Them And Us

[Ulysses G.]

A case in point.

The company I work for (about 50 Thai and 6 westeners full-time staff) are going on their yearly all expences paid "staff away trip" very soon.

None , repeat none of the westeners were invited.

I wonder if it is because they think that we are too demanding?

I went on a similar kind of trip and soon discovered that both men and women had to share rooms and often the same bed . They had told me that we would all have our own rooms, but it was not like that.

In one place at the beach they had huge beds where 4 men had to all sleep together. They also had compulsory shows where you had to sing songs in front of everyone (I can't sing) and do silly skits. I was most unhappy with the whole thing and I'm sure that they picked up on it. I probably am solely responsible for farangs all over the country never being invited to such events again.

[thaimite]

I probably am solely responsible for farangs all over the country never being invited to such events again.

So it was you!!!! Thanks:D

[Chunky1]

they are losers who only exist in Thailand because the country is destitute and there are so many poor and desperate women. they hate everything about their lives. they use thai visa as a way to vent all of this.

the best thing to do is to continue making fun of them.

[GM1955]

A case in point.

The company I work for (about 50 Thai and 6 westeners full-time staff) are going on their yearly all expences paid "staff away trip" very soon.

None , repeat none of the westeners were invited. Weren't invited and even if any or all of the 6 westeners wanted to go, guess what? Fully booked! W.T.F.

Maybe they have read your posts on ThaiVisa, you really do seem very unhappy here, I wouldn't invite you either.

[robblok]

A case in point.

The company I work for (about 50 Thai and 6 westeners full-time staff) are going on their yearly all expences paid "staff away trip" very soon.

None , repeat none of the westeners were invited.

I wonder if it is because they think that we are too demanding?

I went on a similar kind of trip and soon discovered that both men and women had to share rooms and often the same bed . They had told me that we would all have our own rooms, but it was not like that.

In one place at the beach they had huge beds where 4 men had to all sleep together. They also had compulsory shows where you had to sing songs in front of everyone (I can't sing) and do silly skits. I was most unhappy with the whole thing and I'm sure that they picked up on it. I probably am solely responsible for farangs all over the country never being invited to such events again.

It could be because Thais do seem to put up with things Westerners would not put up with. To be honest i would not want to go on trips like that with Thais. My wife is a guide and does many of these so called trips with clients, Thais like them. I don't and many Westerners also don't because we are more individualistic than them. Its quite possible that the Thais do understand we don't like stuff like that.

[Valdezugar]

I think there's a lot that Thais put up with that we farang (falang; flang) won't.

And I agree I to am not keen on trips with working groups of Thais. But that's because I like doing things alone or with just my GF. As farang I don't get invited because it seems they would spare me because they know I don't like it.

[bonobo]

I'll also add...

Many falang do know how to fix a situation or a problem a Thai may have. Most of us do have some sort of a real education and are able to problem solve on a basic level, if not some on a very advanced level. If we see wrong and can fix it, we want to. That is how our minds work. Most of us thrive on bettering ourselves and our surroundings, and to be in a nation where no one really cares about anything, can be very trying on your nerves. I believe falang just want to help make Thailand a better, safer place. Not too much to ask IMHO. Sadly, there is usually something standing in the way and it's usually a lack of education or that stubborn Thai face.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Doesn't matter, nothing is going to change when you have the majority of the population dropping out of school in the 8th grade.

I don't think it is as bad as the OP states, but the condescending nature of your post does sort of support his contention.  

According to UNESCO, 45% of Thais attend at least some tertiary education, and 87% of students transition from grade 6 to 7, so your "majority of the population dropping out of school in the 8th grade" seems rather far-fetched.

[MJP]

I'll also add...

Many falang do know how to fix a situation or a problem a Thai may have. Most of us do have some sort of a real education and are able to problem solve on a basic level, if not some on a very advanced level. If we see wrong and can fix it, we want to. That is how our minds work. Most of us thrive on bettering ourselves and our surroundings, and to be in a nation where no one really cares about anything, can be very trying on your nerves. I believe falang just want to help make Thailand a better, safer place. Not too much to ask IMHO. Sadly, there is usually something standing in the way and it's usually a lack of education or that stubborn Thai face.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Doesn't matter, nothing is going to change when you have the majority of the population dropping out of school in the 8th grade.

Genuine expats, and yes it can try your nerves at times.

