Extinguishing -ve Karma

[Neeranam]

I have believed that -ve karma could be extinguished through good acts, karma yoga and meditation. However, I spoke to a monk from Wat Ban That, in Udon Thani today on the telephone, and he said that according to his teacher, Luang Ta Maha Bua, who is now 93 years old, negative karma is with us forever, it is like a coiled spring waiting to go off. He said that only when one reaches the first stage of Nirvana, then it can be locked out.

He spoke to me for some time and to be honest a lot was way over my head.

What do you guys here think?

It is a bit worrying, as I did some pretty negative things in my youth, of which I haven't had the karmic results, I think.

[bina]

neeranam,

not to pry, but, why are u so worried all of a sudden (lots of spirituality questions, etc)... in your past you've done the spirituality thing twice (if i remember) and fell back to drugs etc... are u teetering on the verge again, or what??

stop worrying about things that u cant change, and just concentrate (in the budhist mindfulness manner) on what u do now... remember, buddhism is about moderation, not extreme actions due to 'panic'....

jai yen

[Gohonzon]

I have believed that -ve karma could be extinguished through good acts, karma yoga and meditation. However, I spoke to a monk from Wat Ban That, in Udon Thani today on the telephone, and he said that according to his teacher, Luang Ta Maha Bua, who is now 93 years old, negative karma is with us forever, it is like a coiled spring waiting to go off. He said that only when one reaches the first stage of Nirvana, then it can be locked out.

He spoke to me for some time and to be honest a lot was way over my head.

What do you guys here think?

It is a bit worrying, as I did some pretty negative things in my youth, of which I haven't had the karmic results, I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Neeranam

I'm not sure if you understood what the monk spoke when he offered you advice on karma--or whether it was just plain wrong what he told you.

Karma is not like fate that is with us like a stone around our necks. It is an active force that changes from moment to moment. However, there are two types of karma--fixed and mutable--fixed karma is harder to change as it is carried with us through past lifetimes and will be come manifest when the right conditions arise. Mutable karma is that which we create in each moment by our thoughts, intentions and actions. Basicially bad actions create bad karma, and good actions good karma.

We begin to change our karma as soon as we begin to actively effect both ourselves and our environment through our Buddhist practice.

Here are a couple of short pieces to read through concerning karma:

http://www.sgi.org/english/Buddhism/more/more13.htm

http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/faqs/karma.html

I also note from a previous post that you have been somewhat eclectic in you search on the Buddhist path. Nothing wrong with that. But I can offer you a contact for the Soka Gakkai ,which is fairly strong in Thailand and has a Rainbow group that meets in Bangkok ,consisting of foreign members. If you wish further information then please send me a message.

Kind regards

[chownah]

Do you think that consciously trying to manipulate your karma brings good karma or bad karma? To me it seems like it would bring bad karma since it is a type of struggling against the world. I'm speaking mostly theoretically here since I don't know if I even believe in karma in the mechanistic way most people seem to believe. I think karma is an explanation of how things happen. This does not mean it has anything to do with explaining how you can change what happens.

[camerata]

I have believed that -ve karma could be extinguished through good acts, karma yoga and meditation. However, I spoke to a monk from Wat Ban That, in Udon Thani today on the telephone, and he said that according to his teacher, Luang Ta Maha Bua, who is now 93 years old, negative karma is with us forever, it is like a coiled spring waiting to go off. He said that only when one reaches the first stage of Nirvana, then it can be locked out.

He spoke to me for some time and to be honest a lot was way over my head.

What do you guys here think?

It's a complex subject and I've found that you get a different take on it even from monks in the same tradition. Some books (many of which are written by monks) emphasize what might happen in future lives as a result of bad actions (i.e. bad karma), others focus on what we can do to improve our situation in this life. One book that goes into it pretty deeply is Good, Evil and Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching by P.A. Payutto.

Basically, you can think of karma as the traditional Scales of Justice. Bad actions weigh it down on one side and good actions pull it down on the other. So you can balance out the bad karma by good karma. Some of the results will be seen in this life. For example, if you practise "right speech" almost certainly people will like you more than if you go around abusing them. Your resulting happier state of mind is the fruit of that good karma.

