Utter Deception

[lekandgary]

How come most of the TEFL schools offer job placements after taking one of there wonderful courses, but none of them mention that you need a degree to obtain a work permit and cannot get a work permit with a stand alone TEFL certificate. The whole setup is a complete fraud, I feel sorry for the victims who are lured into this falsehood.

Some governing body should rectify the misleading statements made by these fraudsters as they are making a lot of on a pack of lies.

[Musongman]

"There's a sucker born every minute" I believe the old saying goes. Caveat emptor my friends, caveat emptor!!!

[inthepink]

Not an entirely fair comment as it is possible to get a work permit without a degree.

[lekandgary]

Not an entirely fair comment as it is possible to get a work permit without a degree.

Pray tell, how does one obtain a work permit regarding teaching English in Thailand without a degree?

[Jingthing]

It is the client's responsibility to understand what they are buying. I don't see that these schools did anything wrong UNLESS they are telling clients that not having a degree is not an issue.

[ozzieovaseas]

The simple answer to your question lies within the simple hint that this thread will probably be closed down very quickly

[thomo]

Not an entirely fair comment as it is possible to get a work permit without a degree.

Pray tell, how does one obtain a work permit regarding teaching English in Thailand without a degree?

School writes a letter.

You have a number of years teaching experience.

Work for a government project, such as the Nonthaburi Experience or whateveritwascalled.

Are three ways off the top of my head.

You sound very angry and bitter. It also appears to be misdirected.

Edited July 15, 2010 by thomo

[skybluestu]

But before it does get closed down, and as none of the usual suspects who usually remind people of this fact have yet, I would like to make the OP aware that there are many teachers working legally here in Thailand with a WP who don't have a degree. I know of at least six where I live that don't (and I live in a fairly small city) and they are bl00dy good teachers too! This subject has been brought up so many times on thaivisa and ajarn.com that people should stop ignoring the facts and making things up.

Sure, it's getting harder to get started if you don't have a degree, and it could become more difficult for those without degrees to renew their WP's in the future, but for now it's not a legal requirement. There are some area's where WP's aren't issued to applicants without a degree but, like many things in Thailand, it depends on how a particular officer on a particular day interprets the rules.

[Jingthing]

On the other hand, this thread is a good thing if some people are learning for the first time that not having a degree is quite often a really big problem.

[thomo]

not having a degree is quite often a really big problem.

Not really, no.

[BWPattaya]

My neighbour is a teacher. No degree, just a TEFL.

[thomo]

Would hazard a guess that about 50% of people teaching here, don't have a WP.

Virtually all those with a WP break the stringent rules in one way or an other just by doing their job.

[ozzieovaseas]

not having a degree is quite often a really big problem.

Not really, no.

ERR...but getting charged and deported is a really big problem, is it no??

The problem starts when guys who havent got degrees get lucky and land a job out in the sticks but in doing so are sometimes then tempted to work without the correct Visa...Some such schools will hardly encourage you, or even go to the bother of having to arranging one for you.

IMO, If a guy has forked over a small fortune to obtain the TEFOL without all the relevant info, (through no fault of his own other than not doing enough research) he is more likely to take that risk..

So yes, i think the OP has a vaild point and i agree with JT, posts such as these do serve a good purpose.

Such a pity that all areas of Thai law are so darn indecisive..you can either live or die by the sword

[Scott]

I think people need to remember that not everyone taking a TEFL plans on staying/teaching in Thailand. Some use the certificate for teaching in other countries. Every country sets their own laws and regulations concerning foreign workers.

It has been getting increasingly harder to find decent employment without a degree, especially in the larger cities. As I understand it, it rural areas, they do grant the correct visa and work permits to those without degrees.

There are different governmental bodies handling different areas of the education system.

[thomo]

not having a degree is quite often a really big problem.

Not really, no.

ERR...but getting charged and deported is a really big problem, is it no??

Charged with what? Deported for what?

For having a WP without a degree?

For teaching without a WP?

Can you show one instance where either have happened?

[inthepink]

Not an entirely fair comment as it is possible to get a work permit without a degree.

Pray tell, how does one obtain a work permit regarding teaching English in Thailand without a degree?

It is not a legal requirement to have a degree in order to teach English. It might be harder to find work without one, but by no means impossible as several other posters have pointed out.

Edited July 15, 2010 by inthepink

[aidenai]

How come most of the TEFL schools offer job placements after taking one of there wonderful courses, but none of them mention that you need a degree to obtain a work permit and cannot get a work permit with a stand alone TEFL certificate. The whole setup is a complete fraud, I feel sorry for the victims who are lured into this falsehood.

Some governing body should rectify the misleading statements made by these fraudsters as they are making a lot of on a pack of lies.

