Khmer Rouge Prison Chief Sentenced To 35 Years In Prison

[Robby nz]

Didnt mention the USA in my previous post but if what I have read is correct they did openly support and supply Pol Pot simply because he was anti Vietnam.

Since then they havent been much better at picking their friends as they supported the Taliban when Russia went into Afganastan.

And they not only supported Sadam Hussain in the Iran Iraq war but fought with him.

Incidentaly the USA didnt wim WW11 as they like to show, Russia along with Britain were the ones who really defeated Hitlar although the Yanks did help at the end.

Whether they would have joined if the Japs hadnt bombed Pearl Harbour is open to conjuncture.

Yes I'm not very keen on the US of A specially since they instigated the financial meltdown.

[Wozzit]

What's disgusting about all this is why the hel_l justice is being sought decades after the event. The gross ineptitude of the the government and all the quagmire of officialdom, endemic coruption and indifference of the international community, and of course those members of the current government who can no doubt remember those halcyon days slitting children's throats and raping and torturing women to death - is nothing less than pure evil.

It has been mentioned that if more of those psychopathic killers were brought to justice it could trigger a civil war. Does that mean there are still enough Pol Pot sympathizers in Cambodia today who could take up arms against the present government? I have lost faith in humanity.

The delay is unforgivable, but seemingly tied up with Khymer Rouge loyalties and Vietnamese politics. We must remember that the present leader Hun Sen was a member of that Khymer Rouge Killing machine. He and some colleagues, including Heng Samrin, fell out with Pol Pot and fled to Vietnam in late 1978. The VIetnamese assembled a government in exile around them, and installed them in power after their 1979 invasion. In 1999 Hun Sen gave amnesty to several Khymer Rouge thugs, including Khieu Samphan and its chief idealogue Nuon Chea. At the time, he stated a trial would not be in the public interest!!

What does all this say about Cambodia today? Perhaps it will be a safer and more stable country when the last of the demented psychopaths have died and a new breed of educated, enlightened and compassionate leaders come forward and serve their people and country without self-interest. Or is there an evil that will always lurk amongst the gentle smiling faces? The poverty in the countryside is pitiful, and some 30 years after the event. How long did the German reparations take after the allies totally levelled the country? What would Cambodia do without the enormous level of financial aid from the west, mostly from individual benefactors. What is the government doing? It makes one ask whether the country will ever develop.

I share your hope that it will become a safer and more stable country, for I found the Cambodian people some of the friendliest I ever met. And it was not just the war that killed so many of them. Once the United Nations administrators flooded into the country, ostensibly to do good, HIV began to spread alarmingly, and so the Cambodians suffered yet again at the hands of westerners.

I am not sure what you are suggesting in your comment "How long did the Germans take after the allies totally levelled the country?" It was largely the reparations imposed by the allied powers in 1919 that helped create the conditions for the rise of Hitler and his thugs. After the 2nd World War, the massively-funded US Marshall Plan put Germany and other parts of Europe back on their feet far more quickly than had they been left to do it alone. That was partly self-interest - to bolster Europe to ward off the communist threat. But it was also to ensure that the after effects of 1919 did not recur. Cambodia was indeed an inconvenient "sideshow" in the Vietnam War. After Pol Pot, the west did little to help. And with Cambodia being such a poor country, it's almost impossible for it to find the resources needed to drag the country out of its poverty. The west needs to accept its responsibilities and do far more.

[Beetlejuice]

He should have been given the death penalty, because he was a cog in the wheels of the machinery that aided in the murder of innocent men, women and children. No one was exempt during the reign of that brutal regime.

How is this justice for victims that survived and the families of the murdered?

I wonder how this beast wrangled a prison sentence and avoided a death sentence. I smell a payoff in the air.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Beetlejuice

[webfact]

FYI - Cambodia abolished the death penalty for all crimes in 1989

[chantorn]

Justice served at last, although a little too late and a little to light.

