Ministry Of Interior Holds Road Show On Rights Of Foreigners In Thailand

[hyperdimension]

There are already many threads and posts about the yellow Tabien Baan on this web site, enough to make you dizzy wondering what's correct and what's not.

I have one but have not found much use for it, other than to help in opening bank accounts, but even then it may not have been necessary.

[ianf]

I have heard (from other expacts) of the issuance of a "Yellow Book" strictly for foreigners... the tabien baan book is blue. My understanding of the yellow book is it provides ownership credentials for the expat husband of the Thai spouse, and ensures a "probationary" period of two years is met prior to being placed in the blue book.

Anyone know of this practice or have additional info?

No idea but I received my yellow book yesterday.

[Jimi007]

There are already many threads and posts about the yellow Tabien Baan on this web site, enough to make you dizzy wondering what's correct and what's not.

I have one but have not found much use for it, other than to help in opening bank accounts, but even then it may not have been necessary.

I'm not sure what it would do for me either. I have three Thai Bank accounts, a car and two motorbikes in my name, the house lease in my name, so I guess in theory I could get one?

[elliss]

my Thai neighbor spent 17 years in the US and holds both US Citizenship as well as Thai… she also receives the US Social Security income benefits from her dead husband… what a deal!

brilliant deal ,

just the type of lady , i want to meet, a good lady .

maybe , the deceased left her a house and car , a good man .

BTT , if you do not plan to return to your country of origin ,to pop your clogs .

IMO , farang would be better cared for , if had thai citisenship ,

and a happy ending in LOS.

[JohnLeech]

Here's a non-expert's recollection: I recall that if your wife owns the land that you live on and she dies, you had up to either 6 or 12 months to sell the land.

Waiting for an expert to respond...

Ditto - that's one thing the "experts" on the Real Estate Forum seem pretty unanimous about. Not all what the article says, which is pretty clear: " the spouse of a Thai person can inherit one rai of land for residential or commercial purposes or 10 rai of agricultural land if their Thai spouse dies. If the spouse held more than the requirement, then the foreign partner has one year to sell or to give away."

[ChiangMaiMail]

It seems there has been some confusion regarding the information written in the Chiang Mai Mail article. Please be aware that the road show was held at the request of Prime Minister Abhisit and was run by high ranking government officials in all departments; Ministry of Interior, Immigration, BOI, and the Dept of Land. All information in the article is coming directly from these government officials.

Edited June 26, 2010 by ChiangMaiMail

[geriatrickid]

The article highlighted one of the greatest frustrations for folks that want to contribute to society;

The Labour Department was next, again citing the various regulations for work permits. Chris Hedges of the Chiang Mai Expats Club put forth a question that concerns many Chiang Mai residents; that of the definition of work and those retired expats who wish to volunteer to help in their new homes. The Labour Department official, while not refusing to put forth the idea to the committee stated, “Retirees are not here to work. Their visa is issued for one particular purpose and they have to adhere to that.”

Retirees are the backbone of alot of charities outside of Thailand. Those old folks bring with them experience and skills that you just can't find in younger people. If you look at the volunteers in a lot of hospitals it is usually some older woman that takes the time to sit and talk to an elderly patient or a scared kid. The labour ministry's position is shortsighted and downright idiotic. The volunteers won't be taking jobs away from anyone , but will instead be sharing their knowledge and hearts with others. Free training if you will. Volunteering is what keeps a lot of retirees healthy and functioning. An ollder person that wants to volunteer but is then obliged to do nothing with his or her life is doomed to a boring life and an early death. Volunteering is an intrinsic part of living for some.

[Mario2008]

Section 93 The Minister shall permit the inheritance of land by an alien who is the lawful heir, but such acquisition when added to that which s already held may not exceed the amount which may be held under Section 87.

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/land_code_act_2497.html

((This is the old act, but it does not seem to be ammended by the 1999 reviosion of the act).

The amendment act can be found here:

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/land_code_amendment_act_text.html

Note that the first part of the document starts with an explanation of the changes, by the Land Department.

After point 7 it states the following:

Besides the aforementioned rules and conditions, an alien may acquire land by inheritance as statutory heir, in this instance, the land devolved when combined with the land already acquired shall not exceed that specified by law, for examples, land for residential purpose not exceeding 1 rai per household, land for commercial purpose not exceeding 1 rai, land for industrial purpose not exceeding 10 rais, and land for agricultural purpose not exceeding 10 rai per household.

This is an assesment of the new act made by the legal division of the Land department.

[JUDAS]

It is interesting that the article confirms that foreigners can have their name added to a tabien ban (household registration) and don't have to own a condo or hold PR for that.