That's a bit harsh, lekandgary.

Let's try to get things clear.

- The Alien Employment Act BE 2521 or The Working of Alien Act BE 2551 don't state that teachers should have a degree to obtain a work permit.

- The Ministry of Education nor The Ministry of Labour require that you have a TEFL Certificate. A TEFL Course is vocational education and helps you a lot in starting your job as a teacher though.

- Many schools, government or private, resort under, or comply with the Office of the Basic Education Committee which is a department of the Ministry of Education. In general you could say that the OBEC sets the educational standards for Thai schools providing primary and secondary education. Thus not kindergarten, universities or language schools and obviously International Schools.

- The Teachers' Council of Thailand, another department of the Ministry of Education sets the rules for teachers' standards and requirements. It are they that have stated that persons involved in education (OBEC-education) should have a degree in education.

My experience is that currently most schools aren't interested in the TCT's rules and can hire whoever they want. However, some Immigration Offices and Labour Offices want to see a teacher license or exemption issued by the TCT.

[ozzieovaseas]

not having a degree is quite often a really big problem.

Not really, no.

ERR...but getting charged and deported is a really big problem, is it no??

Charged with what? Deported for what?

For having a WP without a degree?

For teaching without a WP?

Can you show one instance where either have happened?

Well as far as i have been told, a certain Thai law was ammended in the past that now says that you must have a degree (any degree) in order to be employed as an English teacher in Thailand.

So..if working without the correct qualification is against the law, is it still Ok to break the law because others have not been caught doing so??

I dont know if others have been deported, and for what reason, but i am sure there has must have been others prosecuted for working without a work permit..I for one will not take the risk for 30k baht a month.

There was a case i remember on this site about a farang guy drawing portait pics of people in a market and charging a small amount of baht for them..and not having a work permit...he was supposed to have got prosecuted but i do not know what happened to him.

Also there have been reports on these boards of teachers obtaining work from using fake degrees that all had the same dean undersigning the degrees despite being from many different countries (he got around a lot?). They were eventually caught..what happened to them i dont know..

SO, next you will no doubt say these teachers were busted for act of using fake degree and not because they were actually working??

If so,and, if what you are saying is true, then why would these people feel the need to take such a risk as to have a fake degree to get work?

[thomo]

You haven't actually answered any of my questions.

They're really very easy.

Charged with what? Deported for what?

For having a WP without a degree?

For teaching without a WP?

See.

[thomo]

But just to humour you.

Well as far as i have been told, a certain Thai law was ammended in the past that now says that you must have a degree (any degree) in order to be employed as an English teacher in Thailand.

Nonsense.

So..if working without the correct qualification is against the law, is it still Ok to break the law because others have not been caught doing so??

working without a degree is not against the law.

I dont know if others have been deported,

For teaching English without a WP? No, they haven't.

and for what reason, but i am sure there has must have been others prosecuted for working without a work permit..

Just for teaching? no.

[thomo]

Also there have been reports on these boards of teachers obtaining work from using fake degrees that all had the same dean undersigning the degrees despite being from many different countries (he got around a lot?). They were eventually caught..what happened to them i dont know..

Some imprisoned, some deported. This is talk of fake degrees, nothing to do with having a WP without a degree, or working without a WP.

SO, next you will no doubt say these teachers were busted for act of using fake degree and not because they were actually working??

Of course. That's what they were prosecuted for. For fraud. Submitting fraudulent documents to the government of Thailand in order to obtain a WP. Whether they worked or not had nothing to do with their cases.

There was a case i remember on this site about a farang guy drawing portait pics of people in a market and charging a small amount of baht for them..and not having a work permit...he was supposed to have got prosecuted but i do not know what happened to him.

This has absolutely zero to do with teaching without a degree.

If so,and, if what you are saying is true, then why would these people feel the need to take such a risk as to have a fake degree to get work?

You'd have to ask them, I am simply me.

Anything else before you answer the questions?

Edited July 16, 2010 by thomo

[Scott]

This is a discussion forum for teachers and about teaching. It's not an argument forum. So stay on topic.

Turning in fake degrees is fraud and if I recall correctly, there was a thread some time back about a couple of teachers who were caught with them. I believe they were put in prison. As a general rule, once you get out of prison, you are deported.

I don't know of anyone who has been deported for working without a work permit--provided that is the only offense. Others may know of deportation, I don't recall ever hearing of it myself.

[troehr]

Not an entirely fair comment as it is possible to get a work permit without a degree.

Pray tell, how does one obtain a work permit regarding teaching English in Thailand without a degree?

I know many teachers working full time with work permits who do not have degrees. It is not required to have a degree to get a work permit. It might be required for certain schools to hire you.

