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, Bangladesh, Thailand and perhaps most importantly Sri Lanka all practice Theravada Buddhism. Songkla is a city/province in Southern Thailand. The Sangha was established by the Buddha.

Buddhism teaches many things including right action and right speech, people of faith*, including people that wear orange, almost always fail to live up to the IDEALS of any religion. Lay people of any religion are usually less rigorous in practice than those who are ordained. People who are ordained often fail to live up to the ideals as well.

To state that "Buddhism is not practiced here" besides being inaccurate is also not "right speech". The middle path, while guided by the dharma, is actually individual in nature and thus judging others by your own practice is an exercise in futility.

Edited June 5, 2010 by jdinasia

[crusader79]

IMO Thailand would be more competitive if they could do away with religion (and superstition while they're at it) entirely. Kill as much of it as you can, as China did. Or at least try to make it more ceremonial (to preserve tradition) but kill belief and blind faith.

This waiting until the next life, heaven, nirvana, etc. just keeps a yoke on productivity, especially when the locals already have a tendency towards a lack of ambition, drive, discipline, etc.

If some people want to practice 'faith' in private, that's their business.

The tenor of this thread seems to be that Thai Buddhism is already largely ceremonial. The last thing Thailand needs is to imitate soulless, hypermaterialistic, dog-eat-dog China. There even the government now recognizes the tremendous social damage caused by the spiritual vacuum it created.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Speaking about religion (ANY religion) seems to drag out the self-professed experts making all sorts of claims.

Theravada Buddhism isn't a cult. The neighbors of Thailand practice the same form of Buddhism for the most part. Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, Bangladesh, Thailand and perhaps most importantly Sri Lanka all practice Theravada Buddhism. Songkla is a city/province in Southern Thailand. The Sangha was established by the Buddha.

Buddhism teaches many things including right action and right speech, people of faith*, including people that wear orange, almost always fail to live up to the IDEALS of any religion. Lay people of any religion are usually less rigorous in practice than those who are ordained. People who are ordained often fail to live up to the ideals as well.

To state that "Buddhism is not practiced here" besides being inaccurate is also not "right speech". The middle path, while guided by the dharma, is actually individual in nature and thus judging others by your own practice is an exercise in futility.

I should have said 'rarely practiced' because most Thais whilst they would say they 'are' Buddhist have more connection with Animism and asking ‘favours’ from images of the Buddha than with understanding the larger concepts of karma etc.

Personally I just don’t see – viewing Thai society – that Buddhism is put into practice much at all – this is a generalization I accept and there will be those who do have an understanding and try to apply this in their lives - but generally in the way Thais live their lives and treat others - I just don't see it.

[junglist]

IMO Thailand would be more competitive if they could do away with religion (and superstition while they're at it) entirely. Kill as much of it as you can, as China did. Or at least try to make it more ceremonial (to preserve tradition) but kill belief and blind faith.

This waiting until the next life, heaven, nirvana, etc. just keeps a yoke on productivity, especially when the locals already have a tendency towards a lack of ambition, drive, discipline, etc.

If some people want to practice 'faith' in private, that's their business.

spoken like a true communist..... I suppose you were one of chaiman mao's red guards who destroyed Tibet in the 1950's...in your past life

i second your view.

[Heng]

Past lives, future lives... all take away from being responsible for one's actions in this life.

When the poor sacrifice their meager resources to religion (making merit for example) they are taking away from their own potential in hopes of cashing in on something that doesn't exist.

[jdinasia]

Past lives, future lives... all take away from being responsible for one's actions in this life.

When the poor sacrifice their meager resources to religion (making merit for example) they are taking away from their own potential in hopes of cashing in on something that doesn't exist.

Hmmmm Let's see how this works logically ----- Heng is claiming something can be proven to not exist when in fact it can't. In this case it is the religion of atheism. Can't prove a God doesn't exist but wants us to take it on faith

For those that dn't see Buddhism put into practice by MANY Thai people on a daily basis in their lives, well, they just don't know that many Thai people I guess.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Past lives, future lives... all take away from being responsible for one's actions in this life.

When the poor sacrifice their meager resources to religion (making merit for example) they are taking away from their own potential in hopes of cashing in on something that doesn't exist.

With respect that is just not true... it is because we realise that there is debt to be paid that should make us more responsible. It is because people do not understand this that they are so selfish - if you accept the hypothesis for a moment - it is logical if we know that these debts are to be repaid to be more conscious of our actions. The rub is people do not really understand or believe it.

[SomTumTiger]

Live and let Live - and in the meantime <deleted>. Good a philosophy as any.

