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Robert Amsterdam Responds To Somtow's Article


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Amsterdam's whole career is built on creating lies, fabrications, internet creations and memes for his clients. That is all anyone needs to know. Period.

Glad to see you are taking a broad civilised view in the spirit of genuine inquiry.Actually Amsterdam wiped the floor with poor old Somtow whose Eton/Cambridge brain has probably atrophied in Thailand's intellectually stultifying atmosphere where fairy tales are taken at face value.Both contributions were loaded cases, but that's fair enough.Amsterdam like most PR men is not my cup of tea but your summary of his career is ridiculous.He is taken seriously for example by the admirable Charlie Rose (who can be seen on Bloomberg now, a rare oasis of civilised discussion on the telly)

Still it's sad to see you in this mode - not the fair minded person I remember.Are you really comfortable to be in the company of the feral posters with their inane bleating "two legs bad four legs good" approach?

His whole career has been built on being paid by people of dubious repute and building an image for them that raises the good or any point they want to make and hides the bad. Part of it has in the past been the creation of so called independent web sites and web related propaganda amongst other such stuff. Such like people I really do not waste my time on whoever they represent. These days we live in a belief based society and creation of meme and thought control are the tools of the rich and powerful here (meaning not only in Thailand). Those who simlalry propagandize other partuies in Thailand's ongoing power games should similarly be ignored. Listening to propagandists is in both dangerous and a waste of time imho.

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Mr. Robert, as well as his employer appear to have an inflated feeling of intelligence and self worth. The good part is that they have spent countless hours of their respective time and money to put out a piece of garbage which may be accepted as truth , by those of less intelligence, than they feel they have. The thought behind the 'white paper' is apparently pure unadulterated propaganda, which is expected when the employer and the sources records and moral attitudes are both considered. What both parties seem to not accept, is that there are a certain per cent of the population (even in Thailand) who have more moral fiber, intelligence, and self respect than they or the minions who are on their payroll. This percentage seems to be increasing over the past few years, even though they keep harping on the restriction which they perceive, to be in effect today.

Excellent post also note that neither one of them is a resident of Thailand. They both choose on there own accord to live outside it.

Example is the best teacher. And as you have said the last few years Thailand has been seing more moral fiber, intelligence, and self respect. Ever sense they got rid of The Thaksin puppets.

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So far no one has been able to counter anything but emotional and fictional blah blah against Robert Amsterdam's White Paper.

I read the Whole document very carefully and I must say that this is an excellent piece of work, well written and sticking to verifiable facts. His call for a truly independent panel of experts to investigate the truth is THE ONLY WAY to initiate true reconciliation in Thailand. I wished that at least one single person in the sitting government would have the intelligence of the people who were writing this document.

I know that I will be flamed for my opinion and instead of real facts and arguments and calls for the truth there will only be stupid emotional attacks.

Guess what? I don't care...and I will not answer on this topic again - enough said.

Good - :lol:

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So far no one has been able to counter anything but emotional and fictional blah blah against Robert Amsterdam's White Paper.

I read the Whole document very carefully and I must say that this is an excellent piece of work, well written and sticking to verifiable facts. His call for a truly independent panel of experts to investigate the truth is THE ONLY WAY to initiate true reconciliation in Thailand. I wished that at least one single person in the sitting government would have the intelligence of the people who were writing this document.

I know that I will be flamed for my opinion and instead of real facts and arguments and calls for the truth there will only be stupid emotional attacks.

Guess what? I don't care...and I will not answer on this topic again - enough said.

I absolutely agree with you.

I also think it is an excellent piece of work. It is high time that whoever commits crimes in this country is punished for it. Until now the big fish are not only getting away - they are rewarded for the crimes they commit. There is no reconciliation without the truth being established first - brutally exposed - and those responsible for crimes punished whatever color they are.

Of course with Thailand being so close to a failed state with an extremely corrupt executive and legislative, a judiciary which can be "influenced" and bought - this is an almost impossible task.

The elite whichever side they are on - and I count Thaksin into the elite as well - is using this country and it's people for to long for their own personal gain. This countries politics are like a football game without a referee - only the powerful and connected are allowed to play - whoever finds the dirtier tricks gains the upper hand in the game - and the spectators are the Thai people who watch and wonder what is going on - without being given the right to participate.

