Cert Ed

[CareBear]

Hi,

I have a Certificate in Education, which is a full teaching qualification recognised in the UK. I have been teaching in England for 5 years. Will this be enough to be able to teach in Thailand. I have been offered a job, but they think the Thai Ministry of Ed won't accept it. Help!

Thanks

[Khun Bob]

Why would the ministry of ed be involved ? Surely its up to the company/school your going to work for ? Once youve got the job offer in writing you can get ur visa, then get a WP when your in Thailand. But of course to get a work permit they have to meet certain criteria - but this is less for teaching posts I think.

[kenkannif]

Min of Ed issues the teachers licence which gets you the work permit.

How long was the Cert ED 'course'???

[paully]

^ I guess he means a PGCE, Ken, so it would be a 9-10 month course. You shouldn't have many problems getting a decent job here with a PGCE + 5 years experience, CareBear, and at an international school too. The Ministry of Education should be falling over themselves to give you a teaching licence.

[alaina]

I think the guideline is 15 credits in Education (at least for the US system) will get you a license. Bring your transcripts when you come over.

I also have a certification and took some bad advice and started a TEFL course. It was a good grammar refresher but a waste of money as far as practical teaching stuff goes.

I only had one employer give me a hard time about not having a TEFL and he had no idea what he was talking about as far as the Ministry laws (and who wants to work for an idiot that thinks they aren't?) A few jobs require an overseas certification and BEd and they generally pay better than average.

[kenkannif]

15 credit hours of education as opposed to 15 credits (or at least that's what it seemed to be last year).

[Welshman]

I have been told that the PGCE is considered the equivalent of a degree.

Personally, I have a Welsh Joint Education Council certificate (part 1) and will be completing the C&G 7407 prior to my departing here in UK for Thailand.

I'm hoping that this, along with 20 year teaching in FE colleges, will suffice.

[CareBear]

Hi all,

Thanks for feedback, here's a bit more info'

The Cert Ed is the same course as a PGCE but you dont have a degree, PGCE is Post Grad Certificate in Ed. I also have Initial, Stage 1 & 2 in teaching. Which are the 7307 courses. All the teaching courses together took me 3 years to gain, so same amount of time as a degree but not a degree. I have been offered 3 jobs, but then they have all backed off saying they don't think ministry of Ed will accept this. With the latest I have to get a formal letter to say a Cert Ed is exactly equivalent to a BEd or a PGCE with a degree, it is not either. So i lose out on another job. Do you think it is pointless me trying??

[kenkannif]

No keep trying, the school if it pushes hard enough can get you legit.

[GTG]

No keep trying, the school if it pushes hard enough can get you legit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As TIT then I would imagine that schools with the right connections COULD possibly make this happen but, from my own sad experience, what carebear's prospective employers are telling him is quite correct, maybe they are my (former!) employers having learned from their previous mistake!?

The Cert Ed is the same course as a PGCE but you dont have a degree, PGCE is Post Grad Certificate in Ed. I also have Initial, Stage 1 & 2 in teaching. Which are the 7307 courses. All the teaching courses together took me 3 years to gain, so same amount of time as a degree but not a degree. I have been offered 3 jobs, but then they have all backed off saying they don't think ministry of Ed will accept this. With the latest I have to get a formal letter to say a Cert Ed is exactly equivalent to a BEd or a PGCE with a degree, it is not either. So i lose out on another job. Do you think it is pointless me trying??

The stumbling block is a change in attitude or interpretation of the rules at the Ministry of Education. Before they will issue a teacher's licence they now want to see the magic words 'Bachelor's Degree' as a minimum. The actual wording in the regulations, I believe, translates to Bachelor's Degree OR EQUIVALENT but there is nothing that states what they would accept as equivalent. I qualified in the UK in 1980, via a similar route, HND, industrial experience, then a Cert Ed. Did 13 years in the UK, then 9 in Thailand at 2 very prestigious schools, with teacher's licence and work permit. Went back to the UK for 2 years and then returned to a new job here and was refused. I got a letter from the GTC verifying that I have QTS (Qualiifed Teacher Status) in the UK and have held that for 25 years - not enough!

Depending on how you want to pursue things, it is worth considering that the Ministry do not have the resources to check on the authenticity of your degree, only that the institution that issued it is on the approved list in their little brown books. It is the responsibility of your employer to check that your degree is legit before they submit the paperwork - how many do you think actually do that?

