Beginners Thread?

[bifftastic]

Hi,

when I first joined TV I glanced briefly at the Thai language forum and quickly noticed that it was way way beyond my comprehension.

I, like many others I'm sure, began with spoken Thai and romanised transliterations, again, fairly quickly, realising that this was not the way forward. Tones, vowel length etc.

I find that after some studying I can now use the language forum more successfully and find it very interesting and useful, it's still daunting to read some of what you get into but I'm encouraged by my limited progress so far!

I was browsing through a thread (maybe one of the pinned ones, I'm not sure) and someone mentioned a 'beginners thread' as an idea. I thought about replying directly to that post but seeing as it was about five years old, I thought I'd ask about it in a new topic.

Would anyone be willing to help us beginners out with such a thread? I'm unsure as to what it might contain but here's a few ideas;

I'm currently struggling with things like, knowing which unwritten vowels to pronounce between consonants, getting to grips with the different sounds of consonants when used at the ends of words/syllables. I'm starting to read Thai but am wondering about spellings, for instance, there are so many different consonants that appear to create the same sound. do they, in fact, have slightly different sounds or are they duplicated for no particular reason?

The mist is beginning to clear but it's still pretty foggy out there!

Many of you will have already been through the problems I, and many others, are facing and perhaps would have a better understanding of the best ways to overcome them. Perhaps some of you would be willing to contribute?

Maybe the best way to start would be for people to jump in with a few ideas just to get the ball rolling?

It's hard to know what to suggest really. If I knew how to structure such a thread I probably wouldn't need it!

Maybe a few other beginners could share their current difficulties and some more scholarly individuals might be able to come up with some kind of a format which would help?

Your input and comments will be greatly appreciated.

Biff

p.s. just for information, I'm using 'Thai for Beginners' 'www.thai2english.com' (also using the downloaded version) some youtube Thai music vids with Thai subs, I've got some vowel and consonant vids on my phone and some more youtube vids of conversational Thai classes. When in Thailand I try to immerse myself in the TV news (brain tends to numb after 20 minutes or so!) and have no choice but to expose myself to Thai soaps and prime time television shows! (brain numbs pretty much right after the first 'boiiing!' sound)

[Lizard2010]

Biff

You are right about us beginners needing help.

But i feel it is as always that people have other things to do and forget or loose interest.

When using TV.

I do hope someone can help as im interested in learning when i have time.

[Tod Daniels]

Let me start by saying; by no means is my thai reading at a proficient level. This fact is evidenced by an existing post I made which other more learned thai readers said was about a ป.๔ (fourth grade) level. I do get by with things that interest me, just as if I am compelled to read a topic I have no interest in (like thai culture, tradition or history) my comprehension goes WAY DOWN .

I used thai songs, and TONZ of them to learn a lot of idiomatic expressions. Although you hafta be selective and early on try to stick with songs sung in bangkok thai (central thai; the official 'government approved version' of thai) instead of หมอลำ, ลูกทุ่ง, or songs sung in Issan, Lao, or Northern thai. I’d hear a song on the street ask a thai what it was and then come home to find it on You Tube. Then I’d either find the thai lyrics on a website or type the thai line by line off the song (a good way to teach yourself to type thai). After that I’d underline the words I didn’t know and start looking ‘em up, trying to guess the meaning of the sentence.

I've found for me, it all boiled down to memorization of thai words, and I mean hundreds and hundreds (really a coupla thousand) of them, to be able to get an idea of most things written in thai, even if the minutia eludes you.

Learning if it's an -ะ or a โ-ะ sound in between consonants was a tough one too. Again I just memorize the ones I come across routinely; (although there could be a thai language rule governing this that I am unaware of ).

The site thai-language dot com has quite a lot of stuff of interest. Here's an example;

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/consonants

Because the thai language is really a hodge-podge of MANY languages they needed to differentiate similarly sounding words by spelling, and some of the indic pali, sanskrit words which long ago were 'imported' into thai already had their own unique spelling which was used in the thai spelling. Factor in the HUGE number of engrish loan words popular in today's language and you've got a tough row to hoe, as far as getting a grasp of thai.

An example of two words which sound EXACTLY the same in spoken thai, yet have two completely different meanings is รถ (roht^H); car, vehicle, and รส (roht^H); of food, flavor or taste (usually said as รสชาติ). TOTALLY the same pronunciation in spoken thai discerned ONLY by context, but different in their spelling.

Once you make it past the transliteration or karaoke (thai written in engrish), and begin reading, the entire country opens up for you. Suddenly you're reading signs, adverts, menus, etc, and you notice 'short cut' signs on the streets (which your taxi driver thinks you can't read ), warnings about hazards at work sites, etc.

It has been a tough slog for me (and I've got a long way yet to go), but learning thai has been the endeavor which has provided me with the most 'bang-4-the-baht' here of anything I've undertaken.