I see no hope for Thailand at least not in the foreseeable future - whoever would win possible elections - the vicious cycle would just continue with some of the players switched - money, power-games, lies, deception, stealing and corruption - I feel sorry for you Thailand! I really do!

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Hammered posted

Amsterdam's whole career is built on creating lies, fabrications, internet creations and memes for his clients. That is all anyone needs to know. Period.

I guess I could make the obligatory joke here about lawyers, Doh. However this is what Lawyers do ... that is what they are paid to do ... that is why you hire them and that is why the goverment retains a slew of them. All the blather like the above, leads me to conclude a lot of posters here have led very sheltered lives, and bravo, but my god this is the real world.

Amsterdam makes a very good rebuttal to Mr Somtow. I would like to see Mr Somntow respond but that is highly doubtful.

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So far no one has been able to counter anything but emotional and fictional blah blah against Robert Amsterdam's White Paper.

I read the Whole document very carefully and I must say that this is an excellent piece of work, well written and sticking to verifiable facts. His call for a truly independent panel of experts to investigate the truth is THE ONLY WAY to initiate true reconciliation in Thailand. I wished that at least one single person in the sitting government would have the intelligence of the people who were writing this document.

I know that I will be flamed for my opinion and instead of real facts and arguments and calls for the truth there will only be stupid emotional attacks.

Guess what? I don't care...and I will not answer on this topic again - enough said.

Not sure why he answered in the first place.

My money says his mind was made up and then he read the white paper.

Having all his assumptions proven with half facts legal manipulation of terms which had nothing to do with the atrocity of the actual events. He found it not necessary to read.

Somtow's Article

I myself am not a lawer and can not imagine wading through 75 pages of a lawers writing. Particularly when the Lawer is hired to make some one look good. I particularly liked in his response that corruption has gotten worse sense Thaksin left office. I really don't know where he gets that fact. However if one stops and thinks about it, it does have a seed of truth to it. After all one can only be so corrupt time does not allow for more. But when that individual is gone it allows more people in and as a group they can do far more corruption than one man who would not allow them to encroach on his private domain. Let us not forget that it was Thaksins puppets who eventualy replaced him. You will notice that Robert Amsterdam's does not place the starting time for the increase in corruption as the time Abhisit took over. Just speculation but there is always the possibility that it has decreased under the Abhisit regime. I don't know what the facts are but I post it to show just some of the ways Amsterdam's article can be misleading. And I am not even a lawyer and I can see through that.

Here's another analysis about coruption;

- Abhisit has said many times already that he will take action to stop corruption. He demanded that his coalition partners put the brakes on their bus deal and from what I understand the 'rake offf' factor has been reduced massively. This is a first, an absolute first for a sitting Pm to take on his coalition partners, Ahbisit bit the bullet and did it, first ever for a PM in Thailand. Additionally Abhisit very quickly removed one of his own party when the guy got caught and Abhisit publically castigated the guy. Again a first, Abhisit had the guts and the determination to stand up and speak his mind.

- There is little doubt that the public at large is getting more angry about corruption by ealizing that the massive amounts of Baht raked off should be spent on infrastructure and es pecially to upgrade many aspects of education. Also uUniversity students are becoming more vocal about stopping corruption. My son was recently telling me about an angry protest at his university in regard to spening of many many millions on oppulance for the dean's office, when many of the classroom buildings are basically falling dow. The students in fact 'won' and they hve been promised no further funds will be allocated to this cause.

- Ona very different angle, a very large percentage of 'politicians' pay large to very large deposits to buy their way into 'the club', so that they then have 'rights' to get the dirty grubby hands into budget pots. These people who have paid their large deposits are not going to walk away empty handed, in fact there's a strong possibility they will dig deep and fast, just in case the 'process' changes and they don't get their 'share' before the axe falls..

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Somtow's article was an excellent read.