Thus, something picked up on an afternoon's shopping in <not allowed sorry KK> would be better than an expensive purchase from a degree mill online. In fact that would probably be worth more than the combined total of my qualifications and experience!

You could try contacting UK NARIC and givng them details of your qualifications to see what they can offer, or you can also submit your details to the Thai Bureau for Higher Education on Sri Ayuttaya.

Good luck, you will probably need it!

Edited June 28, 2005 by kenkannif

[kenkannif]

No keep trying, the school if it pushes hard enough can get you legit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As TIT then I would imagine that schools with the right connections COULD possibly make this happen but, from my own sad experience, what carebear's prospective employers are telling him is quite correct, maybe they are my (former!) employers having learned from their previous mistake!?

Could EASILY make this happen to be honest maty, it's getting them to try.

The Cert Ed is the same course as a PGCE but you dont have a degree, PGCE is Post Grad Certificate in Ed. I also have Initial, Stage 1 & 2 in teaching. Which are the 7307 courses. All the teaching courses together took me 3 years to gain, so same amount of time as a degree but not a degree. I have been offered 3 jobs, but then they have all backed off saying they don't think ministry of Ed will accept this. With the latest I have to get a formal letter to say a Cert Ed is exactly equivalent to a BEd or a PGCE with a degree, it is not either. So i lose out on another job. Do you think it is pointless me trying??

The stumbling block is a change in attitude or interpretation of the rules at the Ministry of Education. Before they will issue a teacher's licence they now want to see the magic words 'Bachelor's Degree' as a minimum.

Not at all mate, a degree is NOT essential if your employer is willing to go to bat for you. They just have to show the ability to teach at the end of the day (but agreed still easier said than done)/

The actual wording in the regulations, I believe, translates to Bachelor's Degree OR EQUIVALENT but there is nothing that states what they would accept as equivalent.

I didn't even know it was written anywhere, can you show me or link me to the site?

I qualified in the UK in 1980, via a similar route, HND,

I know at least two people both in Bangkok (different schools though) that have both got a WP with their HND (within the last year or so).

industrial experience, then a Cert Ed.  Did 13 years in the UK, then 9 in Thailand at 2 very prestigious schools, with teacher's licence and work permit.  Went back to the UK for 2 years and then returned to a new job here and was refused.  I got a letter from the GTC verifying that I have QTS (Qualiifed Teacher Status) in the UK and have held that for 25 years - not enough!

You should easily have been able to get a TL and WP, were you looking to teach something special though? Where, who and what?

Depending on how you want to pursue things, it is worth considering that the Ministry do not have the resources to check on the authenticity of your degree, only that the institution that issued it is on the approved list in their little brown books.  It is the responsibility of your employer to check that your degree is legit before they submit the paperwork - how many do you think actually do that?

Yeah there's a good chance they won't even know it's not a degree, generally throw as much paper as possible at them and hope for the best. But like I said if the school really wants to help you get one they should be able to do so.

Thus, something picked up on an afternoon's shopping in <not allowed sorry KK> would be better than an expensive purchase from a degree mill online.  In fact that would probably be worth more than the combined total of my qualifications and experience!

Also as the MoE has a list of the degree mills (or at least some of them) they might spot it's not kosher right away.

You could try contacting UK NARIC and givng them details of your qualifications to see what they can offer, or you can also submit your details to the Thai Bureau for Higher Education on Sri Ayuttaya.

Certainly won't hurt to try.

[GTG]

Could EASILY make this happen to be honest maty, it's getting them to try.

I felt that at the time, KK, that it was probably as much down to an arbitrary decision by the clerk de jour which if they simply resubmitted the application, it might be accepted. The application was never rejected, so there was nothing which would be flagged on my file. They simply wouldn't take the paperwork as it stood. Had it been one of my previous schools, I didn't feel there would have been a problem, but the government liaison woman was a bit of a wimp and simply responded 'mai dai' evrey time I suggested something else. Amusingly enough, I jokingly suggest a shopping trip for a degree and was told this would be fine, any subject! When I mentioned this in passing to her superior, she had to quickly retract and say of course she was joking. I still have a copy of her memo!

