Excise Folks Hit Surin

[wildoates]

Well bike shops in Surin have been invaded by the Excise tax folks....looking for books or proof that tax has been paid......panic is the new word

[Garry]

I feel some sympathy for the folks who were sold bikes without knowing the rules about import tax /.duty fees. The other folks who have been running the gauntlet hoping they won't get caught, som nana

Edited August 25, 2010 by Garry

[nikster]

How dare they enforce the laws!

[thaicbr]

How dare they enforce the laws!

A law that no one knew about when buying their bikes 2nd hand. If you have a green book you imagine its legal. Am i right! am i!

[troehr]

How dare they enforce the laws!

A law that no one knew about when buying their bikes 2nd hand. If you have a green book you imagine its legal. Am i right! am i!

Being ignorant of a law in a foreign country is the buyers fault. There are plenty of ways to find out the rules for these things before buying.

T

[ScubaBuddha]

How dare they enforce the laws!

A law that no one knew about when buying their bikes 2nd hand. If you have a green book you imagine its legal. Am i right! am i!

True, ignorance of the law is not a defense, however there is a good point that even when you try to play by the rules, IE go to the LTD with seller before transfer, and transfer goes OK, you can STILL end up with a book that upon further inspection doesn't pass muster. The sellers take advantage of the corrupt LTD officials and the buyer ends up with the problem despite his best efforts.

[PolPat]

They are overly miltant and the rule seems to guilty until you prove otherwise. I had a new Kawasaki Boss with red plates at my girlfriends house and the tax guy came on to private property demanding to see paper work or he would impound the bike. I had to come from near Buriram to stop him. Given the bike had Pattaya plates but it seemed like undo harrasment. I offered the guy and his cronies some soda water and he went on about how I was trying to bribe him. After showing him the bill of sale he said it was wrong and wanted me to call the dealer. One of the cronies told the guy that it was a Thai bike and not grey market he packed up and left. He then went to my mechanics house and impounded two bikes all with taxes paid and green books. Fine with me checking you if they stop you on a public road, but raiding innocent peoples homes is wrong.

[wildoates]

How dare they enforce the laws!

A law that no one knew about when buying their bikes 2nd hand. If you have a green book you imagine its legal. Am i right! am i!

True, ignorance of the law is not a defense, however there is a good point that even when you try to play by the rules, IE go to the LTD with seller before transfer, and transfer goes OK, you can STILL end up with a book that upon further inspection doesn't pass muster. The sellers take advantage of the corrupt LTD officials and the buyer ends up with the problem despite his best efforts.

Agree, I have friends that brought their bike from bike shops, and paid for the book, and now some are worried cause they were told the book is no good.......I say the government should go to the shop and the government office that issued the book, not the individual that did everything right......

[noahvail]

+1

[thaicbr]

They are overly miltant and the rule seems to guilty until you prove otherwise. I had a new Kawasaki Boss with red plates at my girlfriends house and the tax guy came on to private property demanding to see paper work or he would impound  the bike. I had to come from near Buriram to stop him. Given the bike had Pattaya plates but it seemed like undo harrasment. I offered the guy and his cronies some soda water and he went on about how I was trying to bribe him. After showing him the bill of sale he said it was wrong and wanted me to call the dealer. One of the cronies told the guy that it was a Thai bike and not grey market he packed up and left. He then went to my mechanics house and impounded two bikes all with taxes paid and green books. Fine with me checking you if they stop you on a public road, but raiding innocent peoples homes is wrong.

Are we SURE these guys are actually customs people?

[PolPat]

They are overly miltant and the rule seems to guilty until you prove otherwise. I had a new Kawasaki Boss with red plates at my girlfriends house and the tax guy came on to private property demanding to see paper work or he would impound the bike. I had to come from near Buriram to stop him. Given the bike had Pattaya plates but it seemed like undo harrasment. I offered the guy and his cronies some soda water and he went on about how I was trying to bribe him. After showing him the bill of sale he said it was wrong and wanted me to call the dealer. One of the cronies told the guy that it was a Thai bike and not grey market he packed up and left. He then went to my mechanics house and impounded two bikes all with taxes paid and green books. Fine with me checking you if they stop you on a public road, but raiding innocent peoples homes is wrong.