Even if there is no dedicated beginners thread here, ask away, as sometimes the simplest questions garner the most interesting responses.

All I can say is DON'T give up, and DON'T EVER let learning thai get you down.

[LazyYogi]

I'm starting to read Thai but am wondering about spellings, for instance, there are so many different consonants that appear to create the same sound. do they, in fact, have slightly different sounds or are they duplicated for no particular reason?

They have the same sounds, but there is a reason for the duplication.

The Thai alphabet was based on the Sanskrit alphabet. A large part of the Thai vocabulary is made of Sanskrit loanwords. All these consonants are pronounced differently in Sanskrit, but Thai pronunciation does not distinguish between many of the sounds.

So, for example, the letters ฐ ฑ ฒ ถ ท ธ represent ṭh ḍ ḍh th d dh in Sanskrit, but in Thai they all have the sound "th".

If I'm also allowed a bit of shameless promotion, you might want to check out the material I've been helping put together at Thaipod101 (dotcom). We also have a YouTube channel and you can find all the podcast lessons by searching in iTunes as well. :jap:

[eric67]

Besides the reason stated above, I guess the main reason for duplicate consonants is that they usually belong to different consonant classes, so you can make more words using different tones.

For instance:

ซวย mid-tone, meaning unlucky

สวย rising tone, meaning beautiful

So if you only had the high class consonant ส you could only make words starting with an "s" that have a rising, low or falling tone.

But by adding the low class consonant ซ , you can make words that start with an "s" using all 5 tones.

Time to crack those darn tone rules again!!

[Peppy]

Even if there is no dedicated beginners thread here, ask away, as sometimes the simplest questions garner the most interesting responses.

I agree with Todd here--no need for a special thread, just start a new topic and you're bound to get some answers!

[bifftastic]

Thanks for all the input so far, very helpful.

I'm especially encouraged by the suggestion to just 'ask away' sometimes it can be a little daunting to ask what may be a 'beginners' question. Some of the threads in the language forum are pretty advanced, well they seem that way to me

Thanks for the pointers and the encouragement. I hope this encourages some others too

[bifftastic]

Learning if it's an -ะ or a โ-ะ sound in between consonants was a tough one too. Again I just memorize the ones I come across routinely; (although there could be a thai language rule governing this that I am unaware of ).

Is there a rule or is it just a case of recoginising whole words? I know in English there are rules but they don't apply to everything and we tend to 'see' a whole word rather than break it up into its component parts.

For instance the 'ough' part of rough, through, and thought, just doesn't make sense until you forget about breaking it down and just remember the words. Phonetically they'd be 'ruff'' 'throo' and 'thort'.

As for letting it get me down or giving up, I don't think that will happen, I find it fascinating and get really pleased with myself when I get a 'penny drops' moment

[Tod Daniels]

FWIW: some of the threads on here posted by more advanced members of the Thai Visa Language Forum leave me shaking my head, too. EVEN after I run the thai words I don’t know thru a translator or dictionary. So never ever let that be an impediment to asking anything.

As an aside; in my younger days when I ran training classes for an international company in the US, I would write on the whiteboard; “There is no such thing as a stupid question; only stupid people who ask questions.” Obviously it kept the questions to a minimum. It was meant more tongue in cheek, to set the tone of my classes rather than to stop genuine questions.

Now that I've 'tempered' some due to my age, I firmly believe; "The only stupid question; is one you don't ask."

Like I said earlier; often the simplest questions on here get the best and most insightful responses.

Ask away. ... ..

Edited August 18, 2010 by tod-daniels

[bifftastic]

With regard to the unwritten vowels, and consonant classes I found this site very useful http://phil.uk.net/t...utorial_12.html and this page particularly so.http://phil.uk.net/thailand/learn_to_read_thai_tutorial_14.html

Maybe others will too

Edited August 19, 2010 by bifftastic

[tgeezer]

Learning if it's an -ะ or a โ-ะ sound in between consonants was a tough one too. Again I just memorize the ones I come across routinely; (although there could be a thai language rule governing this that I am unaware of ).

Is there a rule or is it just a case of recoginising whole words? As for letting it get me down or giving up, I don't think that will happen, I find it fascinating and get really pleased with myself when I get a 'penny drops' moment

There are rules on everything but as with all rules in language they are often undermined by everyday use, and argued about endlessly on forums. IMO learning the words individually is the only sane way because even if you learn the theory, it is going to be lost if not constantly revised.

[bifftastic]

Learning if it's an -ะ or a โ-ะ sound in between consonants was a tough one too. Again I just memorize the ones I come across routinely; (although there could be a thai language rule governing this that I am unaware of ).