Well done to him

I read both arguments. I had earlier dipped in to the Amsterdam Report, but only enough to pick up some general topics. That view of the Report was enough to convince me, as it obviously did Somtow, that Amsterdam too obviously leaves out too much that would harm his client. There is also a lot that is glossed over with just the briefest of mention - Thaksin's Shin Corporation shenanigans, his treatment of the Muslim insurgency in the south, the so-called war on drugs, selective omission of facts in the Red Shirt demonstrations earlier this year etc. Given that Thaksin must have paid Amsterdam a huge fee for the Report, that in itself inevitably casts doubt on its veracity and allegedly unbiased viewpoint. Get one fact wrong or omit another crucial one, and you cast doubt on the whole exercise.

That said, it is in some ways unfortunate, because there clearly is a lot in the Report that is both useful and constructive - to use the phrase coined by Margaret Thatcher and the Chinese to describe their marathon talks over the future of Hong Kong. But if I were Thaksin I'd have found a better use for my dwindling cash.

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This last sentense of the OP says it all

"Say what you will about Mr Thaksin, but if the current government had "trusted the people" as much as he has consistently been willing to, the hundred men and women who died because Mr Abhisit did not feel sufficiently confident in his electoral prospects would still be alive today."

This sound like an opinion rather than the truth, close to wishfull thinking and somewhat convoluted.

The 100 people who died because K. Abhisit felt less confident would still be alive if the government has 'trusted the people'. Died because of this, be alive because of that? What logic here?

I don't think anyone can prove that the government did or didn't trust 'the people', nor that K. Thaksin did or didn't. It's also the first time I hear K. Abhisit didn't feel sufficiently confident AND this being used as explanation of those 91 dead.

If only one sentence can be analyzed and commented on, image reading all 75 pages thoroughly. Well not me, I have a life, other things to do. This nice paper reminds my of MacBeth "It's a story told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"

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Mr Somtow's criticism of the white Paper reminds me of the Gordian knot - it doesn't pick at the threads, it cuts it to pieces by pointing out what it is; a wordy piece of self-serving crap full of half truths, avoided issues and obfuscations. If it wasn't so spot on, Amsterdam would have ignored it.

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The adjective "slimy" seems to be further indication of cases of psychological projection. However, this ad hominem doesn't really seem to get at any of the points and questions raised in the document.

Inability to address facts and hiding behind fallacies of logic = Par for the course in the new Thailand - worked the same under Bush in the USA and it is now on Abhisit's political menu in Thailand.

I mean really, why waste time and energy to argue when your political powers come out of the barrel of a very famous quote by Mao Zedong?

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The adjective "slimy" seems to be further indication of cases of psychological projection. However, this ad hominem doesn't really seem to get at any of the points and questions raised in the document.

Inability to address facts and hiding behind fallacies of logic = Par for the course in the new Thailand - worked the same under Bush in the USA and it is now on Abhisit's political menu in Thailand.

I mean really, why waste time and energy to argue when your political powers come out of the barrel of a very famous quote by Mao Zedong?

1st para: correct, it reflects on the individual called Robert A.

2nd para: utter nonsense, don't know what you are talking about. If still on the same document I assume you like to point out it's lack of facts and hiding behind fallacies ?

3rd para: to waste time and energy to argue seems part of this funny system called 'democracy'. Political powers can come out of real barrels, but 'the barrel of a very famous quote'? Please tell me which quote, Mao had a whole red book full of them.

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Amsterdam's whole career is built on creating lies, fabrications, internet creations and memes for his clients. That is all anyone needs to know. Period.

Glad to see you are taking a broad civilised view in the spirit of genuine inquiry.Actually Amsterdam wiped the floor with poor old Somtow whose Eton/Cambridge brain has probably atrophied in Thailand's intellectually stultifying atmosphere where fairy tales are taken at face value.Both contributions were loaded cases, but that's fair enough.Amsterdam like most PR men is not my cup of tea but your summary of his career is ridiculous.He is taken seriously for example by the admirable Charlie Rose (who can be seen on Bloomberg now, a rare oasis of civilised discussion on the telly)

Still it's sad to see you in this mode - not the fair minded person I remember.Are you really comfortable to be in the company of the feral posters with their inane bleating "two legs bad four legs good" approach?

