American Arrested On Child Sex Charges In Chiang Mai

[saralynn]

Why did the girl wait till after multiple events before complaining? Why not the first time? Thai authorities always seem to have overwhelming evidence. We are either not getting all the facts or something just isn't right about this story.

Children often wait months or years to come forward about these kind of things. Sometimes they never come forward at all out of fear and misunderstanding. If her mother was putting her up to it, then it is amazing that it came out at all. Needless to say, I hope that it isn't true too.

You are right that something just isn't right about this story: 72 year old man allegedly molesting a 10 year old girl is definitely not right.

[prakhonchai nick]

Please be careful about assuming the worst things about male foreigners when you see them with Thai youngsters. Many of us are in legit relationships with Thai adults and are related to the Thai families, including of course actual Dads.

Very true

I was bad mouthed by a Geman couple in a Jomtien restaurant some years ago when I was with my 14 year old daughter. Fortunately, she overheard, and reprimanded them. They left abruptly, but not before (as I was to find out later) paying my bill.

[crazydrummerpauly]

This is nothing new about Thai authorities exposing farang suspects in front of the cameras. Gloating as well. You seldom or never see Thais treated that way.

Same double standard we are all used to living in this country.

Absolutely not true. Captured, usually pathetic-looking Thais are routinely shown on tv surrounded by the

weapons, documents and outcomes of their crimes, flanked by large, smug-looking BIB.

[Hatyaidanny]

If the Guy is found guilty he can look forward to some tough years ahead. The tougher the better!

[crazydrummerpauly]

There's at least one US NGO that's active in CM in trying to identify foreign child abusers and the like, periodically both they and the governor come under pressure to produce higher visibility results and we've seen evidence of the same in this forum over time. Now, I've no idea if this man is guilty or not but I have seen first hand the workings of said NGO where it related to a friend of mine who was arrested on similar charges five years ago, the "victim" was a "sixteen" year odd hill tribe "boy", the boy in question claimed to be eighteen - lots of quotes there simply because many of the hill tribe don't have ID or even birth records as indeed this "boy" did not. A few of us did however get together to try and help our friend out of a mess and in doing so the "boy" took us to the Thai school his guardian had enrolled him in many years before, the thinking being that the school records would provide a better indication of his true age. And indeed they did, the records confirmed that the boy was indeed eighteen although the school refused us copies of his records without written approval from the guardian and this was with held pending payment that couldn't be met.

In that instance he was found guilty and sentenced to four years in CM prison simply because he was unable to pay off the Prosecutor, it was put to him in the following way, we can write the charge as a one off offence or we can write it to state that it was a daily occurrence, every day for the past two years, the difference will be Baht 200,000. Needless to say our friend did his time and was duly deported.

So, for my part I like to keep a very very open mind on these issues, as emotive as the subject matter might be.

Highly thought-provoking post - thanks cm - and as usual where the Thai judicial system is concerned, hugely depressing and paranoia-inducing.

[ianf]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

It's a sad sign of the times in Chiangmai that mothers are touting their young children round town of a night time, especially round the moat near Thapae Gate. A very sad indictmemt of our times.

I've been in that area 100s of times - never seen anything like that. What I do see is little kids going into bars selling flowers and other nick nacks, or very late at night on the streets in Bangkok mixing with all the spivs down sukhumvit, or babies spending all day at the feet of beggars - now that's what I call child abuse. Makes my stomach turn.

[Colabamumbai]

Please be careful about assuming the worst things about male foreigners when you see them with Thai youngsters. Many of us are in legit relationships with Thai adults and are related to the Thai families, including of course actual Dads.

Very true

I was bad mouthed by a Geman couple in a Jomtien restaurant some years ago when I was with my 14 year old daughter. Fortunately, she overheard, and reprimanded them. They left abruptly, but not before (as I was to find out later) paying my bill.

I will soon have a 12 year old step daughter here, I am not looking forward to some of the comments that I expect to receive on the way to and from school and other places. She speaks a little Spanish and English as well as her native Thai, hopefully she will give them a run for their money.

[personchester]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

Considering the charges are correct, then there a strong possiblity that the girl was going into the guy's room with the consent of her mother, and it would of course have been for money, rather shocking.