Are we SURE these guys are actually customs people?

Yes, the impounded bikes were returned after producing books and paper work. The guy was known as he had busted a family member

coming back from the border with one to many boxes of cigarettes. The point is if I take my bike on the road it is reasonable to ask for documents and proof, but to raid somebodies house and demand proof on the spot is crazy. The books for impounded bikes were in a safe in a house at a different location. The raid on my bike resulted in a call stating you need to come back now or this man is going to take your bike. I could have been in route to Bangkok and unable to come back.

Edited August 25, 2010 by PolPat

[ClareQuilty]

Is this likely to affect the 70-80% of Thai-owned small bikes and scooters in Surin which doubtless have no book?

[wildoates]

Is this likely to affect the 70-80% of Thai-owned small bikes and scooters in Surin which doubtless have no book?

they don't seem to be concerned in small bikes...and if it is an old bike they are not concerned, it seems to be 400cc and up and newer than 99 at least this is what the shop owner here told me...he refused to let them in his shop 3 times, they got a court document and came back with the police

[Dave the Dude]

Is this likely to affect the 70-80% of Thai-owned small bikes and scooters in Surin which doubtless have no book?

they don't seem to be concerned in small bikes...and if it is an old bike they are not concerned, it seems to be 400cc and up and newer than 99 at least this is what the shop owner here told me...he refused to let them in his shop 3 times, they got a court document and came back with the police

I hope Mr Moo gets out of this farce OK, as he is one of the Good Guys (in Surin)

[LivinLOS]

How dare they enforce the laws!

A law that no one knew about when buying their bikes 2nd hand. If you have a green book you imagine its legal. Am i right! am i!

Being ignorant of a law in a foreign country is the buyers fault. There are plenty of ways to find out the rules for these things before buying.

T

Sorry bullshit..

The excise tax has been around for a decade, but only now enforced.

Some people have proof (scans of the old books) that original books had excise info in them, but lazy LTO staff didnt move the tax information from one book to another when issuing new books. At the time it wasnt considered required.

The fact someone back in the supply chain didnt pay their tax, is not a reason to push that burden onto a current owner, who had the book checked and bought the bike in good faith. If the rule had been consistently applied there might be reason to feel the above, but that isnt the case.

Lastly they demand excise tax on bikes that this is not due, excise tax was started in (IIRC) 2545 so 1997, if you have a initial registration before 97 then its not due on the bike, but customs generally make up all kinds of lies to claim it (how do we know it was registered pre 97, bring us the first book, bring us the import paperwork) etc.

[LivinLOS]

They are overly miltant and the rule seems to guilty until you prove otherwise. I had a new Kawasaki Boss with red plates at my girlfriends house and the tax guy came on to private property demanding to see paper work or he would impound  the bike. I had to come from near Buriram to stop him. Given the bike had Pattaya plates but it seemed like undo harrasment. I offered the guy and his cronies some soda water and he went on about how I was trying to bribe him. After showing him the bill of sale he said it was wrong and wanted me to call the dealer. One of the cronies told the guy that it was a Thai bike and not grey market he packed up and left. He then went to my mechanics house and impounded two bikes all with taxes paid and green books. Fine with me checking you if they stop you on a public road, but raiding innocent peoples homes is wrong.

Are we SURE these guys are actually customs people?

Thats how customs behaved on Phuket too.. No warrants, raids on private property, even scanning condo carparks in farang areas to nab big bikes that 'might' fall into it..

Just throw as wide a net as possible, then lie and obfuscate, refuse to speak or understand english (when they can totally any other day) not give clear answers on what or why they are doing it, and just demand money. The polce and land transport office assist them in the shakedown, they have your bike, often with no right to it, and ransom it back.

I should also add.. When the people involved paid 20, 30, plus etc thousand.. They often didnt get the excise tax added to the books, just given the bikes back so ready for another fleecing next time around.

