English Fluency Of Thais

[IanForbes]

I don't know about Bangkok, but there seems to be enough Thais in Chiang Mai that speak reasonable English. Just go into the huge Airport Plaza mall to realize that. The lovely women working in D-TAC are more than adequate with the English language. It is a much different story in outlying cities where tourism is not so common. I have been to many Thai villages and small cities where it is difficult finding anyone who speaks English. I can't be of any help as far as wages are concerned.

[inthepink]

I think some Westerners who live here mistake a reticence to shove one's opinion down everybody else's throat on the part of Thai people as meaning they don't have the ability to think for themselves. For sure the less well educated ones are not all that bright but I really haven't noticed a huge difference compared to the majority of people back home.

I think if some effort is put into the recruiting process then it wouldn't be all that much trouble to find competent staff, although if 26k baht is too much then forget anyone with an overseas education of course.

That's says far more about you (and where you came from) than anyone else.....

In my experience, the Fillipinos are far more fluent in English but are even more likely to rob you blind given a chance.

Yes, it says I had friends from very varied backgrounds and unlike many other expats I don't try to pretend that everyone in the West is well educated because clearly they aren't.

Your and other people's opinions about how well educated Thai people are also says far more about you and the social status of the Thai people that you interact with than it does about anyone else.

Edited August 21, 2010 by inthepink

[kevozman1]

I've never met any Thai's in Thailand who are fluent in English. Look at all the Thai women who have been married to a farang for 30 years and how bad their level still is. Even most Thai English teachers here have a shocking grasp on the pronounciation.

If you've ever tried to learn Thai yourself you will understand that it's because there is no 100% transliteraion between Thai and English, so while there are many vowel and consonants that sound similar there is no direct way to translate a lot of the sounds between the two languages properly. This is why anyone trying to learn Thai has to learn how to read and write the Thai alphabet first as we have nothing to equate to the 32 Thai vowels and 44 consonants in our own language. I think for an English person learning Thai and vice verser this very difficult as there is very little language transfer between the two. I'm really struggling to learn Thai in the 18 months I've been here and I picked up Russian and Mandarin without putting much effort in.

In Philippines Tagalog is something like 40% Spanish which means they already have an understanding of a Latin based language so it's much easier for Filipinas to learn and speak English fluently. Not only that but it but they seem to truely understand where you are coming from, it doen't feel like you are hanging out with Asian's when you talk to Filipinas, it's like talking to Europeans.

Many will flame me saying that they know 1 Thai who is fluent in English but that is not the norm for every internation company representative/singer/whoever that I have spoken to.

A Thai lady married to a western man for 30 years............................ has that ever happened????

[way2muchcoffee]

A Thai lady married to a western man for 30 years............................ has that ever happened????

Probably will never happen for you. Pretty offensive comment.

Edited August 21, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[StreetCowboy]

I can't sleep, so I thought about this. I'd like to just make a general comment on English proficiency, because this is a perennial topic in East and SE Asia.

When it comes to livelihood issues, most people are pretty rational.

Time is a currency as much as money, and people have limited amounts of both. For Thai's, whose mother tongue is tonal and that has a relatively simple grammatical structure compared to English, the money and time investment needed to master English is substantial. However, given sufficient incentives, more Thai's would certainly work harder to become more proficient in English. In short, general English proficiency is a function of need; Thai workers have exactly the proficiency that employers are willing to pay for.

If the pay incentive were bigger, more Thai's would invest more time and money to become more proficient. And at that point, we would also have exactly the proficiency that employers were willing to pay for.

T

I've seen exactly the same regarding English in HK.

And the point is that most employers conclude that the standard of English in the Thai work force is adequate for their needs. But I am not aware of many businesses that actually run their Asian hubs out of Thailand...

If you want the best expat staff (i.e. people who want to work legally, don't expect a cut in their savings, and won't work for cheap totty and beer) then its not a cheap place to be based.

The additional overhead of bureaucracy probably adds a few per cent on to costs, similarly poor infrastructure - though having said that, India and the Philippines may well be worse.

SC

[Hal65]

Thank you all for the comments. I've decided that if I should move my base of employee operations, the Philippines will be the much more sensible choice. I'll save Thailand for an occasional vacation (or maybe not, given how I work these days!)