Is there a rule or is it just a case of recoginising whole words? As for letting it get me down or giving up, I don't think that will happen, I find it fascinating and get really pleased with myself when I get a 'penny drops' moment

There are rules on everything but as with all rules in language they are often undermined by everyday use, and argued about endlessly on forums. IMO learning the words individually is the only sane way because even if you learn the theory, it is going to be lost if not constantly revised.

yes, very good point. Theory is fine but practice makes perfect. Thank you

[eric67]

Taking into account that there are some exceptions, the basic rule is:

-If a syllable ends with a consonant the implicit vowel is a โ-ะ

-And in multi-syllable words, if a syllable ends with a vowel, it is an implicit -ะ

So for instance คน ends with a consonant, so the implicit vowel is a โ-ะ

And for a multi-syllable word like ถนน , which has 2 syllables, ถ and นน: the first syllable ends with a vowel, so that's an implicit -ะ. The second syllable ends with a consonant, so the implicit vowel here is a โ-ะ

The difficult thing (for me anyway) is how to correctly split up words in syllables, because sometimes a consonant is both the end consonant of 1 syllable and the initial consonant of the next, i.e. ผลไม้

And I still haven't figured out why a word like อร่อย has an implicit -ะ , and a word like อะไร hasn't

Well, if you use the basic rule above, at least you can make an educated guess

[Tod Daniels]

-If a syllable ends with a consonant the implicit vowel is a โ-ะ

-And in multi-syllable words, if a syllable ends with a vowel, it is an implicit -ะ

The difficult thing (for me anyway) is how to correctly split up words in syllables, because sometimes a consonant is both the end consonant of 1 syllable and the initial consonant of the next, i.e. ผลไม้

And I still haven't figured out why a word like อร่อย has an implicit -ะ , and a word like อะไร hasn't

Well, if you use the basic rule above, at least you can make an educated guess

Now we could be thinking along the same lines just looking at it differently, BUT:

I think for clarity (at least mine) your post should read like this

-If a syllable ends with a consonant the implicit vowel is a โ-ะ

So for instance คน ends with a consonant, so the implicit vowel is a โ-ะ

-And in multi-syllable words, if a syllable ends with a vowel, I believe you mean IF a syllable is a STAND ALONE CONSONANT, it carries an implicit -ะ as the UNWRITTEN but VOICED vowel sound.

For a multi-syllable word like ถนน , which has 2 syllables, ถ and นน: the first syllable ends with a vowel is a STAND ALONE CONSONANT, so that's an implicit -ะ. The second syllable ends with a consonant, so the implicit vowel here is a โ-ะ

At least I'm glad to see I'm not the only one unsure of how to split up an unfamiliar thai words, syllable by syllable. I agree it confuses the mix even further when there are two consonants in one syllable (which would an implied โ-ะ), BUT then the last consonant from the previous paired set, is ALSO a stand alone forming the next single consonant syllable with the implied -ะ.

Another thing I also have trouble with is; knowing when a การันต์ <-- (the symbol above the last letter in the previous word) cancels out more than one consonant at the end of a word. Interestingly enough, my wall chart doesn't list this symbol as การันต์; which is the colloquial name for the symbol, but as ทัณฑฆาต. When I looked it up, it means "execution by capital punishment", quite the fitting definition (especially as we are executing the sound of the letter it's over), so I guess looking at the definition, the official name is เครื่องหมายทัณฑฆาต. Although I dunno how many thais would know this; as I’ve only heard it referred to (even in thai language school) as การันต์.

Good thread, good topix too. ..

[RickBradford]

On a positive note.

Thai spelling is much more regular than English spelling - it's the big words from Pali and Sanskrit (and sometimes Khmer) which are the problem.

The big Greek and Latin words are a problem for people learning to read English - how would you pronounce 'psychology' if you'd never seen the word before? And only this evening I heard a Thai radio announcer reading English-language news referring to 'choh-LAIR-ra', the disease we pronounce as 'KO-ler-ra'.

But native English words are difficult -- tough, bough, cough, lough, though, through; crooked and booked; bury and busy.

My point is that to pronounce English words right, you have to have seen them in action, so to speak, and the same is true for Thai. There is no short-cut; read from as many sources as you can, as often as you can.

Mastering Thai script is the gift that keeps on giving, Less than 2 years ago, I couldn't read any Thai at all: I am now reading 'Gorky Park' in the Thai translation, and can read 95% of the words, understand maybe 60%, with the English version on hand for comparison, and it is proving a wonderful learning tool.

Edited August 20, 2010 by RickBradford

[tgeezer]

Learning if it's an -ะ or a โ-ะ sound in between consonants was a tough one too. Again I just memorize the ones I come across routinely;

One rule which is immutable is that if the closing sylable is ร then the missing vowel is 'อ' กร is pronounced กอน

[mangkorn]

One rule which is immutable is that if the closing sylable is ร then the missing vowel is 'อ' กร is pronounced กอน

วร: /วะ-ระ-; วอ-ระ-/

[tgeezer]

One rule which is immutable is that if the closing sylable is ร then the missing vowel is 'อ' กร is pronounced กอน

วร: /วะ-ระ-; วอ-ระ-/

Quite! your word should read วร- a prefix meaning 'supererior' in this case ร is not the closing consonent.