According to Ajarn Payutto, Buddhism recognizes other laws which affect our lives in addition to the law of karma, such as the natural physical laws and laws of heredity. So my understanding is that if I am hit by a bolt of lightning while walking down the street, it has nothing to do with bad karma from a past life. It's just a random natural event, and I'll carry on where I left off in the next life. So, personally, I don't believe that the people killed by the tsunami all were reaping the fruits of bad karma (I've heard this called "collective karma"), although I think some people would disagree.

It is a bit worrying, as I did some pretty negative things in my youth, of which I haven't had the karmic results, I think.

You've probably had some of the results already - such as your present state of mind - but didn't realize it. But you'll never know how much good karma is required to balance out, say, the killing of one mosquito. Better just strive to do good things. There are many books which outline the actions which represent good karma.

[camerata]

Good, Evil and Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching is available online here.

[Neeranam]

Here are a couple of short pieces to read through concerning karma:

http://www.sgi.org/english/Buddhism/more/more13.htm

http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/faqs/karma.html

Good reading, thanks

Good, Evil and Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching is available online here.

Thanks for that.

neeranam,

not to pry, but, why are u so worried all of a sudden (lots of spirituality questions, etc)... in your past you've done the spirituality thing twice (if i remember) and fell back to drugs etc... are u teetering on the verge again, or what??

Not at all Bina. I actually am feeling very stable but have a spiritual hunger.

[chownah]

Here are a couple of short pieces to read through concerning karma:

http://www.sgi.org/english/Buddhism/more/more13.htm

http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/faqs/karma.html

Good reading, thanks

Good, Evil and Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching is available online here.

Thanks for that.

neeranam,

not to pry, but, why are u so worried all of a sudden (lots of spirituality questions, etc)... in your past you've done the spirituality thing twice (if i remember) and fell back to drugs etc... are u teetering on the verge again, or what??

Not at all Bina. I actually am feeling very stable but have a spiritual hunger.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does spiritual hunger = desire? Is desire the source of delusion and suffering?

[bina]

glad u caught that chowna... was gonna ask same....

good to hear neeranam, the thing is, is spiritual hunger/desire breeds discontent whichis the opposite of what buddhism is about (as far as i understand it in really basic simple terms)...the more u search to fulfill that hunger, the hungrier u become... because there is no real 'spiritual ' meal that can fulfil a feeling of disatisfaction/desire, other than getting rid of the desire in the first place....

a sort of catch 22 since in order to know about desire/suffering etc etc u have to desire to know more ......

[sabaijai]

If you search for "karma" in the Buddhism branch of this forum, you'll find lots of discussion.

Two of the more extensive threads can be found at:

Karma, When Do You Acquire It Or Solve It?

and

Do You Believe In Karma?

One thing to note is that the result of karma is vipaka, in other words you don't carry karma with you. However all karma leads to vipaka. Whether it's 'good' (kusala) or 'bad' (akusala) determines the vipaka.

Wat Ban That and P.A. Payutto are both very good sources on the topic, from the Theravadin view.

[camerata]

a sort of catch 22 since in order to know about desire/suffering etc etc u have to desire to know more ......

In the overall scheme of things, this isn't really a problem. The objective of a Buddhist is enlightenment. And, as Henepola Gunaratana said so eloquently: "Enlightenment is not something you wish for. It is the state that you end up in when all your wishes come to an end."

[chownah]

In my previous post, "Does spiritual hunger = desire? Is desire the source of delusion and suffering?", I did not mean to imply that I think that having desire is a bad thing...on the contrary it is the condition that we all find ourselves in. I don't think you can eliminate desire by rejecting it or denouncing it. I think the first step is to admit to the desire and then try to observe how it emerges.

[what_is_karma]

Sawasdee

There are lots of definitions of karma on the internet, and millions more in books, but by far the most inspirational one I have read is here

What is Karma

Also the guy who wrote it has this strange lump on his forehead which he calls the eye of wisdom.. weird mag mag

[Neeranam]

I had a car accident yesterday and the question of karma came up.