[asiawatcher]

I would rather have seen the funds spent on the trial go to the victims families as little as that would have been spread over the thousands. Dutch has to live with his past. The horrors he experienced was out of fear for his own safety - we all have different levels of guilt. His was cowardice or maybe his will to survive was a stronger point - one will never know.

Edited July 26, 2010 by asiawatcher

[Wozzit]

If anyone wants to read about Comrade Duch, there is an amazing memoir by Francois Bizot of his capture by the Khymer Rouge titled "The Gate". Bizot was a prisoner of Duch before the Cambodian was transferred to Tuol Sleng. As William Shawcross wrote in The Sunday Times in the UK, "The Gate is a thrilling, exquisitely observed and terrifying account of the world trapped in the moral cul-de-sac of absolute revolution. It reads like a novel and sears both the consciousness and the heart. If you only ever read one book on Cambodia, make sure it is this one." Writing on the day the trial started early last year, Bizot himself contributed an article to The New York Times. He reminds readers that Duch ordered the death penalty 12,380 times. He then describes and incident following the start of the trial -

Last February, Duch was led, with his consent, to the scenes of his crimes. The visit was a shock for all who witnessed it. This major judicial step took place in an atmosphere of intense, palpable emotion."I ask for your forgiveness — I know that you cannot forgive me, but I ask you to leave me the hope that you might," he said before collapsing in tears on the shoulder of one of his guards. I was not there — it was a closed hearing — but those who were reported that the cry of the former executioner betrayed such suffering that one of the few survivors of Tuol Sleng screamed out, "Here are the words that I've longed to hear for 30 years!" It could be that forgiveness is possible after a simple, natural process, when the victim feels that he has been repaid. And the executioner has to pay dearly, for it is the proof of his suffering that eases ours.

http://www.nytimes.c...on/17bizot.html

Edited July 26, 2010 by Wozzit

[martyboy]

Wozzit. I was just contrasting the rapid post war reparations in Germany, enabled by vested interests and huge amounts of foreign money, with the pitifully slow and almost stationary progress in Cambodia after the country was reduced to year zero. As someone here said, much more needs to be done by other countries but as there is no oil or other riches to plunder I doubt whether the west will get involved but surely Cambodia's rich neighbours like Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, China etc. could do much more. It's amazing what a country will do when it has its self interest at heart.

[tijnebijn]

Unbelievable really , he should have been given one year for every death person at s-21 .

And that is pretty mild , in fact , considering one person would normally get for murder .

And it would harm him in his convicted karma , but that will do its work automatically , me thinks .

Anyway any conviction , is welcome , cause they all got away with it .

I've seen the awful place in Cambodia , it is as Auschwich , and not really advisable to visit , but one learns what humanity is capable of , its bad , those people were pure evil ,

35 years does not bring those people back , it is well enough said really .

[sjaak327]

In my trips to Cambodia, I refused to go to S-21 as it was a tourist attraction

It should be sacred ground.

My biggest disgust is that I as a westerner supported this regime, but now we pretend not to remember our part..

Whilst I understand your view, I must say it is not a massive tourist attraction, and the silence there can be pretty intense. I found it very impressive, ande I suspect not many people would not be shocked or influenced by the pictures that are shown there. I think it also vital to at least try to understand this episode of the country's history.

I kind of think it is a must visit.

[chosen1]

at least its something - he could still be roaming free like the rest of them

[katana]

The Khmer Rouge could never have seized power if the United States had not destabilized the entire region with its aggression. A great deal of the blame lies with the US. It would be wonderful if the US would apologize and pay reparations to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. It would certainly be a better use of billions of dollars than bailing out Wall Street.

The US was quick to force reparations from BP in the recent accidental Gulf of Mexico oil leak. But not so quick to give reparations to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos which had 1000s of tons of TNT and agent orange dropped on them in the Vietnam war. Unexploded ordnance and the after effects of agent orange are still causing difficulties in these countires to this day.