I have noticed an incredibly positive change in attitude up here in Issan over the past 9 years with resulting development and improved standards of living. Also a drop in the birth rate and more interest in their childrens education. Also less alcoholism, greater safety awareness, improved environmental management (much less litter) and less domestic violence. 

When we moan about 'Thai's', I think we're actually moaning about the particular (but prolific) sub-culture of Issan Lao people. Things are improving.

That said, I do feel the xenophobia up here, but that's common to all countries when you're a different colour/race etc. 

[surayu]

I believe falang just want to help make Thailand a better, safer place.

This is such a load of crock that I can't believe you wrote this. Farangs (on TV anyways), by and large, do not want to make Thailand a better place. What farangs want is to have things better for farangs, which may not necessarily be the same as making Thailand a better place. It is so incredibly disingenuous of some expats to come on these forums and spew their vile hatred of the Thai's and Thailand and call that "helping" or "constructive criticism." It is neither. It is just pointless and pathetic whining. You're not helping anybody. And if I was a Thai person with any sort of authority, I wouldn't lift a finger to help you because you don't deserve it. If anything, I'd try to make your life more miserable so you'd leave. Maybe that's why all these things that farangs complain about most (e.g., visa rules, dual-pricing, foreign land ownership, etc.) have not changed after all these years. The Thai's probably believe--rightfully so--that if they made things too pleasant for farangs in Thailand, more would come and there would be even more whining. Can't blame them one bit.

Berkshire, there is actually much more people that you might believe honestly trying to improve things for both sides, just because you would act in the opposite direction that doesn't mean that everybody is like you, you either are someone which just come in this country for a few days of holidays and doesn't have a clue on how it is life here apart from holidaying around those fews days/weeks or just are a so negative kind of person as your words suggests, shame on you and all those like you!

[surayu]

Agree 100%. I didn't notice that little gem earlier. Virtually all the Westerners that I have met here just want an easy life for themselves and couldn't give two hoots about improving the country for the general population. Also, I wonder what makes many of them think that they have the first clue about running a country in any case. A lot of them would be hard pressed to run a bath

And...what makes them turn into committed social activists the minute they get over here? I've know a few people like that but they did precious little about the social injustices in their own country when they lived there.

That's because you like those kind of people/thinking so you might just like to hang around them.....

[MJP]

I believe falang just want to help make Thailand a better, safer place.

This is such a load of crock that I can't believe you wrote this.  Farangs (on TV anyways), by and large, do not want to make Thailand a better place.  What farangs want is to have things better for farangs, which may not necessarily be the same as making Thailand a better place.  It is so incredibly disingenuous of some expats to come on these forums and spew their vile hatred of the Thai's and Thailand and call that "helping" or "constructive criticism."  It is neither.  It is just pointless and pathetic whining.  You're not helping anybody.  And if I was a Thai person with any sort of authority, I wouldn't lift a finger to help you because you don't deserve it.  If anything, I'd try to make your life more miserable so you'd leave.  Maybe that's why all these things that farangs complain about most (e.g., visa rules, dual-pricing, foreign land ownership, etc.) have not changed after all these years.  The Thai's probably believe--rightfully so--that if they made things too pleasant for farangs in Thailand, more would come and there would be even more whining.  Can't blame them one bit.

Berkshire, there is actually much more people that you might believe honestly trying to improve things for both sides, just because you would act in the opposite direction that doesn't mean that everybody is like you, you either are someone which just come in this country for a few days of holidays and doesn't have a clue on how it is life here apart from holidaying around those fews days/weeks or just are a so negative kind of person as your words suggests, shame on you and all those like you!

I agree with you. Those long term expats especially those involved with Thai's get an understanding of the place eventually, the difficulties of life here and genuinely do try and help. Many give up, often with good reason, but I've found most do try.

[ozzieovaseas]

I don't believe that the "censorship" is the right answer , back home we are having the government trying to take off the freedom of speech from the people, we got strikes going on everyday and not just from the press, i can't believe that despite a western education we are still having people wanting to take off from other people what should be recognized everywhere as a basic human right.....

It is greed brother, Pure unadulterated GREED..

Generation Y's problems have only snowballed because we instilled "political correctness" in them,

And we only did so only to appease our own guilt/greed for the want of more money.