[nikster]

Well unfortunately customs are the worst scum so not too surprised if they try to shake you down for some money. Asking for 10 year old receipts that nobody knew had to be kept around is right up their alley.

But if you bought your bike with no license plate, or no green book, or later "obtained" a green book for it somewhere for a sizable sum, then all I can say is it's your own fault.

I would love to see you use that "but... that law was never enforced before..." line back home in Europe. A sure way to get the officials mad as hel_l 555555

[LivinLOS]

But if you bought your bike with no license plate, or no green book, or later "obtained" a green book for it somewhere for a sizable sum, then all I can say is it's your own fault.

Sure play with fire etc.. But the vast majority here on Phuket were all plated bikes, purchased in good faith, with the full belief (and implicit backing of the LTO at previous transfers) that all was above board.

I would love to see you use that "but... that law was never enforced before..." line back home in Europe. A sure way to get the officials mad as hel_l 555555

Lets face it.. The west wouldnt have a system so full of holes and flaws.. Theres so many reasons why bikes get 'stuck' in peoples names.. The whole way they implement it is a bit of a joke.

[loser1]

I feel some sympathy for the folks who were sold bikes without knowing the rules about import tax /.duty fees. The other folks who have been running the gauntlet hoping they won't get caught, som nana

Som nana??

I'm sure it's 'som nam nah'

If you can't even get that right, oh what's the point.

Edited August 29, 2010 by loser1

[CMX]

"But the vast majority here on Phuket were all plated bikes, purchased in good faith, with the full belief (and implicit backing of the LTO at previous transfers) that all was above board."

I'd be grateful to know the name of the outfit that did the survey. I'm ready to need a document, based on women I've known over the years, saying that I am the hottest thing going - ever and always. I feel that a study like the one mentioned would result in a, er, call it romanticized report, just what I want to say and feel about myself, whatever the facts.

C'mon, us bikers ain't so dumb. And price was part of the picture, as sort of a clue.

[thaicbr]

"But the vast majority here on Phuket were all plated bikes, purchased  in good faith, with the full belief (and implicit backing of the LTO at  previous transfers) that all was above board."

I'd be grateful to know the name of the outfit that did the survey.  I'm ready to need a document, based on women I've known over the years, saying that I am the hottest thing going - ever and always.   I feel that a study like the one mentioned would result in a, er, call it romanticized report, just what I want to say and feel about myself, whatever the facts.

C'mon, us bikers ain't so dumb.  And price was part of the picture, as sort of a clue.

CMX. What do you mean price was part of the picture. If you are paying 100,000b + for a bike which in your home country would cost maybe half that why wouldn't you think it was ok. IF the bike had a green book AND up to date tax. Then the DMV (land transport dept) say its ok. After all THEY are the one's that are supposed to be in charge of this. 

I can only speak on personal experience about Green books and would say that Livin is correct about BIg bikes from say 91-2004. Then people started wising up with the help of websites like this one.

Also i have to add i HAVE the document you were referring to (signed by every one) 

[LivinLOS]

"But the vast majority here on Phuket were all plated bikes, purchased in good faith, with the full belief (and implicit backing of the LTO at previous transfers) that all was above board."

I'd be grateful to know the name of the outfit that did the survey. I'm ready to need a document, based on women I've known over the years, saying that I am the hottest thing going - ever and always. I feel that a study like the one mentioned would result in a, er, call it romanticized report, just what I want to say and feel about myself, whatever the facts.

C'mon, us bikers ain't so dumb. And price was part of the picture, as sort of a clue.

Erm.. Knowing lots of the people who had bikes pulled in, yes most were bikes bought with a 'legit' green book.. That were not playing with grey books.. Only someone further back up the chain didnt pay excise duty (and in many cases it wasnt due).

This wasnt only applying to 30 to 50k cheapies.. It was / is over the whole range, 800k harleys etc. And most owners were caught totally off guard.