[Wallaby]

Like ozzie, I'm a bit confused.

Why would someone need a fake degree if it wasn't illegal to work as a teacher without one. Surely if a degree is not needed then you wouldn't have a fake one, no need.

Seems a bit silly to me for someone to say that they were deported for fraud because they had a fake degree when that doesn't answer the question, why have it when it is not needed?

Edited July 17, 2010 by Wallaby

[Ijustwannateach]

From the Teaching Subforum Guidelines:

12. It is at present not illegal to teach without a degree or TEFL certificate as long as one has a work permit to do so and has not misrepresented his/her educational background. Individual schools may or may not accept TEFL teachers without degrees. It is erroneous and not permitted on the forum to claim that teaching without a degree is illegal.

A warning has been issued to the OP for violating this guideline. Please be aware of subforum guidelines before posting.

Discussion of the DIFFICULTY of finding work without a degree, however, is not forbidden. I and others here have mentioned frequently our belief that teaching without a degree, in some types of schools, in some areas, is becoming more difficult. Others disagree. Personal experiences in this regard are welcome. I am personally aware of people teaching legally, with a degree, with a work permit, but I am also aware from recent reports here that it is not as simple (if it ever was simple) as it apparently was 5 or 10 years ago.

Furthermore, though we do not allow naming and shaming without a very strong source (e.g., news article), since no specific course is mentioned here I don't see a problem with raising the issue of being careful around TEFL course provider claims IN GENERAL. Of course you should be careful about what is claimed, do your homework first, shop around, etc., etc. (and perhaps get advice from our sponsors). It would be erroneous for TEFL course providers to claim that there are *absolutely no* limitations or differences for those who have no degrees compared with those who do- after all, more qualified is more qualified. In my experience the claim that there is SOME kind of work out there for most people still seems to be true, though I myself question how sustainable some of that work is for a non-degreed person looking to have a stable, secure future.

[Scott]

The question you ask is rather complicated. When someone gets a teaching job the process is this: 1. The school requests a letter from the Ministry of Education (MOE). The MOE reviews the credentials, and in many cases this involves the degree AND the transcript. This is a cursory process and involves photocopies of documents. It can take anywhere from about 1 to 6 weeks. The potential (or in many cases the working) employee then goes to a consulate/embassy outside of Thailand (usually)with the letter and the registration papers of the school and gets the non-immigrant visa. The school then applies for a Teacher's License (TL)or waiver and a Work Permit. Once issued, the employee is legal.

Now some consulates/embassies do NOT require the letter from the MOE; some do. Some immigration offices (or officers) do not require a TL to renew an existing employee.

The school does most of the work and most of them will know what they can/cannot do, if they have a history of employing foreign teachers. If not, they may get lost in the paperwork.

It's not uncommon for the next Ministry in the chain of command to approve an application that has the previous Ministries approval. So, if you can get the non-immigrant visa, it's much easier. The waiver for the TL, as I understand it, is reasonably easy--at least the first two year waiver.

Via the grapevine, I understand that some consulates are easier than others. Hull in the UK jumps to mind. The LA consulate recently issued a non-immigrant B to one of our teachers without the MOE letter. He called them before relocating to Thailand and was told that he didn't need it--just bring his degree, transcripts and letter of employment and registration papers of the school with him (not much help to those without a degree).

We have had posters report that the owner of their school is good friends with immigration and other officials and they have no problem.

Where I work, there is no shortcut and the officers involved will stop everything dead without ALL the documents.

[BruceMangosteen]

People hired at my school without a degree. They got WP's and VISA's and letters from the TCT.

Most don't have a TEFL Certificate. They got WP's and VISA's and letters from the TCT.

Many don't speak English well(non native). They were hired and got WP's and VISA's and letters from the TCT.

Play games and dish out a lot of free time, show movies etc. and you will be in, good evaluations from students and offered renewals.

Any outfit which says "job guaranteed" is looking for the most naive and generally folks who haven't ever found/had a job.

[thomo]

So your school is hiring non-native speakers, who don't speak English well, don't have a degree or even a TEFL and get them WPs etc.

What salary and benefits do they get if you don't mind me asking?

Edited July 18, 2010 by thomo

[Scott]

I suggest you stay on-topic and the topic is not about the benefits and salary at a particular school.

[mssabai]

I am confused though about this issue. In the town that I used to work in, all the teachers who had degrees had work permits and non-bs, all those who didn't have degrees, either had work permits based on fake degrees or instead did not have a work permit and were doing visa runs. Maybe it has more to do with how your local labour office determines the law? It was certainly accepted by all the schools, teachers and agents in that area that you could not get a work permit without a degree certificate It seems that each province has their own rules and interpretations of the law.