Unfortunately this does happen, however, since those events are supposed to have taken place several times one has to ask the question why did the young girl (no doubt instructed by her mother) report this now to the police ... perhaps he run out of money and had to stop payment, then as a result "they" tried perhaps to blackmail him, and he was having none of it, hence the reporting to the police.

Whatever the true facts are, he will be in a difficult position to clear himself of the accusation, moreover, should there be witnesses (or just one) that saw the girl enter or exit his room then he is bound to charged and found guilty, because a normal chap would never allow himself to be placed in a position whereby a girl of minor age be with him alone in his room.

[millwall_fan]

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

That unfortunately isn't true. Under Thai law, as I understand it, the persson arrested is a suspect helping the police with their enquiries and is deemed to be neither innocent or guilty. Also under this essentially Napoleonic legal code the arrest is not made until much further down the road than is the case in most Western countries. That is why the police usually have strong evidence upon arrest.

As for 'crazydrummerpauly's comments: unless it can be proved that the relationship does not involve money changing hands - and few courts will believe that in the case of a foreigner- then prostitution is assumed and then the legal age is 20, not 18. So your friends conviction, imprisonment and deportation were absolutely correct under Thai law.

[KKK]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

My question as well... what do "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Tourist Police, and do they get a portion of the proceeds of the crimes committed by the Tourist Police, which would seem fair to me.

I'll not get into a discussion about what the "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Thai police (regular as well as tourist) as I think that anyone who has meet one of these, generally useless busy-bodies, already knows. But would like to comment why Thailand has/allows such a force. Having foreign volunteers in their police force is surely an admission of:

we don't know what we're doing because we're all so badly trained;

we can't speak the language

we're lazy and it's better to get someone else to do our work for us

or any combination of the above......If I was a Thai national I would be ashamed to think that my own police force was so inadequate that they have to have Foreign volunteers to get the job done...........is there any other country in the world that does this? I know of none.............

[Lizard2010]

Time will tell keep us all informed.

[Colabamumbai]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

My question as well... what do "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Tourist Police, and do they get a portion of the proceeds of the crimes committed by the Tourist Police, which would seem fair to me.

I'll not get into a discussion about what the "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Thai police (regular as well as tourist) as I think that anyone who has meet one of these, generally useless busy-bodies, already knows. But would like to comment why Thailand has/allows such a force. Having foreign volunteers in their police force is surely an admission of:

we don't know what we're doing because we're all so badly trained;

we can't speak the language

we're lazy and it's better to get someone else to do our work for us

or any combination of the above......If I was a Thai national I would be ashamed to think that my own police force was so inadequate that they have to have Foreign volunteers to get the job done...........is there any other country in the world that does this? I know of none.............

Public relations, the odd foreigner can get directions in English.

[KKK]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

My question as well... what do "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Tourist Police, and do they get a portion of the proceeds of the crimes committed by the Tourist Police, which would seem fair to me.

I'll not get into a discussion about what the "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Thai police (regular as well as tourist) as I think that anyone who has meet one of these, generally useless busy-bodies, already knows. But would like to comment why Thailand has/allows such a force. Having foreign volunteers in their police force is surely an admission of:

we don't know what we're doing because we're all so badly trained;

we can't speak the language

we're lazy and it's better to get someone else to do our work for us

or any combination of the above......If I was a Thai national I would be ashamed to think that my own police force was so inadequate that they have to have Foreign volunteers to get the job done...........is there any other country in the world that does this? I know of none.............

Public relations, the odd foreigner can get directions in English.

You don't need to be in uniform to give directions or the time of day........

[phuketrichard]

Please be careful about assuming the worst things about male foreigners when you see them with Thai youngsters. Many of us are in legit relationships with Thai adults and are related to the Thai families, including of course actual Dads.

Very true

I was bad mouthed by a Geman couple in a Jomtien restaurant some years ago when I was with my 14 year old daughter. Fortunately, she overheard, and reprimanded them. They left abruptly, but not before (as I was to find out later) paying my bill.

I will soon have a 12 year old step daughter here, I am not looking forward to some of the comments that I expect to receive on the way to and from school and other places. She speaks a little Spanish and English as well as her native Thai, hopefully she will give them a run for their money.

