A Monk Asking For Money

[camerata]

Last week in Sukhumvit a Thai friend of mine was approached by a monk who asked which bus went to some temple or other. Apparently he was from Udon and was having problems finding his way around Bangkok by bus. My friend didn't know the temple. The monk then asked her for some money so he could take a taxi to the temple.

I wonder if this type of thing is allowed under the monastic code?

[Nordlys]

Last week in Sukhumvit a Thai friend of mine was approached by a monk who asked which bus went to some temple or other. Apparently he was from Udon and was having problems finding his way around Bangkok by bus. My friend didn't know the temple. The monk then asked her for some money so he could take a taxi to the temple.

I wonder if this type of thing is allowed under the monastic code?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Strictly speaking, are they not even supposed to touch money?

And don't they get free ride on public buses (I can't ascertain on that but that's what I heard from my TW)?

Where I work in Ayutthaya we used to see fake monks visiting our office every once in a while asking for donation (also fake charity organization pretending to be 'Ruamkatanyuu' and 'Pohtektung' like rescue organizations soliciting donations). Is it possible maybe he's one of them?

Then I see monks selling souvenirs at some of the famous temples attracting tourists. I have actually handed cash to a monk at a souvenir shop at Wat Saket (Golden Mountain temple). Is that allowed?

Edited July 5, 2005 by Nordlys

[Oleg_Rus]

I guess if money go to some charity - it's allowed. and if money will go to monk's saving account - consider it as a charity too. Anyway, it's up to you to give them or not, it's your sacred choice - and they got no choice but to beg...

Silly , right?

[suprnogo]

I've seem a monk use an ATM, so they must be able to touch money.

[sabaijai]

Last week in Sukhumvit a Thai friend of mine was approached by a monk who asked which bus went to some temple or other. Apparently he was from Udon and was having problems finding his way around Bangkok by bus. My friend didn't know the temple. The monk then asked her for some money so he could take a taxi to the temple.

I wonder if this type of thing is allowed under the monastic code?

Two violations of the Vinaya (monastic code) in this situation:

1) Touching money.

2) Asking for something for one's own use.

Neither, strictly speaking, is allowed. In strict monasteries you will never see monks touch money. And no monk of good standing will ever ask for anything for his own use, whether food, money, etc. Even the morning alms round, when a monk opens his bowl to receive alms, he is not considered to be asking for something, rather he is performing his duty to allow laypeople to make merit. (At some monasteries they don't even do alms rounds; instead lay people bring food to the monastery.)

Even novices - samaneras - vow not to accept money.

References:

Definition of 'money' in the Vinaya

rules for money

(to wit:)

FAQ 5: "The Vinaya rules disallow monks from touching or handling money. As such, in Buddhist countries monks must have a Kappiya [attendant] to handle money for them. However, if a monk has to travel and does not have a Kappiya, under such circumstances do the Vinaya rules allow him to handle money personally? This is a problem especially in non-Buddhist countries."

A: While it may be a problem or inconvenience, the rules are there to protect and remind the monk about dangerous, unskillful actions. If the monk becomes increasingly involved with money there is a tendency for the whole of his bhikkhu-life to be compromised — and that would be a far greater problem. Soon after the Final Passing Away of the Lord Buddha this sort of question had already become a major controversy and it is now even more complex under modern conditions.

However, modern conditions also have brought their own assistance to keeping these rules. For instance, a bhikkhu can be given an air ticket and travel around the world (if need be) without having any money or attendant. He will need to be met at the airport and helped in the normal way, but that should be natural if he has been invited to come by the lay group. (He should not really be traveling otherwise.) And, of course, a monk can use postage stamps and 'telephone-cards' that add convenience to communicating — when it is appropriate. (See the section on Money, especially the Me.n.daka Allowance.)"

---

Money

The rule about a bhikkhu not accepting money came to be made when Ven. Upananda went to visit his regular supporters on alms round. The meat that had been set aside for him that morning had instead been given to the family's hungry son. The householder wished to give something else to make up for it and asked what he could offer to the value of a kahaapana coin. Ven. Upananda inquired if he was making a gift of a kahaapana coin to him, and then took the money away. Lay people were disgusted with this, saying, "Just as we lay people accept money, so too do these Buddhist monks!."

This Rule has been variously translated:

"Should any bhikkhu take gold and silver, or have it taken, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed."(Nis. Paac. 18; BMC p.214)

"Should any bhikkhu pick up, or cause to be picked up or consent to the deposit of gold or silver, this entails Confession with Forfeiture." (Nis. Paac. 18; Paat. 1966 Ed. p.42)

"A monk, who accepts gold or money or gets another to accept for him, or acquiesces in its being put near him, commits [an offence requiring Confession with Forfeiture.]" (Nis. Paac. 18; BBC p.116)

"If a bhikkhu himself receives gold and silver (money) or gets someone else to receive it, or if he is glad about money that is being kept for him, it is [an offence of Confession with Forfeiture.]"(Nis. Paac. 18; Nv p.11)

[chownah]

Of course they can touch money, how do you think they buy things?

[Rinrada]

They all seem to have the latest mobile phones...but then in a way i suppose thats the name of the game

[camerata]

Two violations of the Vinaya (monastic code) in this situation:

1) Touching money.

This particular monk produced a piece of cloth to receive the money on, so I guess no rule broken there. He could easily give it to a taxi driver in the same way, although this seems to violate the spirit of the Vinaya if not the letter.

2) Asking for something for one's own use.

