Probe To Resume Into War On Drugs Killings During Thaksin Govt

[rixalex]

Can you tell me if that 'we didn't close the airport' is a official yellow defence line by their lawyers or is it just some stupid argument taken from some yellow propaganda fan page?

My opinion is that trying to blame anyone other than the yellows for the closing of the airport is daft.

It's also my opinion that the act of causing an airport's closure is a crime.

The crime however is not terrorism. Had they set light to it or blown it up, then of course it would have been. They didn't.

[mazeltov]

Abhisit has no interest in reconciliation and the road map. All this is going to do is cause more friction between the already divided country. If he is going to look into the past how about looking at the terrorists that took control of the airport? Oh no he cant because they are part of his Government. The double standards that this man has:bah: makes me sick!

I think you are missing the point.

Did the yellow shirts have AK47 equiped shirts for back up, NO.

Did the yellow shirts shoot at the army or police, NO.

Did Thaksins lot kill drug offenders without a trial. Yes.

Was the PAD attacked by the army, soldiers with assault rifle firing live rounds and snipers killing lots of them and wounded thousands?

for a recap of the level of non-violence by the PAD protests i want to post an parts of article from The Nations wellknown columnist Chang Noi:

The culture of protest and the use of violence

...

The PAD protests in 2006 belonged to this same non-violent culture. Violence was confined to verbal abuse. But the campaign that developed from May this year was approached in a mode of warfare. The PAD sites at Government House, Makhawan Bridge, and the airports were like defensive encampments. Barbed wire never featured in earlier demonstrations. This time the bales were everywhere. Defensive barriers were built with used tyres, commandeered vehicles, plastic water bottles, and airport luggage trolleys. Yellow shirts and banners served as a form of uniform. Leaders wore other military-like gear including neck-scarves, epaulette shirts, camouflage trousers, and combat jerkins. Buildings were besieged. Units were moved around Bangkok streets like troops on manoeuvre.

From around September onwards, PAD leaders talked regularly about the prospect of a “civil war.” The airport seizure was announced as the “final battle.” After this “Hiroshima” we were told to expect “Nagasaki.” PAD leaders justified anything by explaining “we are now at war.”

...

At the time PAD moved to the airports, Sondhi Limthongkul stated that PAD had 10,000 guards on shifts distributed among its protest sites. That figure might well have been exaggerated for effect, but the true number probably runs into thousands. Early in the campaign, Sondhi stated that the guards were mostly recruited among ex-policemen and ex-soldiers, and were paid by the day. Later on PAD imported units of guards from upcountry, especially from Chonburi, Rayong, Phetburi,and towns in the south. The looting that has been a hallmark of the PAD campaign suggests many were petty criminals. Some have said they came from “private armies.”

Most guards were armed with simple weapons such as sticks, lengths of steel pipe, and sling shots. After the first invasion of Government House, over a hundred used golf clubs were confiscated. Photos have shown people wielding knives, machetes, and swords. A famous clip featured a PAD guard emptying a hand gun on a major Bangkok throroughfare. An Uzi machine gun was found in the car of one PAD leader’s personal bodyguard, and may have been looted from a police cache in Government House. During the October 7 clash, a leader of the PAD guards was blown to pieces by a car full of bombs of some description. Vehicles have also been used as weapons. On October 7, a pick-up deliberately drove over a policeman, and a bus was used to ram the police line. During the police’s token appearance at Suwarnabhumi airport, a truck was accelerated through the police line. Home-made bombs, shotguns, grenades, pistols, and explosives were found in PAD vehicles.

...

chang_noi 8 December 2008

[Pib]

Quote: Out of some 2,500 people slain in drug suppression operations, about 1,200 were said to have been killed by fellow drug dealers for fear they would turn into informants. End Quote.

One of these instances happened in my wife's village where two guys killed another guy in plain daylight. The guy killed was known within the village to be selling drugs and most of the villagers feel it was two plain clothes policemen versus another drug dealer than did the shooting. What ever investigation done into the shooting was pretty minimal...they never found the killers.

[mazeltov]

It has been shown that factions inside the red shirt campaign fired rounds at, propelled grenades at the law FIRST, whether police or army. What retaliation, in the end, did anyone expect.