Secondly I guess you think its fair game that customs then took the money for excise and only gave the bikes back, not putting the excise payment into the green books, so they can be fleeced a second time ?? Your dealing with corrupt scumbags, dont portray this as innocent officials fairly imposing the rules.

[mbox]

Interesting thread ,

I got a older Virago 750 ( 85 model) first registered in Thailand 1992 ...i think that it is 100% legal...but how to get this confirmed if this is truly all legal and the excise tax is all fine? Transfer was happening with no probs ( from BKK to "semi"-sticks) lost plate got a new one and a new book ( copied the old book) there are entries on page 16 & 18 as well.

mbox

[CMX]

Hi,

"And most owners were caught totally off guard."

I was wondering how we got informed about the majority, that's all. It's as if everyone assumes that most buyers were totally unaware of the risks, didn't check independently, or didn't seize a suspiciously good bargain, never mind fixing up a book themselves. Maybe so, but if I were asked, I might forget details that were inconvenient to recall. Well, I would not of course, but someone might. Maybe one, huh?

"Secondly I guess you think its fair game that customs then took the money for excise and only gave the bikes back, not putting the excise payment into the green books, so they can be fleeced a second time ?? Your dealing with corrupt scumbags, dont portray this as innocent officials fairly imposing the rules."

No I don't. Absolutely wrong, and I hate that I cannot think of a way of fixing it or that corruption of that type seems so widespread. But using that as an excuse to justify my own cutting corners is dishonest. What I question is hollering about someone else's wrongs to justify my own. But if you assure me that the majority of those troubled by the police in this case were absolutely honest and utterly innocent, I'll take your word for it. For one thing, you live there and know everybody. For another, we bikers are famous for our probity almost more than anything else, excepting the love of women of course.

Edited August 30, 2010 by CMX

[LivinLOS]

I think you only have to look at various threads and howls of annoyance to find the whole excise tax was a 'new' issue that came out of nowhere to bite people in the ass. I am all for everyone playing to the rules they have, but lets have the rules, clearly and publicly stated, and evenly enforced. While rules are tolerated to be broken, you have to wonder if people are also as much at fault, when they then break some ??

As at least one person showed scans of an old book with excise info, and new books for the same bike where the excise info didnt get moved over due to lazy DMV staff.. You have to wonder how much of this was a real lack of taxes paid and how much was piss poor implementation ??

[katabeachbum]

Hi,

"And most owners were caught totally off guard."

I was wondering how we got informed about the majority, that's all. It's as if everyone assumes that most buyers were totally unaware of the risks, didn't check independently, or didn't seize a suspiciously good bargain, never mind fixing up a book themselves. Maybe so, but if I were asked, I might forget details that were inconvenient to recall. Well, I would not of course, but someone might. Maybe one, huh?

"Secondly I guess you think its fair game that customs then took the money for excise and only gave the bikes back, not putting the excise payment into the green books, so they can be fleeced a second time ?? Your dealing with corrupt scumbags, dont portray this as innocent officials fairly imposing the rules."

No I don't. Absolutely wrong, and I hate that I cannot think of a way of fixing it or that corruption of that type seems so widespread. But using that as an excuse to justify my own cutting corners is dishonest. What I question is hollering about someone else's wrongs to justify my own. But if you assure me that the majority of those troubled by the police in this case were absolutely honest and utterly innocent, I'll take your word for it. For one thing, you live there and know everybody. For another, we bikers are famous for our probity almost more than anything else, excepting the love of women of course.

In the real LOS you go into a well reputated bike shop, make an agreement on a 500k bike which is double to tripple the price of UK or US, ride out on redplate to pick up your green book and white plate one or three months later. Should one avoid buying the bike cause one has to suspect they will cheat you?

At least thats how it worked until 2-3 years ago. Not sure I would dare it today

[CMX]

I can certainly see how an honest, innocent, and ignorant biker could be fooled.

But based on my purchasing experiences here (by walking around) I think that it would be strange if that buyer was not aware at all of market prices. Thais still think of big bikes as luxuries and tax them that way and import duties have only recently been adjusted downward on small bikes, only up to 250cc. That is, anything like a "big" bike would be expensive because of various duties and taxes. The second hand market is still that way.

