Pattaya Underage Boy Bar Raided In Organised Sting Operation

[Jingthing]

You could have said, ____________ Underage Boy Bar Raided and everyone would fill in Pattaya. What a shame this city can't get it's act together.

It's no secret, both the boy bars and the girl bars are full of underage workers. 15, 16, 17 years old, they are everywhere. Cops know it, owners know it, many of the customers know it. Only when someone forgets their tea money do they get raided.

They need to once and for all clean up the kid stuff. There is just no reason to allow it.

Let's face it. There is a big cultural difference. Thais in general are much less bent out of shape over the underage trade (especially when a little bit under like 17); reports are the vast majority of this activity nationally is Thai/Thai. They know that foreign standards are different and they need to make a show about enforcement when foreigners are involved. Though, ultimately they clearly aren't serious enough to actually wipe this out.

There is also an understandable xenophobia in this phenom -- it really is very outrageous for foreigners to come to any country to prey on children for sex (though like I implied, I don't really believe most Thais think a 17 year old is a child).

Edited July 25, 2010 by Jingthing

[tonywebster]

You could have said, ____________ Underage Boy Bar Raided and everyone would fill in Pattaya. What a shame this city can't get it's act together.

It's no secret, both the boy bars and the girl bars are full of underage workers. 15, 16, 17 years old, they are everywhere. Cops know it, owners know it, many of the customers know it. Only when someone forgets their tea money do they get raided.

They need to once and for all clean up the kid stuff. There is just no reason to allow it.

Let's face it. There is a big cultural difference. Thais in general are much less bent out of shape over the underage trade (especially when a little bit under like 17); reports are the vast majority of this activity nationally is Thai/Thai. They know that foreign standards are different and they need to make a show about enforcement when foreigners are involved. Though, ultimately they clearly aren't serious enough to actually wipe this out.

There is also an understandable xenophobia in this phenom -- it really is very outrageous for foreigners to come to any country to prey on children for sex (though like I implied, I don't really believe most Thais think a 17 year old is a child).

Are you trying to condone the crime based on nationality?

[metisdead]

You could have said, ____________ Underage Boy Bar Raided and everyone would fill in Pattaya. What a shame this city can't get it's act together.

It's no secret, both the boy bars and the girl bars are full of underage workers. 15, 16, 17 years old, they are everywhere. Cops know it, owners know it, many of the customers know it. Only when someone forgets their tea money do they get raided.

They need to once and for all clean up the kid stuff. There is just no reason to allow it.

Let's face it. There is a big cultural difference. Thais in general are much less bent out of shape over the underage trade (especially when a little bit under like 17); reports are the vast majority of this activity nationally is Thai/Thai. They know that foreign standards are different and they need to make a show about enforcement when foreigners are involved. Though, ultimately they clearly aren't serious enough to actually wipe this out.

There is also an understandable xenophobia in this phenom -- it really is very outrageous for foreigners to come to any country to prey on children for sex (though like I implied, I don't really believe most Thais think a 17 year old is a child).

Are you trying to condone the crime based on nationality?

Seems odd to me!

[Jingthing]

Seems odd to me!

Odd, or not, we are in Thailand, and it is the Thais who ultimately determine what does, or does not happen here. Foreigners can scream bloody murder until the cows come home, but Thailand is for the Thais, it is their show, and until they decide to clean up the corruption, or change their culture, there won't really be much change.

[neverdie]

[webfact]

warning: if name calling and harassment between members doesn't stop

I have means to stop it my way.

Was my warning clear enough?

Thx

/several posts deleted

[Jingthing]

Are you trying to condone the crime based on nationality?

No. Absolutely not. I said or implied nothing of the kind, but I hope this question is cleared up, once and for all. What I did do was point out that Thai cultural expectations are different than western ones. That seems to be a fact of life.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Jingthing

[THAILIBAN]

I think it's a pretty clear case of 'police entrapment'.

To me, it seems wrong for individuals to pay officials so that the individuals can break the law...and then the law arrests individuals.

Clearly, this contradiction brings the law into disrepute & therefore cannot be trusted by the public to act honourably.

In other words, with all the 'pay offs' that happen (publicly) in Thailand, how can anyone trust law enforcement officials to do a proper job?

why is it entrapment? if they were not offering underage boys for sex there could be no attempt at entrapment, the fact is they had underage boys there to fulfil the needs of some pervert, the same goes for bars that offer under age girls for some pervert. The place deserves to be shut down.

I assume that in your native country (as in almost all Western countries) the age of consent is 16 or even 14 (yeah I know, not for prostitution).

but this basically means your country supports or accepts perverts or what ?

[astral]

This topic is about the raid in a bar alledgedly offering under age boys,

NOT a general discussion on sexuality and homophobia.

