Thai PM Abhisit Demands Cambodians Leave Disputed Border Area

[animatic]

lao and Kmer

With a basis on much older sanskrit.

Likely this King instructed his scribes to codified 'common and official usages' of the local amalgam of languages,

and called it Thai... wait Thai didn't even exist... so must be Siamese. No matter what Wiki wants to say..

Saying he didn't personally create, from thin air, a complete language and written codex, doesn't diminish

the Kings greatness, it just shows his leadership was central to it's codification, and that

plus unifying a people is great enough accomplishment for any ruler.

The question of the stele's authenticity is touchy because national identity is so closely tied to it.

It of course in either time frame was 'an object used for unification' of disparate regional groups

into one, under one leader and regional hierarch. Often easier done with a religious component

and 'historical artifacts' used as central icons of identity and control; such as this stele and Buddhism.

Edited August 16, 2010 by animatic

[Deeral]

lao and Kmer

With a basis on much older sanskrit.

Likely this King instructed his scribes to codified 'common and official usages' of the local amalgam of languages,

and called it Thai... wait Thai didn't even exist... so must be Siamese. No matter what Wiki wants to say..

Saying he didn't personally create, from thin air, a complete language and written codex, doesn't diminish

the Kings greatness, it just shows his leadership was central to it's codification, and that

plus unifying a people is great enough accomplishment for any ruler.

The question of the stele's authenticity is touchy because national identity is so closely tied to it.

It of course in either time frame was 'an object used for unification' of disparate regional groups

into one, under one leader and regional hierarch. Often easier done with a religious component

and 'historical artifacts' used as central icons of identity and control; such as this stele and Buddhism.

...and the population at the time?

[animatic]

lao and Kmer

With a basis on much older sanskrit.

Likely this King instructed his scribes to codified 'common and official usages' of the local amalgam of languages,

and called it Thai... wait Thai didn't even exist... so must be Siamese. No matter what Wiki wants to say..

Saying he didn't personally create, from thin air, a complete language and written codex, doesn't diminish

the Kings greatness, it just shows his leadership was central to it's codification, and that

plus unifying a people is great enough accomplishment for any ruler.

The question of the stele's authenticity is touchy because national identity is so closely tied to it.

It of course in either time frame was 'an object used for unification' of disparate regional groups

into one, under one leader and regional hierarch. Often easier done with a religious component

and 'historical artifacts' used as central icons of identity and control; such as this stele and Buddhism.

...and the population at the time?

Obviously much smaller.

And comprising an amalgam of all the regions various cultures,

their decedents from captives of battles, and travelers leaving

their 'seed' stock over time.

And of course no ONE time is being specified clearly.

One thing Siam always was, was a crossroads of dozens of cultures,

all inter weaved and not easy to combine as one and only one...

as proved by yet another outburst of regional solidarity against

central authority that doesn't accept differentiation as normal.

Which is part and parcel of the uber-nationalism needed to mold

one people from many.

Edited August 16, 2010 by animatic

[Deeral]

lao and Kmer

With a basis on much older sanskrit.

Likely this King instructed his scribes to codified 'common and official usages' of the local amalgam of languages,

and called it Thai... wait Thai didn't even exist... so must be Siamese. No matter what Wiki wants to say..

Saying he didn't personally create, from thin air, a complete language and written codex, doesn't diminish

the Kings greatness, it just shows his leadership was central to it's codification, and that

plus unifying a people is great enough accomplishment for any ruler.

The question of the stele's authenticity is touchy because national identity is so closely tied to it.

It of course in either time frame was 'an object used for unification' of disparate regional groups

into one, under one leader and regional hierarch. Often easier done with a religious component

and 'historical artifacts' used as central icons of identity and control; such as this stele and Buddhism.

...and the population at the time?

Obviously much smaller.

And comprising an amalgam of all the regions various cultures,

their decedents from captives of battles, and travelers leaving

their 'seed' stock over time.

And of course no ONE time is being specified clearly.

One thing Siam always was, was a crossroads of dozens of cultures,

all inter weaved and not easy to combine as one and only one...

as proved by yet another outburst of regional solidarity against

central authority that doesn't accept differentiation as normal.