Neither, strictly speaking, is allowed. In strict monasteries you will never see monks touch money. And no monk of good standing will ever ask for anything for his own use, whether food, money, etc. Even the morning alms round, when a monk opens his bowl to receive alms, he is not considered to be asking for something, rather he is performing his duty to allow laypeople to make merit.

That's what I was thinking. Presumably, if a monk was wandering around lost upcountry some villagers would take him where he wanted to go, so no need to have to ask for money for transport. But it isn't like that in the big city...

However, modern conditions also have brought their own assistance to keeping these rules. For instance, a bhikkhu can be given an air ticket and travel around the world (if need be) without having any money or attendant. He will need to be met at the airport and helped in the normal way, but that should be natural if he has been invited to come by the lay group. (He should not really be traveling otherwise.) And, of course, a monk can use postage stamps and 'telephone-cards' that add convenience to communicating — when it is appropriate. (See the section on Money, especially the Me.n.daka Allowance.)"

On inbound flights to Thailand now we are treated to a TAT video with repeated images of monks on the BTS and skytrain, presumably to make the point that the kingdom has both technology and culture. In reality, I have rarely seen monks on these trains and I wonder if they are allowed to travel free or if they are allowed to handle the fare tokens and cards that represent money?

[meadish_sweetball]

Two violations of the Vinaya (monastic code) in this situation:

1) Touching money.

This particular monk produced a piece of cloth to receive the money on, so I guess no rule broken there. He could easily give it to a taxi driver in the same way, although this seems to violate the spirit of the Vinaya if not the letter.

2) Asking for something for one's own use.

Neither, strictly speaking, is allowed. In strict monasteries you will never see monks touch money. And no monk of good standing will ever ask for anything for his own use, whether food, money, etc. Even the morning alms round, when a monk opens his bowl to receive alms, he is not considered to be asking for something, rather he is performing his duty to allow laypeople to make merit.

That's what I was thinking. Presumably, if a monk was wandering around lost upcountry some villagers would take him where he wanted to go, so no need to have to ask for money for transport. But it isn't like that in the big city...

However, modern conditions also have brought their own assistance to keeping these rules. For instance, a bhikkhu can be given an air ticket and travel around the world (if need be) without having any money or attendant. He will need to be met at the airport and helped in the normal way, but that should be natural if he has been invited to come by the lay group. (He should not really be traveling otherwise.) And, of course, a monk can use postage stamps and 'telephone-cards' that add convenience to communicating — when it is appropriate. (See the section on Money, especially the Me.n.daka Allowance.)"

On inbound flights to Thailand now we are treated to a TAT video with repeated images of monks on the BTS and skytrain, presumably to make the point that the kingdom has both technology and culture. In reality, I have rarely seen monks on these trains and I wonder if they are allowed to travel free or if they are allowed to handle the fare tokens and cards that represent money?

Judging from what I have seen, they do use both taxis and public transport. I think a lot of this depends on the individual wat the monk is stationed at, as well as his own interpretation and convictions. Bear in mind that people may donate things such as mobile phones to the monks, and this appears to be quite common. I think it is less common to see monks buying the phones themselves, although there are always monks at Panthip when I visit there.... and I guess they are not only window-shopping?

As for donations - am I correct in believing a monk should never turn down a gift from a layman?

[Sophon]

And don't they get free ride on public buses (I can't ascertain on that but that's what I heard from my TW)? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes they do. I don't know about the skytrain and the new subway, but Buddhist monks and novices get to ride free on the public busses.

Sophon

[sabaijai]

To go back to Camerata's original question, yes it is unequivocally against the Vinaya to handle money, to enter into any commercial transaction (i.e., buying something) or to ask for anything - whether money, food or medicine - that's for personal use (or for any Sangha use, for that matter; monks can ask for material assistant for laypeople).

Does every monk in Thailand follow all 227 precepts? Obviously the answer is no, but that wasn't the question.

The way monks are able to move around by public transport, while keeping their vows, is to travel with a kappiya, a layperson assigned to assist with such movement. In Thailand it's often a dek wat (temple kid) or luuk sit (a layperson who studies with the monk, and also acts as his assistance).

The State Railway of Thailand offers monks a 50% discount on fares, by the way. I believe long-distance government buses offer the same discount, but I'm not sure.

The Vinaya is clear on these matters. Of course there are plenty of monks in Thailand who don't follow the Vinaya. There are also plenty who do. Money is just one example of Vinaya issues in the Thai Sangha. It extends to predicting lottery numbers (also a violation of the precepts), making tattoos (ditto), touching the opposite sex, and so on.

[Dara]

Last week in Sukhumvit a Thai friend of mine was approached by a monk who asked which bus went to some temple or other. Apparently he was from Udon and was having problems finding his way around Bangkok by bus. My friend didn't know the temple. The monk then asked her for some money so he could take a taxi to the temple.

I wonder if this type of thing is allowed under the monastic code?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are crooks who pose as monks and ask for taxi money also - they've been around Bkk for a while too.....

[sabaijai]

Last week in Sukhumvit a Thai friend of mine was approached by a monk who asked which bus went to some temple or other. Apparently he was from Udon and was having problems finding his way around Bangkok by bus. My friend didn't know the temple. The monk then asked her for some money so he could take a taxi to the temple.

I wonder if this type of thing is allowed under the monastic code?

There are crooks who pose as monks and ask for taxi money also - they've been around Bkk for a while too.....

Yes I've also heard there are con artists around who simply don the robes without benefit of ordination and scam money. Come to think of it, that's probably the most logical explanation for the bus station approach. Although there are many monks who do violate the precepts on handling money and asking for things, few would do the latter so brazenly.