[Svenn]

Last February, Duch was led, with his consent, to the scenes of his crimes. The visit was a shock for all who witnessed it. This major judicial step took place in an atmosphere of intense, palpable emotion."I ask for your forgiveness — I know that you cannot forgive me, but I ask you to leave me the hope that you might," he said before collapsing in tears on the shoulder of one of his guards. I was not there — it was a closed hearing — but those who were reported that the cry of the former executioner betrayed such suffering that one of the few survivors of Tuol Sleng screamed out, "Here are the words that I've longed to hear for 30 years!" It could be that forgiveness is possible after a simple, natural process, when the victim feels that he has been repaid. And the executioner has to pay dearly, for it is the proof of his suffering that eases ours.

http://www.nytimes.c...on/17bizot.html

Very interesting story... of the hundreds of victims' complaints I went through, a good portion asked merely for that and nothing else; an apology. ... often times that's all it takes.

[JohnLeech]

It has been mentioned that if more of those psychopathic killers were brought to justice it could trigger a civil war. Does that mean there are still enough Pol Pot sympathizers in Cambodia today who could take up arms against the present government? I have lost faith in humanity.

No, it means that the majority of those involved were not "psychopathic killers" or "demented psychopaths" but were either "child soldiers", like many of those in Africa now, who were and are all too easily led astray by genuinely evil men, or they were terrified individuals trying to save themselves and their families who knew that if they did not follow the party line totally and (outwardly) willingly then they and all their family would be the next to be killed.

That is not an excuse, its simply how it was. Its not that they are "Pol Pot sympathizers", far from it. Its simply that the numbers involved are such that if you were to try to bring all those who committed and were involved in the atrocities to justice you would be decimating the country again. These atrocities were not committed against another nationality or religion or ethnic group, but against each other - the Cambodians are not trying to write off the past, to pretend it didn't happen, to forgive those involved or to seek retribution, but they are simply trying to move on and most Cambodians I met when I was there with UNAMIC and UNTAC realised that the only way ahead was together, regardless of what had happened.

[Svenn]

No, it means that the majority of those involved were not "psychopathic killers" or "demented psychopaths" but were either "child soldiers", like many of those in Africa now, who were and are all too easily led astray by genuinely evil men, or they were terrified individuals trying to save themselves and their families who knew that if they did not follow the party line totally and (outwardly) willingly then they and all their family would be the next to be killed.

There was certainly an element of that, but people also need to realize a lot of the KR cadres murdered without provocation from above or any 'brainwashing', but out of their own free will. One of the hardest parts the ECCC has encountered is the absence of any direct orders from Pol Pot or other leaders to the killings, many local soldiers killed out of pure malice or baseless reasoning, they didn't even try to justify it with communist ideology at all (I recall several where a guy killed local families simply because they were richer than him or disrespected him in the past). I don't buy into the NGO hype that Cambodians are a peaceful, happy, nonviolent people that were somehow subjugated to the KR era from alien forces... Cambodia had a long history all the way back to Angkor, as did the rest of SE Asia, of tyrannical leaders and mass subjugation, though nothing of this magnitude. This isn't to say that at some point we need to accept that even though most benevolent individual can be lead astray, as you say... it is a very unsatisfying conclusion, but we must accept it.

[JohnLeech]

many local soldiers killed out of pure malice or baseless reasoning, they didn't even try to justify it with communist ideology at all (I recall several where a guy killed local families simply because they were richer than him or disrespected him in the past).

That's perfectly "normal" when there has been a total breakdown of any form of law and order and anarchy reigns - old scores get settled. Nothing to do with communist or any other ideology or, except by opportunism, the KR.

I don't buy into the NGO hype that Cambodians are a peaceful, happy, nonviolent people .........

Agreed - sad though it may be, the only "peaceful, happy, nonviolent people" are minorities, usually with no assets, subjugated and controlled by their unpleasant opposites.

[martyboy]

Surely the KR soldiers who did their terrible deeds were not educated political idealists like Pol Pot, albeit a lunatic idealism. Didn't they lust for the blood of their victims? The defence that perpetrators of atrocities were only taking orders is thank God no defence, if that were so all those Nazi killers would still be walking the streets, should they still be alive.