Which is part and parcel of the uber-nationalism needed to mold

one people from many.

in other words a multicultural town on the edge of an uninhabited jungle.

[chantorn]

I disagree that Siam was a crossroads of dozens of cultures. I think it is otherwise.

Farang did not colonize Siam was not a coincident.

There was nothing of interest here (in comparison to Siam's neighbor) at that time.

[Deeral]

I disagree that Siam was a crossroads of dozens of cultures. I think it is otherwise.

Farang did not colonize Siam was not a coincident.

There was nothing of interest here (in comparison to Siam's neighbor) at that time.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here - it wasn't particularly Western cultures - I think you'll find it was more "Tai" Chinese, Mon Kmer, Malay even etcWas not the region - the Chao Phraya basin? - a collection of city states linked/connected by rivers or sea - the mountains and forests being pretty much impenetrable?whereas I'm sure that there is evidence of a "thai" script in the early 13th century, I would be if there is any real evidence to link it to a single monarch.

european history, which has a lot more evidence and research behind it would find any comparable definitive assertion very difficult.

[Piengrudee]

If you look at the map. Anyone from the West will have to sail round Singapore. From there, the shortest route to China is straight to HK, maybe a stop in Saigon. It does not make sense to do a stop in Bangkok or the Chao Phraya basin. Hence all other important places colonized first, not Siam. By the time they arrived, it was almost the end of an era, hence not much interest left. Look at today's commercial shipping route. Same same. Not many ship visit Thailand. They head straight from Singapore to Hong Kong. Most cargo for Thailand will have to trans-ship in these 2 locations.

[Deeral]

If you look at the map. Anyone from the West will have to sail round Singapore. From there, the shortest route to China is straight to HK, maybe a stop in Saigon. It does not make sense to do a stop in Bangkok or the Chao Phraya basin. Hence all other important places colonized first, not Siam. By the time they arrived, it was almost the end of an era, hence not much interest left. Look at today's commercial shipping route. Same same. Not many ship visit Thailand. They head straight from Singapore to Hong Kong. Most cargo for Thailand will have to trans-ship in these 2 locations.

i don't follow your argument.What era are you referring to?

Bangkok di not exist at the time of Sukhotai.An Europeans were trading with "siam" as a region from the 17th centuryThe indians, Persians Chinese and Europeans weren't looking for places to "stop off" they were looking to trade (or for anything they could lay their hands on for that matter)

[Piengrudee]

"Thai PM Abhisit Demands Cambodians Leave Disputed Border Area". Any luck so far?

[seri thai]

Don't be such a skeptic on our great King. Please I beg you.

Khun Piengrudee,

I don't intend or wish to get into a les-majeste discussion here but you must be aware of discussion and disagreement between eminent thai scholars on this issue. As a fahrang I am curious as to why some thai people feel the need or perceive a threat to the integrity of the nation whenever people undertake open discussion on historical questions. Are you repeating something you are taught as a pavlovian reaction or is your response/plea a thought out reply with a grounding in some archaeological evidence you personally have?

I am fully aware that human beings tend to cling to the belief system promulgated by their societies (witness fundamentalist christian views on "intelligent design" or fundamentalist muslim views on that and many other things besides)

It is one thing to express a religious belief in supernatural events in the dim and distant past (though my personal opinion based on scientific evidence or lack of it is that religious belief in the supernatural is primitive and foolish. It is another thing to cling to one version of an historical event when it may be open to interpretation, discussion or even conflicting evidence.

In the case of King Ramkhamhaeng it doesn't really matter whether he did the things he is held to have done. What is more important is that King Mongkut put forward an idealised expectation of the past (Like Arthurian Legend in the west) as an example of what Thais should be proud of. If successive regimes in Thailand are able in the future to bring about reconciliation and live a Lanna/Sukothai ideal corruption free, that will be prgress indeed.

(I wont be holding my breath, though.)

What I am saying is the teaching of the truth of anideal is fine,laudible and self-evident. The historical truth of it is not important and should not require blind faith or need your emotional defence.

Edited August 19, 2010 by seri thai

[hammered]

All countries without exception have a mix of "true history" (it is unlikely that really exists in reality) and myths associated with it and teaches it through education systems to ensure the people learn it. It is all to do with the establishment of the nation state that was needed for certain economic purposes under a certain system

Today though the nation state is the basic block of cultural/societal contact and hence the maintaining of the nation state, and occasionally when the powerful states deem it necessry, the creation of a new one form some subdivision, is paramount.