In any other country they would have been dealt with IMMEDIATELY.

read the article above? would you still claim that the PAD were unarmed and non-violent?

and where it has been shown that 'factions in the red shirts fired FIRST? where that claim, i read it often, that in any other country it would have been dealt IMMEDIATELY with comes from? which other countries? and wouldn't it still make sense to compare it with the response of the LAW the PAD had to face during their 192 days of protests? That was in Thailand too, under the same law.

anyway, to the point 'in any other country' - you may wanna have a look what they said in the European Parliament about the violent crackdown of the red shirt protest to get an idea what they think over there.

part 2:

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[mazeltov]

edit: double post changed to post part2 as media item. Edited June 11, 2010 by mazeltov

[Bjorn]

Abhisit has no interest in reconciliation and the road map. All this is going to do is cause more friction between the already divided country. If he is going to look into the past how about looking at the terrorists that took control of the airport? Oh no he cant because they are part of his Government. The double standards that this man has:bah: makes me sick!

Fully agree, you could not have said it better!!

[eggomaniac]

Abhisit has no interest in reconciliation and the road map. All this is going to do is cause more friction between the already divided country. If he is going to look into the past how about looking at the terrorists that took control of the airport? Oh no he cant because they are part of his Government. The double standards that this man has:bah: makes me sick!

When did terrorists take over the airport, I dont remember any terror, no guns, no bombs, no violence..... just a peacefull sit-in and the stupid airport manager whos wife is an ardent Red Shirt supporter , he decided to close the airport down for a whole 9 days...WoW...

Now it's REDS that shut down the airport. WOW. [learn something new every day]

It's comments like this, and other factors which make the expats who are getting out of Thailand look like geniuses. How can anyone possibly think things will get back to ABnormal when the reds are spreading propaganda that it was the yellows who shut down the airport.

[until we see the charges against Sondhi dropped and charge the AP manager's wife, there will never be peace in Thailand.]

---

There baks was that fun? Let's talk about forming a comedy team. you and Sondhi

edit;; there apparently is world wide controversy on the legal definition of 'terrorism'

good read on the subject >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism

WOTEVER the definition is, it is wrong to pursue red criminals and intall yellow criminals as Cabinet Ministers.

They are not hiding in Montenegro, so they sould be easy to put behind bars where they belong.

IF YOU READ the above article it seems? there is no ambiguity on the definition when it comes to Inrernational Airports..

Did the foreign victims of Sondhi FEEL terrorised???? that would be the 'legal' test on whether is was terrorism.

Following this approach, the international community has adopted the following sectoral counter-terrorism conventions, open to the ratification of all states:

• The 1963 Convention on Offences and Certain Other Acts Committed On Board Aircraft
• The 1970 Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Seizure of Aircraft
• The 1971 Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Civil Aviation
• The 1979 Convention on the Physical Protection of Nuclear Material
• The 1988 Protocol for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts of Violence at Airports Serving International Civil Aviation
• The 1988 Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation
• The 1988 Protocol for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Fixed Platforms Located on the Continental Shelf
• The 1991 Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives for the Purpose of Identification
• The 1997 International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings.
• The 1999 International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism
• The 2005 International Convention for the Suppression of Acts of Nuclear Terrorism

From this, it appears Sondhi's defense against charges of terrorism could only that Thailand does adhere to International Standards. While it would be terrorism in Civilised countries, it is WELL KNOWN that Thailand is not ranked on that list, therefore it was tribal political activity of a 'developing' nation.

The FACT that Sondhi is not in jail, preferably in the same cell with his old lover, Thaksin, makes Thailand a continual laughing stock!

Edited June 11, 2010 by eggomaniac

[JLester]

Killings were 'crime against humanity'

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The drug-related deaths that occurred during the large-scale crackdown by the first Thaksin Shinawatra government could be regarded as crimes against humanity through systematic state-sponsored atrocities, a member of a government investigation committee said yesterday.

Charnchao Chaiyanukij said yesterday that the Khanit na Nakhon panel found that former Interior Minister Sermsak Pongpanit, acting on the orders of former prime minister Thaksin, ordered all provincial governors to submit a blacklist of drug dealers and runners within seven days.

"First, police made arrests, then made announcements welcoming the dealers' surrender," he said. "But according to what was widely reported at the time, most of them were shot dead mysteriously after they gave themselves up."

Of the more than 2,500 deaths, the Khanit panel found that 1,200 killings were not committed by rival drug traffickers or other dealers to silence one another, but were mostly extrajudicial killings by police, which were never thoroughly investigated.

Charnchao said many provincial governors had testified to the Khanit panel, set up by the Surayud government, that a shoot-to-kill order was issued internally among high-ranking Interior Ministry officials. "The governors then relayed the orders to provincial police chiefs to follow," he added.

