Upgrade Tor Bor Ha To Nor Sor Sam/Chanote

[taninthai]

hi

most of the land in the area we are looking at only has tor bor ha title anyone know how easy or difficult it is for a thai national to purchase and upgrade the title to nor sor sam

costs time scale etc i have read that this type of land cannot really be lease ed or sold so would it be better to upgrade the titile while it is still in possesion off existing owners and then buy from them anyone have experience of this any advise appreciated.

the land size is 1 rai

Edited July 23, 2010 by taninthai

[yabaaaa]

Keep walking!! dont buy it,every Thai I met selling land like this said it was "coming soon", the answer is "sometime" could be never could be tomorrow and chances are "if" they can upgrade the price will not be what it is now when you want to buy it which is why nor sor sam and upwards cost more.

So it cant be sold and their selling it????? doesnt that worry you a little?

Ive spent 18 months looking for the right piece of land in the right place/price it isnt easy and you do need to look HARD, unless this is something your wife is pushing for???

Just when you think you have the right plot they'll pull the rug from under you and may up the price.

I got there in the end and the result................... 10 rai of pineapples.......well thats breakfast sorted everyday!

[wimpy]

My understanding is that it can be easily sold. You just can't borrow money against it.

[taninthai]

Keep walking!! dont buy it,every Thai I met selling land like this said it was "coming soon", the answer is "sometime" could be never could be tomorrow and chances are "if" they can upgrade the price will not be what it is now when you want to buy it which is why nor sor sam and upwards cost more.

So it cant be sold and their selling it????? doesnt that worry you a little?

Ive spent 18 months looking for the right piece of land in the right place/price it isnt easy and you do need to look HARD, unless this is something your wife is pushing for???

Just when you think you have the right plot they'll pull the rug from under you and may up the price.

I got there in the end and the result................... 10 rai of pineapples.......well thats breakfast sorted everyday!

thanks for reply yabaa

the seller is not claiming any upgrade is coming its being sold with tor bor ha end off ,from what i have read this just means they have been paying taxes on the land to use for farming or whatever so no sale or lease can be registered at the land office.

i believe the land needs to be properly surveyed and plotted agaisnt national grid by land department to get title upgraded this involves many goverment departments many years ago most land only had these titles the land department is working on plotting out the whole of thailand this obviously will take decades,so many people must have got upgraded to nor sam sor or chanote just at what cost and timescale.

today a thai friend off ours said he knew someone who payed 2 million bht for this it seems to me the goverments can charge what they like for this so un less you have a friend in the right position you are on to a loser .

would just be interested to hear from anyone who has gone through the process.

as you said yabba it takes time to find the right plot i shall keep looking , looks like you found yourself a nice plot some one told me one tree only yields 1 pineapple how many pineapples do you reckon you have

.

[taninthai]

My understanding is that it can be easily sold. You just can't borrow money against it.

heard it can be sold just not registered at land office does not make sense to me how do you prove you own it if its not registered also i understand ownership papers are only issued to land with chanote title its all so confusing:

Edited July 23, 2010 by taninthai

[yabaaaa]

Keep walking!! dont buy it,every Thai I met selling land like this said it was "coming soon", the answer is "sometime" could be never could be tomorrow and chances are "if" they can upgrade the price will not be what it is now when you want to buy it which is why nor sor sam and upwards cost more.

So it cant be sold and their selling it????? doesnt that worry you a little?

Ive spent 18 months looking for the right piece of land in the right place/price it isnt easy and you do need to look HARD, unless this is something your wife is pushing for???

Just when you think you have the right plot they'll pull the rug from under you and may up the price.

I got there in the end and the result................... 10 rai of pineapples.......well thats breakfast sorted everyday!

thanks for reply yabaa

the seller is not claiming any upgrade is coming its being sold with tor bor ha end off ,from what i have read this just means they have been paying taxes on the land to use for farming or whatever so no sale or lease can be registered at the land office.

i believe the land needs to be properly surveyed and plotted agaisnt national grid by land department to get title upgraded this involves many goverment departments many years ago most land only had these titles the land department is working on plotting out the whole of thailand this obviously will take decades,so many people must have got upgraded to nor sam sor or chanote just at what cost and timescale.

today a thai friend off ours said he knew someone who payed 2 million bht for this it seems to me the goverments can charge what they like for this so un less you have a friend in the right position you are on to a loser .

would just be interested to hear from anyone who has gone through the process.

as you said yabba it takes time to find the right plot i shall keep looking , looks like you found yourself a nice plot some one told me one tree only yields 1 pineapple how many pineapples do you reckon you have

.