I experienced a near accident last week when a car over took me and went right into a motorcycle coming the other way - I missed the crahing tossed bike by inches.

It was suggested by a Thai friend, who was in England for 10 years, that I should go to the temple and do tamboon as it was something to do with my soul wanting out my body and the monk could do something. This is all new to me.

Anyway yesterday morning I had a head on collision with a car on a country road -entirely his fault? I'm sitting now with my leg in plaster and lucky to be alive.

Got me thinking about what my thai friend suggested.

[sabaijai]

Sawasdee

There are lots of definitions of karma on the internet, and millions more in books, but by far the most inspirational one I have read is here

What is Karma

Also the guy who wrote it has this strange lump on his forehead which he calls the eye of wisdom.. weird mag mag

I found it hard to be inspired as it was so badly written ...

[stone cold]

personally i think important events in life like death etc is predestined in life, you cant change the karma tat u bring to this world. it had been accumulated through your past life. but the gd thing u do(must be out of true benevolence and compassion, as in not thinking of the reward of ur good deed u gonna reap)will help to improve it(better luck,evasion of disaster etc) but it will be hard as i said its kinda accumulated thing. just like u have been scoring low in sch for years and then u did very well in a particular semester. it raise ur standing a bit but u wil still the bottom few.

u cant override the force of karma unless u have special zen meditation technique(yoga etc),or u are man with the greatest benevolence,or a man with the greatest evil. the two extremes will not be governed by the force of karma.

[purushanti]

Here is my distortion of a solution to this problem according to Chief Little Summer, who has a web-site at www.piquapress.com, and treats especially this question in Volume I of his "Teachings...", and also repeats the same chapter in another book, "The Monitor":

Karma can be erased by realizing that time is not linear, but spherical. One can penetrate thru layers of time, like into the peels of an onion, and locate the point at which the apparent infraction occurred. Remembering that thought is eterrnally more important than the transient deed, use the power of intention to relive the moment in question, see it happening in the positive way you would wish...... Understand yourself, accept self including one's greatness which one may not have re-membered yet, including all warts and blemishes. Forgive oneself. Understand, accept, forgive self----this is true love for self, and the microcosm of the self is one with all other apparent selves and with the macrocosm of the non-self. The Law is One.

All spiritual teaching tend over time to become religions, being more and more removed from the time of the Master, and thus the purity of the teaching is distorted. Fear is a prominent technique for organizations to control people. The main lesson for humans is to individuate, become self-aware, like unto the house cat, forgoing the ways of the organizations of fishes in the fishbowl and their group mind, and avoiding kow-towing to the dictates of what might be called human hierarchies. Your Higher Self is within; it leads and guides you always. With free will one can choose committment to service to self, or service to others.

The Chief is a transcendental soul and holds Buddhism to be the finest religion, but better as a philosophy, and best as a way of life. Most of the small percentage of humans who will be graduated from 3rd Density in the next harvest are Buddhists. He was introduced to Zen in Japan.

I have read only one or two posts on this thread, and admire the use of the thinking facility as evidenced herein. I am sure many more individual posts are worthy of a reply. Nice to know y'all are there.

[Brucenkhamen]

Just as a thread from 5 years can come back and bite you at an indeterminable time so there is no way of knowing how or when negative kamma will affect you.

What to do? You can't change the past, you can't change the future, you can only change the present. You can develop wisdom here and now so that you are not doing things here and now that you would regret later, and you'll continue to develop wisdom so that if negative things happen to you in the future you'll be ready, you'll embrace it, you'll learn from it.

[fabianfred]

I would say that we can definately change our future karma...by taking action now to understand how it works and keep the five precepts as well as possible which will help to prevent us from creating bad karma.

By doing that we virtually stop creating negative karma and by practicing the ten ways to gain merit or positive karma we shall so dilute the negative that it has little chance to have any effect.

The strongest way to make merit is by the practice of mindfulness or Vipassana.... and if practiced with effort it can take us to Nibbana in a very few lives....thus erasing all opportunity for past karma to have any effect.

