Most Thai Teachers Fail In Their Own Subjects

[venturalaw]

I'm not even slightly surprised. My wife has a friend, a Thai woman in her fifties, who teaches English in school. I've yet to hear her speak a single word of English. If I try speaking to her she just grins at me vacantly. What chance have the children she's supposed to be teaching?

I applied for a teaching position at Chiang Mai University. I am an attorney licensed to practice law in the States.

I attended the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) but did not complete a bachelor's degree. I dropped out to go to work for reasons that I will not go into here. Approximately ten years later I entered law school and graduated near the top of my class.

When I was called by the Chiang Mai University English dept. regarding my application, I was asked why I had not listed a bachelor's degree. After explaining that I do not have one but that I do have a Juris Doctorate degree, that I have taught legal theory at various seminars and therefore do have teaching experience, the lady informed me that I was "not qualified" to teach English.

If the check boxes are not checked, one is not qualified. Simple as that.

[GingerLing]

I used to work with a chap in the UK on technical support who was completely useless, didn't know his arse from a hard drive. Now he is lecturering at an Further Education college. <deleted>!

It is surely similar in blighty. That said I don't think I would pass an english test now, coz I rites like i speeks.

[dixter]

Not that many would pass, if today done hand written tests no computers etc, 2% would be lucky to pass.

Took longer to learn in my day but it stuck!

I see that you have managed to remember all your grammar lessons. init!

[puipuitom]

Not only the teachers..

I do business with Thailand in food products since 1978. By FAR the mayority of the export / sales / etc managers hardly know their own product.

Specific information to convince European food technologists ? close-to-zero

Understanding of export markets, competition of other origins.. they even do not WANT to know.

Prices etc .. must ask the Emperial Highness, the Genius of the planet, the all himself, called; ZHE BOZZ.

In fact , only own initiative.. to take the foreign buyer to the restaurant the BOZZ decided already.

But .. never tell them, they have some lack of knowledge / have to spend some time in product knowlegde, as that is "loosing face"

Result: go to China.

[runker]

I'm married to a former teacher and two of her sisters are also teachers. As for speaking English my sister-in-law is poor at best, however I had to watch my grammar and spelling when I write to them.

[zeazon]

quality of teacher problem is not a surprise. we'd rather want to see how someone will mend it.

btw, i think Thais give too much to temples and the money just sit there in the temples.

if just, says, one-fourth of all money going to monks, are instead reallocate to schools and teachers, the country will be much better off.

(in the past , that's fine since temples were the schools)

unfortunately, Thais don't think donate to schools will help them goto heaven, win lotteries, having good luck, etc, like paying to monks.

[elshaheen]

The students are not allowed to fail, then why to the Thai teachers fail. I am confused here.

[souvenirdeparis]

This report is frankly misleading.

The test that the teachers took (OBEC) was not the same kind of test that is taken by the students (O-NET). It's perfectly possible that the test was particularly difficult, even for experienced teachers. The results are meaningless and the journalism shoddy.

glad to read this

this test doesn't make sense

I had a conversation in good English with a 16 y o here, talked of all kind of subjects with two ajarns (:professors) who obviously didn't mushroom of their own volition but were the product of a system

I enjoyed the friendship of a student here who was fluent in French ans spoke better English than me ( had had a grant for the usa) and was on her way to Beijing to learn Chinese , will probably end up in a consulate.

The trouble with teachers in lots of countries is if someone has maths , physics, computing skills, he'll make so much more in the industry or the banks.

I am currently in contact with a Thaï professor of nutrition who came to France to study not our diet but our way of handling such statistics ; he is teaching in BKK now .

My ex wife is not very interested in general culture, this is a fact, but once she has set her mind on learning a subject, she can be awesome ; after ten years in France & no previous learning of the language she passed a degree of assistant nurse, she was in line with typically native jobless bachelors of psychology and people who had failed the exam for nurse ; I told her no way you'll just waste your time , it was very instrumental in our divorcing.

