Would You Still Practice If Rebirth Does Not Exist?

[fabianfred]

Although achieveing human rebirth is rare and precious it is not like a lucky dip. We do not go back into the sack of lottery numbers at each rebirth. Do not forget the attraction principle of karma...by creating karma with other humans...and by keeping the five precepts..we are creating the cause to get further human rebirth.

Hi Fred.

Many Buddhists, including experienced Monks, don't believe in Re Birth nor reincarnation.

Some have said that the Buddha was speaking of the Birth of incidences of Ego when teaching Re Birth, something we experience countless times within our lifetime.

Many believe that Enlightenment or Nibhanna is not a place but a state of mind in which there are no defilements nor attachment to self.

They say enlightenment is something we can experience in our life but when we die there is no longer such a possibility as we are conditioned and impermanent.

To think more is to be attached to self or ego as there is nothing inside to be Re Born.

Are your beliefs different?

how can you call yourself a follower of the Buddha....and then disbelieve his teachings....in which he often mentions past lives...??

Complete confidence in him and his teachings is a requirement for Sotapannahood..

Nirvana is a state which can be tasted or glimpsed during practice...but can only be attained when we reach Arahant..after which there is no more reirth in Samsara.

[rockyysdt]

how can you call yourself a follower of the Buddha....and then disbelieve his teachings....in which he often mentions past lives...??

Complete confidence in him and his teachings is a requirement for Sotapannahood..

Nirvana is a state which can be tasted or glimpsed during practice...but can only be attained when we reach Arahant..after which there is no more reirth in Samsara.

I learn Buddhism but l am not worthy to be able to call my self a Buddhist.

I respect what you say however many here & many experienced Buddhists of the Theravada discipline question Re Birth & suggest Enlightenment can only be experienced in this life.

The Buddha taught that we are Impermanent & Conditioned and there is nothing inside.

How can Re Birth occur if this is so?

Also it has been said that misinterpretation of doctrine can lead one along the wrong path.

Many things the Buddha taught are not literal but have a deeper meaning.

What are your thoughts?

[fabianfred]

Even the Buddha did not attain enlightenment in a single life....he practiced the perfections as a boddhisatva for four Asongkaya plus 100,000 aeons. (asongkaya is a one followed by 140 zeros)

Those fortunate monks which attained to Arahant whilst listening to his teachings had probably also earned the merit to be able to do so over many lives too.

Buddhism sees the past as infinite and the future as infinite...so all beings have existed since beginningless time...we ahve all been stuck in samsara up until now....now we have the golden opportunity to escape the cycle of suffering... a rare and precious oportunity because Buddhas appear only very rarely....about once every billion billion aeons....

There are many false views nowadays...even among monks...so the teachings are becomming corrupted and people are losing faith in them...

As the Buddha said...those of false view will certainly go to hel_l..because...to have false view and avoid doing evil is impossible.

[phetaroi]

...There are many false views nowadays...even among monks...so the teachings are becomming corrupted and people are losing faith in them...

As the Buddha said...those of false view will certainly go to hel_l..because...to have false view and avoid doing evil is impossible.

Many of us turned away from "western religions" because we were offended by the religious police who said (either directly or in parallel language) -- "if you don't believe what I believe you are going to hel_l." The best example of this is excommunication in Catholicism, but the more modern approach of some evangelicals rivals that.

We looked at Buddhism as a process of thought and belief development -- a work in progress -- where we are allowed to think. To learn. To experience.

But Fred, you are the first Buddhist I have seen who is condemning people to hel_l if they do not believe what you believe.

You make me question the wisdom of Buddhism. I must reject Buddhism, or I must reject your personal and exclusionary interpretation of it. I choose the latter. I have always found most of your posts to be condescending, but I have chosen to say nothing. But now that you are going so far as to condemn people to hel_l, I cannot continue to overlook your wrong thought and wrong speech.

[fabianfred]

You are not condemned to hel_l for not believing in buddhism...or what the Buddha taught...but because you do not understand the truths taught and turn away from them...then you will inevitably suffer...at least by remaining stuck in Samsara and the cycle of rebirths.

It is you yourself who is condemning yourself to more suffering by failing to accept the truth. nobody wants to see you or any being suffering...but even the Buddha knew that he could only teach those who were willing to listen...