If we share and dedicate the merits after each session of meditation, those beings we are in debt to, with which we have negative karma unpaid, can sometimes forgive us, and this wipes out the effect of that karma.

After singing the National Anthem and chanting praise to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, all schoolchildren in Government schools then chant the transfer and sharing of merits to all beings.

These can also be chanted under our breath whilst the monks are chanting their blessings on alms round....and share our merits with any Preta present.

[IMA_FARANG]

I do not mean to be unkind... I really don't.....but why are you worrying about the possible effects of your "karma" ?

First of all, in my humble opinion as a nobody, I don't think there is a Karma judge someplace that keeps score on a balance sheet...so many points for you...so many points against. Even if there was, what could you do about it, anyhow?

My only suggestion to you is to NOT DO those things you say you once did. Just change, and let the good "karma" start to accumulate (if such a thing really does exist). At any rate, what do you have to lose by doing good things rather than bad things? Absolutely nothing.

If you were walking down the street and had a stone in your shoe, as soon as you felt that stone, wouldn't you stop and take off your shoe to shake out the stone? In the same way, take of those metaphorical shoes, shake them out all of the stones in them, and then go on. Starting now.

And beyond that, let karma and all that take care of itself. You just take care of you. Karma will balance itself in time, it doesn't need your help. You should just take care of yourself (and the maybe, later, all sentient beings if you ever come that far). Cultivate your own garden, grow your own flowers.

When the journey is completed, the long road is forgotten.

so just complete your journey.

Metta

Edited April 19, 2010 by IMA_FARANG

[phetaroi]

I do not mean to be unkind... I really don't.....but why are you worrying about the possible effects of your "karma" ?

First of all, in my humble opinion as a nobody, I don't think there is a Karma judge someplace that keeps score on a balance sheet...so many points for you...so many points against. Even if there was, what could you do about it, anyhow?

My only suggestion to you is to NOT DO those things you say you once did. Just change, and let the good "karma" start to accumulate...

I think most people find it quite natural to worry about their future, and karma relates to the future. Even if you are busy meditating on how to not cling to your future, you're still recognizing the human tendency is there.

The whole "karma judge" concept is very interesting, and I think it is what blocks many of us from embracing karma more thoroughly. I think most of us can embrace a certain degree of karma. But there comes a point when it becomes much more difficult. For example, my son breaks one of the Eightfold Path's factors. He is arrested. He ultimately goes to jail. His wife divorces him (thank goodness...oops, did I say that?). His future employment is always clouded. Direct cause and effect. But then there's another example -- my grandfather kills a rabbit that's eating veggies in our garden.

The problem many of us have is the "mechanism" of karma.

[khaowong1]

Sawasdee

There are lots of definitions of karma on the internet, and millions more in books, but by far the most inspirational one I have read is here

What is Karma

Also the guy who wrote it has this strange lump on his forehead which he calls the eye of wisdom.. weird mag mag

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I found it hard to be inspired as it was so badly written ...

yes, I thought the same thing, definetly not a native English speaker.

[agent69]

The whole "karma judge" concept is very interesting, and I think it is what blocks many of us from embracing karma more thoroughly. I think most of us can embrace a certain degree of karma. But there comes a point when it becomes much more difficult. For example, my son breaks one of the Eightfold Path's factors. He is arrested. He ultimately goes to jail. His wife divorces him (thank goodness...oops, did I say that?). His future employment is always clouded. Direct cause and effect. But then there's another example -- my grandfather kills a rabbit that's eating veggies in our garden.

The problem many of us have is the "mechanism" of karma.

I like the karma judge concept. Who's keeping the scores of the judges themselves?

How do we erase the bad karma? Is it possible? I guess it is going to be difficult. Take the story of Angulimal, becoming an arahant did not get rid of the effect of his previous bad deeds. Some people was willing to forgive him but others would not. Even if everyone forgave him, would he forgive himself?

[fabianfred]

There is no need for a karma judge....... all our karma is recorded..... as are every action and thought in every existence we have ever had....

Some call it the Hall of Records or the Akashic Record..... a huge database where everything done by every being is kept. Some say it is a part of our subconscious. Some beings are able to access this information and describe other beings and their own past lives, and past karma.

