Questions Linger Over Victims Of Deadly Thai Protests

[webfact]

Questions linger over victims of deadly Thai protests

by Didier Lauras

BANGKOK (AFP) -- Elisabetta Polenghi is still waiting for answers from the Thai authorities on her brother's death more than 100 days after a bloody army crackdown that crushed anti-government protests in Bangkok.

Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi was killed on May 19, the day of the final army crackdown, but despite repeated calls for information on the deaths of scores of people during two months of demonstrations, questions remain.

Elisabetta received the preliminary post mortem report on the day of her brother's cremation on May 24, but since then she and families of other victims have heard nothing from the justice ministry's powerful Department of Special Investigation (DSI).

"I'm waiting, as everyone, for some news, but I have got nothing yet from the DSI," she told AFP by email.

"The only thing I can I say now is that I won't give up."

Pressure is mounting on Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's government and the DSI, which is heading the main inquiry, to come up with answers over those killed in clashes between security forces and "Red Shirt" protesters.

"The conflicting accounts of virtually every incident during this period underscore the need for a thorough and impartial fact-finding commission to determine what happened," think-tank International Crisis Group said in July.

The Red Shirts began a campaign in March aimed at bringing down the Abhisit government by occupying an area of old Bangkok.

Weeks later, an initial military operation on April 10 against the protesters ended with 25 people dead after the army failed to disperse them.

The Reds, who represent Thailand's underprivileged rural and urban masses, moved their protest to Bangkok's commercial and tourist heart and fortified their position with bamboo barricades.

Talks failed, and after several days of street battles and numerous incidents, the country was left with a total of 91 people dead and nearly 2,000 injured over the two-month period -- and a deeper divide than ever between the Reds and the Bangkok elites connected with the palace, army and judiciary.

In June, Abhisit appointed the 73-year-old Kanit Nanakorn to head a Truth and Reconciliation commission, a move denounced as a "whitewash" by the opposition, who said the former attorney general was too close to the government.

At the same time, the DSI was put in charge of the main inquiry.

But Police Colonel Naras Savestanan, DSI deputy director general, said last week he had no new details to announce.

"We cannot complete an overall picture of the dead and who did it," he said.

"The difficulty we're facing is that most of the bodies were moved, transferred from the scene to hospitals. It's very difficult to process information."

No details have been released about the death on April 10 of Hiro Muramoto, a Japanese cameraman working for Reuters news agency, or that of freelancer Polenghi.

There is no information either on six unarmed civilians killed in a Buddhist temple, a protected area during the fighting, which Abhisit called "the most regrettable incident" of the protests during an interview with AFP in July.

Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them.

Last week, the government ordered the DSI report to be prepared within 60 days, and Suthep Thaugsuban, deputy prime minister in charge of security, said clarity was vital.

"I can say that results must be clear in every case, such as eye witnesses' evidence, and if there are not enough officers, the DSI can mobilise police to help," Suthep said.

But for now, the Thais must wait.

Sunai Phasuk, from Human Rights Watch, acknowledged the government's assurances but said he wanted to see results, criticising the "secrecy and lack of transparency" from the DSI and the army.

"If their position remains unchanged, public statements from Abhisit will be challenged, not by critics, but by agencies of his government," he said.

"If there is nothing to be worried about, they need to give the results to the public. By hiding it in the dark, it would raise further suspicions that there was something wrong in the handling of the dispersal of the Red Shirts."

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2010-08-29

[Robby nz]

The Reds, who represent Thailand's underprivileged rural and urban masses

Why are we subjected to the same BS in every report we see that has anything to do with the reds riots.

Surely by now everyone knowes the reds represent Thaksin, the richest Thai of all.

It must be very difficult to come to any firm conclusions as to how most of the victims died due to the confusion at the time.

Of course the CCTV cameras being put out of action wouldnt have helped.

The reds denials that they ever did anything wrong and Jutaporn constently trying to confuse the situation doesnt help either.

[whybother]

Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them.

This is the main problem with the red shirts and their supporters - the denial that they had an armed group in their midst.