He said that the Dhamma is deep...not easily understoood by the many...not easily believed by the many...

[fabianfred]

Western Buddhists like to think that they are educated......and intelligent.....sometimes thinking they are cleverer than the Buddha. They like to say....oh he didn't mean this literally etc....when in fact it is our own ego which cannot accept things.

[fabianfred]

Excuse me when I say 'you...this' or 'you that...'

no personal attacks intended..just my poor communication skills..

[rockyysdt]

Excuse me when I say 'you...this' or 'you that...'

no personal attacks intended..just my poor communication skills..

Hi Fred.

I'm often concerned how l might come across when posting in forums.

Hopefully people will interpret me with having loving kindness.

Another way of wording sentences to avoid misunderstanding is to use "one" rather than "you".

If one practices meditation regularly without expectation personal experience is possible.

[eggomaniac]

Yes. I practice on the assumption that there is no transmigrating soul, just the khandas, as the Buddha taught.

I have finally got my mind around the reincarnation question. Something said in a very interesting movie called "Waking Life" about mathematics cinched it.

The World population has doubled, quadrupled and more. There would not have been enough of us in the Past to go around. Goes to figure that those who believe in reincarnation, several put the claim on historical figures. They rarely remember being a dolt factory worker, it's usually someone like Cleopatra.

The penny really dropped on that one.

[rockyysdt]

I have finally got my mind around the reincarnation question. Something said in a very interesting movie called "Waking Life" about mathematics cinched it.

The World population has doubled, quadrupled and more. There would not have been enough of us in the Past to go around. Goes to figure that those who believe in reincarnation, several put the claim on historical figures. They rarely remember being a dolt factory worker, it's usually someone like Cleopatra.

The penny really dropped on that one.

Would it help to know the current world ant population is one million billion or one quadrillion?

[eggomaniac]

I have finally got my mind around the reincarnation question. Something said in a very interesting movie called "Waking Life" about mathematics cinched it.

The World population has doubled, quadrupled and more. There would not have been enough of us in the Past to go around. Goes to figure that those who believe in reincarnation, several put the claim on historical figures. They rarely remember being a dolt factory worker, it's usually someone like Cleopatra.

The penny really dropped on that one.

Would it help to know the current world ant population is one million billion or one quadrillion?

Well, yes, that could explain it! Maybe unholy ant people are being forced into human lives?

------------------------------------------------------

Cosmic humour aside, it's very propitious, or 'freaky man' you mentioned 'ants'. In any conversation about end times with a seeker I usually, twice yesterday, mention the Hopi legend of the ants' involvement in Earth's transitions.

As Buddhism seems to be open to bicameral learning, here it is about 'ants'. They prophesied during armageddon wicked people will remember these 'occurrences' and crawl around on the ground asking the ants to let them in.

Thoughts.com Blogs - Studying Hopi Prophecy Part 3 â€" Tokpa - The Seco

A Rainbow of Spirituality - Hopi Creation Story

He opened a huge ant mound and told these people to go down in it to live with the ants while he destroyed the world with fire, and he told them to learn from the ants while they were there. The people went down and lived with the ants, who had storerooms of food that they had gathered in the summer, as well as chambers in which the people could live. This went on for quite a while, because after Sotuknang cleansed the world with fire it took a long time for the world to cool off. As the ants' food ran low, the people refused the food, but the ants kept feeding them and only tightened their own belts, which is why ants have such tiny waists today.

http://www.viewzone.com/antpeople.html

Mythological Evidence

Ants played a crucial role in the survival of the ancient Hopi. The Ant People's great kiva provided sanctuary during both the destruction of the First World, or First Era, by fire (volcanism or asteroids) and the Second World by ice (glaciers). [For a possible location of this, see "Lost cityof the Dead in the Grand Canyon" at Jack Andrews' web site www.mysteriousarizona.com.] Only the virtuous members of the tribe following a certain cloud by day and a certain star by night were able to find the sky god Sotuknang. He elected to save these migrating "chosen people" by leading them to the Ant People for protection.

!!!!!What is this? It appears this was found in cave system in the Grand Canyon in 1909!?