True of any country anyone cares to name although usually those who hail form the ocuntry being discussed take umbrage at any suggestion of this.

The history of societies and cultures themselves is a very different matter and one that the harsh world ignores or represses.

[Deeral]

All countries without exception have a mix of "true history" (it is unlikely that really exists in reality) and myths associated with it and teaches it through education systems to ensure the people learn it. It is all to do with the establishment of the nation state that was needed for certain economic purposes under a certain system

Today though the nation state is the basic block of cultural/societal contact and hence the maintaining of the nation state, and occasionally when the powerful states deem it necessry, the creation of a new one form some subdivision, is paramount.

True of any country anyone cares to name although usually those who hail form the ocuntry being discussed take umbrage at any suggestion of this.

The history of societies and cultures themselves is a very different matter and one that the harsh world ignores or represses.

I couldn't agree more - (as would Baker and Phongpaichit) - but what does differ from country to country is the mix of "true" (or scholarly?) history and cultural and political myth making.

The USSR was always the butt of jokes about made up history, but I find that USA and Australia have had periods of huge denials and "creativity" when it comes to history - Thailand unfortunately must be regarded as a country where an analytical or critical account of history is next to nothing. Only now are historians beginning to look at Thai history with any sense of objectivity and sadly this is often muzzled or restrained under the draconian censorship laws of Thailand....so there is still a long way to go even before the basics of Thai history are re-assessed.

[whybother]

<snip>

The USSR was always the butt of jokes about made up history, but I find that USA and Australia have had periods of huge denials and "creativity" when it comes to history - <snip>

Examples please ... (although it is getting a bit OT).

[Deeral]

<snip> The USSR was always the butt of jokes about made up history, but I find that USA and Australia have had periods of huge denials and "creativity" when it comes to history - <snip>

Examples please ... (although it is getting a bit OT).

No! - if you don't know, do your research - this is a website a chat forum - if you really don't know what I'm talking about then get an education or just pass it over it.

I get really fed up when someone seems to think they are clever by posting a glib " give examples" when in ruth they really haven't a clue what the conversation is about and it would take about 20000 words to sort them out.

Suffice it to say if you think I'm wrong you are probably the result f the kind of brainwashing that "nation states" use to control their populace.

[whybother]

<snip> The USSR was always the butt of jokes about made up history, but I find that USA and Australia have had periods of huge denials and "creativity" when it comes to history - <snip>

Examples please ... (although it is getting a bit OT).

No! - if you don't know, do your research - this is a website a chat forum - if you really don't know what I'm talking about then get an education or just pass it over it.

I get really fed up when someone seems to think they are clever by posting a glib " give examples" when in ruth they really haven't a clue what the conversation is about and it would take about 20000 words to sort them out.

Suffice it to say if you think I'm wrong you are probably the result f the kind of brainwashing that "nation states" use to control their populace.

I'm not trying to be clever. You're right - I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Hence the question, and a fairly simple question, I thought!

What am I supposed to research? You come up with this broad statement of "huge denials and creativity" ... and I have no idea what you are talking about, so I can't say whether you are wrong or not.

I was educated in Australia, so maybe I am a victim of your supposed "brain washing". I can't really do anything about that unless I have an idea of what I need to research.

I'm not asking for links or proof and I'm not asking you to write 20000 words to describe what you're talking about. A couple of words for each instance (seeing as you are talking about several "periods") would suffice. Then I can do the research on it.

[elcent]

What is this all about? ET? The never ending story?

Both countries should give up a little more land and make it an independent micro-state like San Marino in Italy. - Bingo! Problems solved.

I really expected the PM of Thailand to be a bit smarter, instead it turned out that he has proven to be the real army spokesman and not PM.

[seri thai]

If you need a postal degree in history from the University of Wallaballoo

www.google.com

enter: Russia+revisionism

mines a Singha

[Piengrudee]

Both countries should give up a little more land and make it an independent micro-state like San Marino in Italy? Sorry, both countries are not prepared to loosing even a square inch. Get it!