[yellow1red1]

The grieving sister and others should be counselled to realize 'questions will linger' for decades to come and there will never EVER be closure of who dunnit.

and Suthep Thaugsuban, deputy prime minister in charge of security, said clarity was vital.

"I can say that results must be clear in every case, such as eye witnesses' evidence, and if there are not enough officers, the DSI can mobilise police to help," Suthep said.

Even if eye witness accounts plus video were combined with entry wounds to show where the killers were stattioned that would be the only easy part. Next would be who was shooting? This will never EVER be determined. ever... Blacks reds yellows cambodians CIA muslims have all been mentioned ,,, ever! and never

BTW who killed JFK?

when some say the reds shut the airports down, for an example, Google it if you dont believe, its not too hard to predict how this more complicated issue will play out in the news for yaers ,, anon

pretend in wildest impossible dreamland the killers are discovered, the other scoundrels won't believe it And still propoganda, but su

per imagination they do, oh will that bring peace to Thailand?

nopers!

TiT

can't even boot an arms dealer out without making it part of the 17 ring circus

Edit; injury victims could show 'exactly' where they were and in what position when bullets hit them and the sniper locations could be directed to. but that will nothing anyway

when the hand basket is into the 2nd tier, miracles are impossible

Edited August 29, 2010 by yellow1red1

[otherstuff1957]

This is part of the problem that the forensic specialists face:

The Redshirts themselves prevented evidence that could have helped their case from being recorded...

Of course, there is always the possibility that they were preventing evidence from being recorded that would have convicted them of harboring killers.

[Hakuchi]

Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them.

This is the main problem with the red shirts and their supporters - the denial that they had an armed group in their midst.

Isn't that also the problem with the government?

[FarangCravings]

Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them.

This is the main problem with the red shirts and their supporters - the denial that they had an armed group in their midst.

Isn't that also the problem with the government?

Plaiun and straigth cover up by the government so the DSI cant give any info cause bodies were taken to different places just how ridiculous is a statement like that its clear there will be no forthcoming information as it will pu the current goverment in very bad light and confirm what many suspect.

[Hakuchi]

This is part of the problem that the forensic specialists face:

The Redshirts themselves prevented evidence that could have helped their case from being recorded...  

Of course, there is always the possibility that they were preventing evidence from being recorded that would have convicted them of harboring killers.

Errm,  from the OP:

"Sunai Phasuk, from Human Rights Watch, acknowledged the government's assurances but said he wanted to see results, criticising the "secrecy and lack of transparency" from the DSI and the army."  

What makes you think that the recordings by these cameras would be published? There were so many extra security in the city. They all have their own camera men observing and recording the events. And for sure more than a few undercover agents were amongst the red shirts. all collecting plenty material but nothing gets published and kept secret. guess why. something to hide?

[sevenhills]

Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them.

This is the main problem with the red shirts and their supporters - the denial that they had an armed group in their midst.

Isn't that also the problem with the government?

Agree on this one, the big problem was / is also the Yellow shirt Government who wish to keep the rural folk very poor so they can control them.

The Yellow shirts have a lot to answer for also. (The men in black were probably yellow shirts in disguise, as were the blue shirts a years or so ago)?

The real truth will never be known....Just a big cover up.

[whybother]

Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them.

This is the main problem with the red shirts and their supporters - the denial that they had an armed group in their midst.

Isn't that also the problem with the government?

The government aren't denying that the army was there and that the army killed people.

The reds are denying that there were armed protesters and that the armed protesters killed people.

[trogers]

Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them.

This is the main problem with the red shirts and their supporters - the denial that they had an armed group in their midst.

The image of terrorist snipers lying prone between the legs of female protestors come to mind...

[Hakuchi]

This is the main problem with the red shirts and their supporters - the denial that they had an armed group in their midst.

Isn't that also the problem with the government?

The government aren't denying that the army was there and that the army killed people.

The reds are denying that there were armed protesters and that the armed protesters killed people.

How many people got killed by the army?  That is some red shirt claim but have you evidence for that?

I thought nobody knows who killed the people because there was a serious lack of plenty crime tape that couldn't be drapped allover the scene?

No one was able to put up crime tape to cordon of an area to investigate any deaths!  There was too much shooting going on from both sides.