Edgar Cayce is just one example...... and Luang Por jaran is another.

The whole system works automatically...and cannot be bribed or corrupted....or escaped from.

[sabaijai]

Here is my distortion of a solution to this problem according to Chief Little Summer, who has a web-site at www.piquapress.com, and treats especially this question in Volume I of his "Teachings...", and also repeats the same chapter in another book, "The Monitor":

Karma can be erased by realizing that time is not linear, but spherical. One can penetrate thru layers of time, like into the peels of an onion, and locate the point at which the apparent infraction occurred. Remembering that thought is eterrnally more important than the transient deed, use the power of intention to relive the moment in question, see it happening in the positive way you would wish...... Understand yourself, accept self including one's greatness which one may not have re-membered yet, including all warts and blemishes. Forgive oneself. Understand, accept, forgive self----this is true love for self, and the microcosm of the self is one with all other apparent selves and with the macrocosm of the non-self. The Law is One.

Interesting proposition by "Chief Little Summer," quite different from the Theravada Buddhist view, where there is no self to forgive.

[phetaroi]

There is no need for a karma judge....... all our karma is recorded..... as are every action and thought in every existence we have ever had....

Some call it the Hall of Records or the Akashic Record..... a huge database where everything done by every being is kept. Some say it is a part of our subconscious. Some beings are able to access this information and describe other beings and their own past lives, and past karma.

Edgar Cayce is just one example...... and Luang Por jaran is another.

The whole system works automatically...and cannot be bribed or corrupted....or escaped from.

Before I swallow something that illogical, I need a little evidence.

[rockyysdt]

Here is my distortion of a solution to this problem according to Chief Little Summer, who has a web-site at www.piquapress.com, and treats especially this question in Volume I of his "Teachings...", and also repeats the same chapter in another book, "The Monitor":

Karma can be erased by realizing that time is not linear, but spherical. One can penetrate thru layers of time, like into the peels of an onion, and locate the point at which the apparent infraction occurred. Remembering that thought is eterrnally more important than the transient deed, use the power of intention to relive the moment in question, see it happening in the positive way you would wish...... Understand yourself, accept self including one's greatness which one may not have re-membered yet, including all warts and blemishes. Forgive oneself. Understand, accept, forgive self----this is true love for self, and the microcosm of the self is one with all other apparent selves and with the macrocosm of the non-self. The Law is One.

Interesting proposition by "Chief Little Summer," quite different from the Theravada Buddhist view, where there is no self to forgive.

It is a little confusing.

It fits into the notion of a common element which survives rebirth, but conflicts with our impermanent & conditioned state (there is nothing inside).

It gives one heart that death isn't the end but conflicts with the need to extinguish or surrender ego.

Edited April 19, 2010 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

There is no need for a karma judge....... all our karma is recorded..... as are every action and thought in every existence we have ever had....

Some call it the Hall of Records or the Akashic Record..... a huge database where everything done by every being is kept. Some say it is a part of our subconscious. Some beings are able to access this information and describe other beings and their own past lives, and past karma.

Edgar Cayce is just one example...... and Luang Por jaran is another.

The whole system works automatically...and cannot be bribed or corrupted....or escaped from.

Before I swallow something that illogical, I need a little evidence.

It brings to mind the following Zen dialog.

"A samurai once asked Zen Master Hakuin where he would go after he died.

Hakuin answered 'How am I supposed to know?'

'How do you not know? You're a Zen master!' exclaimed the samurai.

'Yes, but not a dead one,' Hakuin answered."

[IMA_FARANG]

There is no need for a karma judge....... all our karma is recorded..... as are every action and thought in every existence we have ever had....

Some call it the Hall of Records or the Akashic Record..... a huge database where everything done by every being is kept. Some say it is a part of our subconscious. Some beings are able to access this information and describe other beings and their own past lives, and past karma.

Edgar Cayce is just one example...... and Luang Por jaran is another.

The whole system works automatically...and cannot be bribed or corrupted....or escaped from.