Various points

1. One does not start out at 72 being a peodophile.

2. Thai men are NEVER show in pics as being suspected of child molestation, yea drugs/guns/ money etc true but never being a pedophile.

3. PLUS if in the thai news it was stated the child was accompined by her mother, there was $$ exchanged and she wanted more

4. The police will search more later?? whats with this later and not asap?

5. My half thai/half american daughter lives with me since her mom left when she was 8. WE have never had any trouble with the two of us travelling out of the country and checking into hotels here/Singapore/Cambodia/Europe ect Thais do not question... The only upseting/embarassing thing i have found is when she stated looking older i would be asked what my gf /wife would have (in restautants)

6. Regardless of what he did, ( which no one will ever know) is he quilty of being a stupid fool for ever allowing an underage girl not related to him in his room alone (or was the mother there the whole time?)

Innocent until proven. what the thai newspapers and you all here have done is convicted him without him having any say at all just by posting this. Shame on you

Edited June 18, 2010 by phuketrichard

[billpatt]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

He is heavily suffering from Alzheimer and doesn't remember anything...

Someone can give me the definition of "sexually mollested"? From where to where does it go?

check here Sexual abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

doesnt take much imagination to determine what sexual abuse is my friend,

[chiang mai]

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

That unfortunately isn't true. Under Thai law, as I understand it, the persson arrested is a suspect helping the police with their enquiries and is deemed to be neither innocent or guilty. Also under this essentially Napoleonic legal code the arrest is not made until much further down the road than is the case in most Western countries. That is why the police usually have strong evidence upon arrest.

As for 'crazydrummerpauly's comments: unless it can be proved that the relationship does not involve money changing hands - and few courts will believe that in the case of a foreigner- then prostitution is assumed and then the legal age is 20, not 18. So your friends conviction, imprisonment and deportation were absolutely correct under Thai law.

I didn't want to go into all the detail of the case but our friend effectively lived with the boy in a CM guest house for about two years, prior to his arrest. As far as a his friends were concerned the two were a couple who were always together even in our company on nights out, dinner and at the bar. Did money change hands, wow, probably, in the same way that my father used to give my mother money for housekeeping each week, I trust that doesn't call my mothers morals into question in the eyes of the law!

[homeseeker]

I have no idea if he is guilty or not, which is for the Thai Courts to decide.

Not referring necessarily to this particular case, does anyone know if the Thai Authorities do background checks upon persons like retirees/long stayers to discover if anyone applying to be in Thailand long time has a criminal record in their home country?

And if not, why not?

If a check is done and it is discovered a person has a record such as for child abuse, then surely that person should not be allowed to be here?

If he is allowed to be in Thailand despite having such a known record, the Thai authorities ought to bear some responsibility if he commits a crime whilst here.

Edited June 18, 2010 by homeseeker

[Jirapa]

How does a (presumably) OLD, WHITE, man get a 10 year old Thai girl into a guesthouse alone? And not once, but multiple times? Isn't anyone at the front desk, or a cleaning person, or another guest, or anyone else at all around who asks what their deal is? I mean, everywhere I go people ask me where I'm from, where I'm going, how long I'm staying, if I'm married, anything and everything about my business.... So how does an old white man with a little Thai girl not set of any alarms?

And where were the child's parents/caretakers? Do they normally just not know where she is for substantial periods of time?

Really strange.

I mean, if the guy nabbed the girl on her way home from school once, then maybe it's a little more likely to have gone un-noticed. But this happened multiple times. You would think someone would notice.

I see what youre getting at, but maybe he simply befriended the family.

Or paid them money? My wifes' stepsister was sold by her grandmother to an old Thai man when she was 12. He took her as his wife so you can imagine what went on apart from her being a live in slave, cleaning, cooking and the other. Fortunately she escaped to go and live with her dad and the grandmother tried to kidnap her back several times and was finally forced under threat of death to pay the money back to the old man.

I take it there must be sufficient evidence against this guy to merit an arrest and the guest house staff most likely have testified against him. In respect to the hotel staff it's not unusual to see an old white Ferrang man with a Thai child or 2 as they often marry Thai women who have kids already. Alarm bells wouldn't automatically start ringing as the child may have seemed relaxed in his presence as predators tend to befriend their victims first with offers of money and gifts for that very reason. No pedophile wants to drag a distressed screaming child into the lobby a guest house! Sure hotels often ask many questions when you check in but if you check in alone it's easy enough to make up some crap like "I'm here to pick up my daughter as her mums in hospital having our baby". Kids under 15 don't have ID cards so what's the desk clerk going to check?