She passed the *%§ test FIRST of the red -cross school in town, she was the "major" and SECOND in our 'province' I couldn't believe it I went to the graduation saw everybody congratulating her

she had learned the ten kilos of §*$!% difficult technical books by ROTE

(plus she proved very good at hospital work and working with people)

I lost face completely she was so proud !

her younger sister has a degree in computing she is a commercial rep and travels all over Asia

I wish I was as smart.

just sack whoever wrote the !%*/ test .

[moetownblues]

Mmmmmm and we thought teachers were better than us.

Maybe we are better than the teachers!!!!!

They have a television show here in Thailand, it is also shown in other versions elsewhere around the world. It's called are you smarter than a 5th grader. I think in Thailand they should change the title to are you smarter than a 5th grade TEACHER>"

[richieudon]

Oh my god. No wonder when I asked peeople in Thailand with 13 years of education

and did not recognise such names as Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler, Dalai Lama and

Gandi. Could not point where Europe was or where the USA was. Could not tell me

a single planet in the Universe.

Most can't point to where Thailand is on a map of the world.

It seems to me that if it ain't Thailand it ain't taught, that's why everyone is so nationalistic and farangs are not important.

Most of the well educated attend schools abroad. Singapore, Uk etc.

It's hard to learn when you're not allowed to question.

I'm considering pulling my daughter out of school.

She's been there two years and still can't read numbers 1-10 if you jumble them around.

She can sing plenty of songs though.

It just seems a waste of money to me...

Excuse me, most people I know could point Thailand out on a map but I think

Europe and USA (Europe being a whiole continent) are more significant than

Thailand and not a fair comparison. Thank you.

Excuse me but I speak the truth. I've asked many ordinary people, children and adults "show me Thailand on this map".

Many have stared at it for a long time and can not show me where.

I think it is a very fair comparison. If I were Thai I would expect to know where in the world my country was.

I have read on Thaivisa of a teacher who brought in a globe to his classroom only to be told be his superiors to remove it.

They probably didn't want to "upset the apple cart" so to speak.

Thank you.

[noahvail]

I'm married to a former teacher and two of her sisters are also teachers. As for speaking English my sister-in-law is poor at best, however I had to watch my grammar and spelling when I write to them.

I think your comment strikes close to home. My wife comes from a small village with a combined school from other villages. She was taught English - grammar and spelling. When she finished her classes she could barely speak the niceties: hello, how are you, I am fine...

Her oldest friend took classes with her. The friend went on to become an English teacher. When we met, I was tremendously embarrassed for her - I could not understand a word she said, nor could she understand me. I found out that she teaches English by rote - grammar and spelling - just the way that she was taught.

My wife learned to speak English by spending five years of watching American and British movies with subtitles. She could read the words, but had to work at pronouncing them. Five years after she started, she had a pretty good grasp of the language; after spending a year with me, her vocabulary and enunciation improved dramatically, without my assisting her very much.

So - there might be an answer. After two years of learning grammar and spelling, have the kids watch HBO with subtitles in English class

[overdog]

Not good enough..Who are teaching the teachers??

Who is teaching the teachers?

It's endemic..........

It doesnt need to be endemic..Maybe a closer monitoring of teachers

Monitoring is not the simple solution it may seem to be. It must start with teacher training/education. Other posts have made some salient points, particularly in regard to questioning the exams the teachers wrote. This news article may be misleading until all those facts are known and placed in perspective.

Education is a very complex and hard to define process. A firm grasp on knowing the subject matter is an essential element of being a good teacher, but only one element. Knowing how to impart that knowledge is just as important; one must have the skills and theories of education to be an effective teacher - it's called pedagogy. Those skills and theories are learned and practised by teachers in training, and then honed and more fully developed within the profession. It takes years!

It is, unfortunately, too obvious to the outsider how low the standard of education is in Thailand when it is compared to more developed societies. But looking over the past 40 years of Thailand's history it is evident that this country is beginning to educate and invest in itself. It wasn't THAT long ago that formal education in the West was largely the preserve of the elite and privileged.

Edited June 9, 2010 by overdog

[moetownblues]

Oh my god. No wonder when I asked peeople in Thailand with 13 years of education

and did not recognise such names as Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler, Dalai Lama and

Gandi. Could not point where Europe was or where the USA was. Could not tell me

a single planet in the Universe.