The law seems to confirm this. I found this in the Thai civil registraton act (2008):

"Section 36. The district or local registrar shall issue a household registration for every house of both persons with Thai nationality and without Thai nationality having a domicile within the Kingdom of Thailand."

"Section 38. The district or local registrar shall issue a household registration for persons without Thai nationality having been permitted to stay temporarily and

those having been giving leniency for temporary residence in the Kingdom of Thailand as a special case in accordance with law on immigration and the declaration

of the Cabinet and their children born within the Kingdom of Thailand. In a case of permission of temporary residence overdue, the registrar shall immediately dispose of

such persons.

The Director of Central Registration shall make profile registration for persons without Thai nationality besides those under paragraph one in accordance with the

declaration of the Cabinet.

Registrations under paragraph one and two shall lie in the manner prescribed in the regulations under the discretion of the Director of Central Registration."

http://unesdoc.unesc...621/162153e.pdf (page 154)

That should make things as opening a bank account and buying a car easier, without the need for embassy letters or immirgation letters confirming your residency.

Thanks for the pdf Mario. Do you or anyone else have a Thai language version available?

[Mario2008]

Thai version here: http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0016/001621/162153tha.pdf

[BlackGrape]

Thai version here: http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0016/001621/162153tha.pdf

OK, just been through the blue book s*&t today. I went with the gf and wanted my name on the book. Farangs have only monday - friday for doing it.Bummer. She had it in 5 mins

Talked to my next door neighbour and he said it is the law that any farang can get on the registration book but as we are farangs it has to be on a mon-fri. You also will expect an interview from some big cheese in the goverment office.

Let you know how I get on on Monday

[BlackGrape]

Thai version here: http://unesdoc.unesc...1/162153tha.pdf

OK, just been through the blue book s*&t today. I went with the gf and wanted my name on the book. Farangs have only monday - friday for doing it.Bummer. She had it in 5 mins

Talked to my next door neighbour and he said it is the law that any farang can get on the registration book but as we are farangs it has to be on a mon-fri. You also will expect an interview from some big cheese in the goverment office.

Let you know how I get on on Monday

PS, I think that's what he said... He's got 5 rai of land. Must be true

[Bagwan]

The official discussed the inequalities facing Thai women married to foreigners stating that it is a cultural construct, “While we have equal rights under the Constitution, the law is different. Men are regarded as the head of the family in our culture, they need to be able to earn a living and support their wives.”

Hmm. All too often it is the other way around. She earns the dosh, he spends it.

[Arkady]

It also says that you can inherit one rai of land when your wife will die. Does this mean that you can own a house if it is built in that one rai and do not have to sell it? In a sense, you become a house owner?

I don't see anyone commenting in this, is this old news?

Regards,

This provision has been in the Land Code since it was first promulgated. However, it was disingenuous of the official to try to present this as an automatic right and not to mention that the permission of the Interior Minister is required. Has anyone ever heard of the Interior Minister giving permission for this? I haven't and I suspect it may never have been granted or, at least, not in recent years. Probably what happens in practice is that the newly bereaved husband goes to some cost to get a lawyer to complete a tedious application process and then, like the people waiting for years for the minister to approve their PR applications, doesn't hear anything back from the Interior Ministry. Meanwhile, the time limit for estate to hold the property on the foreigner's behalf expires and the wife's relatives are baying at the door to exercise their inheritance rights and evict bereaved son-in-law from his house and cash it in.

I think the 1999 provision to allow foreigners investing B40 million to own a rai of residential land is similar. It took several years for the Interior Minister to issue the enabling ministerial regulations and I have never heard of anyone successfully doing this.

I would strongly advise any one with a house in their wife's name and without Thai children to register a life time usufruct agreement for nil consideration (therefore nil tax) at the Land Department. This gives you more, even if not absolute, protection in the event your wife predeceases you and doesn't prejudice your right to apply to inherit the property. To attempt to exercise the inheritance claim, it is important that your wife has specifically willed the property to you to lessen the claims of her family under Thailand's French style "right of succession" inheritance laws.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Arkady

[Arkady]

I have heard (from other expacts) of the issuance of a "Yellow Book" strictly for foreigners... the tabien baan book is blue. My understanding of the yellow book is it provides ownership credentials for the expat husband of the Thai spouse, and ensures a "probationary" period of two years is met prior to being placed in the blue book.

Anyone know of this practice or have additional info?

No idea but I received my yellow book yesterday.