[whybother]

If you need a postal degree in history from the University of Wallaballoo

www.google.com

enter: Russia+revisionism

mines a Singha

Deeral indicated that Australia "had periods of huge denials and creativity when it comes to history" so I was looking for examples of Australian revisionism.

[animatic]

Most all countries certainly write their own histories, and newer scholars search old volumes

looking for trends for an against the accepted historical facts. Corroboration balanced with dissenting views.

Some is based on politically modern viewpoint, and can be described as 'modern revisionism',

and others are clearly doing their best to find; WHY the currently 'masses accepted history' came to be,

and what the logical alternatives could combine to be, based on alternate or formerly supressed sources.

All in all this is one of the more lucid, thoughtful and troll-less threads in recent TVF history,

and I applaud most all for their participation.

Edited August 19, 2010 by animatic

[animatic]

If you need a postal degree in history from the University of Wallaballoo

www.google.com

enter: Russia+revisionism

mines a Singha

Deeral indicated that Australia "had periods of huge denials and creativity when it comes to history" so I was looking for examples of Australian revisionism.

Well from afar,

the history of the aboriginals, leaves some doubts for the external viewer.

And some versions of external participation's in world wars has seen some changes in perspective.

[elcent]

Both countries should give up a little more land and make it an independent micro-state like San Marino in Italy? Sorry, both countries are not prepared to loosing even a square inch. Get it!

Then they better get prepared for this.

This cheap diverting show is more than insulting especially for the local communities who must live in fear in that area and to millions others from afar as well..

An Independence micro state has advantages for all parties and the local communities and no disadvantage for anybody. Call it enrichment. Doing the math seems to be a problem, reading a map seems even a bigger problem.

It would/will create great prosperity in that region where all get a part from the cake. It also works then as a buffer zone which enhances security for both sides.

In order for getting something one must give something.

[chantorn]

Vote PAD into power, and they can solve the problem. They already have a solution, like void the MOU, push out the invaders, take back our temple, etc.

[Deeral]

Vote PAD into power, and they can solve the problem. They already have a solution, like void the MOU, push out the invaders, take back our temple, etc.

Ah! war with Cambodia - good idea.....not!!!

[Deeral]

The only people the Thai army seem to fight and win are its own citizens

[seri thai]

Vote PAD into power, and they can solve the problem. They already have a solution, like void the MOU, push out the invaders, take back our temple, etc.

I really do appreciate the comments from the PAD side of the spectrum to this thread debate but can I request that they provide some objective, context and back up for their contributions instead of the "We/I are/am right, don't question my statements, death to Cambodia rhetoric? As Animatic has said it is one of the more mature discussions on here and I'd like to keep it that way.

Khun Chantorn/Khun Piengrudee I really want to hear your opinions but can you back them up with anything other than a threat of les-majeste? It is a generally accepted internet debating principle that you have lost an argument if you have to bring up comparisons with Hitler. I think this should apply to any attempt to hide behind nationalist rhetoric or the imposition of a nationalist ban on freedom of speech. (Even if it is in the interests of "National-ist Security")

[seri thai]

Both countries should give up a little more land and make it an independent micro-state like San Marino in Italy? Sorry, both countries are not prepared to loosing even a square inch. Get it!

In the interests of open discussion and debate, can you exercise a little buddhist mindfulness and share with us what you think the reasons and causes for this attitude?

[Deeral]

"Both countries should give up a little more land and make it an independent micro-state like San Marino in Italy? Sorry, both countries are not prepared to loosing even a square inch. Get it!" - so this is another one of your full stops?

[SamritT]

Use the new Swedish planes to bomb the hel_l of of the 4.6 sq km?

[seri thai]

All,

Be it here known I've taken down my much loved Denny Crane ironic/iconic image and replaced it with cute but dim Betty Draper from "Mad Men". Partly because she is more attractive than "Big Bill" Shatner but also because people with pretty women pictures seem to get away with the more outrageous comments at Thaivisa without being flamed.

So please give a big, Thaivisa welcome to "Betty" and afford her the opportunity to make shallow,pavlovian non-analytical posts without comment or analysis.

I thank you all in advance for your indulgence and understanding. (After all she's only a woman, bless her)