[whybother]

How many people got killed by the army? That is some red shirt claim but have you evidence for that?

I thought nobody knows who killed the people because there was a serious lack of plenty crime tape that couldn't be drapped allover the scene?

No one was able to put up crime tape to cordon of an area to investigate any deaths! There was too much shooting going on from both sides.

You remind me of a recently banned poster who would always bring irrelevant, or out of context, details into an argument.

It's pointless trying to discuss anything with you.

[Hakuchi]

How many people got killed by the army?  That is some red shirt claim but have you evidence for that?

I thought nobody knows who killed the people because there was a serious lack of plenty crime tape that couldn't be drapped allover the scene?

No one was able to put up crime tape to cordon of an area to investigate any deaths!  There was too much shooting going on from both sides.

You remind me of a recently banned poster who would always bring irrelevant, or out of context, details into an argument.

It's pointless trying to discuss anything with you.

Out of context? It is exactly the same topic, it is about the dead people.

Now you making claims that the army killed the people. Suddenly you seems to know more than the DSI. Please provide evidence for it or withdraw that statement.

[Throatwobbler]

Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them.

This is the main problem with the red shirts and their supporters - the denial that they had an armed group in their midst.

Isn't that also the problem with the government?

Agree on this one, the big problem was / is also the Yellow shirt Government who wish to keep the rural folk very poor so they can control them.

The Yellow shirts have a lot to answer for also. (The men in black were probably yellow shirts in disguise, as were the blue shirts a years or so ago)?

The real truth will never be known....Just a big cover up.

The red shirt leaders also want to keep the rural people poor so they can control. The red leaders don't care about the rural poor apart from chucking them the odd scrap from the trough while they gorge themselves.

If a real movement came along who really cared about the poor they would have my full support. I cannot, however ,support a band of thugs.

[jayjay0]

quote

The Reds, who represent Thailand's underprivileged rural and urban masses, moved their protest to Bangkok's commercial and tourist heart and fortified their position with bamboo barricades.

I find it hard to believe any one believes that any more. The Nation should reconsider that statement and try to distance themselves from Thaksin in stead of budding up to him.

That being said what is the point of the questions. People were in a war zone where both sides were firing live ammunition. Perhaps they could locate the spotr where the bullet was fired from big deal. Who fired it would be a better question and what is the difference if it was the army. They were operating with in the law. Most of the people killed were operating outside the law and giving armed resistance to a legal effort to stop them. Some were doing what they get paid to do report the news. Death is a large part of the job. Unless they were brain dead they knew this going in to the war zone. They accepted the risk and determined that it was acceptable and went in. In short the facts of the actual killings will never be known and there fore not come out. If by some chance they did c ome out what would change. The red shirts would still deny they did any thing wrong and the Army would still admit they were doing there job.

It is time to stop wasting time and money on a meaningless exercise and put our efforts towards bringing the country closer together. It is only a small portion of society that is against that. Unfortunately there is a portion of society that will never want or work for that. I might add that a great many of them wear shirts that are not the color of the King. Many of these people have large bank accounts also. Then we have the elite the well to do. It would be my guess that a large percentage of them would not object to the poor having better conditions and schooling. There is some who are like Thaksin but not all of them.

Give peace a try.

[whybother]

How many people got killed by the army? That is some red shirt claim but have you evidence for that?

I thought nobody knows who killed the people because there was a serious lack of plenty crime tape that couldn't be drapped allover the scene?

No one was able to put up crime tape to cordon of an area to investigate any deaths! There was too much shooting going on from both sides.

You remind me of a recently banned poster who would always bring irrelevant, or out of context, details into an argument.

It's pointless trying to discuss anything with you.

Out of context? It is exactly the same topic, it is about the dead people.

Now you making claims that the army killed the people. Suddenly you seems to know more than the DSI. Please provide evidence for it or withdraw that statement.

The comments about "crime tape" - Out of context and irrelevant.

"How many people got killed by the army?" - who knows? How many people were killed by armed red shirts? According to red shirt supporters - "none, there was no armed red shirts".

Please point out my "claims that the army killed the people". Continuing along the same lines as the previously mentioned banned poster.