A tabien baan is a census document and has nothing to do with ownership of property. A foreigner can be the lead name "jao baan" in a tabien baan of a house, with the consent of the owner, because because that means "head of household", not "owner" and carries the responsibility of reporting changes in the composition of the household. There is no concept of probation. A blue book (TR14) is commonly given to Thais and permanent residents and a yellow book (TR13) is commonly given to foreigners without PR but the colours are not specified in the Registration of Persons Act. They may be specified in ministerial regulations but some district offices, particularly in Bangkok, have been known to add foreigners without PR to their wife's blue book.

District office officials are notably ignorant of the regulations. I have a blue book as head of household, as a PR, and I have been questioned in a hostile way in district offices as to how I managed to get a blue book. One head of registrations at a district office went so far as to claim the blue book was only for Thai citizens and Chinese with PR - what an idiot!

Edited July 18, 2010 by Arkady

[Arkady]

The Chiang Mai Mail piece is no longer available on their website but is reproduced here http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/ministry-of-interior-rights-of-foreigners-road-show-t17608.html

Regarding renunciation of original nationality the Interior official seems to be referring to the wording in the Nationality Act that permits revocation of Thai nationality of naturalized Thais if there is evidence to show they are making use of their former nationality (Section 19.2). However, no mention of renunciation of original nationality was made to applicants for Thai nationality until October 2009 when the Interior Ministry issued new guidelines that required a declaration of intention made at the applicant's embassy to be included with the application. The more militant attitude to dual nationality from the Interior Ministry is probably in response to the 2008 Nationality Act that provides for foreign men married to Thai women to apply for Thai nationality without being permanent residents first. The Ministry obviously felt this might open the floodgates to allow thousands of foreigners married to bar girls to get Thai nationality and decided to take action. (Thaksin's collection of passports of other banana republics might also have something to do with it. It is not at all clear what "use of former nationality" means in the Nationality Act. Attempting to enter or leave Thailand with a foreign passport would seem clearly to fit the bill but what about leaving Thailand to travel to, say, the US on a Thai passport without a US visa in it?

Section 21 of the Nationality Act provides for the revocation of Thai nationality of Thais who have been naturalized as aliens but doesn't say this is mandatory. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs happily issues new Thai passports to Thais living abroad, even though it is obvious from the lack of visas in their Thai passports that they have another nationality. The MFA's website even clarifies that the law neither specifically prohibits nor supports dual nationality which it interprets to mean they can issue passports to known duals.

The current regime at the Interior Ministry is probably building up to try to amend the Nationality Act to make it specifically illegal to have dual nationality. That would lead to an outcry from dual nationals who are now a large group, since the 1992 Nationality Act allowed Thai women to pass on their nationality to their children with foreign fathers. There are also a lot of influential Thais with dual nationality who would be against any restrictions. Probably things will remain vague as they are now but dual nationals should be alert for any changes.

[scorecard]

The article also confirms that one is now required to give up your old nationality if you want to become a Thai citizen. That will make it a lot less atractive to a lot of people.

But it is still a bit vague and I guess the last hasn't been said about his. First they say you can not use your passport of the old nationality, than they claim you must give up your nationality. But it seems in line what immigration is telling.

I still wonder about this point.

I called a senior consular official at the Australian embassy who I know quite well. She says that for most countries there is a mutual regulation that the original citizenship must be relinquished however there are still specific arrangements with some countries which allows for dual citizenships/passports.

[scorecard]

I have heard (from other expacts) of the issuance of a "Yellow Book" strictly for foreigners... the tabien baan book is blue. My understanding of the yellow book is it provides ownership credentials for the expat husband of the Thai spouse, and ensures a "probationary" period of two years is met prior to being placed in the blue book.

Anyone know of this practice or have additional info?

No idea but I received my yellow book yesterday.

A tabien baan is a census document and has nothing to do with ownership of property. A foreigner can be the lead name "jao baan" in a tabien baan of a house, with the consent of the owner, because because that means "head of household", not "owner" and carries the responsibility of reporting changes in the composition of the household. There is no concept of probation. A blue book (TR14) is commonly given to Thais and permanent residents and a yellow book (TR13) is commonly given to foreigners without PR but the colours are not specified in the Registration of Persons Act. They may be specified in ministerial regulations but some district offices, particularly in Bangkok, have been known to add foreigners without PR to their wife's blue book.

District office officials are notably ignorant of the regulations. I have a blue book as head of household, as a PR, and I have been questioned in a hostile way in district offices as to how I managed to get a blue book. One head of registrations at a district office went so far as to claim the blue book was only for Thai citizens and Chinese with PR - what an idiot!