So if a bike costs twice as much, second hand, to that which it would in my country, I might think it a legitimate purchase if I wanted to do so. On the other hand, if I missed the fact somehow that the going price on the market was triple the cost to which I was accustomed and I was paying only double, it could be said that due diligence was not done and that the buyer was looking to cut corners - or was not careful, in a foreign country, with a fairly major purchase. Perhaps I was just wishful, knowing in the back of my mind that "everyone is doing it."

But no matter; the point is made. Virtually all those tackled by the police were innocents. They were utterly honest in their dealings, and not depending upon unenforced laws to provide a bargain, because in a foreign country, that would be irresponsible and taking a risk. Stuff could happen.

Those very few, if any, who knew vaguely in their minds that something hinted of taking advantage of a situation, they - of course - have no complaint. If there is anyone like that, which there isn't. And that's our story, and we're stickin' to it.

[LivinLOS]

I can certainly see how an honest, innocent, and ignorant biker could be fooled.

But based on my purchasing experiences here (by walking around) I think that it would be strange if that buyer was not aware at all of market prices. Thais still think of big bikes as luxuries and tax them that way and import duties have only recently been adjusted downward on small bikes, only up to 250cc. That is, anything like a "big" bike would be expensive because of various duties and taxes. The second hand market is still that way.

So if a bike costs twice as much, second hand, to that which it would in my country, I might think it a legitimate purchase if I wanted to do so. On the other hand, if I missed the fact somehow that the going price on the market was triple the cost to which I was accustomed and I was paying only double, it could be said that due diligence was not done and that the buyer was looking to cut corners - or was not careful, in a foreign country, with a fairly major purchase. Perhaps I was just wishful, knowing in the back of my mind that "everyone is doing it."

But no matter; the point is made. Virtually all those tackled by the police were innocents. They were utterly honest in their dealings, and not depending upon unenforced laws to provide a bargain, because in a foreign country, that would be irresponsible and taking a risk. Stuff could happen.

Those very few, if any, who knew vaguely in their minds that something hinted of taking advantage of a situation, they - of course - have no complaint. If there is anyone like that, which there isn't. And that's our story, and we're stickin' to it.

My sarcasm filter my be operating overload..

But really.. People buying 10 plus year old bikes at a few 100k.. How do you define 2x or 3x prices ?? 'Valuing' old bikes isnt an exact science.

[CMX]

Well, you're right, and I apologize.

I was going for reductio ad absurdum

Missed the mark. But what we really are exchanging views about is feeling upset because the police are enforcing laws that many felt had been lost in time and space forever. We take their sudden (and extreme steps, another issue) enforcement as if they'd passed a law "ex post facto" - I think that's what I mean.

But in fact, most buyers of xpensive bikes discussed these details - green books, plates, and so forth, the gray market - over beers, if the purchase was considered before various forums. There was v. slight chance of a problem down the road and they bought the bike and fixed it up and polished up its appearance and made it family.

But given the large number of discussions on this forum that specifically lay out different situations, I have to think that somebody had a clue. It was the shock of unexpected enforcement of what had traditionally been let go that was annoying.

Compound that with heavy handed enforcement or green books not correctly credited with back payments, and of course we're upset. But righteous? Not.

Edited August 30, 2010 by CMX

[thaicbr]

CMx........... I gotta say that you haven't got a clue. The POLICE are not enforcing anything. It's the Customs Dept that have been told to increase their intake of money.

Having already squeezed every body else dry they had to look elsewhere. The point that is being made is that it's generally not the current owner who did not pay the tax but thats being ignored.

The whole system was corrupt and now it is the current owner paying for it. I would wager that 10 years ago most people would not even have known about this obscure tax (including the customs men). Certainly when the Customs did an amnesty for payment last year it was barely advertised.

Also do not forget that most of these bikes had been taxed, insured and legal for many years before this.  (I'm talking about the land transport dept)

So please get of your high horse.