Charlie Rose has a tendency to be sycophantic and hardly critical, a bit like your own position re defending Thaksin's Gang really.

Edited by yoshiwara
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So far no one has been able to counter anything but emotional and fictional blah blah against Robert Amsterdam's White Paper.

I read the Whole document very carefully and I must say that this is an excellent piece of work, well written and sticking to verifiable facts. His call for a truly independent panel of experts to investigate the truth is THE ONLY WAY to initiate true reconciliation in Thailand. I wished that at least one single person in the sitting government would have the intelligence of the people who were writing this document.

I know that I will be flamed for my opinion and instead of real facts and arguments and calls for the truth there will only be stupid emotional attacks.

Guess what? I don't care...and I will not answer on this topic again - enough said.

Not sure why he answered in the first place.

My money says his mind was made up and then he read the white paper.

Having all his assumptions proven with half facts legal manipulation of terms which had nothing to do with the atrocity of the actual events. He found it not necessary to read.

Somtow's Article

I myself am not a lawer and can not imagine wading through 75 pages of a lawers writing. Particularly when the Lawer is hired to make some one look good. I particularly liked in his response that corruption has gotten worse sense Thaksin left office. I really don't know where he gets that fact. However if one stops and thinks about it, it does have a seed of truth to it. After all one can only be so corrupt time does not allow for more. But when that individual is gone it allows more people in and as a group they can do far more corruption than one man who would not allow them to encroach on his private domain. Let us not forget that it was Thaksins puppets who eventualy replaced him. You will notice that Robert Amsterdam's does not place the starting time for the increase in corruption as the time Abhisit took over. Just speculation but there is always the possibility that it has decreased under the Abhisit regime. I don't know what the facts are but I post it to show just some of the ways Amsterdam's article can be misleading. And I am not even a lawyer and I can see through that.

Here's another analysis about coruption;

- Abhisit has said many times already that he will take action to stop corruption. He demanded that his coalition partners put the brakes on their bus deal and from what I understand the 'rake offf' factor has been reduced massively. This is a first, an absolute first for a sitting Pm to take on his coalition partners, Ahbisit bit the bullet and did it, first ever for a PM in Thailand. Additionally Abhisit very quickly removed one of his own party when the guy got caught and Abhisit publicly castigated the guy. Again a first, Abhisit had the guts and the determination to stand up and speak his mind.

- There is little doubt that the public at large is getting more angry about corruption by realizing that the massive amounts of Baht raked off should be spent on infrastructure and especially to upgrade many aspects of education. Also University students are becoming more vocal about stopping corruption. My son was recently telling me about an angry protest at his university in regard to spending of many many millions on opulence for the dean's office, when many of the classroom buildings are basically falling down. The students in fact 'won' and they have been promised no further funds will be allocated to this cause.

- On a very different angle, a very large percentage of 'politicians' pay large to very large deposits to buy their way into 'the club', so that they then have 'rights' to get the dirty grubby hands into budget pots. These people who have paid their large deposits are not going to walk away empty handed, in fact there's a strong possibility they will dig deep and fast, just in case the 'process' changes and they don't get their 'share' before the axe falls..

As usual a very astute summation.

The worry is that those that have paid for position, will indeed, and In deeds, be quite will do do anything

it takes to realize their investment to get closer to the trough and not accept the net loss.

It has been amazing to watch Abhisit square off against his own partners when the over reach,

the police pay for position SOP practices, and the entrenched education bureaucracies.

These are in general the main problems for the country, and he has taken hard to win position on these issues

with some success, and more than some making of new enemies in the process. From those same profiteers

who don't want their personal golden geese stunted in growth and egg laying futures foreshortened.

I can't blame them for feeling that way, but also can't see how their hopes can be allowed to be realized

in the long run if Thailand is to go forward for ALL Thai's not just those with connections, and co-joined

moral deficits, to continue to cream off the profits at the expense of all their fellow countrymen.

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...meanwhile, in typical Red fashion...

Somtow gets police protection after hate mails

By The Nation

Published on August 3, 2010

Hate mails threatening to pour his blood at the Rajprasong intersection and kill all his family members have prompted police to provide protection to renowned conductor/novelist Somtow Sucharitkul.