Most can't point to where Thailand is on a map of the world.

It seems to me that if it ain't Thailand it ain't taught, that's why everyone is so nationalistic and farangs are not important.

Most of the well educated attend schools abroad. Singapore, Uk etc.

It's hard to learn when you're not allowed to question.

I'm considering pulling my daughter out of school.

She's been there two years and still can't read numbers 1-10 if you jumble them around.

She can sing plenty of songs though.

It just seems a waste of money to me...

Excuse me, most people I know could point Thailand out on a map but I think

Europe and USA (Europe being a whiole continent) are more significant than

Thailand and not a fair comparison. Thank you.

Excuse me but I speak the truth. I've asked many ordinary people, children and adults "show me Thailand on this map".

Many have stared at it for a long time and can not show me where.

I think it is a very fair comparison. If I were Thai I would expect to know where in the world my country was.

I have read on Thaivisa of a teacher who brought in a globe to his classroom only to be told be his superiors to remove it.

They probably didn't want to "upset the apple cart" so to speak.

Thank you.

Basically I think that the government want's to keep the poor, poor and uneducated then they are no threat to the thai elite's way of life.

[dixter]

this is no real surprise to me at all. i teach, i see, i cry

(Oooh, nice new board format!)

84% failure rate in mathematics! That's, like, almost half!

Thank you for injecting some humour into this rather depressing thread.

It will, unfortunately, take at least a generation to change anything. When students are encouraged to ask questions then there will be changes but not until then. Once those children have gone though the education system and finally become teachers themselves then maybe it will be different. IMHO

I once worked with a Primary school teacher who taught the students that LIONS were male and TIGERS were female. Oh well! Back to your colouring then!

[ramsesxix]

This report is frankly misleading.

The test that the teachers took (OBEC) was not the same kind of test that is taken by the students (O-NET).  It's perfectly possible that the test was particularly difficult, even for experienced teachers.  The results are meaningless and the journalism shoddy.

Let's say that you are correct, and OBEC tests are inherently different than the standardized tests administered to the students... As an educator I fail to see how that excuses them from knowing the subject matter they teach.  A teacher's ability to teach students how to take and pass a standardized test is not a measuring stick for success.  Or to look at it another way, teachers should have knowledge of the subjects they teach that goes well beyond what in on the curriculum for a given class.

And as for the remark about the quality of workmanship involved in this article, if journalists go to the same universities as the teachers do, then shoddy journalism should be expected, should it not?  

[oceanyachting]

blind leading the blind

It would be interesting to do the same exercise in other countries. I wonder how many would do any better?

Not that many would pass, if today done hand written tests no computers etc, 2% would be lucky to pass.

Took longer to learn in my day but it stuck!

I'm constantly amazed at how many people get their calculator to work out 2 x something or even 10 x something! Does nobody have basic arithmetic skills now? This report does not surprise me in the least

[Roachiebkk]

Thai education has always been the haven for the elite. Students pass and never look at failure simply because of their family connections.

What a joke!

[scotbeve]

And private schools ? Same score ?

I would say No, Johan. Both my kids went / are going to Intl. schools here and go abroad annually to private schools for "Summer School". Both have said that school is easy if not easier than the intl. schooling they get here...

[kevozman1]

Oh my god. No wonder when I asked peeople in Thailand with 13 years of education

and did not recognise such names as Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler, Dalai Lama and

Gandi. Could not point where Europe was or where the USA was. Could not tell me

a single planet in the Universe.

Most can't point to where Thailand is on a map of the world.

It seems to me that if it ain't Thailand it ain't taught, that's why everyone is so nationalistic and farangs are not important.

Most of the well educated attend schools abroad. Singapore, Uk etc.

It's hard to learn when you're not allowed to question.

I'm considering pulling my daughter out of school.

She's been there two years and still can't read numbers 1-10 if you jumble them around.

She can sing plenty of songs though.

It just seems a waste of money to me...

Excuse me, most people I know could point Thailand out on a map but I think

Europe and USA (Europe being a whiole continent) are more significant than

Thailand and not a fair comparison. Thank you.

Excuse me but I speak the truth. I've asked many ordinary people, children and adults "show me Thailand on this map".