I agree that some oficials are poorly informed and/or sometimes put their own opinions above the laws and regulations but I'll quickly add that you can find this in any country in the world.

I've had PR for nearly 15 years. When I got the appoval letter I went to the local amphur office (luckily with the agent who handled the matter for me). The lady at the office flatly refused to issue the Residence Certificate book, loudly telling everybody (officials and Thai customers) that she did not accept that foreigners could have PR. My agent quickly found the officer in charge, who came to that station, told the lady who was being beligerant to go home / insisted that she go home, then sat at her station, asked a couple of the other people what to do and he proceeeded to issue me with the blue PR book.

He apologized numerous times as did the more junior staff who helped him. He also quietly explained to my agent that the woman concerned was often very rude to Thai customers without cause and that she came from a very powerful family and that he could nothing to punish her or sack her.

More recently my family decided that we would transfer the ownership of the family car from my name to my adult Thai son's name. We took all the car documents, son's personal documents, my personal documents to the govt., office at Jatuchuk.

The obnoxious woman insisted that their is no such thing as PR and therefore my PR book was a fake. When her back was turned one of the junior staff quickly scooped up my PR book, Police reg. book and our family Tabien Bann book and told my son to hide them. She has apparently destroyed documents in the past.

Initially she refused to process anything, which meant that the tax expired and for several days the car sat at the govt., office unegistered.

Suddenly my son got a phone call from another officer explaining that the obnoxious lady was in hospital and that if we came quickly he would process everything. We went quickly, within an hour all done, my son offered a small payment, it was refused and instead we got sincere apologies from the staff.

On the other hand, decades back I was a member of a Vietnamese refugee support group in Melbourne Australia. On numerous occasions the refugees encountered totally obnoxious govt. officers who tried their hardest to be as rude and beligerant as they could be.

On a trip to America (landed at LA) my passport was handled quickly and politely, in the next lane my Thai professional colleages (all had visas in advance, all had accepted personal invitations to a professional seminar and had included a copy of the invitation in the documents they handed to the passport officer) were spoken to with extreme rudeness and given absolute hel_l.

Not nice but it happens everywhere.

Edited July 19, 2010 by scorecard

[Mario2008]

The article also confirms that one is now required to give up your old nationality if you want to become a Thai citizen. That will make it a lot less atractive to a lot of people.

But it is still a bit vague and I guess the last hasn't been said about his. First they say you can not use your passport of the old nationality, than they claim you must give up your nationality. But it seems in line what immigration is telling.

I still wonder about this point.

I called a senior consular official at the Australian embassy who I know quite well. She says that for most countries there is a mutual regulation that the original citizenship must be relinquished however there are still specific arrangements with some countries which allows for dual citizenships/passports.

Sorry, but that sounds as nonsense. Thai nationality is regulated by the nationality act, it doesn't allow for treaties with other countries regarding dual nationality. The most what they can regulate by treaty is to inform each other about acquiring each others nationality.

Most countries have such an act, regulating their nationality. It is not being regulated by treaty.

Some countries allow acquiring another nationality, some others allow it only in certain circumstances or when you have dual nationality by way of law (birth) and some countries don't allow one to renounce their nationality.

[evanson]

I have heard (from other expacts) of the issuance of a "Yellow Book" strictly for foreigners... the tabien baan book is blue. My understanding of the yellow book is it provides ownership credentials for the expat husband of the Thai spouse, and ensures a "probationary" period of two years is met prior to being placed in the blue book.

Anyone know of this practice or have additional info?

I'vealways had a blue book, but with only my address in it, no names, nothing

[Rucharee]

Why give rights to farangs.

They don't even belong to this country.

[Mario2008]

Why give rights to farangs.

They don't even belong to this country.

Maybe because there is only one race, the human race?

[elkangorito]

Why give rights to farangs.

They don't even belong to this country.

So, you think that everybody should stay in their own country? Of course, this excludes the money brought in by tourists.

Do I detect a tiny level of xenophobia?

[Chunky1]

You have to give up your old Nationality to become Thai?

That stinks.

[Rucharee]

You have to give up your old Nationality to become Thai?

That stinks.

Wrong.

Mark is both British & Thai.

And I also knew a guy who is both American & Thai.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Rucharee

[SomTumTiger]

You have to give up your old Nationality to become Thai?

That stinks.

Wrong.

Mark is both British & Thai.

And I also knew a guy who is both American & Thai.

I've put up with your nonsense long enough - ignored.

[mrtoad]

Why give rights to farangs.

They don't even belong to this country.

So, you think that everybody should stay in their own country? Of course, this excludes the money brought in by tourists.