[animatic]

How many people got killed by the army? That is some red shirt claim but have you evidence for that?

I thought nobody knows who killed the people because there was a serious lack of plenty crime tape that couldn't be drapped allover the scene?

No one was able to put up crime tape to cordon of an area to investigate any deaths! There was too much shooting going on from both sides.

You remind me of a recently banned poster who would always bring irrelevant, or out of context, details into an argument.

It's pointless trying to discuss anything with you.

Would that be the 4th return of Probably_Dysfunctional?

Seems the kitty cat is just getting bigger....

Edited August 29, 2010 by animatic

[rubl]

Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them.

This is the main problem with the red shirts and their supporters - the denial that they had an armed group in their midst.

Isn't that also the problem with the government?

Plaiun and straigth cover up by the government so the DSI cant give any info cause bodies were taken to different places just how ridiculous is a statement like that its clear there will be no forthcoming information as it will pu the current goverment in very bad light and confirm what many suspect.

Government conspiracy theory at it best. People shot and either dead or still alive WERE carried off to safer places disturbing the 'crime' scene. How ridiculous to deny that.

Edited August 29, 2010 by rubl

[otherstuff1957]

This is part of the problem that the forensic specialists face:

The Redshirts themselves prevented evidence that could have helped their case from being recorded...

Of course, there is always the possibility that they were preventing evidence from being recorded that would have convicted them of harboring killers.

Errm, from the OP:

"Sunai Phasuk, from Human Rights Watch, acknowledged the government's assurances but said he wanted to see results, criticising the "secrecy and lack of transparency" from the DSI and the army."

What makes you think that the recordings by these cameras would be published? There were so many extra security in the city. They all have their own camera men observing and recording the events. And for sure more than a few undercover agents were amongst the red shirts. all collecting plenty material but nothing gets published and kept secret. guess why. something to hide?

You're ignoring the fact that the Redshirts themselves guaranteed that there would be no recording for the government to suppress. Why do you think that they would do that? Did they have something to hide?

[chantorn]

"Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them." AFP

I believe that AFP forgot to mention that those men in Black could not have killed 91 people. What is intentionally left out was that there are hundreds of soldiers and snipers firing live bullets too.

Elisabetta Polenghi, take my advise, get on with your life; what is lost is lost. Neither DSI nor CRES can be of your assistance. You will never know the truth. If you press hard enough, all you gonna get is a make up story that the looser did it (who ever the looser is at that time).

[Hakuchi]

Please point out my "claims that the army killed the people".

okay my bad, seems i got one of your comments totally wrong.

The government aren't denying that the army was there and that the army killed people.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Hakuchi

[asiawatcher]

This is part of the problem that the forensic specialists face:

The Redshirts themselves prevented evidence that could have helped their case from being recorded...

Of course, there is always the possibility that they were preventing evidence from being recorded that would have convicted them of harboring killers.

Absolutely and of course, if the Police had done their job the army would never have been brought out. So rather than a whole heap of accusations by not finding out who killed who and by whom, better to look at what caused the problem and write it off to experience. It will never be revealed at any rate. If you lay siege to a city you can expect the worse. But sad for innocent people who were caught up in cross fire by both sides. Wrong place at the wrong time ... Som Num Na again...

[ballpoint]

How many people got killed by the army? That is some red shirt claim but have you evidence for that?

I thought nobody knows who killed the people because there was a serious lack of plenty crime tape that couldn't be drapped allover the scene?

No one was able to put up crime tape to cordon of an area to investigate any deaths! There was too much shooting going on from both sides.

You remind me of a recently banned poster who would always bring irrelevant, or out of context, details into an argument.

It's pointless trying to discuss anything with you.

Would that be the 4th return of Probably_Dysfunctional?

Seems the kitty cat is just getting bigger....

facepalm

[Changian]

Unfortunately Elisabetta will probably never get any clear answers.

The Thai establishment - regardless of which political party is in power - tends not to disclose anything that portrays members of the govt or army in a negative light. Eg The Saudi gems case - how long has that been going on?

