Cripes Are Things Changing At School

[yabaaaa]

In with the Swampy passport control thread link was this gem about shcools

Respect for Thai Teachers Ceremony - Samut Prakan (Paknam) จังหวัดสมุทรปราà¸à¸²à¸£ เมืองปาà¸à¸™à¹‰à¸³

[mahtin]

Richard Barrow knows you can't kick against the pricks.

[Chunky1]

In the International Schools, the farang teachers and students positions are reversed.

[isanbirder]

When visiting a Thai school, I've had students shuffle up on their knees and bang their foreheads on my knee. Why not stop them? Because it would have upset the Headmistress who, after all, is there all the time, when I'm only a visitor. I disapproved, but couldn't change it.

Edited June 25, 2010 by isanbirder

[Chunky1]

Sounds like a pedophiles dream come true

[geriatrickid]

To some foreign observers, such images suggest respect and discipline. Unfortunately, the gestures are insincere as students are still lippy and inattentive. The images sum up the state of the education system in Thailand: On the surface it's all prim and proper, but dig a little deeper and all there is; emptiness. Oh sure, there will be a chorus of "don't judge from a western perspective", or "Western schools are far worse with gangs and violence etc." Well, the reality is that the educational systems where students challenge instructors produce the innovations and discoveries that move society forward. When is the last time a Thai university came up with a life changing discovery or innovation? Japanese R&D labs are distinguished by the typica Japanese decorum, but they also feature some knock ;em out drag 'em down conforntations as do their counterparts in Korea and Taiwan. Even in India, students will confront a prof if they disagree with a position. The best profs are the ones that  encourage a challenge. A challenge doesn't mean being rude or insubordinate

.My friend spends a couple days each term; making decorations for the ceremony where his profs are honoured. In the west, private companies would sell such an  activity as a team building exercise, but anyone that has been obliged to participate in such events knows it is a waste of time. Teamwork is achieved through shared goals and a fun experience, not through the monotony of making floral arrangements and decorating tables. I ask him, well, do you have tutorials, you know where you sit down with the prof and discuss the seminar material and share thoughts and arguments? Oh no, he says, you cannot do that. The prof lectures and you the student listen and regurgitate the info on the exam.Great, but that's not learning.

Edited June 25, 2010 by geriatrickid

[elkangorito]

I agree with Geriatrickid...Wai Kru is an egotistical display of nothingness.

Nonetheless, I feel that western education would benefit from understanding this Thai ceremony.

An artificial concept of 'respect' may be 'programmed' into Thai students but if you do show respect for students (not in the Thai way), the students respond in kind.

At work, some of the 'old' teachers dislike me. Why? Because I have gained the respect of my students whereas they (the old farts) demand it. My students & I 'have fun' & I have a tendency to 'cut loose' when Thai teachers are not present.

The old saying "Respect is earnt & not deserved" has no place in Thai Culture. Thai Culture is all about 'show' & not about truth or reality.

Amend dysfunctional Thai Culture & things may improve for everyone.

[phetaroi]

To some foreign observers, such images suggest respect and discipline. Unfortunately, the gestures are insincere as students are still lippy and inattentive. The images sum up the state of the education system in Thailand: On the surface it's all prim and proper, but dig a little deeper and all there is; emptiness. Oh sure, there will be a chorus of "don't judge from a western perspective", or "Western schools are far worse with gangs and violence etc." Well, the reality is that the educational systems where students challenge instructors produce the innovations and discoveries that move society forward. When is the last time a Thai university came up with a life changing discovery or innovation? Japanese R&D labs are distinguished by the typica Japanese decorum, but they also feature some knock ;em out drag 'em down conforntations as do their counterparts in Korea and Taiwan. Even in India, students will confront a prof if they disagree with a position. The best profs are the ones that  encourage a challenge. A challenge doesn't mean being rude or insubordinate

.My friend spends a couple days each term; making decorations for the ceremony where his profs are honoured. In the west, private companies would sell such an  activity as a team building exercise, but anyone that has been obliged to participate in such events knows it is a waste of time. Teamwork is achieved through shared goals and a fun experience, not through the monotony of making floral arrangements and decorating tables. I ask him, well, do you have tutorials, you know where you sit down with the prof and discuss the seminar material and share thoughts and arguments? Oh no, he says, you cannot do that. The prof lectures and you the student listen and regurgitate the info on the exam.Great, but that's not learning.