[bristolgeoff]

he got his reward for what he done all those years ago.he is going to hel_l now for the people he hurt

Edited July 26, 2010 by bristolgeoff

[roamer]

In my trips to Cambodia, I refused to go to S-21 as it was a tourist attraction

It should be sacred ground.

My biggest disgust is that I as a westerner supported this regime, but now we pretend not to remember our part..

Whilst I understand your view, I must say it is not a massive tourist attraction, and the silence there can be pretty intense. I found it very impressive, ande I suspect not many people would not be shocked or influenced by the pictures that are shown there. I think it also vital to at least try to understand this episode of the country's history.

I kind of think it is a must visit.

I believe that without visiting Tuol Sleng you can only ever view this in an academic sense, wars happen yeah ? Go there.

I like to think of myself as a fairly modern progressive type, now I can't help feeling they got it right at Nuremberg. As one of the victims daughters exclaimed, his sentence is 11 hours for each victim...and he signed off on every one of them. International court of justice ? Don't make me laugh. What an insult to the victims.

[lapoon]

In my trips to Cambodia, I refused to go to S-21 as it was a tourist attraction

It should be sacred ground.

My biggest disgust is that I as a westerner supported this regime, but now we pretend not to remember our part..

Whilst I understand your view, I must say it is not a massive tourist attraction, and the silence there can be pretty intense. I found it very impressive, ande I suspect not many people would not be shocked or influenced by the pictures that are shown there. I think it also vital to at least try to understand this episode of the country's history.

I kind of think it is a must visit.

I believe that without visiting Tuol Sleng you can only ever view this in an academic sense, wars happen yeah ? Go there.

I like to think of myself as a fairly modern progressive type, now I can't help feeling they got it right at Nuremberg. As one of the victims daughters exclaimed, his sentence is 11 hours for each victim...and he signed off on every one of them. International court of justice ? Don't make me laugh. What an insult to the victims.

There is another place near Battambung where I visited ,at first I didnt take any photos but then just took a few to remind myself.

My point really is that in my travels I see this lack of knowledge, often of the west involvement. I am not mentioning any particular country.

I believe that I had heard of the stuff that was happening, its not as if we only found out later.

I firmly believe that we should know what we, or ours are doing. I'm in my 60's when I talk to younger people they have no idea of lots of history.

[Wozzit]

Wozzit. I was just contrasting the rapid post war reparations in Germany, enabled by vested interests and huge amounts of foreign money, with the pitifully slow and almost stationary progress in Cambodia after the country was reduced to year zero. As someone here said, much more needs to be done by other countries but as there is no oil or other riches to plunder I doubt whether the west will get involved but surely Cambodia's rich neighbours like Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, China etc. could do much more. It's amazing what a country will do when it has its self interest at heart.

Getting Europe back on to its feet vey quickly was very much in the self-interest of the United States after World War 2. Unfortunately it's not really in the interests of other countries in this region to see Cambodia back on its feet. There is a history of bad blood between Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam, Laos is too poor, Malaysia and Singapore are too far away. Yes, you are correct. They should do much more to help. But as Bismark said, "Politics is the art of the possible." There's not much to be gained politically by helping a poor country like Cambodia. Morally . . . well, that's a quality not many politicians seem to possess.

[Werfer]

This worm just got his sentence cut in half.

[Tropicalevo]

The Khmer Rouge could never have seized power if the United States had not destabilized the entire region with its aggression. A great deal of the blame lies with the US. It would be wonderful if the US would apologize and pay reparations to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. It would certainly be a better use of billions of dollars than bailing out Wall Street.

I agree that the US was part of the problem, for sure. But how far back do you go? Bolivia for the millions who died mining silver for the Spanish? The hundreds who died in Indonesia fighting against the Dutch? The UK was all over the world (Middle East, India, Pakistan...well, there truly were everywhere). And Africa is basically a mess due to mainly European countries and religious institutions. It's terrible when countries do this stuff and then get away with it...to this day...