The messages were sent in response to his recent articles responding to Thaksin Shinawatra's lawyer Robert Amsterdam after the latter issued a "White Paper" on Thailand's political crisis.

Somtow said he never thought his well-intended articles about Thai politics would provoke such hate mails. He said people who knew him, including Asean Secretary-General Surin Pitsuwan, were alarmed by the very strong wording in the mails, and police who were shown the messages agreed to increase surveillance around his house.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/08/03/politics/Somtow-gets-police-protection-after-hate-mails-30135109.html

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Say what you will about Mr Thaksin, but if the current government had "trusted the people" as much as he has consistently been willing to, the hundred men and women who died because Mr Abhisit did not feel sufficiently confident in his electoral prospects would still be alive today.

As would be the witness in a case against Thaksin in Chang Mai some years ago who was murdered just prior to the trial of Thaksin which was then cancelled and all charges dropped due to, ''lack of evidence.''

As would a large number of innocent men women and children who were slaughtered in the ,''war on drugs,'' instigated by Thaksin without any person being subjected to the due course of law, only the rule of lynch law.

As would be a prominent Muslim lawyer too, that is just the tip of the iceberg of Thaksins abuse of the Thai people

Amsterdam you should go back under the stone and into the primeval sludge you and your kind belong to, nasty little money grubbing maggots who delight in profiteering from the misery of others , Amsterdam you failed in Russia you are a born again distorter of the truth who is possibly one of the worlds leading con artists.

- 2005: His client, Mikhail Khodorkovsky is sentenced |to 8 years in prison.

- 2005: Arrested in Moscow on September 22nd, he is forced to leave the country.

- August 2008: His request |to gain Khodorkovsky's |freedom is rejected.

- May 2010: Hired as international counsel to former PM Thaksin Shinawatra.

Thaksin has a brief with a track record like that, well he doesn't need enemies does he !!!

I do not understand why you dislike only Thaksin you point out his drug war, and 2 allegations, there could be many more we do not know about. siam polee does that mean a politician and you are on an opposing party? why do you not dislike Abhisit and some of his cronies for their shortcomings in the murder of the Rohingya, the assisted murder of Hmong and slaughter of protesters and the many many missing and injured on those occasions. Neither of these people have anything to be proud of. Then you could also include the neglect of both of these people and their predecessors of the police force and other agencies, that allow so many unsolved murders and unneccessary road deaths etc. IMHO the scorecard of both these men should be zero but both are horrendous.

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As usual a very astute summation.

The worry is that those that have paid for position, will indeed, and In deeds, be quite will do do anything

it takes to realize their investment to get closer to the trough and not accept the net loss.

It has been amazing to watch Abhisit square off against his own partners when the over reach,

the police pay for position SOP practices, and the entrenched education bureaucracies.

These are in general the main problems for the country, and he has taken hard to win position on these issues

with some success, and more than some making of new enemies in the process. From those same profiteers

who don't want their personal golden geese stunted in growth and egg laying futures foreshortened.

I can't blame them for feeling that way, but also can't see how their hopes can be allowed to be realized

in the long run if Thailand is to go forward for ALL Thai's not just those with connections, and co-joined

moral deficits, to continue to cream off the profits at the expense of all their fellow countrymen.

Mostly what you say is quite correct. Abhisit may have had some success in some of the big contracts, but the other people are paying 3 times as much to collect what they have lost at the top end.

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Say what you will about Mr Thaksin, but if the current government had "trusted the people" as much as he has consistently been willing to, the hundred men and women who died because Mr Abhisit did not feel sufficiently confident in his electoral prospects would still be alive today.

As would be the witness in a case against Thaksin in Chang Mai some years ago who was murdered just prior to the trial of Thaksin which was then cancelled and all charges dropped due to, ''lack of evidence.''

As would a large number of innocent men women and children who were slaughtered in the ,''war on drugs,'' instigated by Thaksin without any person being subjected to the due course of law, only the rule of lynch law.