Do I detect a tiny level of xenophobia?

I think retardation is more likely with said poster.

[elkangorito]

Why give rights to farangs.

They don't even belong to this country.

So, you think that everybody should stay in their own country? Of course, this excludes the money brought in by tourists.

Do I detect a tiny level of xenophobia?

I think retardation is more likely with said poster.

...or culturally induced xenophobia.

[Rucharee]

Why give rights to farangs.

They don't even belong to this country.

So, you think that everybody should stay in their own country? Of course, this excludes the money brought in by tourists.

Do I detect a tiny level of xenophobia?

I think retardation is more likely with said poster.

...or culturally induced xenophobia.

Take a look at yourselves in the mirror. No matter what, Farangs are not Thais, and cannot be Thai.

[Arkady]

I agree that some oficials are poorly informed and/or sometimes put their own opinions above the laws and regulations but I'll quickly add that you can find this in any country in the world.

I've had PR for nearly 15 years. When I got the appoval letter I went to the local amphur office (luckily with the agent who handled the matter for me). The lady at the office flatly refused to issue the Residence Certificate book, loudly telling everybody (officials and Thai customers) that she did not accept that foreigners could have PR. My agent quickly found the officer in charge, who came to that station, told the lady who was being beligerant to go home / insisted that she go home, then sat at her station, asked a couple of the other people what to do and he proceeeded to issue me with the blue PR book.

He apologized numerous times as did the more junior staff who helped him. He also quietly explained to my agent that the woman concerned was often very rude to Thai customers without cause and that she came from a very powerful family and that he could nothing to punish her or sack her.

More recently my family decided that we would transfer the ownership of the family car from my name to my adult Thai son's name. We took all the car documents, son's personal documents, my personal documents to the govt., office at Jatuchuk.

The obnoxious woman insisted that their is no such thing as PR and therefore my PR book was a fake. When her back was turned one of the junior staff quickly scooped up my PR book, Police reg. book and our family Tabien Bann book and told my son to hide them. She has apparently destroyed documents in the past.

Initially she refused to process anything, which meant that the tax expired and for several days the car sat at the govt., office unegistered.

Suddenly my son got a phone call from another officer explaining that the obnoxious lady was in hospital and that if we came quickly he would process everything. We went quickly, within an hour all done, my son offered a small payment, it was refused and instead we got sincere apologies from the staff.

On the other hand, decades back I was a member of a Vietnamese refugee support group in Melbourne Australia. On numerous occasions the refugees encountered totally obnoxious govt. officers who tried their hardest to be as rude and beligerant as they could be.

On a trip to America (landed at LA) my passport was handled quickly and politely, in the next lane my Thai professional colleages (all had visas in advance, all had accepted personal invitations to a professional seminar and had included a copy of the invitation in the documents they handed to the passport officer) were spoken to with extreme rudeness and given absolute hel_l.

Not nice but it happens everywhere.

Nice story Scorecard. It is quite an extreme example but illustrates very well the point that it is sometimes necessary to find ways around ignorant or plain bloody minded officials in district offices. Imagine the problems the poor hill tribe people have in trying to register on tabien baans or particularly registering their right to Thai citizenship under the 2008 Nationality Act. And yes, officials in Western countries can also be obnoxious. A friend of mine was intimidated very rudely by a US immigration official who tried for reasons better known to himself to get her surrender her green card on the spot because she had not been full time in the US for a couple of years, even though she was fully within her rights to retain it indefinitely by going to the US once a year. The British Home Office holds on to passports of applicants for indefinite leave to remain for months on end and on one occasion lost nearly all of them and invited the applicants to reapply after getting new passports from their embassies.

The incident I referred to earlier happened when I tried to exercise my right to get married as a PR without an affirmation of freedom to marry letter from my embassy. Another very obnoxious woman claimed that I shouldn't have a blue tabien baan because I am not ethnically Chinese and called her boss, the head of registrations. To add insult to injury her boss tried to assert that all my Thai documents must be fake because the ID prefix "8" is reserved for Thai citizens from birth (actually is reserved for PRs and PRs who later become Thai). I explained politely to him how the ID prefix system works and remarked to the people in the queue what a shame it was that the officials there don't know the regulations and we left before they could call the police to arrest me for having false ID documents. A taxi ride to another district office produced friendly, knowledgeable officials who did the job without a murmur of complaint. It is clear that more rigorous training is required for district officers. It is possible to file a complaint to the Administrative Court but probably a speedier complaints and appeals system is needed and should be publicised to keep officials on their toes.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Arkady