Money that we are obligated to bleed FROM OUR OWN KIDS

Rents are sky high, and the dream of any Gen Y's owning their own homes are all but fairy tales

In EVERY country in the world the rich become richer and poor become poorer

And now...governments all around the world are ENCOURAGING its citizens to multiply...

But Why?...for more taxpayers of course, and hence the acquisition of more of that ever so precious paper to boost our failing economical systems,

Never mind the environment getting in the way of our making the big bucks...

Its all "curtains" in 2012 anyway isnt it?...

Lets hope so, otherwise we need to take a good HARD look at ourselves

[harrypatterson]

People are free to complain of course, but it seems to me that some of the people who complain most about Thais have never really tried to understand the culture and customs here. They sometimes I think unintentionally offend the Thais, who in turn are not overly friendly to the farang, and it becomes a cycle where the farang thinks all Thais hate him and Thais think farang is rude and arrogant. I used to be this way myself but after reading some books about Thai culture and spending some time with the local people my outlook towards the Thais and their attitude towards me has improved greatly.

[Berkshire]

Surayu, you can attack me all you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. Are you one of those naïve (or delusional) folks that believe that complaining and denigrating Thai's and Thailand on ThaiVisa is constructive? The condescending tone of the Tokay's and Barky's just on this thread alone are representative of the racist elements prevalent in TV and I can assure you, are not at all productive in improving Thai/farang relations in Thailand. We should be relieved that not very many Thai's view this forum, but the ones that do would probably come away with a deep hatred of farangs.

[zzaa09]

Pretty much everyone who has lived here for a few years has horror stories to tell.

But then again, around 50% of people decide to stay here anyway, they prefer it for many different reasons, to their own country and find their own way to deal with the problems.

The other 50% decide they can't deal with the 'problems', and decide their home country isn't so bad after all.

....and than there are the very few oddballs and enigmatic types that have never sought out nor have have such desire to seek out the company/circles of 'their own kind' and the whole environment that is expected. Even going to the extremes as finding them to be them {defined as other Farang}. Quite comfortable and connected without the convention of comparatives or superlatives. And even more peaceful with the thought of not having to 'fit in'....

[Ulysses G.]

....and than there are the very few oddballs and enigmatic types that have never sought out nor have have such desire to seek out the company/circles of 'their own kind' and the whole environment that is expected.

I enjoy being with foreigners who enjoy being in Thailand, but I have to admit that the farangs who worship everything Thai and do not hang out with other Westerners are often a strange breed.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[robblok]

Surayu, you can attack me all you want, but it's not going to change my opinion. Are you one of those naïve (or delusional) folks that believe that complaining and denigrating Thai's and Thailand on ThaiVisa is constructive? The condescending tone of the Tokay's and Barky's just on this thread alone are representative of the racist elements prevalent in TV and I can assure you, are not at all productive in improving Thai/farang relations in Thailand. We should be relieved that not very many Thai's view this forum, but the ones that do would probably come away with a deep hatred of farangs.

Let the Thai fix their racism and ill fix the racism on this board. I know full well i could never fix the racism here either but i will never have to as the Thais are real racist too. Racism is something that is human nature. But in general expats are much better educated then the average Thai. I don't understand that people even deny that fact. I do have to agree that some remarks are well over the top. But racism wise the Thais still win, just look at racism in your home country and racism here. (dual pricing, foreigners cant own land, its hard to get residency here).

[robblok]

....and than there are the very few oddballs and enigmatic types that have never sought out nor have have such desire to seek out the company/circles of 'their own kind' and the whole environment that is expected.

I enjoy being with foreigners who enjoy being in Thailand, but I have to admit that the farangs who worship everything Thai and do not hang out with other Westerners are often a strange breed.

I love being in Thailand but i will complain too as there is enough to complain about. But i am a lot happier here then in my home country.

[zzaa09]

....and than there are the very few oddballs and enigmatic types that have never sought out nor have have such desire to seek out the company/circles of 'their own kind' and the whole environment that is expected.

I enjoy being with foreigners who enjoy being in Thailand, but I have to admit that the farangs who worship everything Thai and do not hang out with other Westerners are often a strange breed.

So....you automatically equate one whom 'rejects' Westerners qualifies as a passionate Thaiophile? Interesting, indeed.

[robblok]

....and than there are the very few oddballs and enigmatic types that have never sought out nor have have such desire to seek out the company/circles of 'their own kind' and the whole environment that is expected.