[TPI]

Speaking about religion (ANY religion) seems to drag out the self-professed experts making all sorts of claims.

Theravada Buddhism isn't a cult. The neighbors of Thailand practice the same form of Buddhism for the most part. Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, Bangladesh, Thailand and perhaps most importantly Sri Lanka all practice Theravada Buddhism. Songkla is a city/province in Southern Thailand. The Sangha was established by the Buddha.

Buddhism teaches many things including right action and right speech, people of faith*, including people that wear orange, almost always fail to live up to the IDEALS of any religion. Lay people of any religion are usually less rigorous in practice than those who are ordained. People who are ordained often fail to live up to the ideals as well.

To state that "Buddhism is not practiced here" besides being inaccurate is also not "right speech". The middle path, while guided by the dharma, is actually individual in nature and thus judging others by your own practice is an exercise in futility.

I should have said 'rarely practiced' because most Thais whilst they would say they 'are' Buddhist have more connection with Animism and asking 'favours' from images of the Buddha than with understanding the larger concepts of karma etc.

Personally I just don't see – viewing Thai society – that Buddhism is put into practice much at all – this is a generalization I accept and there will be those who do have an understanding and try to apply this in their lives - but generally in the way Thais live their lives and treat others - I just don't see it.

After 11 years....I agree, greed seems to be the ranking action!

[Heng]

IMO Thailand would be more competitive if they could do away with religion (and superstition while they're at it) entirely. Kill as much of it as you can, as China did. Or at least try to make it more ceremonial (to preserve tradition) but kill belief and blind faith.

This waiting until the next life, heaven, nirvana, etc. just keeps a yoke on productivity, especially when the locals already have a tendency towards a lack of ambition, drive, discipline, etc.

If some people want to practice 'faith' in private, that's their business.

The Sangha Therevada Corporation of Thailand has a very strong financial reason to preserve the superstitious observance of their rituals. Not only is it a major money-making concern, it is also a major player in preserving the status quo in Thai society. It is perfectly adapted to the "Form over Substance" and Sanook aspects of Thai life.

Enter a major temple complex in Bangkok and count the number of "activities" available to visitors, each with a collection box - anything from ring the bells, pour the oil, light the candles, rent the yellow plastic bucket, rent the garland, rent the silk, tell your future, rub the gold, staple the banknote, shake the sticks, release the birds, release the eels, release the turtles, pour the water, fill the food bowl, plant a flower, etc etc etc.

Now there are surely many devout monks in temples across the country, trying to give sincere moral guidance to people, and there are surely people who meditate deeply while performing these various rituals as a focus for their thoughts, but for many temple goers the temple is a public display of merit-making designed to show "merit".

Let us not also forget that there are temples in Bangkok with a large number of very well-fed monks with the latest cellphones, laptops etc - a symptom of the prosperity.

That's pretty much one of the core concepts of any organized religion. Organized finance and accounting to keep the lifeblood of the religion (cash, not faith) rolling in.

[dukkha]

It's absolutely correct that Thais are hardly Buddhists at all - it's self evident.

Like the Phillipines, it is nominally Catholic, Thailand is nominally buddhist but the practise seems limited to some voodoo animist cults.......weddings funerals and other ceremonies, oooops cremations, get an audience but doubt whether it comes from any deep religious conviction to treading the Middle Path...

[Heng]

Past lives, future lives... all take away from being responsible for one's actions in this life.

When the poor sacrifice their meager resources to religion (making merit for example) they are taking away from their own potential in hopes of cashing in on something that doesn't exist.

Hmmmm Let's see how this works logically ----- Heng is claiming something can be proven to not exist when in fact it can't. In this case it is the religion of atheism. Can't prove a God doesn't exist but wants us to take it on faith

For those that dn't see Buddhism put into practice by MANY Thai people on a daily basis in their lives, well, they just don't know that many Thai people I guess.

Hmmm, let's clarify. I'm saying something that cannot be proven to exist does not exist in my opinion. I agree that that's pretty much what the believers are doing, which again IMO results in a lot of absolving oneself of responsibility for this particular life. Two common ones (label them whatever religion or even superstition if you wish) are:

*He's not prosperous because he's diligent, he simply was a good person in prior life.*

*I'm not living in poverty because I'm lazy, I simply wasn't good enough in a prior life.*

[ChiangMaiFun]

Past lives, future lives... all take away from being responsible for one's actions in this life.

When the poor sacrifice their meager resources to religion (making merit for example) they are taking away from their own potential in hopes of cashing in on something that doesn't exist.