More than one 1!!!

Big money and BIG contacts can get it done I hear but then is it worth it??

I still dont see what your'e buying if there's no paperwork, if someone else comes along surely they can claim it as theirs.

A good list of titles here http://www.thailandlawonline.com/land_title_deeds.html

Por. Bor. Tor. 5 (P.B.T. 5), is an evidence showing that the occupier of a plot of land has been issued a tax number and has paid tax for using the benefit of the land. This confers no right at all but was formerly used to establish that the holder was occupying a plot of land and could apply for a Sor Kor 1.

Sor Kor 1 (S.K. 1), is a notification form of possession of land. This document entitles the holder to occupy and utilize the S.K. 1 land, SK. 1 land may be sold or transferred to the other if the holder abandons the intention to possess the land and delivers S.K. 1 land to the transferee, it also may be passed on by inheritance. Depending on the land’s location, this document may be upgraded to Nor. Sor. 3, Nor. Sor. 3 Gor or Nor. Sor. 4 (Chanote). Sor. Kor. 1 has never been issued since 1972. Investment with the purpose of upgrading is of course only interesting for Thai nationals, as foreigners can't own land and partly foreign owned companies will be subject to investigation into the company and its Thai shareholders.

Edited July 23, 2010 by yabaaaa

[wimpy]

There is some sort of registration. The information I got was in Thai, and a little hard to understand. Something about having to post a public notice for 30 days to give adjacent land holders the opportunity to contest the sale or boundaries. They also told me that I wouldn't be allowed to bring in any large equipment for road building, construction, etc. I'm sure someone on here can give you more exact information.

[wimpy]

I think the land I was looking at was Sor Kor 1, which can be sold. If you are looking at Por Bor Tor 5, I don't think it can be sold.

[taninthai]

I think the land I was looking at was Sor Kor 1, which can be sold. If you are looking at Por Bor Tor 5, I don't think it can be sold.

that seems right just found this seems you can upgrade but as thought big money big contacts

i will only be buying and looking at land with nor sor sam or chanote from now on:rolleyes:

On 19 December 2006, the Cabinet approved a draft Act Amending the Land Code (cancellation of certificate of possession) setting out the criteria, procedures and conditions regarding the upgrade of land held under a certificate of possession (Sor. Kor. 1) to either a land title deed (Chanote) or a land utilization deed (Nor. Sor. 3 Gor.).

Full Update

There are various levels of land title in Thailand enjoying different levels of security. The ultimate certification of land ownership is shown by a Chanote title which equates to a freehold title. The Nor. Sor. 3 Gor. title is often treated as virtual freehold and can be upgraded to a Chanote title after successful application to the Land Department. The Nor. Sor. 3 Gor. is a documented right of use, forever, and can be bought and sold; and the boundaries of such land are well defined. However, it is not a certificate of ownership; only a Chanote specifies actual ownership. Sor. Kor. 1, a certificate of possession, only recognizes possession and does not imply ownership rights with such possession, such as leasing or selling the land. A Sor. Kor. 1 is required for upgrading and issuance of a Nor. Sor. 3 Gor. and is most common in the rural areas.

Current Rules And Procedures

Currently, due to an incomplete and cumbersome process for upgrading land title documents, problems regarding the upgrade of Sor. Kor. 1 are on the daily agenda of the Land Department. As a result this may lead to the illegality or invalidity of the issuance of land title deeds or land utilization deeds.

Draft Act Amending The Land Code

The draft Act provides:

1. If the holder of a Sor. Kor. 1 applies for an upgrade within 180 days of the commencement of the draft amendment, prior to the issuance of a land title deed or a land utilization deed, the Land Office shall inspect or verify the land with an aerial photograph, scale map or any process imposed by the Director General of the Land Office, as to whether the land is available for such upgrade;

2. However, if the holder of the Sor. Kor. 1 applies for the upgrade beyond the period of 180 days after commencement of the draft amendment, the holder must request a Court order granting the upgrade. The Court is also required to (i) inform the Land Office of the Court's final order or judgment stating that the holder legitimately occupies and utilises the land; and (ii) request the Land Office to inspect or verify the land with an aerial photograph or scale map, including preparing any comments for the court's consideration.