[Dakhar]

I've never met any Thai's in Thailand who are fluent in English. Look at all the Thai women who have been married to a farang for 30 years and how bad their level still is. Even most Thai English teachers here have a shocking grasp on the pronounciation.

If you've ever tried to learn Thai yourself you will understand that it's because there is no 100% transliteraion between Thai and English, so while there are many vowel and consonants that sound similar there is no direct way to translate a lot of the sounds between the two languages properly. This is why anyone trying to learn Thai has to learn how to read and write the Thai alphabet first as we have nothing to equate to the 32 Thai vowels and 44 consonants in our own language. I think for an English person learning Thai and vice verser this very difficult as there is very little language transfer between the two. I'm really struggling to learn Thai in the 18 months I've been here and I picked up Russian and Mandarin without putting much effort in.

In Philippines Tagalog is something like 40% Spanish which means they already have an understanding of a Latin based language so it's much easier for Filipinas to learn and speak English fluently. Not only that but it but they seem to truely understand where you are coming from, it doen't feel like you are hanging out with Asian's when you talk to Filipinas, it's like talking to Europeans.

Many will flame me saying that they know 1 Thai who is fluent in English but that is not the norm for every internation company representative/singer/whoever that I have spoken to.

What you stated regarding needing to learn to read etc etc.... is bull corn....

Take some lang. science courses before you spout off dribble. For example, my son can not read English or Thai, but he sure can speak either lang. with ease. I have a friend that can speak Thai fluently, he was raised here, but he can not read Thai or write Thai. He was raised in an English speaking environment, oddly enough, in a Thai family, living in Thailand. (Hi So) His mother was educated in France, and felt her children needed to have strong English skills.

Every one learns differently, you may need to learn to read etc etc, some folks just need a good pair of ears, and a sharp mind. Some folks need flash cards, hearing etc.. what ever floats your boat. But learning is not a "one size fits all" process.

BA Comm. Disorders

MS Audiology

Dr Audiology

[KunMatt]

What you stated regarding needing to learn to read etc etc.... is bull corn....

Take some lang. science courses before you spout off dribble. For example, my son can not read English or Thai, but he sure can speak either lang. with ease. I have a friend that can speak Thai fluently, he was raised here, but he can not read Thai or write Thai. He was raised in an English speaking environment, oddly enough, in a Thai family, living in Thailand. (Hi So) His mother was educated in France, and felt her children needed to have strong English skills.

Every one learns differently, you may need to learn to read etc etc, some folks just need a good pair of ears, and a sharp mind. Some folks need flash cards, hearing etc.. what ever floats your boat. But learning is not a "one size fits all" process.

BA Comm. Disorders

MS Audiology

Dr Audiology

I'm sure there would have been a better way for you to try and get your point across without trying to be insulting. Argumentum ad hominem much?? Let's see how much you do that in your previous posts....

Anyways, both the examples you cite are children learning 2 languages at the same time. Not adolescents or adults who already have a native tongue and then try to learn another language which is what I was talking about.

[Dakhar]

Regardless, what I stated still applies, learning is an individualized process. What suits you, may not suit others. I also do not agree that Mandarin Chinese has phonemes that are the same in spoken English. For example the word for fish.... match that phonetic structure to English and I would be very surprised, then the word, for "to change or to become" = BYAN again another phonetic structure or "blend" that for the life of me would not match any English phonetic blend. I "picked up" Chinese too, but I certainly do not read Chinese. (and yes I learned Chinese in my adult years)

Sorry if I seem crass, I have a low tolerance for self proclaimed experts. It is great that you "picked up" several languages. Even so, you are not Noam Chompsky or B.F. Skinner.

[prometheus]

What people got to realise is, English language does not for any longer belong to English speaking countries such as UK or US, people learn it to speak to other people who they assume can not speak their native tongue. So for all the comments that "I have never met a thai who is fluent in English" well, it does not matter, if they could communicate and people could understand, thats what matters.

[Dakhar]

What people got to realise is, English language does not for any longer belong to English speaking countries such as UK or US, people learn it to speak to other people who they assume can not speak their native tongue. So for all the comments that "I have never met a thai who is fluent in English" well, it does not matter, if they could communicate and people could understand, thats what matters.