He said public prosecutors also "danced along by not ordering mandatory investigations into more than 800 extrajudicial killings by police, in violation of the Criminal Procedural Code."

-- The Nation 2010-06-12

[Buchholz]

Further inquiries into deaths from 'War on Drugs'

Further inquiries are set to start into more than 2,500 drug-related killings during the first Thaksin Shinawatra government as an independent panel has begun work, jointly with the Department of Special Investigation (DSI).

Former Attorney General Khamphee Kaewjaroen, who is Chairman of the new panel, said Tuesday that participation by the DSI meant the criminal prosecution process had begun and evidence would be gathered for completion over a 90 day period.

-- The Nation 2010-11-23

[jdinasia]

Further inquiries into deaths from 'War on Drugs'

Further inquiries are set to start into more than 2,500 drug-related killings during the first Thaksin Shinawatra government as an independent panel has begun work, jointly with the Department of Special Investigation (DSI).

Former Attorney General Khamphee Kaewjaroen, who is Chairman of the new panel, said Tuesday that participation by the DSI meant the criminal prosecution process had begun and evidence would be gathered for completion over a 90 day period.

-- The Nation 2010-11-23

The news today just keeps getting better!

[Buchholz]

^ agreed. Nabbing the Red bombers was also a positive step today.

I hope the continuation of the Thaksin's Drug War killings investigation can be seen through to fruition.

[Buchholz]

The committee investigating Thaksin's Drug War has established a time frame for its findings of three months. There are two sub-committees established, one with the DSI will be looking at the facts surrounding the Drug War and the second, with Rights and Liberties Protection Department Director-General Suwana Suwannajutha in charge, will focus on rehabilitation for those effected by it.

Thus far there have been 16 families of victims who have filed complaints that the DSI who will investigate for prosecution. In addition, 12 other cases have had the DSI already initiating investigations and there have been 80 cases filed with the National Human Rights Commission. DSI has completed 3 investigations with referrals to the National Anti-Corruption Commission for prosecution because they involved government officials.

[Buchholz]

Interesting interview in the other paper today with Khampee Kaewcharoen, who is the head the committee investigating the killings of about 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra administration's "war on drugs" in 2003 and 2004.

[phiphidon]

Interesting interview in the other paper today with Khampee Kaewcharoen, who is the head the committee investigating the killings of about 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra administration's "war on drugs" in 2003 and 2004.

That would be the one where he says that actually, Thaksins policies themselves were good in principal but the problem was with the implementation of those policies. Not exempting Thaksin, as overall he was responsible for the policy, it seems that the "shortlists" of drug dealers were to be checked by the Interior Ministry, some interesting names in that arrangement and by that I mean those responsible for checking the lists, not the names on the list. It would be interesting to know how involved (or not) with the final approval of those lists, Thaksin was. Either way there are a few more people out there experiencing a "squeaky bum" moment or two, I'd have thought.

[cdnvic]

Reds, yellows and airports are not the topic here.

[brahmburgers]

Orange you glad T was booted out? I sure am. During his several years at Thailand's helm he did loads of harmful things to the country. Personally, I believe the greatest harm he did (and its hard to pick just one item above the others) ....was his awful influence on youngsters. In essence, he was showing them, by example, that unbridled greed was ok. Imagine if he'd stayed in power - he could still be in the power seat now, as we speak. The mind reels at the manifold messes he'd be saddling Thailand with. He'd make make Marcos and Sukarno look like amateur despots.

[scorecard]

Orange you glad T was booted out? I sure am. During his several years at Thailand's helm he did loads of harmful things to the country. Personally, I believe the greatest harm he did (and its hard to pick just one item above the others) ....was his awful influence on youngsters. In essence, he was showing them, by example, that unbridled greed was ok. Imagine if he'd stayed in power - he could still be in the power seat now, as we speak. The mind reels at the manifold messes he'd be saddling Thailand with. He'd make make Marcos and Sukarno look like amateur despots.

Agree with Bramburgers. I am also very glad that he was 'thrown out'. He had, at the time of being 'thrown out' already instituted many items to ensure that he would never be 'elected' out of office. And he had already started to make his claims 'the people want me to be presdient for life'. This claim has been researched several times before and has no substantial support in any way - in other words there is no evidence of a solid movement from 'the people of Thailand' to indidctae they wanted him to be 'president for life'. One might also note that presdient for life clashes severely with his claims now of being the champion of democracy and his claims for justice for all with no double standards.