I have 2 mixed race Thai kids and an adopted Thai son and I've never been questioned at reception about why I'm booking into a hotel with 3 young children without my wife. Child sex offenders are extremely deceptive otherwise we'd be catching 20 a day.

[Paul123456]

Please be careful about assuming the worst things about male foreigners when you see them with Thai youngsters. Many of us are in legit relationships with Thai adults and are related to the Thai families, including of course actual Dads.

Yeah, I took my daughter to Bangkok where she got a flight to Australia earlier this year. On the trip to Bangkok, we travelled together and stayed in a guest house. All very normal for a dad and his daughter, but, it was hard to ignore the point that some people may be looking at me as if I was a paedophile.

[Jirapa]

I have no idea if he is guilty or not, which is for the Thai Courts to decide.

Not referring necessarily to this particular case, does anyone know if the Thai Authorities do background checks upon persons like retirees/long stayers to discover if anyone applying to be in Thailand long time has a criminal record in their home country?

And if not, why not?

If a check is done and it is discovered a person has a record such as for child abuse, then surely that person should not be allowed to be here?

If he is allowed to be in Thailand despite having such a record, the Thai authorities ought to bear some responsibility if he commits a crime whilst here.

It was years ago so can't remember to well but I seem to remember I did need a letter from my embassy to say my criminal record was clean? I think that was for my first non-immigrant visa but don't quote me on it? Anyone can get a 3 month visa without a check so sex tourism will always be rife until they sort that out.

[Portlandstone]

Wow, the website admin clearly enforces some simple posting rules and a few guidelines and all of a sudden we get a whole bunch of excellent, mature replies as well as some great personal stories shared. There are so many good replies that I don't have the time to add comment right now, but I sure enjoyed reading them. Again, a lot of good points were made.

[JackSterling]

72 years old??? with a 10 year old??? That is crazy.. I do not believe this story..

Do you really believe this story id fact or is it all a trumped up case??

I hope it is all bogus and false for both parties in question..

But if it is fact then he has to pay big time to the family and live out his days behind bars.

[PingManDan]

American man arrested for paedophilia

CHIANG MAI (TNA) -- An American man was arrested and alleged to have committed paedophilia, or having engaged in sex, with an underage child in this northern Thai province, according to provincial tourist police.

Police found evidence that the man identified as Wilbert Willis Holley, 72, had sexually abused a ten-year-old female student at a local school in Chiang Mai's provincial seat.

The girl told officials that she had been sexually molested several times by Mr Holley at a local guesthouse.

The suspect however denied the charge but the investigators are confidence that they have strong evidence to take legal action against him.

Police brought Mr Holley to search his residence in order to find whether or not there was further evidence for human trafficking or any other offences. (TNA)

-- TNA 2010-06-18

OK I have read where there are rules to abide by if we answer to this subject in this forum so I will say it right now, with this _sshole I can not keep from slandering him or mocking his actions, without really getting pissed of that there are people like this in the world and they seem to congregate to Thailand for the easy pickings in kids. Also it seems to be all about money, the mother taking her little kid to his room, I'm sorry she is just as guilty as he is. I will not write anymore on this subject and these crees, if I do then the moderator will surly close me down, and ban me from this site for life.

Edited June 18, 2010 by PingManDan

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

My question as well... what do "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Tourist Police, and do they get a portion of the proceeds of the crimes committed by the Tourist Police, which would seem fair to me.

I'll not get into a discussion about what the "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Thai police (regular as well as tourist) as I think that anyone who has meet one of these, generally useless busy-bodies, already knows. But would like to comment why Thailand has/allows such a force. Having foreign volunteers in their police force is surely an admission of:

we don't know what we're doing because we're all so badly trained;

we can't speak the language

we're lazy and it's better to get someone else to do our work for us

or any combination of the above......If I was a Thai national I would be ashamed to think that my own police force was so inadequate that they have to have Foreign volunteers to get the job done...........is there any other country in the world that does this? I know of none.............