Not at all mate, a degree is NOT essential if your employer is willing to go to bat for you. They just have to show the ability to teach at the end of the day (but agreed still easier said than done)

Well, your experience, or your friends', may be different to mine. I think in the original poster's case though, this is a major issue becasue the school aren't willing to give him the chance to prove what he can do.

The actual wording in the regulations, I believe, translates to Bachelor's Degree OR EQUIVALENT but there is nothing that states what they would accept as equivalent.

I didn't even know it was written anywhere, can you show me or link me to the site?

No, sorry, I only saw this in the copy of the regulations at the school. The law WAS changed before I left Thailand before, 2001 or 2002, but they have started to apply it more rigidly now. I think people currently in posts are OK, but if and when they leave, and an application for a new licence has to be made, then problems will/may arise.

You should easily have been able to get a TL and WP, were you looking to teach something special though? Where, who and what?

No, same as I got a licence/WP for before for 9 years. Business/ICT, Bangkok, small international school

You could try contacting UK NARIC and givng them details of your qualifications to see what they can offer, or you can also submit your details to the Thai Bureau for Higher Education on Sri Ayuttaya.

Certainly won't hurt to try.

Well, it certainly won't! See next post!!

[GTG]

In the end I decided that the best thing to do in the long term was to do whatever was necessary to get a 'proper' degree so I applied through the UK Open University for credit transfer on my existing qualifications which gave me 60% of the points needed for a BSc. Since February I have been doing 2 courses (which they recommend as the maximum for a year's full-time study (I was also doing 2 jobs at the time!). In October I will complete these and be fully up to requirements. Been a LONG time since I studied but I've enjoyed it all so far.

Meanwhile I applied for another job this week, having parted company with the previous employer a couple of months ago - no regrets, coyote! - and things seem very promising. Only problem is that they have 2 salary scales, a separate one for staff who aren't fully qualified which I would be placed on for however long it took to get verification that I have completed my degree. Bad news! (I have 3 others to support!)

Literally 5 minutes after my first post on this thread I received an e-mail from the Bureau for Higher Education telling me that the letter confirming 'degree equivalence' which I applied for about 5 months ago and didn't think I would get, is now awaiting my collection. Does God read this board?

Carebear, the person I dealt with at the Bureau was Khun Sombat. Tel. 023545481. You'll find more details through Google. They seemed quite thorough. Apart from taking copies of all original documents, they also wanted verification from the insitutions where I studied. They were both Polys which now have University status and he thought the headed paper with their new names would help, especially as the awarding bodies of my qualifications were both also defunct, the CNAA and BEC. Took a while to get, 25-30 years on, but in the end ........

Obviously this is easier if you are in-country but probably possible from outside. UK NARIC might be easier.

[paully]

Do you think it is pointless me trying??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I'd keep trying, CareBear. Sorry to hear about your problems and those of GTG. It does seem absurd that you, as a qualified teacher in England with QTS and with experience may not be accepted here in order to be given a Teaching Licence.

Edited June 28, 2005 by paully

[kenkannif]

Thanks for the info GTG appreciated for sure mate!

Paully,

Yeah I thought the same. I know a chap that had a cert of teaching from the UK (prior to BEds), so not a degree per se, although he was legal to teach in the UK. His school managed to swing it though. It truly is a sad day when a teacher qualified to teach in the UK is not qualified (in the eyes of the authorities here) to teach here. Shameful actually.

[GTG]

Oh well, it felt good for about a day! Went to collect my letter of 'degree equivalence' to find, as far as I can tell, a letter which basically says that my HND is equivalent to an Associate Diploma as issued by Thai colleges, no mention of the Cert Ed - as far as I can tell it wasn't even included in the submission because they will 'only consider the highest rated of your qualifications' and wouldn't consider the two diplomas plus n years experience as a 'package', no sign of the letters I faxed them from the Unis among the paperwork, basically after over 4 months' wait, nothing of any use whatsoever!

Sorry if I got your hopes up, Carebear, but another approach may be needed!

La di da

[CareBear]

Thanks all.

I will keep trying. I was hoping to get out there by the end of this year. Probably will eventually extend it to a BEd.

Keep me posted if any other advice though.

Ta.

By the way my teaching subject / area is special needs. So am looking for Learning support teacher / co-ordinator posts.

Edited June 30, 2005 by CareBear