Lies and delusions fo grandeur. Additional to the items he needed to gain and keep control of elections, he also came close to destroying the whole justice mechanism.

As already said, great example for the youngsters in the Thai community Given his track record, he would very clearly have continued to put whatever means he needs in place to ensure that he would never be 'elected' out of office.

There has been lots of learned comment from respected economists that t's economic policies were totally unsustainable long-term and would, if continued, caue deep damage to Thailand.

Thailand with T as PM, chavalit, chalerm, miss 30%, sanoe, jatuporn, veera, and many more incapable and insincere PT people as the senior ministers, with large numbers of t family relatives in senior positions all over the ministries and govt., agencies - very frightening.

Edited November 29, 2010 by scorecard

[jayboy]

Don't probe too far,maybe get to close for comfort for some.

Quite.The enquiry is to be welcomed.This was the worst of Thaksin's crimes, that is where he was personally involved in the strategy and implementation (as opposed to the atrocities in the South).

But the point you make is the elephant in the room, which is why there will never be a satisfactory conclusion to this issue.

Anyway the enquiry should be given every chance and its proceedings should be made public (not kept secret because of "national security" excuses).

[Buchholz]

Interesting interview in the other paper today with Khampee Kaewcharoen, who is the head the committee investigating the killings of about 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra administration's "war on drugs" in 2003 and 2004.

That would be the one where he says that actually, Thaksins policies themselves were good in principal but the problem was with the implementation of those policies.

Yes, that's the one and yes, trying to curtail drug abuse is a worthwhile goal, but implementing that goal by shooting people in the head is a problem.

[hammered]

Before PPP won the election there was meant to be a follow up report on the last one. It was ditched after they won. HRW iirc also claimed names were removed from the previous report after the election.

If Thailand is to see any movement forward on human rights this case needs to be investigated to conclusion. This is about thousands of people who never had their day in court.

Having said all that only Kraisak ever showed any real interest in pursuing this case so it will likely end up in the possibly to use as pressure catagory along with the Shipping Moo murder which sends shivers down the spine of certain northern polticians. Power games and authoritariansim whether under democratic or other governments often leave an usatisfying taste in mouths and much negotiated away or conveniently sidelined

[ballpoint]

... Thailand with T as PM, chavalit, chalerm, miss 30%, sanoe, jatuporn, veera, and many more incapable and insincere PT people as the senior ministers, with large numbers of t family relatives in senior positions all over the ministries and govt., agencies - very frightening.

It's frightening enough that not one of those named has been put on trial, if at all, without being allowed to flee the country / having the case thrown out due to a technicality / claiming parliamentary immunity / witnesses suddenly changing testimoney etc etc etc. The fight against corruption must start at the top. Sadly, I can't see the "drugs killings" probe making a lot of progress. I have no doubt that there are a few good men who could lead it, but the military support they'd need to give their findings any real teeth would lead to whinings from many here. I'm sure the fact that most of those "probed", for corruption as well as the drugs war, are current PTP or ex TRT members (granted, some of whom are in the current coalition), would be purely coincidental and not a factor in said whining from the red leaning members.

[Buchholz]

... Thailand with T as PM, chavalit, chalerm, miss 30%, sanoe, jatuporn, veera, and many more incapable and insincere PT people as the senior ministers, with large numbers of t family relatives in senior positions all over the ministries and govt., agencies - very frightening.

It's frightening enough that not one of those named has been put on trial, if at all, without being allowed to flee the country / having the case thrown out due to a technicality / claiming parliamentary immunity / witnesses suddenly changing testimoney etc etc etc. The fight against corruption must start at the top. Sadly, I can't see the "drugs killings" probe making a lot of progress. I have no doubt that there are a few good men who could lead it, but the military support they'd need to give their findings any real teeth would lead to whinings from many here. I'm sure the fact that most of those "probed", for corruption as well as the drugs war, are current PTP or ex TRT members (granted, some of whom are in the current coalition), would be purely coincidental and not a factor in said whining from the red leaning members.

One of those mentioned ("t family") has been put on trial.

Was found guilty of tax evasion involving hundreds of millions of baht that otherwise would have been taxed with the funds going to help the people of this country.

Was sentenced to three years in prison for this egregious crime of defrauding her fellow countrymen.

That was over two years ago and she still has not yet begun serving her sentence.

[msg362]

Abhisit has no interest in reconciliation and the road map. All this is going to do is cause more friction between the already divided country. If he is going to look into the past how about looking at the terrorists that took control of the airport? Oh no he cant because they are part of his Government. The double standards that this man has:bah: makes me sick!