Sadly I have to admit that Canada also allows volunteer police to assist them. They are not allowed to carry firearms and play more of a security assist type of role. These people tend to be individuals that have been rejected by the force and/ or are trying to get more community based hours for their next application to the force.

[kevozman1]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

It's a sad sign of the times in Chiangmai that mothers are touting their young children round town of a night time, especially round the moat near Thapae Gate. A very sad indictmemt of our times.

This has nothing to do with the times and more to do with the average Thai person's

morals. There are poorer places in the world but most people would rather starve

than let some sick git do this to their kids. Thailand really needs to sort this issue

out above all others as the place is getting a real bad name from these disgusting

trades.

[garyh]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

It's a sad sign of the times in Chiangmai that mothers are touting their young children round town of a night time, especially round the moat near Thapae Gate. A very sad indictmemt of our times.

If this is the case may suggest not advertising it further than it already has been.

[Considered Opinion]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

My question as well... what do "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Tourist Police, and do they get a portion of the proceeds of the crimes committed by the Tourist Police, which would seem fair to me.

I'll not get into a discussion about what the "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Thai police (regular as well as tourist) as I think that anyone who has meet one of these, generally useless busy-bodies, already knows. But would like to comment why Thailand has/allows such a force. Having foreign volunteers in their police force is surely an admission of:

we don't know what we're doing because we're all so badly trained;

we can't speak the language

we're lazy and it's better to get someone else to do our work for us

or any combination of the above......If I was a Thai national I would be ashamed to think that my own police force was so inadequate that they have to have Foreign volunteers to get the job done...........is there any other country in the world that does this? I know of none.............

Public relations, the odd foreigner can get directions in English.

One wonders about the directions he would get from most expats.. "suck-hole" would probably get a run.. and I agree. He is definitely odd.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Considered Opinion

[w11guy]

If he did do this at 72 yrs of age he must have done this god knows how many times before ... in cases like this they should check with his home country to see if he has done this before and use this evidence in court against him.

I don't think past evidence should be used in court. If it was allowed then once a person had committed an offence once, he would be an easy target for corrpt police if they couldn't find the real criminal. Do you really want court cases to come down to "of course he stole from the shop, we have proof that he did it in the past"?

Just because someone has committed an offence in the past doesn't mean they are guilt of any charge laid against them.

But of course, if he has committed such serious offences in the past he should either be banned from teh country or monitored closely.

[overdog]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

My question as well... what do "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Tourist Police, and do they get a portion of the proceeds of the crimes committed by the Tourist Police, which would seem fair to me.

I'll not get into a discussion about what the "volunteer wannabe cops" get out of helping the Thai police (regular as well as tourist) as I think that anyone who has meet one of these, generally useless busy-bodies, already knows. But would like to comment why Thailand has/allows such a force. Having foreign volunteers in their police force is surely an admission of:

we don't know what we're doing because we're all so badly trained;

we can't speak the language

we're lazy and it's better to get someone else to do our work for us

or any combination of the above......If I was a Thai national I would be ashamed to think that my own police force was so inadequate that they have to have Foreign volunteers to get the job done...........is there any other country in the world that does this? I know of none.............

Sadly I have to admit that Canada also allows volunteer police to assist them. They are not allowed to carry firearms and play more of a security assist type of role. These people tend to be individuals that have been rejected by the force and/ or are trying to get more community based hours for their next application to the force.

Foreign citizens volunteer (and are sanctioned) for this service in Canada? I think not. Thailand does seem exceptional in this regard.

Edited June 18, 2010 by overdog

[jcartermad]

Makes no odds guilty or innocent. Most so called "third countries" splash the dirt, (his picture, details, evidence & the like) on the front page BEFORE the trial or in many instances before the guy is charged. We are guests and it is their custom to print the details in advance. It is common to see "suspects" with heads bowed in front of the evidence, (drugs, guns, cash) etc. This guy may be innocent, i suspect differently however. Why would a 72 year old man want to be alone in an hotel room with a 10 year old girl? Perhaps he had some puppies he wanted to show her? Either way he should have played safe. Never put yourself in a position, if innocent, where others may think something is "going on". If he is innocent i pray to God he gets off. If he is guilty well so be it. Let the Thai's deal with it. As they say; "let the law take it's course". Nuff said.