I enjoy being with foreigners who enjoy being in Thailand, but I have to admit that the farangs who worship everything Thai and do not hang out with other Westerners are often a strange breed.

So....you automatically equate one whom 'rejects' Westerners qualifies as a passionate Thaiophile? Interesting, indeed.

Either that or they are hermits Stands to reason that if they dont socialize with other farang and only with Thais out of choice they are a Thaiophile. If they don't socialize at all then hermit would be a good term

[zzaa09]

....and than there are the very few oddballs and enigmatic types that have never sought out nor have have such desire to seek out the company/circles of 'their own kind' and the whole environment that is expected.

I enjoy being with foreigners who enjoy being in Thailand, but I have to admit that the farangs who worship everything Thai and do not hang out with other Westerners are often a strange breed.

So....you automatically equate one whom 'rejects' Westerners qualifies as a passionate Thaiophile? Interesting, indeed.

Either that or they are hermits Stands to reason that if they dont socialize with other farang and only with Thais out of choice they are a Thaiophile. If they don't socialize at all then hermit would be a good term

Naturally, the highest standard for quality socialization derives from the desire to be with 'fellow' Farang. Just suppose {for hypothetically scientific purposes, of course}, mind, that the Occidental character isn't as exceptional or extraordinary as it's been purported to be through popular conclusions? Hermits might stand out.

[robblok]

Naturally, the highest standard for quality socialization derives from the desire to be with 'fellow' Farang. Just suppose {for hypothetically scientific purposes, of course}, mind, that the Occidental character isn't as exceptional or extraordinary as it's been purported to be through popular conclusions? Hermits might stand out.

I just think that there are not many farang fluid in Thai so they can hold quality conversations. I know that i sometimes like talking with someone who can really understand me. I am lucky that my wife her english is good enough to have good conversations. However my Thai is not that good, i can manage but to discuss deep topics would be hard. I just assume that this is the case with many others.

I might be wrong about the urge to have intelligent conversation, but most people (with a brain) do have that urge. If Thais would all be fluid in English then i could understand it more if people hung out with them. (or if the farang was fluid in Thai). I select my friends on what do do and how they act BUT its a big pre if i can really understand them and have good conversation. That is why MOST but not all of my friends are farang.

[harrypatterson]

I agree with what robblok says. It is mostly a matter of communication. I have Thai friends and farang friends. With Thais I laugh and joke and usually eat, as these are the things Thais spend most of their time doing. However, if I wish to discuss politics or science, I will visit with farang friends. They are just seoarate types of relationships and situations. The fact is, I know more about the history of Thailand than any Thai person i know. This does not make me a scholar. it is just that I read books and the Thai people I know do not. This does not make them stupid or ignorant, but the fact is most Thais I know are not well educated by western standards. Unfortunately, most of the young western people I meet these days are also not very well educated by western standards. Also,most Thai friends of mine are mostly not really young people, , so hopefully this situation will change in the future. However, these same Thai people are much better educated than I in many ways. This may be off the topic, but it seems that if many farang have their way, the culture of Thailand will cease to exist, and the place will just be a low-rent version of london or New York. People will get all worked up about endangered creatures like frogs and spiders and all kinds of vermin, yet think nothing about destroying an entire culture. I know people who are all excited that there will be new McDonald's and Starbucks at Meechok Plaza. I just do not comprehend this. I am not anti-farang. I love my own culture and my country. This does not mean I cannot enjoy or appreciate another people and way of life.

[CPH]

Its the way expat life is. At first when you come to a new country you think it is fantastic and brag about the new country to all your friends back home and tell them it is much better than the old country and the old country has so many wrong and bad things. After some time it changes and you tend to complain a lot about people and things in the new country and you tend to think they could do it a lot better in the old country. It is only a part of the proces of settling in a new country. Every country have their specific problems, it is nothing special for Thailand.

[bkkjames]

Met a girl called Lola and I took her back to my place

Feelin' guilty, feelin' scared, hidden cameras everywhere

Stop! Hold on. Stay in control

Girl, I want you here with me

But I'm really not as cool as I'd like to be

'Cause there's a red, under my bed

And there's a little yellow man in my head

And there's a true blue inside of me

That keeps stoppin' me, touchin' ya, watchin' ya, lovin' ya

Paranoia, the destroyer.

Paranoia, the destroyer.