Many have stared at it for a long time and can not show me where.

I think it is a very fair comparison. If I were Thai I would expect to know where in the world my country was.

I have read on Thaivisa of a teacher who brought in a globe to his classroom only to be told be his superiors to remove it.

They probably didn't want to "upset the apple cart" so to speak.

Thank you.

Sorry I did not read your post correctly, thought you was talking about

non Thai people when talking about pointing Thailand out on a map.

Think maybe I need to go back to school................... just make sure

the teachers are not Thai.

[wlcart]

blind leading the blind

It would be interesting to do the same exercise in other countries. I wonder how many would do any better?

I have taught in both the US and Thailand for many years. In the states regularly we had media reports of teachers who fail competency test, but never at this high of a rate, and importantly, not in their own subject!

Beyond competence, Thai teachers do not seem to teach. In math for example, teachers do problems on the board, students take notes, class ends. No one interacts. Teachers do not ask the students questions, students do not ask teachers question, and if the students do not understand, too bad.

Good luck changing any of it. Thai institutions consider themselves the ultimate experts and do not take kindly to outside suggestions.

[ramsesxix]

... They don't stay in the field because of the great pay. ...

As far as I can tell, pay has A LOT to do with it. In Thailand, teachers are government employees (government grammar and secondary schools). If a teacher has gone through the process correctly, he/she becomes a government officer. They get annual pay raises, and by the time they are retirement age, they are quite well off. Teachers not only get paid their salary but can earn additional sums of money for 'extra duties' they perform. You factor in that many make extra money 'tutoring' on the side, it is not bad.

Certainly, the starting salary is paltry, but the longer you stick with it, the better it gets. Factor in that it is nearly impossible for Thai teachers to get fired once they are government employees, they really have no incentive, do they?

Edited June 9, 2010 by ramsesxix

[OldgitTom]

You farangs condemn out of ignorance.

As far back as the 1950s, Thailand had sound education plans. The best were sent abroad to study. Once highly qualified, these returnees were meant to be the teachers of a new generation of teachers. Alas, in the 1960s, the Asian economic boom began to take off. This highly-educated elite was attracted from low-paid education into big-money business & government - collapse of plans.

And it got worse. America & Europe recruited the brightest & best Thai graduates with salaries Thailand could not pay.

This country struggles under the weight of more powerful & wealthy regimes. Understand: don't join the ignorant & malevolent in jeering. OGT

[Deeral]

Most posters seem to have accepted the results of these tests totally uncritically.

Whilst I think there is certainly cause for concern about teaching in Thailand, I can't see that this approach is anything more than a "tabloid" type exercise.

Someone asked who is teaching the teachers - well they might also ask -"Who is teaching the doctors" ...........and lawyers and engineers and any other profession here, and I'd hazard a guess the answers would be similar in all cases.

Professional qualifications in Thailand don't seem to be "earned" they are bought or handed out to friends and family with scant regard to merit or performance in any appraisal - and that doesn't have to be an exam in particular.

So although I think the "report" is probably worthless - it does highlight a dire situation in Thailand with regards to the validity of ANY teaching, training or resulting qualifications.

[pipchatel]

blind leading the blind

It would be interesting to do the same exercise in other countries. I wonder how many would do any better?

Whats your name?

Where you From?

thats it professional guys/dolls that it

most work council/town hall/immigration

what a fuc_k up

[Pib]

Don't worry, the Thai govt will fix this problem with a commission/study.

[Bottlerocket]

After taking the teacher's licensing exam in Khon Kaen and seeing that test, I wouldn't be too hard on the teachers. The ministry needs more than a lot of help when it comes to creating comprehensible tests.

[KhunYindee]

blind leading the blind

It would be interesting to do the same exercise in other countries. I wonder how many would do any better?

They already do this kind of teacher testing in the USA, it is called the CBEST test and all Public School Teachers are required to pass it to continue teaching. I am an English teacher in Roi-Et Province and the results of this testing is no surprise to me. Based on what I have personally seen, I am surprised that the failure rate was only 80%

[jellykookabanj]

Basically I think that the government want's to keep the poor, poor and uneducated then they are no threat to the thai elite's way of life.