Agreed. You have to stop somewhere. If not, then you can trace the present conflict between certain muslims and certain non-muslims to the Crusades. I do think meaningful justice basically requires a physical presence. So punishment can be meted out for crimes committed by a person or persons who remain alive, whereas those who are dead escape. (I know this might open up a debate about justice for those killed by the state and then proved innocent, but I think that is a separate issue).

You can thank the French for creating the tension in the first place. But it was the Arms trade which was the real motivation behind the war. They sure sold a lot of bombs.

Some of which continue to kill and maim today - mostly children, especially in Laos. Lest we forget, the war was centred on Vietnam, but embraced Cambodia and also Laos . Yet, in a largely secret war, more tonnage was dropped over Laos than by all combatants during the entire Second World War. That amounted to one planeload of bombs every 8 minutes, 24 hours per day for 9 years! It is the most bombed country in history!

Sorry that it is a large quote - but the US was more than a 'part of the problem'. Not only did they bomb Laos and Cambodia, but they actively supported the Pol Pot regime (in a similar way that they supprted Osama bin Laden). They supported Pol Pot to try and keep the communists out of Cambodia. Even when Hun Sen was democratically elected - they refused to acknowledge him. The US has put almost NO aid into Cambodia. The CIA were a MAJOR part of the problem.

[Tropicalevo]

to many this will bring closure but to many other that contribited to the killings they still live freely. ( many in the current HS goverment)

My Cambodian gf lost many members of her family and the ones that survived will not talk about it. They just want to get on with their lives.

This was the sentiment I encountered as well... Cambodians have a very different notion of 'justice' than we do in the west- the concept of holding Duch and a few other 'senior leaders' up as the "representative" of the atrocities the victims personally faced is counterintuitive and not very gratifying for their profoundly deep wounds. The whole trials actually seem like an exercise in barang guilt as far as I can tell... most of the country has no idea they're even going on or are indifferent, and they're only really proceeding at the mercy of Hun Sen. I know an old Polish lady here in the states who gets $200 a month from the Germans, I don't see why Cambodia, France, and the US couldn't pitch in and do something similar. Though I don't want put all the blame on the West as others are oft to do... take a look at the engravings of mass enslavement on Angkor Wat and you'll notice some of the aspects of the KR era weren't entirely unprecedented.

It is more complicated than that.

Basically there were 3 types of Khmers during the Pol Pot regime.

1 those that fled the country

2 those that supported the regime

3 those that died

This grossly over simplifies it, but if you did not kill people - you were killed! Those that survived probably do not want to remember it for many reasons. For example, those guards in S-21 that did not get enough 'confessions', became prisoners themselves.

It was a very sad period of the history of the evils of mankind, and it was not that long ago.

[Wozzit]

Agreed. You have to stop somewhere. If not, then you can trace the present conflict between certain muslims and certain non-muslims to the Crusades. I do think meaningful justice basically requires a physical presence. So punishment can be meted out for crimes committed by a person or persons who remain alive, whereas those who are dead escape. (I know this might open up a debate about justice for those killed by the state and then proved innocent, but I think that is a separate issue).

You can thank the French for creating the tension in the first place. But it was the Arms trade which was the real motivation behind the war. They sure sold a lot of bombs.

Some of which continue to kill and maim today - mostly children, especially in Laos. Lest we forget, the war was centred on Vietnam, but embraced Cambodia and also Laos . Yet, in a largely secret war, more tonnage was dropped over Laos than by all combatants during the entire Second World War. That amounted to one planeload of bombs every 8 minutes, 24 hours per day for 9 years! It is the most bombed country in history!

Sorry that it is a large quote - but the US was more than a 'part of the problem'. Not only did they bomb Laos and Cambodia, but they actively supported the Pol Pot regime (in a similar way that they supprted Osama bin Laden). They supported Pol Pot to try and keep the communists out of Cambodia. Even when Hun Sen was democratically elected - they refused to acknowledge him. The US has put almost NO aid into Cambodia. The CIA were a MAJOR part of the problem.