On the one hand, all that you say is true. But, it's their country. If that's what the Thais want, who are we to say "no". Clearly Thailand does not want to be the United States or Japan, etc. It should be their choice, even if its a poor choice.

[yabaaaa]

To some foreign observers, such images suggest respect and discipline. Unfortunately, the gestures are insincere as students are still lippy and inattentive. The images sum up the state of the education system in Thailand: On the surface it's all prim and proper, but dig a little deeper and all there is; emptiness. Oh sure, there will be a chorus of "don't judge from a western perspective", or "Western schools are far worse with gangs and violence etc." Well, the reality is that the educational systems where students challenge instructors produce the innovations and discoveries that move society forward. When is the last time a Thai university came up with a life changing discovery or innovation? Japanese R&D labs are distinguished by the typica Japanese decorum, but they also feature some knock ;em out drag 'em down conforntations as do their counterparts in Korea and Taiwan. Even in India, students will confront a prof if they disagree with a position. The best profs are the ones that  encourage a challenge. A challenge doesn't mean being rude or insubordinate

.My friend spends a couple days each term; making decorations for the ceremony where his profs are honoured. In the west, private companies would sell such an  activity as a team building exercise, but anyone that has been obliged to participate in such events knows it is a waste of time. Teamwork is achieved through shared goals and a fun experience, not through the monotony of making floral arrangements and decorating tables. I ask him, well, do you have tutorials, you know where you sit down with the prof and discuss the seminar material and share thoughts and arguments? Oh no, he says, you cannot do that. The prof lectures and you the student listen and regurgitate the info on the exam.Great, but that's not learning.

On the one hand, all that you say is true. But, it's their country. If that's what the Thais want, who are we to say "no". Clearly Thailand does not want to be the United States or Japan, etc. It should be their choice, even if its a poor choice.

But is it what they want because if you stand up and act differently you'll get knocked down and thats the problem in all societies.

[wayfarer108]

To some foreign observers, such images suggest respect and discipline. Unfortunately, the gestures are insincere as students are still lippy and inattentive. The images sum up the state of the education system in Thailand: On the surface it's all prim and proper, but dig a little deeper and all there is; emptiness. Oh sure, there will be a chorus of "don't judge from a western perspective", or "Western schools are far worse with gangs and violence etc." Well, the reality is that the educational systems where students challenge instructors produce the innovations and discoveries that move society forward. When is the last time a Thai university came up with a life changing discovery or innovation? Japanese R&D labs are distinguished by the typica Japanese decorum, but they also feature some knock ;em out drag 'em down conforntations as do their counterparts in Korea and Taiwan. Even in India, students will confront a prof if they disagree with a position. The best profs are the ones that  encourage a challenge. A challenge doesn't mean being rude or insubordinate

.My friend spends a couple days each term; making decorations for the ceremony where his profs are honoured. In the west, private companies would sell such an  activity as a team building exercise, but anyone that has been obliged to participate in such events knows it is a waste of time. Teamwork is achieved through shared goals and a fun experience, not through the monotony of making floral arrangements and decorating tables. I ask him, well, do you have tutorials, you know where you sit down with the prof and discuss the seminar material and share thoughts and arguments? Oh no, he says, you cannot do that. The prof lectures and you the student listen and regurgitate the info on the exam.Great, but that's not learning.

If they did it your way, Thailand wouldn't have the character it does, which some of us prefer to the way it's done in the 'civilised' West. To each his own - I find one day a year set aside for Wai Khru to be a charming and worthwhile custom.

[yabaaaa]

When is the last time a Thai university came up with a life changing discovery or innovation?

I always laugh when my wife points out in the park a certain water aerator and its "inventor", ranks right up there with the jet engine I say, I usually get a puzzled look

[elkangorito]

I don't find Wai Kru to be 'charming'. On the contrary, I find it to be nothing less than another barrier against needed change.

At the recent Wai Kru, a 'doctor' came to give a speech. This well reknowned Thai 'doctor' (his title by academic achievement) said/did some amazing things. Video cameras recorded the whole event.

This is what this 'doctor' did:

1] Inform the students that they should be thankful to their parents etc etc. This was accompanied with the showing of a couple of abnormal childbirth (no cencorship) clips, whereby the mother was 'cut' to allow for the size of the child. Clearly, the audience was moved (except me). Many students cried & this 'doctor' asked them (the crying students) to come to the front of the stage.

Within minutes, many others were crying.

2] Several clips of 'spirits' (ghosts) were shown. The 'spirits' appeared as circular images (a lighter shade) on the video/picture.