Therefore I have deleted many posts.

[elshaheen]

They all look over 18 to me....

I was just down there on Friday, in that area. They boys did look over 18, Crazy Dragons club, looked like a mixture of both underage and above 18.

[elshaheen]

I was down in that area talking to some friends there.

The boys / workers, well some of them at that bar looked over 18, well most of them. It was the place next to that bar, with the old men who looked like they were under 18. Crazy Dragon, looked like a mixture.

[JohnLeech]

Let's face it. There is a big cultural difference. .....(edited)

Are you trying to condone the crime based on nationality?

Seems odd to me!

I don't think anyone is remotely condoning the crime, but like it or not nationality does play a part in it in Thailand. Where the age of consent is very clear in most countries (and well below 18 in most western countries - as low as 12 in the sacred halls of the Vatican City) the same is not true of Thailand, where it is automatically assumed that anyone having sex with a farang can only be doing so for financial reward (possibly true, but not automatically so). Consequently while Thais can generally get away with sex with 15 - 18 year olds, farangs cannot.

"Odd" it may be, but there it is.

[Jingthing]

I was down in that area talking to some friends there.

The boys / workers, well some of them at that bar looked over 18, well most of them. It was the place next to that bar, with the old men who looked like they were under 18. Crazy Dragon, looked like a mixture.

I have read on the gay forums that the owner of Crazy Dragon makes a very big public deal about not employing even one staff person under 18. As such, I feel that the mods should remove your post (and this reply) as my understanding is that you are very, very wrong. I wonder what your agenda is naming that place which has a solid rep of LEGAL AGE only. In any case, naming a place like that is completely inappropriate here without proof. To expand, I don't think we should be publicly naming any establishments in connection with these accusations. It is a very serious charge against a place to mention online without hard evidence. Of course if you see something dodgy you could tip the police, but the reality is the police likely know about it already.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Let's face it. There is a big cultural difference. .....(edited)

Are you trying to condone the crime based on nationality?

Seems odd to me!

I don't think anyone is remotely condoning the crime, but like it or not nationality does play a part in it in Thailand. Where the age of consent is very clear in most countries (and well below 18 in most western countries - as low as 12 in the sacred halls of the Vatican City) the same is not true of Thailand, where it is automatically assumed that anyone having sex with a farang can only be doing so for financial reward (possibly true, but not automatically so). Consequently while Thais can generally get away with sex with 15 - 18 year olds, farangs cannot.

"Odd" it may be, but there it is.

Again, I don't have any direct exposure to this, but I have heard many reports that there is a massive underage sex trade in Thailand, Thai for Thai (or Burmese, etc. for Thai), mostly heterosexual in nature, that has nothing to do with foreigners, and many more people involved than the foreigner trade. I admit this is just what I've heard, but if it is true, it does tell us something about this culture.

So, yes this has nothing to do with westerners condoning these practices (I think its fair to say that the vast majority of westerners don't condone it), but that doesn't mean Thai society in general isn't condoning it to a certain degree.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Jingthing

[Seismic]

I love these discussions, not, I hasten to add because of personal involvement, but because it shows a lot about TV members.

The huge number of posts about paedophiles with 15/16 year old boys, please people, understand the word before posting, a paedophile would be repulsed by a 16 year old boy, the term you are searchimg for is pederast.

Second for the total lack of knowledge about Thailand and its (behind the doors customs). Lots of posts about Nasty Farang coming here to corrupt etc etc,

Get real people, this problem has been here for a long time, way before pattaya had paved roads and phuket was trendy, its only in the news because farang newspapers are exposing it. Most of the visitors to these places are Thai not farang. But thats Ok, we dont want to upset our hosts do we, lets just keep all the villification to those nasty old farang who come here and started all this.

[Seismic]

Are you trying to condone the crime based on nationality?

No. Absolutely not. I said or implied nothing of the kind, but I hope this question is cleared up, once and for all. What I did do was point out that Thai cultural expectations are different than western ones. That seems to be a fact of life.

For once someone posts something that is at the heart of the matter and also totally true, well said Jingthing, I know exactly what you mean, and I dont even need a lawyer to interpret that.

[Jingthing]

So far this subject has been allowed to be discussed here, so I will risk adding comment without any name calling or harassment!

The mods have made it very clear they don't want this kind of off topic discussion on this thread so won't spend the energy to reply to something that will get deleted, and others shouldn't reply either. Perhaps someone should start a new thread in farang pub about this other topic.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I love these discussions, not, I hasten to add because of personal involvement, but because it shows a lot about TV members.

The huge number of posts about paedophiles with 15/16 year old boys, please people, understand the word before posting, a paedophile would be repulsed by a 16 year old boy, the term you are searchimg for is pederast.