The draft Act is at a very early stage and may be altered before being finalised. However, implementing criteria, conditions and procedures will increase the effectiveness and fairness regarding the upgrade of certificates of possession. Ultimately, this will protect the interests and benefits of both officials and potential buyers.

Author: Sittiporn Roytrakul

Edited July 23, 2010 by taninthai

[antony77]

impossible. You can not upgrade it to nor sor sam or chanote.

[taninthai]

impossible. You can not upgrade it to nor sor sam or chanote.

what makes you say that this whole area i look at is 10 k from a tourist hotspot and is in line for some real development in the coming years as it links 2 coastlines/beaches together one developed one not so at some stage the land is going to be bought and developed we are talking about a road about 7 km long and most off the land both sides off the road does not have chanote or nor sor sam..

Edited July 23, 2010 by taninthai

[yabaaaa]

I think the land I was looking at was Sor Kor 1, which can be sold. If you are looking at Por Bor Tor 5, I don't think it can be sold.

that seems right just found this seems you can upgrade but as thought big money big contacts

i will only be buying and looking at land with nor sor sam or chanote from now on:rolleyes:

On 19 December 2006, the Cabinet approved a draft Act Amending the Land Code (cancellation of certificate of possession) setting out the criteria, procedures and conditions regarding the upgrade of land held under a certificate of possession (Sor. Kor. 1) to either a land title deed (Chanote) or a land utilization deed (Nor. Sor. 3 Gor.).

Full Update

There are various levels of land title in Thailand enjoying different levels of security. The ultimate certification of land ownership is shown by a Chanote title which equates to a freehold title. The Nor. Sor. 3 Gor. title is often treated as virtual freehold and can be upgraded to a Chanote title after successful application to the Land Department. The Nor. Sor. 3 Gor. is a documented right of use, forever, and can be bought and sold; and the boundaries of such land are well defined. However, it is not a certificate of ownership; only a Chanote specifies actual ownership. Sor. Kor. 1, a certificate of possession, only recognizes possession and does not imply ownership rights with such possession, such as leasing or selling the land. A Sor. Kor. 1 is required for upgrading and issuance of a Nor. Sor. 3 Gor. and is most common in the rural areas.

Current Rules And Procedures

Currently, due to an incomplete and cumbersome process for upgrading land title documents, problems regarding the upgrade of Sor. Kor. 1 are on the daily agenda of the Land Department. As a result this may lead to the illegality or invalidity of the issuance of land title deeds or land utilization deeds.

Draft Act Amending The Land Code

The draft Act provides:

1. If the holder of a Sor. Kor. 1 applies for an upgrade within 180 days of the commencement of the draft amendment, prior to the issuance of a land title deed or a land utilization deed, the Land Office shall inspect or verify the land with an aerial photograph, scale map or any process imposed by the Director General of the Land Office, as to whether the land is available for such upgrade;

2. However, if the holder of the Sor. Kor. 1 applies for the upgrade beyond the period of 180 days after commencement of the draft amendment, the holder must request a Court order granting the upgrade. The Court is also required to (i) inform the Land Office of the Court's final order or judgment stating that the holder legitimately occupies and utilises the land; and (ii) request the Land Office to inspect or verify the land with an aerial photograph or scale map, including preparing any comments for the court's consideration.

The draft Act is at a very early stage and may be altered before being finalised. However, implementing criteria, conditions and procedures will increase the effectiveness and fairness regarding the upgrade of certificates of possession. Ultimately, this will protect the interests and benefits of both officials and potential buyers.

Author: Sittiporn Roytrakul

Nor Sor Sam Gor is good as you can do anything on it without notification , with Nor sor Sam you have to post notice of intent, I think for 30 days.

If you upgrade from nor sor sam (not gor) to Chanote you can actually lose land, I think up to 20% is not uncommon.

Nor Sor Sam Gor or Chanote is best both have been measured reasonably accuratley.

Edited July 23, 2010 by yabaaaa