Amazingly, he then produced images captured from the current audience, of 'spirits' near the students. Everybody seemed to be in awe/shock/amazement.

This 'doctor' spoke for at least 2 hours. I was told his fee was 10 000 Baht per hour.

Clearly, this Wai Kru was more about indoctrination than 'real' respect.

I feel sorry for the students who believed his rubbish.

Edited June 25, 2010 by elkangorito

[Chunky1]

just curious do they have this stuff at international schools? i just can't imagine the rich kids kneeling before farang teachers... plus, i think i would have definitely heard something about it on thai visa. 5555

[gotglue]

just curious do they have this stuff at international schools? i just can't imagine the rich kids kneeling before farang teachers... plus, i think i would have definitely heard something about it on thai visa. 5555

St. Stephen's International School on Vibhavadi does it.......My daughter asked me if she could take the day off, "alot of nonsense and a waste of time" she said.

Daddy Gotglue got his lay-in on Teacher's Day =D

[yabaaaa]

I don't find Wai Kru to be 'charming'. On the contrary, I find it to be nothing less than another barrier against needed change.

At the recent Wai Kru, a 'doctor' came to give a speech. This well reknowned Thai 'doctor' (his title by academic achievement) said/did some amazing things. Video cameras recorded the whole event.

This is what this 'doctor' did:

1] Inform the students that they should be thankful to their parents etc etc. This was accompanied with the showing of a couple of abnormal childbirth (no cencorship) clips, whereby the mother was 'cut' to allow for the size of the child. Clearly, the audience was moved (except me). Many students cried & this 'doctor' asked them (the crying students) to come to the front of the stage.

Within minutes, many others were crying.

2] Several clips of 'spirits' (ghosts) were shown. The 'spirits' appeared as circular images (a lighter shade) on the video/picture.

Amazingly, he then produced images captured from the current audience, of 'spirits' near the students. Everybody seemed to be in awe/shock/amazement.

This 'doctor' spoke for at least 2 hours. I was told his fee was 10 000 Baht per hour.

Clearly, this Wai Kru was more about indoctrination than 'real' respect.

I feel sorry for the students who believed his rubbish.

Yep never ceases to amaze me!!

[Livinginexile]

When is the last time a Thai university came up with a life changing discovery or innovation?

I always laugh when my wife points out in the park a certain water aerator and its "inventor", ranks right up there with the jet engine I say, I usually get a puzzled look

My wife was telling me today that the Thai rain making technology is now being used in the drought stricken areas up north. When I told her this idea was completely perposterous she chastised me

Edited June 25, 2010 by Livinginexile

[GuestHouse]

Where does this "Respect has to be Earned" crap come from.

I was always taught we should start by respecting others regardless of whether we know them or not.

But of course there is a difference between respect and blind reverence and it is blind reverence that is being taught here - It's on the national curriculum, so it is a national policy and the schools are doing their bit to train the children in blind reference so that it can be applied right across the social spectrum.

[SomTumTiger]

As a teacher, who's attended this ceremony many times, I've always found it to be a moving, and humbling experience, that reminds me of my responsibility to these students. Some of the calls to "abolish" this cultural practice are quite baffling to me. My guess is, they come from bar jockeys.

[SomTumTiger]

Yes, this horrible practice, must obviously be abolished, as it is destroying the country... http://www.mahidol.ac.th/thailand/teacher.html

Edited June 26, 2010 by SomTumTiger

[beano2274]

When is the last time a Thai university came up with a life changing discovery or innovation?

I always laugh when my wife points out in the park a certain water aerator and its "inventor", ranks right up there with the jet engine I say, I usually get a puzzled look

My wife was telling me today that the Thai rain making technology is now being used in the drought stricken areas up north. When I told her this idea was completely perposterous she chastised me

To Livinginexile - That is because it was an idea by HRH The King if my memory serves me correct.

Edited June 26, 2010 by beano2274

[beano2274]

When is the last time a Thai university came up with a life changing discovery or innovation?

I always laugh when my wife points out in the park a certain water aerator and its "inventor", ranks right up there with the jet engine I say, I usually get a puzzled look

My wife was telling me today that the Thai rain making technology is now being used in the drought stricken areas up north. When I told her this idea was completely perposterous she chastised me

To Livinginexile - That is because it was an idea by HRH The King if my memory serves me correct.

actually he has it patented - http://www.out-law.com/page-6996

[saraburioz]

As a teacher, who's attended this ceremony many times, I've always found it to be a moving, and humbling experience, that reminds me of my responsibility to these students. Some of the calls to "abolish" this cultural practice are quite baffling to me. My guess is, they come from bar jockeys.