Well I fell asleep, then I woke feelin' kinda' queer

Lola looked at me and said, "ooh you look so weird."

She said, "man, there's really something wrong with you.

One day you're gonna' self-destruct.

You're up, you're down, I can't work you out

You get a good thing goin' then you blow yourself out."

Silly boy ya' self-destroyer. Silly boy ya' self-destroyer

Silly boy you got so much to live for

So much to aim for, so much to try for

You blowing it all with paranoia

You're so insecure you self-destroyer

(And it goes like this, here it goes)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(Here it goes again)

Paranoia, the destroyer

Doctor, Doctor help me please, I know you'll understand

There's a time device inside of me, I'm a self-destructin' man

There's a red, under my bed

And there's a little green man in my head

And he said, "you're not goin' crazy, you're just a bit sad

'Cause there's a man in ya, gnawin' ya, tearin' ya into two."

Silly boy ya' self-destroyer.

Paranoia, the destroyer

Self-destroyer, wreck your health

Destroy friends, destroy yourself

The time device of self-destruction

Light the fuse and start eruption

(Yea, it goes like this, here it goes)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(Here's to paranoia)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(Hey hey, here it goes)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(And it goes like this)

Paranoia, the destroyer

(And it goes like this.)

[mauGR1]

Thanks Harry for the well balanced post, very well put.

It's a fact btw that older people find more difficult to adapt to other ways of life, they are the majority of the whingers.

Young people, often carrying a feeling of rebellion against their own country lifestyle, are more likely to adapt and can easily learn the language too.

We Foreigners should be patient, help if we can, and just be positive if we can't.

We are guests, wanted or not it depends on the individual.

Personally i have not much sympathy for the foreigners who live in Thailand and despise it.

[Berkshire]

This may be off the topic, but it seems that if many farang have their way, the culture of Thailand will cease to exist, and the place will just be a low-rent version of london or New York.

This is a good point. Many farangs seem to want Thailand to change to suit them, to modernize, be more westernized, accept the western way of thinking, etc.....the caveat being that it stays cheap because most are on a limited income. You can't have it both ways. I often tell my most vocal farang Thailand critics that there's already a "Thai utopia" out there that would fit their description of a modern Thailand. It's called Japan. But of course, most of these guys couldn't afford to live there.

[Berkshire]

Thanks Harry for the well balanced post, very well put.

It's a fact btw that older people find more difficult to adapt to other ways of life, they are the majority of the whingers.

Young people, often carrying a feeling of rebellion against their own country lifestyle, are more likely to adapt and can easily learn the language too.

We Foreigners should be patient, help if we can, and just be positive if we can't.

We are guests, wanted or not it depends on the individual.

Personally i have not much sympathy for the foreigners who live in Thailand and despise it.

Good attitude.

[inthepink]

Agree 100%. I didn't notice that little gem earlier. Virtually all the Westerners that I have met here just want an easy life for themselves and couldn't give two hoots about improving the country for the general population. Also, I wonder what makes many of them think that they have the first clue about running a country in any case. A lot of them would be hard pressed to run a bath

And...what makes them turn into committed social activists the minute they get over here? I've know a few people like that but they did precious little about the social injustices in their own country when they lived there.

That's because you like those kind of people/thinking so you might just like to hang around them.....

Sorry but that's complete rubbish. I hang around with very few Westerners over here and those that I do have a positive attitude to the country they have chosen to live in. However, they don't have a patronising attitude and believe that they have all the answers to any problems that some expats perceive Thailand to be suffering from.

They are much the same as people living in countries all over the world. They do the best they can, help their friends and look after their families.

I believe that people should direct their attention inwards and get their own house in order before they start on other people's problems. Otherwise it is often little more than an attempt to divert themselves from the issues in their own life that they are unhappy with.

Edited July 23, 2010 by inthepink

[surayu]

I personally find funny the way some people got that need to show everything they have been into is perfect even if it is not, like for example those couples that went in holidays, had a nightmare after another and yet when they come back to tell about their experiences to their "friends" back home, they hide everything and just say it was all perfect and beautifull.....why is that? and if you don't complaints or do something to change what is clearly wrong and affecting not just the victims but even the perpetrator in the end, why do you prefer to just shut up, do nothing or even reward them(!) ? why are some people always waiting for the changes to happen by theirself like magic? there is no Harry Potter here!.......however you will be able to see millions of Hello Kitty around