Yes and No

It really depends on what level of communication do you require. Imagine if you were opening a pharmacy company and planned on making drugs controlled by the FDA. Now I think you would want your staff to be able to read and write English to the highest of standards. One "screw up" could be potenitially fatal & the whole facility could be shut down in a matter of hours due to that one screw up.

But if you are just stamping out T-shirts, well yea, then perfect English fluency is not that big of a deal.

[whybother]

Thank you all for the comments. I've decided that if I should move my base of employee operations, the Philippines will be the much more sensible choice. I'll save Thailand for an occasional vacation (or maybe not, given how I work these days!)

I hope your not making your decision based on a couple of dozen posts on TVF.

If you're really serious about setting up your business (in any other country), you should be contacting the Chambers of Commerce or other business groups.

[Thongkorn]

Most Thais I have heard speak American English, not English English, so is that bad English or not.

[inthepink]

"English English"? That would be English in other words then...

[Travel2003]

Thank you all for the comments. I've decided that if I should move my base of employee operations, the Philippines will be the much more sensible choice. I'll save Thailand for an occasional vacation (or maybe not, given how I work these days!)

I hope your not making your decision based on a couple of dozen posts on TVF.

If you're really serious about setting up your business (in any other country), you should be contacting the Chambers of Commerce or other business groups.

Totally agree.

As mentioned in my previous post in this thread, I find it strange OP doesnt visit the countries he plan to use first.

For someone claiming to run a business, with employees, I find it almost naive not to use the more professional channels, as you mentioned.

[KunMatt]

Regardless, what I stated still applies, learning is an individualized process. What suits you, may not suit others. I also do not agree that Mandarin Chinese has phonemes that are the same in spoken English. For example the word for fish.... match that phonetic structure to English and I would be very surprised, then the word, for "to change or to become" = BYAN again another phonetic structure or "blend" that for the life of me would not match any English phonetic blend. I "picked up" Chinese too, but I certainly do not read Chinese. (and yes I learned Chinese in my adult years)

Sorry if I seem crass, I have a low tolerance for self proclaimed experts. It is great that you "picked up" several languages. Even so, you are not Noam Chompsky or B.F. Skinner.

I never once said I was an expert on this, I was just posting what I have experienced. It was you who felt the need to post all of your qualifications and are TELLING people what is right and wrong on this subject but I still do not agree with you. If what you are are saying is true then why are there such a low number of Thais speaking fluent or even proficient English, or expats speaking Thai? Of course everyone learns languages differently and education and effort play a bit part, but there is a level of difficulty of a language based on the languages you already know. Some languages are much easier to learn based on your native tongue which is why anyone speaking fluent English could learn French much easier than learning a non-latin based language.

My point is that Thai and English do not transfer very easily. The biggest reason for me is because the Thai alphabet contains a lot of sounds and tones we do not use in English. For example you cannot reproduce a lot of the Thai 32 vowels with our alphabet. This is why when Thai is transliterated into English it can be spelt a number of different ways because there are no letters or sounds in English that completely represents the Thai letter/sound.

It's a fact that children learn languages far easier than adults, and I guess this is because they are not translating from their native tongue into another system, they are learning it in the same way you and I learned English so your examples still do not apply here.

And you may not read Chinese but I bet you read pinyin and used it to learn with. This is not possible in Thai which is why most learners try to learn Thai script to make it much easier.

Also, tell me why Indonesians, Malays and Filipinas can speak English much more proficiently than Thais or Chinese? Do you think it's because they have a different language base and also that they use a roman alphabet which makes learning English much easier for them?

[StreetCowboy]

Regardless, what I stated still applies, learning is an individualized process. What suits you, may not suit others. I also do not agree that Mandarin Chinese has phonemes that are the same in spoken English. For example the word for fish.... match that phonetic structure to English and I would be very surprised, then the word, for "to change or to become" = BYAN again another phonetic structure or "blend" that for the life of me would not match any English phonetic blend. I "picked up" Chinese too, but I certainly do not read Chinese. (and yes I learned Chinese in my adult years)

Sorry if I seem crass, I have a low tolerance for self proclaimed experts. It is great that you "picked up" several languages. Even so, you are not Noam Chompsky or B.F. Skinner.