Wai Kru and farang is pathetic - Thai kids are generally brought up to dislike us. Tt is totally hypocritical having farang partake in these 'Thai' festivals.

[toybits]

Personally, I find this practice a bit over the top. But who am I to say this? It is not my culture. If some of us feel that it is not right, you are welcome to have your own opinion. However, we foreigners have NO RIGHT to say what is right or wrong to do. It must be Thais themselves who must instigate changes. The chances of this happening is probably close to nil - because people of this country are afraid of offending the established practices. Tsk tsk.

[GuestHouse]

Personally, I find this practice a bit over the top. But who am I to say this? It is not my culture. If some of us feel that it is not right, you are welcome to have your own opinion. However, we foreigners have NO RIGHT to say what is right or wrong to do. It must be Thais themselves who must instigate changes. The chances of this happening is probably close to nil - because people of this country are afraid of offending the established practices. Tsk tsk.

While I respect your right to stick and sock down your own throat, I'll thank you not to dictate what the rest of us can and cannot say.

Quite clearly any foreigner with a child in Thai education system has an interest in and absolute right to comment on what their child is being subjected to.

But you've identified fear as being the reason why Thais don't comment - what's your own reason for wanting to deny others the right to expressing an opinion?

[JetsetBkk]

Yes, this horrible practice, must obviously be abolished, as it is destroying the country... http://www.mahidol.a...nd/teacher.html

The writer of that article could do with a couple more years learning English.

[cmsally]

The rituals of wai khru are believed to have derived from ancient animistic beliefs, influenced by the spread of Brahmanism from India. This is evident in the wai khru ceremonies of traditional dance and music, where specific mention is made to Ishvara and Narayana, along with other Vedic deities. Wai khru has for most of history existed as a folk tradition, passed on from generation to generation throughout the years.[1]

The wai khru ceremony in its modern form, which is held in most schools today, originated at Triam Udom Suksa School in 1941. The sarabhañña chant was written by Thanpuying Dussadee Malakul Na Ayutthaya (the wife of ML Pin Malakul, director of the school at the time).[2]

from Wikipedia Wai Kru history

Not really Thai culture as such , but more like modern Thai culture.

Another extension of the deities of religion and myth into the human sphere.

Some Thais just love the "respect" and worship thing.

[yabaaaa]

As a teacher, who's attended this ceremony many times, I've always found it to be a moving, and humbling experience, that reminds me of my responsibility to these students. Some of the calls to "abolish" this cultural practice are quite baffling to me. My guess is, they come from bar jockeys.

Your guessing wrong on my behalf, I dont drink alcohol, reckon Guesthouse is an alcoholic though

[yabaaaa]

I always laugh when my wife points out in the park a certain water aerator and its "inventor", ranks right up there with the jet engine I say, I usually get a puzzled look

My wife was telling me today that the Thai rain making technology is now being used in the drought stricken areas up north. When I told her this idea was completely perposterous she chastised me

To Livinginexile - That is because it was an idea by HRH The King if my memory serves me correct.

actually he has it patented - http://www.out-law.com/page-6996

I did "hint" at its creator not wishing to break TV rules, yet it hardly ranks alongside the jet engine does it?

[yabaaaa]

Personally, I find this practice a bit over the top. But who am I to say this? It is not my culture. If some of us feel that it is not right, you are welcome to have your own opinion. However, we foreigners have NO RIGHT to say what is right or wrong to do. It must be Thais themselves who must instigate changes. The chances of this happening is probably close to nil - because people of this country are afraid of offending the established practices. Tsk tsk.

While I respect your right to stick and sock down your own throat, I'll thank you not to dictate what the rest of us can and cannot say.

Quite clearly any foreigner with a child in Thai education system has an interest in and absolute right to comment on what their child is being subjected to.

But you've identified fear as being the reason why Thais don't comment - what's your own reason for wanting to deny others the right to expressing an opinion?

Talking of the Thai education system , is it legal to teach your own child at home and NOT send them to school here or get a private tutor at home? ps I dont want any comment on any child gaining social experience by going to school etc , just to know if they can be taught at home by a private tutor totally bypassing the Thai education system?

[SomTumTiger]

Farangs won't be happy until Thailand is "Just like the UK/US, etc". Of course, when that happens, they won't want to live here anymore...