[sabaijai]

There is zero proof that such a cave was discovered, just an anonymous story. But there are many caves in that region that were inhabited by Desert Archaic Indian groups, including the famous Anasazis, who regularly interred mummies in caves. So if the story is true at all, most likely the mummies and ritual objects were Anasazi era. It was the Arizona Gazette that made the fanciful comparisons to Egyptian artefacts etc.

Canyonitis: Seeing evidence of ancient Egypt in the Grand Canyon

[eggomaniac]

There is zero proof that such a cave was discovered, just an anonymous story. But there are many caves in that region that were inhabited by Desert Archaic Indian groups, including the famous Anasazis, who regularly interred mummies in caves. So if the story is true at all, most likely the mummies and ritual objects were Anasazi era. It was the Arizona Gazette that made the fanciful comparisons to Egyptian artifacts etc.

Canyonitis: Seeing evidence of ancient Egypt in the Grand Canyon

I jumped the gun on Posting, it looked so interesting. The photo is, apparently, is not even real, but someone's imagination of what an uncorroborated news story from 1909 detailed. They have even gone so far to say the Smithsonian is covering up the 'proof', aka Roswell.

[note to self research 1rst, post 2nd]

The area is filled with enough real artifacts and structures, along with legends, that it does not need to a made up phenomenon.

[fabianfred]

Yes. I practice on the assumption that there is no transmigrating soul, just the khandas, as the Buddha taught.

I have finally got my mind around the reincarnation question. Something said in a very interesting movie called "Waking Life" about mathematics cinched it.

The World population has doubled, quadrupled and more. There would not have been enough of us in the Past to go around. Goes to figure that those who believe in reincarnation, several put the claim on historical figures. They rarely remember being a dolt factory worker, it's usually someone like Cleopatra.

The penny really dropped on that one.

The world's population (human) is irrelevant....

The human realm is the smallest.... but beings take rebirth there from the lower and higher realms which are comparatively huge.

The Buddha picked up some dust on his thumbnail and asked his companions to compare it to the whole earth....saying that it compared the beings in the human realm with those in the lower realms....

another comparison is...if you take all the beings in the human realms and stand them upon the head of a pin...then the surface of the earth would be covered by beings in the higher realms....but if you then stood all the beings from the higher realms upon the head of a pin..then the surface of the earth would be covered by beings from the lower realms...

[sabaijai]

There is zero proof that such a cave was discovered, just an anonymous story. But there are many caves in that region that were inhabited by Desert Archaic Indian groups, including the famous Anasazis, who regularly interred mummies in caves. So if the story is true at all, most likely the mummies and ritual objects were Anasazi era. It was the Arizona Gazette that made the fanciful comparisons to Egyptian artifacts etc.

Canyonitis: Seeing evidence of ancient Egypt in the Grand Canyon

I jumped the gun on Posting, it looked so interesting. The photo is, apparently, is not even real, but someone's imagination of what an uncorroborated news story from 1909 detailed. They have even gone so far to say the Smithsonian is covering up the 'proof', aka Roswell.

[note to self research 1rst, post 2nd]

The area is filled with enough real artifacts and structures, along with legends, that it does not need to a made up phenomenon.

No worries, eggo. I also deleted the other thread per your request.

[khaowong1]

If the Buddha himself talked about visiting his past 100,000 lives and knowing the names of all of them, how they lived and how they died, I don't think we need to worry so much about rebirth. I think we need to worry about rebirth again as a human and not something less.

[rockyysdt]

If the Buddha himself talked about visiting his past 100,000 lives and knowing the names of all of them, how they lived and how they died, I don't think we need to worry so much about rebirth. I think we need to worry about rebirth again as a human and not something less.

After witnessing in life countless instances of suffering, perpetrated against our fellow man, l think Re Birth even as a human is also something to worry about.

[fabianfred]

If the Buddha himself talked about visiting his past 100,000 lives and knowing the names of all of them, how they lived and how they died, I don't think we need to worry so much about rebirth. I think we need to worry about rebirth again as a human and not something less.

After witnessing in life countless instances of suffering, perpetrated against our fellow man, l think Re Birth even as a human is also something to worry about.

Which is why the Buddha showed us how avoid ALL rebirth...

[rockyysdt]

Which is why the Buddha showed us how avoid ALL rebirth...

But for most virtually an impossible task.

Mathematically nearing infinity is virtually infinite.

Even when the Buddha was alive & enlightened (the most powerful period) he recognised most around him, including women in general were beyond navigating the path.