2500 people died, you can't equate that with sitting in an airport or if you do you need help I'm just astonished it's taken so long to bring this enquiry on. I was here at the time .living in a village in Northern Thailand where the headman was shot in a Wat and a filed was full of furniture taken out from houses of 'drug dealers' it lay there for over a year. Many people fled and yes some may have been dealing, but this was not the way to handle it.

[jackr]

Hark at all the doogooders. While not a Taksin fan, reckon he was spot on with his War On Drugs... if only it were made a permanent fixture, Muang Thai (and the rest of the world) would be better for all.

[jdinasia]

Hark at all the doogooders. While not a Taksin fan, reckon he was spot on with his War On Drugs... if only it were made a permanent fixture, Muang Thai (and the rest of the world) would be better for all.

So you approve of extra-judicial murders of people only named for being involved in the drug trade with no trials, no evidence required etc?

[philw]

Don't probe too far,maybe get to close for comfort for some.

Quite.The enquiry is to be welcomed.This was the worst of Thaksin's crimes, that is where he was personally involved in the strategy and implementation (as opposed to the atrocities in the South).

But the point you make is the elephant in the room, which is why there will never be a satisfactory conclusion to this issue.

Anyway the enquiry should be given every chance and its proceedings should be made public (not kept secret because of "national security" excuses).

Middle para spot on.

Doubters should research a few speeches...............

[Buchholz]

Hark at all the doogooders. While not a Taksin fan, reckon he was spot on with his War On Drugs... if only it were made a permanent fixture, Muang Thai (and the rest of the world) would be better for all.

Rah Rah Rah! Only Thaksin could eliminate all the drugs throughout all areas of the whole country!

Thaksin declares the country 'drug free area'

"The government is pleased to announce that the country is now a drug-free area and will proclaim victory in its war on drugs," said Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

- The Nation / April 13, 2003

================================================

2,500 slaughtered in order to make some asinine, absurd, patently false claim.

[phiphidon]

Don't probe too far,maybe get to close for comfort for some.

Quite.The enquiry is to be welcomed.This was the worst of Thaksin's crimes, that is where he was personally involved in the strategy and implementation (as opposed to the atrocities in the South).

But the point you make is the elephant in the room, which is why there will never be a satisfactory conclusion to this issue.

Anyway the enquiry should be given every chance and its proceedings should be made public (not kept secret because of "national security" excuses).

Middle para spot on.

Doubters should research a few speeches...............

Which makes it incredibly difficult, nay stupid, to discuss this in depth and therefore leaves Thaksin as a convenient (though culpable) "patsy" in this episode of Thai history.

[Buchholz]

Don't probe too far,maybe get to close for comfort for some.

Quite.The enquiry is to be welcomed.This was the worst of Thaksin's crimes, that is where he was personally involved in the strategy and implementation (as opposed to the atrocities in the South).

But the point you make is the elephant in the room, which is why there will never be a satisfactory conclusion to this issue.

Anyway the enquiry should be given every chance and its proceedings should be made public (not kept secret because of "national security" excuses).

Middle para spot on.

Doubters should research a few speeches...............

Which makes it incredibly difficult, nay stupid, to discuss this in depth and therefore leaves Thaksin as a convenient (though culpable) "patsy" in this episode of Thai history.

The "patsy" who initiated it, announced it, supervised it, and claimed credit for it's dramatic success in eliminating all drugs from the country.

Panel says Thaksin to blame for deaths

The Kanit na Kakhon panel yesterday pinned the blame on former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra for killings during the 2003 war on drugs.

"On January 14, 2003 Thaksin chaired a meeting of provincial governors, police chiefs, and heads of agencies and instructed them to wage all-out war on illicit drugs, classified as a national security threat which must be resolved without mercy, and any casualties were deemed necessary," the report said in one of its findings.

The Nation / December 23, 2007

[scorecard]

Hark at all the doogooders. While not a Taksin fan, reckon he was spot on with his War On Drugs... if only it were made a permanent fixture, Muang Thai (and the rest of the world) would be better for all.

So you seem suggest that a 'wild west' approach is the way to build a civil society.

I guess these are the values you teach your kids( if you have any), I guess you also teach them that drunk driving and running red lights is cool.

So I guess ultimately you propose values which have no respect for anybody or anything.

Well thanks for reminding me to regularly teach and remind my family of the exact opposite values.

Thanks for jogging my memory.