As would be a prominent Muslim lawyer too, that is just the tip of the iceberg of Thaksins abuse of the Thai people

Amsterdam you should go back under the stone and into the primeval sludge you and your kind belong to, nasty little money grubbing maggots who delight in profiteering from the misery of others , Amsterdam you failed in Russia you are a born again distorter of the truth who is possibly one of the worlds leading con artists.

- 2005: His client, Mikhail Khodorkovsky is sentenced |to 8 years in prison.

- 2005: Arrested in Moscow on September 22nd, he is forced to leave the country.

- August 2008: His request |to gain Khodorkovsky's |freedom is rejected.

- May 2010: Hired as international counsel to former PM Thaksin Shinawatra.

Thaksin has a brief with a track record like that, well he doesn't need enemies does he !!!

I do not understand why you dislike only Thaksin you point out his drug war, and 2 allegations, there could be many more we do not know about. siam polee does that mean a politician and you are on an opposing party? why do you not dislike Abhisit and some of his cronies for their shortcomings in the murder of the Rohingya, the assisted murder of Hmong and slaughter of protesters and the many many missing and injured on those occasions. Neither of these people have anything to be proud of. Then you could also include the neglect of both of these people and their predecessors of the police force and other agencies, that allow so many unsolved murders and unneccessary road deaths etc. IMHO the scorecard of both these men should be zero but both are horrendous.

One of the differences between K. Thaksin and K. Abhisit is that the first has gone on record whereas the other seems more like a victim of his own party. Furthermore K. Abhisit has never gone on record for 'slaughter of protesters'. Some of your comments may be true, but have nothing to contribute in this post on Robert A's 75 page paper.

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Actually, it is not relevant all what we on this forum think about Robert Amsterdam. What is relevant is how international opinion and the international courts view his comments.

The comments on this forum are just white noise

Simon

TVF is part of, and may influence other, international opinion.

But what do the international courts care about his comments? No international courts are dealing with any Thai issues, are they?

Unfortunately not, there is a former political leader and a current political leader and his sidekick would more than likely be sharing a jail cell after the trial.

:)

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Amsterdam's whole career is built on creating lies, fabrications, internet creations and memes for his clients. That is all anyone needs to know. Period.

Glad to see you are taking a broad civilised view in the spirit of genuine inquiry.Actually Amsterdam wiped the floor with poor old Somtow whose Eton/Cambridge brain has probably atrophied in Thailand's intellectually stultifying atmosphere where fairy tales are taken at face value.Both contributions were loaded cases, but that's fair enough.Amsterdam like most PR men is not my cup of tea but your summary of his career is ridiculous.He is taken seriously for example by the admirable Charlie Rose (who can be seen on Bloomberg now, a rare oasis of civilised discussion on the telly)

Still it's sad to see you in this mode - not the fair minded person I remember.Are you really comfortable to be in the company of the feral posters with their inane bleating "two legs bad four legs good" approach?

Beg to differ. Not only is he being fair but he is also being generous. Why does that bother you?

IMO He is wrong about Amsterdam he should have said a lawyer's whole carreer is built on creating lies, fabrication, twisting facts...... etc. And IMO you could include politicians. The article by novelist tsow is exactly a humorous twisting of facts to give people a laugh of this difficult situation, mimicking a lawyer or politician.

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UPDATE

SOMTWO-AMSTERDAM SHOWDOWN

Somtow gets police protection after hate mails

By The Nation

gallery_327_1086_6701.jpg

Somtow

Hate mails threatening to pour his blood at the Rajprasong intersection and kill all his family members have prompted police to provide protection to renowned conductor/novelist Somtow Sucharitkul.

The messages were sent in response to his recent articles responding to Thaksin Shinawatra's lawyer Robert Amsterdam after the latter issued a "White Paper" on Thailand's political crisis.

Somtow said he never thought his well-intended articles about Thai politics would provoke such hate mails. He said people who knew him, including Asean Secretary-General Surin Pitsuwan, were alarmed by the very strong wording in the mails, and police who were shown the messages agreed to increase surveillance around his house.

nationlogo.jpg

-- The Nation 2010-08-03

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Actually, it is not relevant all what we on this forum think about Robert Amsterdam. What is relevant is how international opinion and the international courts view his comments.