I never once said I was an expert on this, I was just posting what I have experienced. It was you who felt the need to post all of your qualifications and are TELLING people what is right and wrong on this subject but I still do not agree with you. If what you are are saying is true then why are there such a low number of Thais speaking fluent or even proficient English, or expats speaking Thai? Of course everyone learns languages differently and education and effort play a bit part, but there is a level of difficulty of a language based on the languages you already know. Some languages are much easier to learn based on your native tongue which is why anyone speaking fluent English could learn French much easier than learning a non-latin based language.

My point is that Thai and English do not transfer very easily. The biggest reason for me is because the Thai alphabet contains a lot of sounds and tones we do not use in English. For example you cannot reproduce a lot of the Thai 32 vowels with our alphabet. This is why when Thai is transliterated into English it can be spelt a number of different ways because there are no letters or sounds in English that completely represents the Thai letter/sound.

It's a fact that children learn languages far easier than adults, and I guess this is because they are not translating from their native tongue into another system, they are learning it in the same way you and I learned English so your examples still do not apply here.

And you may not read Chinese but I bet you read pinyin and used it to learn with. This is not possible in Thai which is why most learners try to learn Thai script to make it much easier.

Also, tell me why Indonesians, Malays and Filipinas can speak English much more proficiently than Thais or Chinese? Do you think it's because they have a different language base and also that they use a roman alphabet which makes learning English much easier for them?

I can't comment on Indonesians, but Malays and Filippinos are universally educated with English as a second language and use it amongst themselves as a lingua franca (that always makes me laugh) because they are blessed by several completely diverse languages, or many hundreds of quite diverse dialects. Thais are fortunate in having a quite distinct national language, while the Chinese imposed Putonghua as their national dialect and lingua franca. You'll also find that Malaysia and Philippines are much more internationally outward-looking than and less parochial than Thailand or China.

A lot of us like alphabetic representation of words, which is why we use pinyin. We could use the Republic's phonetic alphabet, but since no-one actually uses it in practice, its a bit of a waste of time. However, if you are learning a language which is already alphabetic, like Thai, or Greek, or Khmer, or Sanskrit, or Russian, or whatever, then it would be churlish to insist on romanising everything. Bearing in mind that pinyin does not represent the same vowel or consonant sounds that the same letters represent in English. Perhaps it would make sense to develop a 'pinyin' for Thai - a consistent romanisation that used roman letters to represent the Thai sounds

I don't want to bicker for the sake of bickering, but there are very many Thais that speak good English, and very many ex-pats that speak Thai - I can't comment on its adequacy - I haven't noticed a particular penchant for foreigners to speak Malay despite its simplicity and use of the roman alphabet. Of course, in Thailand there is little need for foreigners to learn Thai, as English is so widely spoken to an adequate level.

SC

Edited August 22, 2010 by StreetCowboy

[IMA_FARANG]

In regards to Thas speaking English you will find:

1. Some with only a rudimentary knowledge of English

2. Some with a conversational knowledge of English (that is they can carry on a conversation) but they will fail in really understanding instructions given to them in English. (You can see if you observe carefully when they first "fail to comprehend" just what you are saying)

3. And finally those who truely understand English and are able to reply intelligently to your questions in English.

I would guess you might be lucky to get 10 percent that fall into category #3, If you do find one in category #3 hire him or her immeadiately. Pay them a better salary, according to what you can afford, because he or she is a prize.

The only way you can determine what category they fall into is to have a native English speaker interview and hire the staff for English language capability. You will find that those who have been to international schools in Thailand will probably have better English skills and fluency. Many of their classes will have been taught in English, so they have more experience speaking it. And yes, they will demand a higher salary, but they will be worth it. Make them your managerial staff. That way you can communicate with them in English, and they can pass the instructions on to lower rank staff in Thai who can't speak English as well as they do.