But I do appreciate the attempt to prove me wrong, it is only by testing that we can find the truth.

[SoftWater]

One rule which is immutable is that if the closing sylable is ร then the missing vowel is 'อ' กร is pronounced กอน

วร: /วะ-ระ-; วอ-ระ-/

When the letter at the end of a syllable is ร...; surely this ^ is a correct counter-example.

I suspect tgeezer meant when "the letter at the end of a word" is ร...

[wolf5370]

My favourite confusions are ทร (ทราย) which is pronounced as an 's' (Sai = sand) - followed by -รร , -รร- or -รรณ pronounced -an , -a- and -an - examples: กรร (gun) กรรม (kam) and วรรณ (wan). Good one is: บรรจุ (Ban Ju - contain)

Edited August 21, 2010 by wolf5370

[tgeezer]

One rule which is immutable is that if the closing syllable is ร then the missing vowel is 'อ' กร is pronounced กอน

วร: /วะ-ระ-; วอ-ระ-/

When the letter at the end of a syllable is ร...; surely this ^ is a correct counter-example.

I suspect tgeezer meant when "the letter at the end of a word" is ร...

I think that you may be right SW the posibilty of that misunderstanding didn't occur to me. It should have been obvious in this case because the pronunciation needs to be given!

Do you think that it would be right to deduce from that that it would normally be pronounced 'วอน'?

I should know better than to to use a word like 'immutable' to describe any rule.

[SoftWater]

*self-moderated

Edited August 21, 2010 by SoftWater

[Joosesis]

My favourite confusions are ทร (ทราย) which is pronounced as an 's' (Sai = sand) - followed by -รร , -รร- or -รรณ pronounced -an , -a- and -an - examples: กรร (gun) กรรม (kam) and วรรณ (wan). Good one is: บรรจุ (Ban Ju - contain)

Levels 2 and 3 in the Thai school books hit this pretty hard...they go over and clearly explain both รร and แท้/ไม่แท้ clusters

[wolf5370]

My favourite confusions are ทร (ทราย) which is pronounced as an 's' (Sai = sand) - followed by -รร , -รร- or -รรณ pronounced -an , -a- and -an - examples: กรร (gun) กรรม (kam) and วรรณ (wan). Good one is: บรรจุ (Ban Ju - contain)

Levels 2 and 3 in the Thai school books hit this pretty hard...they go over and clearly explain both รร and แท้/ไม่แท้ clusters

So canyou tell me the reason for it? I asked my old teacher, and she just shrugged and said 'from history' whjich as distinctly vague. I understand the rules, but had decided it was 'just becasue' like a lot of English language rule exceptions.

[Joosesis]

My favourite confusions are ทร (ทราย) which is pronounced as an 's' (Sai = sand) - followed by -รร , -รร- or -รรณ pronounced -an , -a- and -an - examples: กรร (gun) กรรม (kam) and วรรณ (wan). Good one is: บรรจุ (Ban Ju - contain)

Levels 2 and 3 in the Thai school books hit this pretty hard...they go over and clearly explain both รร and แท้/ไม่แท้ clusters

So canyou tell me the reason for it? I asked my old teacher, and she just shrugged and said 'from history' whjich as distinctly vague. I understand the rules, but had decided it was 'just becasue' like a lot of English language rule exceptions.

Oh, no...I have no idea. I think that is a Richard W. or Rikker question. I'm not a linguist.

[mangkorn]

My favourite confusions are ทร (ทราย) which is pronounced as an 's' (Sai = sand) - followed by -รร , -รร- or -รรณ pronounced -an , -a- and -an - examples: กรร (gun) กรรม (kam) and วรรณ (wan). Good one is: บรรจุ (Ban Ju - contain)

Levels 2 and 3 in the Thai school books hit this pretty hard...they go over and clearly explain both รร and แท้/ไม่แท้ clusters

So canyou tell me the reason for it? I asked my old teacher, and she just shrugged and said 'from history' whjich as distinctly vague. I understand the rules, but had decided it was 'just becasue' like a lot of English language rule exceptions.

The รร construction is borrowed into Thai from the Khmer way of writing some Pali/Sanskrit words. The rule of thumb is that when the syllable ends in รร, it is pronounced as "an"; when another consonant ends the syllable, that is pronounced as the final (กรรม - gam).

บรรจุ is two syllables: บรร; จุ.

One exception (among possible others?) is: กรรตุ / กะ-ตุ