You have highlighted the truth of the matter. If the poor were to be given a better education then their hopes and aspirations for a well paid job would increase. They would no longer be happy to remain as "farm workers" like many millions of the population are now. Also they would not provide the "sweat shop" workers in Bangkok working for peanuts.

Whilst the general population are given this inadequate education then the extremely wealthy will become more so and the powers that be will remain at the head of the queue for the "wealth trough".

I am disgusted with some of the comments made on this forum about the standards of teachers. These people are not highly paid professionals with the benefit of a western world university degree. They have been educated withing the Thai system. with all its failings. They continue to work for what would be considered a pittance in the western world and with enthusiasm as they were taught that the Thai system was one of the worlds' best.

This country is very insular and as Farangs we are aware of this. The big problem is that Thais are not aware as it is normal life to them. We have come with our attitudes to life and appear extremely rude to many as we continue to live our western lifestyle over here. We should not criticise, rather we should attempt to understand and then help when asked.

[elkangorito]

I think the news article is irrelevant in a country where everybody 'passes' & then suddenly, teachers fail.

What is relevant is 'culture' & the increasing desire to not deviate from the already plotted course. Essentially, nothing will change until 'culture' changes. In the recent past, many Thai people have paid the penalty (imprisonment) for going against their culture. These are the people who have 'sowed the seed for change' at great personal cost.

The Thai education system is strongly linked to 'culture' as the system is used to propogate the unchanging ways of Thai society. Basically, the education system is key in the continued indoctrination of Thai society. In fact, 'culture' & the education system totally rely upon each other. If one of these should fail, change may result (how shocking!!!).

As far as I can tell, pay has A LOT to do with it. In Thailand, teachers are government employees (government grammar and secondary schools). If a teacher has gone through the process correctly, he/she becomes a government officer. They get annual pay raises, and by the time they are retirement age, they are quite well off. Teachers not only get paid their salary but can earn additional sums of money for 'extra duties' they perform. You factor in that many make extra money 'tutoring' on the side, it is not bad.

Certainly, the starting salary is paltry, but the longer you stick with it, the better it gets. Factor in that it is nearly impossible for Thai teachers to get fired once they are government employees, they really have no incentive, do they?

I fully agree.

I have met many a complacent Thai teacher, who is simply treading water until retirement.

You farangs condemn out of ignorance.

As far back as the 1950s, Thailand had sound education plans. The best were sent abroad to study. Once highly qualified, these returnees were meant to be the teachers of a new generation of teachers. Alas, in the 1960s, the Asian economic boom began to take off. This highly-educated elite was attracted from low-paid education into big-money business & government - collapse of plans.

And it got worse. America & Europe recruited the brightest & best Thai graduates with salaries Thailand could not pay.

This country struggles under the weight of more powerful & wealthy regimes. Understand: don't join the ignorant & malevolent in jeering. OGT

I disagree Oldgit. Culture is the key issue...more powerful & wealthy regimes are a secondary issue.

Edited June 9, 2010 by elkangorito

[Throatwobbler]

There is no national curriculum from what I can gather. Worse, the teachers get to write their own course work.

My wife asked me to help her little sister with some home work. When I saw what her teacher had given her, I couldn't believe it.

This is a mid to high priced School in Bangkok. The English exercises made no sense at all.

When I laughed I seemed to offend.

The usual social rules. "Don't complain, its not polite"

The government could easily adopt a national curriculum from an English speaking country. Its not the teachers fault, in my opinion its the governing body.

That's not correct. There is in fact a national curriculum. A major revision is being promulgated this term. It is fairly clear for Mathematics and Sciences, but the English Language curriculum is laughable. I believe they modeled the national curriculum from the one used in Singapore. I haven't studied the new curriculum in depth enough to comment at length, but it appears to be very similar to the one used previously, only fleshed out a bit more in the detail.

The curriculum for languages is just a foreign language curriculum, So it's a one size fits all be it for whatever language you are teaching, English, Chinese or whatever. It's very vague and is open to lots of interpolation. I can give you some examples tomorrow when I bring my home on from school.

Yes i was referring to the English Language curriculum.