Even before its support of Pol Pot, the US/CIA destabilised Cambodia in 1970 when it arranged for Sihanouk to be deposed and replaced by its puppet Head of Government, Lon Nol - much the same as they did in South Vietnam.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Wozzit

[johnefallis]

The US has put almost NO aid into Cambodia.

Really? Where did you get this statistic from? I'd like to check it.

[Wozzit]

There is one issue which I think has not yet been aired re the relative leniency of the sentence handed down to Duch. This is part of an articleby a Cambodian Khymer Rouge survivor in Engand's Guardian on-line newspaper -

I also know there may have been another reason for the court to reduce Duch's sentence. At a post-verdict debate in a Phnom Penh hotel, US Ambassador at Large for war crimes issues Stephen Rapp said that in his experience it is always best to lessen the punishment for a convicted person on whom you may rely in a future trial. Otherwise they may not co-operate when you need them. In this instance, the Khmer Rouge tribunal certainly needs Duch's help in their next prosecutions of the four most senior surviving leaders, in particular Nuon Chea, Pol Pot's deputy who is also sometimes known as Brother Number Two. That case is due for indictment in September. The charges expected are crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/jul/27/khmer-rouge-war-crimes-sentence

Edited July 28, 2010 by Wozzit

[JohnLeech]

.......The defence that perpetrators of atrocities were only taking orders is thank God no defence, if that were so all those Nazi killers would still be walking the streets, should they still be alive.

Most of them are (unless they died of natural causes after they had been walking the streets free). Very few were tried and even fewer were executed.

[Tanaka]

The Khmer Rouge could never have seized power if the United States had not destabilized the entire region with its aggression. A great deal of the blame lies with the US. It would be wonderful if the US would apologize and pay reparations to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. It would certainly be a better use of billions of dollars than bailing out Wall Street.

I agree that the US was part of the problem, for sure. But how far back do you go? Bolivia for the millions who died mining silver for the Spanish? The hundreds who died in Indonesia fighting against the Dutch? The UK was all over the world (Middle East, India, Pakistan...well, there truly were everywhere). And Africa is basically a mess due to mainly European countries and religious institutions. It's terrible when countries do this stuff and then get away with it...to this day...

How about the genocide performed on native Americans by the invaders from Europe? Who now cheer a flag over the country their ancestors stole. They consider themselves proud to be "Americans". They should be ashamed.

[Fookhaht]

The US has put almost NO aid into Cambodia.

You should be thoroughly censured on this website for throwing about totally unsubstantiated pronouncements like this. Your trollish statements are only aimed at turning the heat up in this forum, and are unappreciated by any thoughtful poster.

From the Website "Foreign Polity in Focus", we're reminded that in the 1990's, the U.S. contributed $25.5 million in aid to Cambodia on an annual basis.

Source: http://www.fpif.org/reports/cambodia

Another report goes on.....

"Reports of foreign aid to Cambodia continue despite the global economic crisis. CAAI News Media shares news that the United States will give Cambodia $21 million USD over four years in a program to alleviate poverty in rural parts of the country."According to a story posted by Cambodian News, the U.S. provided a total of $5.6 million USD in aid in 2008."

Source: http://globalvoiceso...conomic-crisis/ (This $5.6 million is only part of an overall annual aid package directed toward Cambodia.)

Another report:

"U.S. assistance to Cambodia administered by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) mission in 2009 totaled nearly $62million for programs in health, education, governance, and economic growth."

Source: http://www.state.gov...ei/bgn/2732.htm

Tropicalevo, you owe every poster on this thread (and especially every American) an apology for your blatantly false statement. The USA continues to be the most generous country on earth when it comes to aid to foreign countries, and that includes Cambodia.

Following your admission of posting false information, we'd like you to post how much YOUR country contributed to Cambodia during these same years. However, I have a feeling after you do this, we'll have to very carefully check your sources (should you uncharacteristically cite any references, that is).