The reality is most people don't want to know about the real definition of pederasty and you are fighting a losing battle trying to educate people about this but bully on you for trying. It seems to be a blind spot that most people have, possibly related to the legal system which generally doesn't make those distinctions. The law is one thing, the psychological definitions are another. Of course, those attracted to 17 year olds are not clinically pederasts. I believe in the US marijuana is still legally categorized as a narcotic. Its not a narcotic.

[somchai69]

I do love the way people feel the right to impose their own moral and social values on another sovereign state.

It is like the US senators who are demanding that UK goverment ministers attend their little committee,

to answer about why the Lockerbie bomber was released.

GROSS IMPERTINENCE.

Quite rightly the UK ministers told the senate committee to <deleted> OFF

[Jingthing]

Hey, we are westerners in Thailand. We've got baggage. Some of it is GOOD baggage.

[Haydn]

Why don't they show pictures of the Customers in the places they raid????

[Jingthing]

Why don't they show pictures of the Customers in the places they raid????

Check the link in the OP. There is a picture of customers. Customers in a go go bar have committed no crime of interest to Thai police unless they are drug tested positive or are caught engaging an underage prostitute. In this raid the foreign customer was not a real customer, he was working for the police, so he of course committed no crime. You are wrong that customers are never pictured in press about raids. In the case of this bar, the vast majority of the staff was of legal age (contrary to the misleading headline), and it is unfair to make any assumptions that the customers there that night were interested in underage sex workers. (Of course, some may have been, but a person's private intention without an illegal action is not a crime.) I realize there are still people who think it is scandalous and shameful just to be gay, or shameful to go to a go go bar but if going to a go go bar was a crime in Thailand, imagine how many jails they would have to build.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Jingthing

[Wozzit]

Why don't they show pictures of the Customers in the places they raid????

Check the link in the OP. There is a picture of customers. Customers in a go go bar have committed no crime of interest to Thai police unless they are drug tested positive or are caught engaging an underage prostitute. In this raid the foreign customer was not a real customer, he was working for the police, so he of course committed no crime. You are wrong that customers are never pictured in press about raids. In the case of this bar, the vast majority of the staff was of legal age (contrary to the misleading headline), and it is unfair to make any assumptions that the customers there that night were interested in underage sex workers. (Of course, some may have been, but a person's private intention without an illegal action is not a crime.) I realize there are still people who think it is scandalous and shameful just to be gay, or shameful to go to a go go bar but if going to a go go bar was a crime in Thailand, imagine how many jails they would have to build.

And they would be filled mostly with Thais!

[Scott]

The attraction to post-pubescent children is known as hebophilia and it is not classed as a psychological disorder. It can include either boys or girls and is, of course, illegal depending on the age of the victim and the legal age of consent.

[Jingthing]

The attraction to post-pubescent children is known as hebophilia and it is not classed as a psychological disorder. It can include either boys or girls and is, of course, illegal depending on the age of the victim and the legal age of consent.

Right. And now I will say something controversial (at least to hypocrites), but I think isn't said enough in relation to this sensitive issue.

In my opinion, a significant majority of adult males of any sexuality will find, for example, attractive 16 or 17 year olds sexually attractive to them (of whichever sexes match their orientation). You don't have to look very far for evidence of this. Look at teen aged movie and pop stars and how much of humanity sees them as sex symbols. However, only reckless fools ignore the LAWS of the country they are in (or in the case of western countries which enforce such laws across national lines anywhere they are at). I find an incredible amount of hysteria and hypocrisy about this issue, probably mostly from normal men who share normal sexual responses (as noted above). I think it would be much more honest to reserve the deserved horror for crimes against children, in other words actual pederasty. The law needs to be respected strictly, but that doesn't mean we have to be robots and not realize there is human ambiguity about this issue, different ages of consent across nations, the relative sexual maturity of individual humans (who don't develop at exactly the same rates).

To put this another way, if you are at the beach and you see a pretty 16 or 17 year old and you are attracted to them, you are not a sick person and not a criminal, you are very normal. That is a very different thing than ACTING on an attraction towards a sexually mature person who is indeed UNDER the age of consent. Act on it, well then you ARE a criminal, unless you are in a country with a lower age of consent (and not from one of the transnational enforcing countries noted above).

Caveats -- I am saying most men. Not all men. Some men are asexual after all!

Expecting flames about this. Some people can't take the truth.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Jingthing

[chantorn]

Are you trying to condone the crime based on nationality?

No. Absolutely not. I said or implied nothing of the kind, but I hope this question is cleared up, once and for all. What I did do was point out that Thai cultural expectations are different than western ones. That seems to be a fact of life.