2,500 years later, not as powerful.

[camerata]

including women in general were beyond navigating the path.

Have you got a reference for this?

[rockyysdt]

including women in general were beyond navigating the path.

Have you got a reference for this?

From this forum.

I'd have to do some searching.

Observing myself, from time to time l adopt information l come across and implant it in my mind.

I should attempt to dovetail such behavior with source for future reference.

I think it was from a thread dealing with Bikkhuni's or more precisely womens ranking in the Thai Theravada Sangha.

[Adiccavamso]

Rebirth is not the most important Buddhist doctrine, nor is it specifically Buddhist, but it offers a basis, a preparation for the Four Holy Truiths. Only those very advanced in meditative ability can claim to have experienced/seen their previous lives, such as an arahat who has briefly experienced Nibbana. The rest of us must engage trustful confidence in the teaching. The Pali canon has the Buddha tell his renunciants that if they believe in rebirth and it doesn't exist, they will have lost nothing in trying to live as if it did, and that if it does exist, then they will have benefitted from the outcome of positive kamma (Skt karma). The Abdhidhamma shows that there are parallel truths to this: the cosmological and the psychological. They go hand in hand. As for reincarnation, the term usually applies to the Bodhisatta (Skt Bodhisattva) path, and those that have achieved an advanced meditative state choose to to remain in this world out of compassion to help others. This is emphasized in all Mahayana schools, including Zen. But maybe not the hybrid US version!

Buddhadasa and other modernists see the heaven and hel_l realms as states of mind, with rebirth happening every moment. This is not far from the Abhidamma books that present a unified theory of mind.

Human rebirths are traditionally seen as relatively rare - and fortunate. As all creatures are seen as part of the same cycles of samsara, this should teach us to treat all creatures with sympathy and compassion. The key I think is not to regard the kammic approach as inferior to the salvific or nibbanic: threy are closely interwoven and interdependent.

You could also check out Prof Srevenson's book. He is an American psychiatrist whgo has researched alleged cases of 'past lives'.

See also M.I.403 in the Pali canon

Cheers...

[fabianfred]

I don't know why some posters think that it is virtually impossible to reach nirvana...

I am aware that some monks like to make it seem as if nirvana is something only for monks...and many Thais have this mistaken view.

Sometimes women ask the monks if they can reach nirvana and the monks say....yes...just make lots of merit...then get reborn as a male..then you can become a monk.......load of rubbish!!!

One of my teachers is a Thai lady, a mother and housewife...and I am sure she is Arahant...

Perhaps nirvana is a very difficult thing to achieve in a single lifetime....far better to aim for Stream-entry...a much more attainable goal.....with nirvana assured within a maximum of seven more lives.

[camerata]

I think it was from a thread dealing with Bikkhuni's or more precisely womens ranking in the Thai Theravada Sangha.

Here's a couple of quotes for you:

"A great many nuns have left testimony that they attained enlightenment [in the Therigatha]; and the tradition that no woman could become a Buddha is not in the Canon."

- Richard Gombrich, Theravada Buddhism

"When Somaa, a female arahant, was rebuked by Maara the Evil One, saying that womankind with very little intelligence cannot attain that state which is to be attained with great effort by seers and sages, Somaa replied that womanhood is no impediment for the realization of truth to one who is endowed with intelligence and concentration."

- Access to Insight

[rockyysdt]

I don't know why some posters think that it is virtually impossible to reach nirvana...

I am aware that some monks like to make it seem as if nirvana is something only for monks...and many Thais have this mistaken view.

Sometimes women ask the monks if they can reach nirvana and the monks say....yes...just make lots of merit...then get reborn as a male..then you can become a monk.......load of rubbish!!!

One of my teachers is a Thai lady, a mother and housewife...and I am sure she is Arahant...

I did some quick research on a thread involving Bikkhuni's in which there was doubt that there is even 5 Arahants alive today in Thailands Theravada Sangha.

This minuscule figure is the fruit of approx 500,000 ordained Thai Monks (google), all sworn to follow the Buddha's Dhamma.

It gives you an idea of the rarity of enlightenment.

The success rate must be even slimmer for the non ordained who must fulfill commitments to family & work.