------------------------------

There is no need for a karma judge....... all our karma is recorded..... as are every action and thought in every existence we have ever had....

Some call it the Hall of Records or the Akashic Record..... a huge database where everything done by every being is kept. Some say it is a part of our subconscious.

======

I have my personal doubts about this...but you may be right. I cetainly don't have the knowledge to say yes or no to this.

However, in either case, why worry about it?

If it is true, then what was done is done and can't be undone. No effort on his/her part can change it.

If it is not true, then he/she doesn't need to try to change it anyhow.

My advice to the original poster was simply to stop whatever he/she did that was wrong, and not to do it any longer. Starting now. Further, if he/she feels it is required try to undo the bad effects of his/her actions by doing what he/she knows is the correct thing then to do that.

In either case, stopping the wrong actions, and starting the right actions is the correct answer, isn't it?

=========

The whole system works automatically...and cannot be bribed or corrupted....or escaped from.

Precisely my point. I don't see ending those wrong practices and beginning the correct practices as either bribing, corruption, or any desire to escape any Karmic fate (if there is such a thing). Why should you want to "escape" it anyhow? If it even takes you another one thousand rebirths, but at that time you are freed from the cycle of birth and rebirth (just for arguement let us assume you enter into nirvana then)....what have you lost but time?

And then at that place and time where is this thing that "you" have lost...and furthermore, what is this "you" that has supposedly lost something?

As I believe I said, when the journey is completed, the long road is forgotten. Therefore, continue your journey.

Think about it.

[phetaroi]

There is no need for a karma judge....... all our karma is recorded..... as are every action and thought in every existence we have ever had....

Some call it the Hall of Records or the Akashic Record..... a huge database where everything done by every being is kept. Some say it is a part of our subconscious.

======

I have my personal doubts about this...but you may be right. I cetainly don't have the knowledge to say yes or no to this.

However, in either case, why worry about it?

If it is true, then what was done is done and can't be undone. No effort on his/her part can change it.

If it is not true, then he/she doesn't need to try to change it anyhow.

My advice to the original poster was simply to stop whatever he/she did that was wrong, and not to do it any longer. Starting now. Further, if he/she feels it is required try to undo the bad effects of his/her actions by doing what he/she knows is the correct thing then to do that.

In either case, stopping the wrong actions, and starting the right actions is the correct answer, isn't it?

=========

The whole system works automatically...and cannot be bribed or corrupted....or escaped from.

Precisely my point. I don't see ending those wrong practices and beginning the correct practices as either bribing, corruption, or any desire to escape any Karmic fate (if there is such a thing). Why should you want to "escape" it anyhow? If it even takes you another one thousand rebirths, but at that time you are freed from the cycle of birth and rebirth (just for arguement let us assume you enter into nirvana then)....what have you lost but time?

And then at that place and time where is this thing that "you" have lost...and furthermore, what is this "you" that has supposedly lost something?

As I believe I said, when the journey is completed, the long road is forgotten. Therefore, continue your journey.

Think about it.

Another very good and thought-provoking post.

I think in the case of "why worry about it", the answer is that there is a difference between Buddhist thought and thoughts about Buddhism.

By "Buddhist thought", I mean your practice. For example, following the Eightfold Path...it's something you can do...and it's difficult to see how following any part of it would have a negative outcome.

By "thoughts about Buddhism", I mean the discussion we have in this forum. For example, talking about the validity of the Eightfold Path...did Buddha ever actually teach this or where did it come from...what does the Eightfold Path really mean...and so forth.

This is why I get frustrated with posters who say things along the lines of, "We Buddhists believe..." That's a statement about Buddhism and I think many statements about Buddhism are opinions...hence, for example, the different schools of Buddhist thought.

This may seem like semantics, but actually I think it's a key point to understand if one is to move ahead and not become attached to some thought about Buddhism.

On another topic...sort of...for some reason when I woke up this morning I found myself thinking of karma and I had an alarming thought...what is time in the Buddhist sense is totally non-linear? Just as our karma can move forward into another existence, could it backwards into a previous existence...or even backwards in this existence so that I am currently suffering the karmic result of something I will do next year? :D