For once someone posts something that is at the heart of the matter and also totally true, well said Jingthing, I know exactly what you mean, and I dont even need a lawyer to interpret that.

Nationality & occupation is only for statistic.

I don't think Musician, Russian Musician in particular ,fair very well in Pattaya boy bars scene.

[Jingthing]

Are you trying to condone the crime based on nationality?

No. Absolutely not. I said or implied nothing of the kind, but I hope this question is cleared up, once and for all. What I did do was point out that Thai cultural expectations are different than western ones. That seems to be a fact of life.

For once someone posts something that is at the heart of the matter and also totally true, well said Jingthing, I know exactly what you mean, and I dont even need a lawyer to interpret that.

Nationality & occupation is only for statistic.

I don't think Musician, Russian Musician in particular ,fair very well in Pattaya boy bars scene.

Russian culture is also very different than Thai culture. I said western of course because the majority of thaivisa users are likely westerners.

[thaimate]

Personally i have never understood why anyone would want a person of their own sex for ,well sex ,but each to his/her own ,but it always seems to be underage boy bars ,i cannot remember seeing an underage girl bar .

[Scott]

I would suggest that posters not feed the troll.

[animatic]

The attraction to post-pubescent children is known as hebophilia and it is not classed as a psychological disorder. It can include either boys or girls and is, of course, illegal depending on the age of the victim and the legal age of consent.

Right. And now I will say something controversial (at least to hypocrites), but I think isn't said enough in relation to this sensitive issue.

In my opinion, a significant majority of adult males of any sexuality will find, for example, attractive 16 or 17 year olds sexually attractive to them (of whichever sexes match their orientation). You don't have to look very far for evidence of this. Look at teen aged movie and pop stars and how much of humanity sees them as sex symbols. However, only reckless fools ignore the LAWS of the country they are in (or in the case of western countries which enforce such laws across national lines anywhere they are at). I find an incredible amount of hysteria and hypocrisy about this issue, probably mostly from normal men who share normal sexual responses (as noted above). I think it would be much more honest to reserve the deserved horror for crimes against children, in other words actual pederasty. The law needs to be respected strictly, but that doesn't mean we have to be robots and not realize there is human ambiguity about this issue, different ages of consent across nations, the relative sexual maturity of individual humans (who don't develop at exactly the same rates).

To put this another way, if you are at the beach and you see a pretty 16 or 17 year old and you are attracted to them, you are not a sick person and not a criminal, you are very normal. That is a very different thing than ACTING on an attraction towards a sexually mature person who is indeed UNDER the age of consent. Act on it, well then you ARE a criminal, unless you are in a country with a lower age of consent (and not from one of the transnational enforcing countries noted above).

Caveats -- I am saying most men. Not all men. Some men are asexual after all!

Expecting flames about this. Some people can't take the truth.

No flames here, a well reasoned argument.

Regardless of age some individuals develop attractive sexual characteristics earlier than others.

Those that would be considered normal if they were belonging to someone of 'regionally legitimate age'.

The main issue with protecting those faster 'physically' developing individuals from older persons,

is because their mental and emotional make-up in most cases has not caught up to their physical attributes.

We also know of the mentally precocious teens going after older mates, 'because they want to',

often from dissatisfaction with their peers, or increased income and abilities to be entertaining by the 'older' partner.

But that doesn't obviate the need to protect the majority who are not prepared for the whole process.

So to view an individual as attractive because they have characteristics that we as humans typically

find correct in mates is not wrong, it is a normal nature/nurture matrix. But to then note their age is

below consent, and thus illegal, means to NOT ACT on attraction, but be a thinking, socially observant human,

and not a rutting animal. We don't act on attraction daily, ever time we see someone we find attractive,

but clearly mated already, and similar situations where acting will cause obvious negative consequences.

Those that 'think they see' 'typical' sexual attractiveness characteristics in those that have yet to actually develop them,

are themselves in some regressed state and have some variation of arrested development, and need some help.

It's sad for them, but as long as they rationally do not act on this under-developed instinct to mate,

they are not criminal, just sad.... But the moment they do act they are criminal in act and intent,

because they MUST know they are far outside the bounds of social contracts and decency.

Conversely, there is also always a problem for that 'young couple in love':

a precocious girl just months before legality, and a just legal boy,(or one unsuspecting of her age)

who run afoul of parents. and the boy gets prosecuted, with only a month or 2 on his partners limit,

but no matter the law is precises and he is toast.

If the lad were 6 months young or the girl was 3 months older no issues, just angry scared parents,

but get the ages a little skewed and it becomes a societal calamity

Scott: hebophilia,

a new word for the day, well, one I had completely forgotten.

Not that there is a pressing need to use it regularly.

Edited July 27, 2010 by animatic