[Dakhar]

Regardless, what I stated still applies, learning is an individualized process. What suits you, may not suit others. I also do not agree that Mandarin Chinese has phonemes that are the same in spoken English. For example the word for fish.... match that phonetic structure to English and I would be very surprised, then the word, for "to change or to become" = BYAN again another phonetic structure or "blend" that for the life of me would not match any English phonetic blend. I "picked up" Chinese too, but I certainly do not read Chinese. (and yes I learned Chinese in my adult years)

Sorry if I seem crass, I have a low tolerance for self proclaimed experts. It is great that you "picked up" several languages. Even so, you are not Noam Chompsky or B.F. Skinner.

I never once said I was an expert on this, I was just posting what I have experienced. It was you who felt the need to post all of your qualifications and are TELLING people what is right and wrong on this subject but I still do not agree with you. If what you are are saying is true then why are there such a low number of Thais speaking fluent or even proficient English, or expats speaking Thai? Of course everyone learns languages differently and education and effort play a bit part, but there is a level of difficulty of a language based on the languages you already know. Some languages are much easier to learn based on your native tongue which is why anyone speaking fluent English could learn French much easier than learning a non-latin based language.

My point is that Thai and English do not transfer very easily. The biggest reason for me is because the Thai alphabet contains a lot of sounds and tones we do not use in English. For example you cannot reproduce a lot of the Thai 32 vowels with our alphabet. This is why when Thai is transliterated into English it can be spelt a number of different ways because there are no letters or sounds in English that completely represents the Thai letter/sound.

It's a fact that children learn languages far easier than adults, and I guess this is because they are not translating from their native tongue into another system, they are learning it in the same way you and I learned English so your examples still do not apply here.

And you may not read Chinese but I bet you read pinyin and used it to learn with. This is not possible in Thai which is why most learners try to learn Thai script to make it much easier.

Also, tell me why Indonesians, Malays and Filipinas can speak English much more proficiently than Thais or Chinese? Do you think it's because they have a different language base and also that they use a roman alphabet which makes learning English much easier for them?

I can't say I can really read Chinese romanization.... it really depends on what version, and honestly, I kind of developed my own as I was learning the language. One could develop their own for Thai too... if one wanted too. I don't think I have told people what is right or wrong, I have told people learning is not a "one size fits all" situation. There are multiple reasons why children learn languages faster than adults. One is due to the myelination process of the brain.

and regads to Indo/Maylay/Filip I think that has already been answered.

but will agree, reading would be helpful in picking up a second language... at least for me it would be. I mean honestly, I would think Vietnamese would be easier for me to pick up etc.. (but that is just pure conjecture and it applies to me only)

[Hal65]

Thank you all for the comments. I've decided that if I should move my base of employee operations, the Philippines will be the much more sensible choice. I'll save Thailand for an occasional vacation (or maybe not, given how I work these days!)

I hope your not making your decision based on a couple of dozen posts on TVF.

If you're really serious about setting up your business (in any other country), you should be contacting the Chambers of Commerce or other business groups.

Totally agree.

As mentioned in my previous post in this thread, I find it strange OP doesnt visit the countries he plan to use first.

For someone claiming to run a business, with employees, I find it almost naive not to use the more professional channels, as you mentioned.

Your train of thought: A business owner should go to formal channels to get information. After all, its a business and business = formal. Also who knows what else could be learned from the authority.

My train of thought: Knowing my important criteria, I ask the locals for the level of English skill. They confirm it's bad. Being as critical as it was, no further research is necessary since Thailand is eliminated.

Also the comment about visiting the country before planning the scenario is backwards IMO.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Delta223

[IanForbes]

What people got to realise is, English language does not for any longer belong to English speaking countries such as UK or US, people learn it to speak to other people who they assume can not speak their native tongue. So for all the comments that "I have never met a thai who is fluent in English" well, it does not matter, if they could communicate and people could understand, thats what matters.

Yes and No

It really depends on what level of communication do you require. Imagine if you were opening a pharmacy company and planned on making drugs controlled by the FDA. Now I think you would want your staff to be able to read and write English to the highest of standards. One "screw up" could be potenitially fatal & the whole facility could be shut down in a matter of hours due to that one screw up.

But if you are just stamping out T-shirts, well yea, then perfect English fluency is not that big of a deal.

Excellent point, and it's the same reason why there is seldom a hard and fast answer to a simple question on an open forum. For logical reasons the OP can NOT give out all the details about his plans, so any replies on an open forum are just speculation.