[animatic]

The sad reality is the Italian Photographer, went into a known 'free fire zone',

wearing the colors of one side of the combatants, likely from sheer ignorance

of the dynamic at play, and was shot and killed. A personal tragedy of course.

It's sad, but IMHO, the poor man is the primary cause for his unfortunate death. His sister should understand this, but wants to see it on paper.

So many bullets, fired, of all types, on all sides, makes it a practical impossibility to determine ' 'which gun, in who's hands' it was at that time'.

War weapons were in the hands of both sides; no side can be ruled out.

And no specific side can be definitively rule in either.

A sad but obvious reality, except to those wishing to make political capital

from the lack of specific data pointing to anyone on either side.

Edited August 30, 2010 by animatic

[animatic]

"Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them." AFP

I believe that AFP forgot to mention that those men in Black could not have killed 91 people. What is intentionally left out was that there are hundreds of soldiers and snipers firing live bullets too.

Elisabetta Polenghi, take my advise, get on with your life; what is lost is lost. Neither DSI nor CRES can be of your assistance. You will never know the truth. If you press hard enough, all you gonna get is a make up story that the looser did it (who ever the looser is at that time).

While it is clear both sides did shoot and hit people, to limit the 'ringer'

Black Shooters to some minor role is disingenuous. The obvious whole

reason for the black shooters being there was to cause, more chaos,

deaths, and cause a backlash against the army, by raising the numbers

of dead significantly. In the hopes of bringing down the government,

and simultaneously side lining the army leadership opposing the red faction.

It is quite plausible that most of the dead not killed in obvious clashes

with soldiers, were victims of this sniper attrition, that intentionally could

NOT be 'specifically blamed on anyone', but could be politically spun toward the security forces.

It is also quite clear that most Thai's have seen through this devils charade.

Edited August 30, 2010 by animatic

[yellow1red1]

"Some facts are known: on several occasions during the two months, live rounds were fired and elite gunmen, masked and dressed in black, were seen, though Red Shirts and the government have both distanced themselves from them." AFP

I believe that AFP forgot to mention that those men in Black could not have killed 91 people. What is intentionally left out was that there are hundreds of soldiers and snipers firing live bullets too.

Elisabetta Polenghi, take my advise, get on with your life; what is lost is lost. Neither DSI nor CRES can be of your assistance. You will never know the truth. If you press hard enough, all you gonna get is a make up story that the looser did it (who ever the looser is at that time).

While it is clear both sides did shoot and hit people, to limit the 'ringer'

Black Shooters to some minor role is disingenuous. The obvious whole

reason for the black shooters being there was to cause, more chaos,

deaths, and cause a backlash against the army, by raising the numbers

of dead significantly. In the hopes of bringing down the government,

and simultaneously side lining the army leadership opposing the red faction.

It is quite plausible that most of the dead not killed in obvious clashes

with soldiers, were victims of this sniper attrition, that intentionally could

NOT be 'specifically blamed on anyone', but could be politically spun toward the security forces.

It is also quite clear that most Thai's have seen through this devils charade.

glad it's all clear now; was thinking the next 3 decades of debate could get boring...

thanx for stopping the presses

still curious, tho, you didn't tell us who the blacks are, i have a 'theory'

also, sage, ??????who did the shooting of Sondhi,???????? clear that one up while yer at it!

i have a 'theory' same/same whoare the Blacks

must be nice to all the 'facts' ; do enlighten us

truth is your 'theories' explain well one facet of the many sides and convuluted debate that will rage for years and years

Chantorn is correct, The Italian's sister SHOULD forget about 'finding closure' in Thailand;. to seek comfort and justice on T in T will be like to ride a dead elephant.

all of the shot survivors could be brought to the scene to calculate the direction and eleveations of the shots, for stations of the killers.

FIRST thing, they would be called liars.

2nd that would not prove who the killers were, reds snuck up there, military locations, Blacks (you don't want to know who they are!) CIA, Cambodians, Muslims, yellow shirts.

yes it's all so clear, as MUD

Edit; who did the motorcycler drive by shottings of police at check point? same style as attack on sondhi

(they get back to their lavish quarters and laugh so good and drink)

Edited August 30, 2010 by yellow1red1