The comments on this forum are just white noise

Simon

TVF is part of, and may influence other, international opinion.

But what do the international courts care about his comments? No international courts are dealing with any Thai issues, are they?

Unfortunately not, there is a former political leader and a current political leader and his sidekick would more than likely be sharing a jail cell after the trial.

:)

After what trial?

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UPDATE

SOMTWO-AMSTERDAM SHOWDOWN

Somtow gets police protection after hate mails

By The Nation

gallery_327_1086_6701.jpg

Somtow

Hate mails threatening to pour his blood at the Rajprasong intersection and kill all his family members have prompted police to provide protection to renowned conductor/novelist Somtow Sucharitkul.

The messages were sent in response to his recent articles responding to Thaksin Shinawatra's lawyer Robert Amsterdam after the latter issued a "White Paper" on Thailand's political crisis.

Somtow said he never thought his well-intended articles about Thai politics would provoke such hate mails. He said people who knew him, including Asean Secretary-General Surin Pitsuwan, were alarmed by the very strong wording in the mails, and police who were shown the messages agreed to increase surveillance around his house.

nationlogo.jpg

-- The Nation 2010-08-03

The above shows the fundimental difference between the supporters of the two sides of this, shall we say, disagreement.

Those who support Somtow's right to answer a paid employee of Thaksin, it would appear, do not see the need to issue threats.

Yet those who support Thaksin see fit to threaten the life and the family of anyone who publicly speaks out against him.

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Amsterdam's whole career is built on creating lies, fabrications, internet creations and memes for his clients. That is all anyone needs to know. Period.

Glad to see you are taking a broad civilised view in the spirit of genuine inquiry.Actually Amsterdam wiped the floor with poor old Somtow whose Eton/Cambridge brain has probably atrophied in Thailand's intellectually stultifying atmosphere where fairy tales are taken at face value.Both contributions were loaded cases, but that's fair enough.Amsterdam like most PR men is not my cup of tea but your summary of his career is ridiculous.He is taken seriously for example by the admirable Charlie Rose (who can be seen on Bloomberg now, a rare oasis of civilised discussion on the telly)

Still it's sad to see you in this mode - not the fair minded person I remember.Are you really comfortable to be in the company of the feral posters with their inane bleating "two legs bad four legs good" approach?

Charlie Rose has a tendency to be sycophantic and hardly critical, a bit like your own position re defending Thaksin's Gang really.

Ignoring your tired insult, you have a point on Charlie Rose though sycophantic is rather unfair.However he is civilised and intelligent and the softly softly approach can be deceptive.For example the arrogant and intelligent, though not I think very civilised, Prime Minister of Singapore recently made himself look a complete idiot on the show.Perhaps Thaksin will submit himself to be interviewed one day.

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This last sentense of the OP says it all

"Say what you will about Mr Thaksin, but if the current government had "trusted the people" as much as he has consistently been willing to, the hundred men and women who died because Mr Abhisit did not feel sufficiently confident in his electoral prospects would still be alive today."

This sound like an opinion rather than the truth, close to wishfull thinking and somewhat convoluted.

The 100 people who died because K. Abhisit felt less confident would still be alive if the government has 'trusted the people'. Died because of this, be alive because of that? What logic here?

I don't think anyone can prove that the government did or didn't trust 'the people', nor that K. Thaksin did or didn't. It's also the first time I hear K. Abhisit didn't feel sufficiently confident AND this being used as explanation of those 91 dead.

If only one sentence can be analyzed and commented on, image reading all 75 pages thoroughly. Well not me, I have a life, other things to do. This nice paper reminds my of MacBeth "It's a story told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"

I am sick of reading that 100 people died because of Abhisit. Khun Abhisit had offered the reds a deal long before the dispersal of the reds. If they had accepted this then the events in May would not have happened. However, the reds did not accept the deal because they were (as subsequent events have shown) looking for violence - in other words they were spoiling for a fight and our PM showed the utmost restraint - even, I suspect, in the face of some opposition from his own side. Its strange is it not how people rewrite history to suit themselves. Amsterdam is a past master at that, but all he succeeds in doing is showing himself up to be a bit shallow. Most thinking people know what he's up to.

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