Perhaps nirvana is a very difficult thing to achieve in a single lifetime....far better to aim for Stream-entry...a much more attainable goal.....with nirvana assured within a maximum of seven more lives.

With life so random & ones desires & choices so many, l can't see how you can be so sure.

Behavior in another Re Birth could send you back to the bottom.

The poignant concern is, who will be Re Born & who will be enlightened.

Aren't we all Impermanent & Conditioned & there is nothing inside to become enlightened?

[rockyysdt]

Didn't you or someone quote that the Buddha initially balked at female ordination?

Didn't he think that the times were wrong and those in power would reject the Dhamma due to female participation?

[Xangsamhua]

I think it was from a thread dealing with Bikkhuni's or more precisely womens ranking in the Thai Theravada Sangha.

Here's a couple of quotes for you:

"A great many nuns have left testimony that they attained enlightenment [in the Therigatha]; and the tradition that no woman could become a Buddha is not in the Canon."

- Richard Gombrich, Theravada Buddhism

"When Somaa, a female arahant, was rebuked by Maara the Evil One, saying that womankind with very little intelligence cannot attain that state which is to be attained with great effort by seers and sages, Somaa replied that womanhood is no impediment for the realization of truth to one who is endowed with intelligence and concentration."

- Access to Insight

Rocky, I wonder if you're thinking of this statement of mine from a thread on Theravada and women: In Theravada one of the requirements to be a bodhisatta is to be male (Lopez, D. The Story of Buddhism, HarperOne, 2001, p.66).

I'm just citing Lopez. If, as Camerata suggests, there's nothing in the Canon to suggest that a woman can't become a Buddha, then that would imply that Lopez is mistaken. However, is it possible that the Theravada Sangha may teach that women are disqualified from Buddhahood (or bodhisattahood) despite what the Canon says or does not say? I really have no idea. Those more familiar with the general teaching of Theravada sanghas may be able to tell us.

[rockyysdt]

Rocky, I wonder if you're thinking of this statement of mine from a thread on Theravada and women: In Theravada one of the requirements to be a bodhisatta is to be male (Lopez, D. The Story of Buddhism, HarperOne, 2001, p.66).

I'm just citing Lopez. If, as Camerata suggests, there's nothing in the Canon to suggest that a woman can't become a Buddha, then that would imply that Lopez is mistaken. However, is it possible that the Theravada Sangha may teach that women are disqualified from Buddhahood (or bodhisattahood) despite what the Canon says or does not say? I really have no idea. Those more familiar with the general teaching of Theravada sanghas may be able to tell us.

Thanks X.

Lopez comment on womens disqualification definitely doesn't bode well for them.

I suppose my thoughts on a womans situation comes from their status within the Sangha (cannot ordain) ánd former discussions in which others have quoted women being held back.

Denied the status of Monkhood at the very least is a large impediment to a womans ability to become enlightened and further supports my suggestion to Fred that enlightenment is extremely rare.

Having said that l'm afraid enlightenment for me will be even more unlikely, spending far too much time debating and less practicing.

I might aim for an early night, & begin the morning with some cleansing Asanas followed by focus on my breathe. My find is far to active, often coming up with many excuses to avoid sessions.

[camerata]

I'm just citing Lopez. If, as Camerata suggests, there's nothing in the Canon to suggest that a woman can't become a Buddha, then that would imply that Lopez is mistaken. However, is it possible that the Theravada Sangha may teach that women are disqualified from Buddhahood (or bodhisattahood) despite what the Canon says or does not say? I really have no idea. Those more familiar with the general teaching of Theravada sanghas may be able to tell us.

All Lopez says is, "In Theravada one of the requirements to be a bodhisatta is to be male." We don't know if he's talking about the Canon, the Commentaries, or tradition. Also, he's talking about becoming a (future) Buddha in the Theravada sense, not an arahant.

Gombrich seems to be making two points, first that according to the Therigatha (part of the Canon) many nuns became arahants and second, that "the tradition that no woman could become a Buddha is not in the Canon." To me this suggests that Lopez is talking about a tradition outside the Canon and it doesn't relate to arahants per se.

[camerata]

Didn't you or someone quote that the Buddha initially balked at female ordination?

Yes, but it concerned society's perception of females becoming renunciants as well as the potential for it causing problems within the Sangha. The Buddha never said females couldn't become arahants.