Hmmmm Let's see how this works logically ----- Heng is claiming something can be proven to not exist when in fact it can't. In this case it is the religion of atheism. Can't prove a God doesn't exist but wants us to take it on faith

For those that dn't see Buddhism put into practice by MANY Thai people on a daily basis in their lives, well, they just don't know that many Thai people I guess.

Hmmm, let's clarify. I'm saying something that cannot be proven to exist does not exist in my opinion. I agree that that's pretty much what the believers are doing, which again IMO results in a lot of absolving oneself of responsibility for this particular life. Two common ones (label them whatever religion or even superstition if you wish) are:

*He's not prosperous because he's diligent, he simply was a good person in prior life.*

*I'm not living in poverty because I'm lazy, I simply wasn't good enough in a prior life.*

Try:

'he has worked hard and achieved a material result from his actions - the opportunities were the result of karma - and he made the best/worse out of those opportunities - now it's what he/she does with those opportunities'

or

'he/she has a health problem - as the result of some lesson that could be learnt - but as karma is dynamic and changing - he/she is fighting to get better'

[Heng]

Past lives, future lives... all take away from being responsible for one's actions in this life.

When the poor sacrifice their meager resources to religion (making merit for example) they are taking away from their own potential in hopes of cashing in on something that doesn't exist.

With respect that is just not true... it is because we realise that there is debt to be paid that should make us more responsible. It is because people do not understand this that they are so selfish - if you accept the hypothesis for a moment - it is logical if we know that these debts are to be repaid to be more conscious of our actions. The rub is people do not really understand or believe it.

Are you talking karmic debts or literal debts? If the former, why do you assume it to be a debt? Seeing that none of this can be proved anyway, IMO it's not a question of understanding, but just a square one issue of belief ...or not.

There is somewhat of a natural balance in nature, and IMO Buddhism is just one manifestation of some people sensing this and slapping a philosophy onto it. Just because there is supposed to be an equal and opposite action in physics and that in nature homeostasis is the norm doesn't mean there has to be an equal and opposite action for each action that we make, and that their is an infinite time delay potential between each action and reaction.

[Heng]

Past lives, future lives... all take away from being responsible for one's actions in this life.

When the poor sacrifice their meager resources to religion (making merit for example) they are taking away from their own potential in hopes of cashing in on something that doesn't exist.

Hmmmm Let's see how this works logically ----- Heng is claiming something can be proven to not exist when in fact it can't. In this case it is the religion of atheism. Can't prove a God doesn't exist but wants us to take it on faith

For those that dn't see Buddhism put into practice by MANY Thai people on a daily basis in their lives, well, they just don't know that many Thai people I guess.

Hmmm, let's clarify. I'm saying something that cannot be proven to exist does not exist in my opinion. I agree that that's pretty much what the believers are doing, which again IMO results in a lot of absolving oneself of responsibility for this particular life. Two common ones (label them whatever religion or even superstition if you wish) are:

*He's not prosperous because he's diligent, he simply was a good person in prior life.*

*I'm not living in poverty because I'm lazy, I simply wasn't good enough in a prior life.*

Try:

'he has worked hard and achieved a material result from his actions - the opportunities were the result of karma - and he made the best/worse out of those opportunities - now it's what he/she does with those opportunities'

or

'he/she has a health problem - as the result of some lesson that could be learnt - but as karma is dynamic and changing - he/she is fighting to get better'

For myself, in both of those cases (and often in real life as well), those are both instances of trying to absolve oneself (and sometimes others) of responsibility. In the former case we're attempting to lower the value of hard work and in the latter, we're trying to lower the value of taking care of one's health (it's not condomless sex, heavy drinking, or drug use... but apparently whatever you did in a past life that has you ill in this one).

*If it were a car accident, plane crash, it's suddenly not as much drunk driving or pilot error but all of the combined karma of the victims.*

*Bank robbery, real estate scam, mostly on the victims again, same reason.*

[ChiangMaiFun]

Nope there is no denigration of hard work - but the opportunity is karmic - some born in the West some in Sudan

[Robby nz]

A true story for you all:

Recently the lady who lived next door to us died and about a week after two trucks turned up accompnied by a monk.

We thought she must have left something to the temple but no as it turned out the monk had been having an affair with this lady for the last 10 years and in that time had bought her a lot of furnature and had arrived after her death to claim it all back.

The ladies brother arrived and argued with the monk who called his friend who is a cop, the cop arrived and sent the brother packing with a couple of photos, of monks incidentaly,

The trucks left for parts unknown loaded with very nice looking furnature.

How could I put my faith in a man like that monk or not? Maybe the monkhood has themselves to blame.