CMU Fails To Provide Visa Support Documents

[femi fan]

The level of professional and emotional maturity displayed by the director at the Language Institute at CMU, and the President of CMU is pathetically lacking. They would not be qualified to manage a KFC in Bangkok.

They are an embarrasment to decent Thai people everywhere. Websites are even tonight being built to let the world know.[/size][/font]

I hope you get your justice, along with the other 300 people, and Matthew.

But do make sure that the actions of one or two individuals don't tarnish most thai people. Thai students and people love interacting with foreign people, and it's why almost every single one of them wants to learn english. Especially in chiang mai, the vast majority of thai people are most noble in their actions towards foreigners. I hope out of the whole disaster that the appropriate people are brought to book, and that no-one else gets tarnished. This problem seems simply to be the actions of a VIP who hated the success of others. It's such a sad situation, with the inadvertent fall-out between foreigner and thai in general.

I hope the general relations between two different peoples of the world can continue without being affected by the actions of one man who considers himself to be important in our human world.

[MacWalen]

As I said, this is bad news for the whole business as it will make potential students distrust other schools. But damage done already.

My understanding is that you can attend your lessons at CMU until you use them all, is that right? Some posters were writing that they were teaching Thai well. They certainly used the word "University" for marketing purposes perfectly, ' If this is a university program it must be very good- thinking logic, certainly better than private Thai schools', right? Is that how some of you thought? No school is charging for the ED visas but for the lessons, so getting a refund because you cannot extend your ED visa is going to be very hard. ED visa assistance is free, there is an element of trust involved between you and the school. 300 students is a lot of money to refund.

Walen School

www.thaiwalen.com

[rob101]

I just got this sent to me (other got it to) - Matt has asked that this be posted here as an open letter to LICMU foreign students:

Dear Students,

I recently read a letter issued by the LICMU director which, I believe, completely misrepresents the situation.

Firstly, let me try to put a few things straight:

I began work at LICMU as a English teacher in 2004. The former director and myself were in fact the very first two employees working out of a small office in the humanities building at CMU. Not long after we were joined by some Thai staff and around 7 or 8 English teachers.

In 2005, it was proposed that a building for the Language Institute, CMU, be built. There were however very little funds to do it. I suggested some educational programs for foreigners to the former Language Institute director who then suggested them to the vice president of CMU. These programs were approved by the vice president of CMU; however, there was little to no money to initiate them. I put a proposal to the vice president of CMU, who was acting as a representative of the CMU president, that I would work for no wage in exchange for a profit share of the programs if the did made money in the future.

I signed a contract of employment with the CMU president’s office. My contract was signed by the vice president of CMU. The contract stipulated that I would receive no salary or wage, but that I would enter into a profit share with CMU; however, it there was any money owing at the end of the month, I was also liable for that loss (a couple of months, I had to put in 10000 or as much as 30000 TBH). It was a contract of employment between myself and CMU. The term of the contract was six years. It was due to finish next year - 2011.

I worked for almost 18 months before any of the programs showed a profit, and supported myself by working as an English teacher at night and a part-time philosophy lecturer during the day.

The programs did begin to make a profit and quite a good profit. Enough that the original plan of the Language Institute, CMU, only taking the ground floor of the building was changed - with the now new injection of funds coming from the programs I had initiated - to taking over the entire building.

Everything was going very well for a very long time. The way it worked was that all monies for the programs were paid to LICMU and, after costs, I received my share. For many years that amounted to about 40000 TBH per month - which along with my teaching at night and with the occasional lectures for the Faculty of Social Science and the Centre for Research into Community and Sustainable Development - worked out to about 70-80000 TBH a month. LICMU was receiving around 250000 to 300000 TBH per month.

About 18 months ago, I asked to rent rooms for our program and at about the same time we began the 1 Year Thai Language Program. This program was fully approved by a sitting of the board of Chiang Mai University. I have access to the minutes made at this meeting and I will be more than happy to produce them if need be.

The name IUS/International University Services was NEVER a company name (until very recently). It was the name of the a department of LICMU. Therefore, all contracts were contracts of employment made directly between myself and the CMU president’s office.

Now we get to the recent problems ...

In July 2010, the former director was due for retirement. I was in Australia at that time. She rang me in Australia and told me that she had just been offered by the new vice president the job of running all the programs that I had set up. Out of loyalty to me and the years of hard work that she knew I had put in, she declined.

When I returned from Australia, I tried VERY hard to meet with the new LICMU director. I kept hearing from others that the new LICMU director and the new deputy director had said there would be major changes to LICMU and to the programs that I was running. I didn’t know for sure what was happening - no one would talk to me. Even NOW, I have never had one conversation with the new vice president nor the deputy director - and have only had two very brief conversations with the new director of LICMU.

My agreement with the former director and the former vice president was that anytime that they wanted me to cease running these programs, I would immediately. If anyone had said to me that they wanted the programs to stop, I would have done so without hesitation. If anyone had asked me to cease the programs, I would have also requested that we begin a very well-thought out procedure for doing so. None of this was EVER discussed with me.

The first that we knew there was a problem was around the first week of August when LICMU refused to sign visas for students. Remember - LICMU had stopped signing visas BUT LICMU was still receiving the money for those students! We were told at first that it was Thai immigration that was stopping the visas and that as soon as they were satisfied that we were not selling visas, they would begin to sign them again.

However, when Thai immigration sent a team of six to go through our records and gave us the “all-clear,” we were expecting that the signing of visas would begin again. Again and again and again, we were told by the new director of LICMU the signing of visas would begin tomorrow - tomorrow - tomorrow.

Finally, I cornered the new LICMU director and told him that if we did not have the student’s visas signed by next Wednesday that I could no longer run ILLEGAL programs, and that LICMU would have to take over the running of all the programs. When that Wednesday arrived, I had a truck ready and moving-men, my staff packed everything and we began to leave LICMU. We put signs on our offices that we could no longer run the programs and to go to the director’s office.

After some students had gone to his office, the director of LICMU ran up to me as we were loading our gear onto trucks and asked to have a meeting with me (THIS was the first time that I had talked to him at any length!!). I had a meeting with him (witnessed by about 2-3 people) in which he told me that there were too many foreigners at LICMU and that he wished to only have Thai students there -”Thai students are much less trouble,” he said. So he said that they would not be signing any visa. I said again that I could not continue the programs if students were not able to have visas. The director said that he could not give visas but that if I refunded all the money to the affected students that he would let us run all the programs till the end of December 2010. (again, this was all witnessed by others)I agreed because I thought that by running the other programs, I could use that money to refund any student who had not got a visa. And, by December I might be able to find another home for the programs. This is also when I began to form IUS into a company with the view that we could do our own visas at a future date. Until this point, I was still under my original contract of employment with LICMU.

Now this is where it gets REALLY weird ....

I saw the new director walking past a few days after our meeting. He mentioned that we would be leaving at the end of the month (September - this was the beginning of September). I said: “No, December.” He then laughed and said “Oh, no, I told the president, September, I got them mixed up! You’ll have to go at the end of September.” In spite of my protests, he told me that he had told the president at it was too late. The director then said something about farangs that does not bear repeating here (and could also get me into a lot of trouble under Thai law - even if he did in fact say it!!).

Now I went back to my staff in crisis mode. We had tens of students thinking that they were getting either their visas or a refund (to be paid with the programs that were now suddenly not running). We approached another university who one day said they were very happy to have us and sponsor our visas - the very next day changed their minds. I began to try everything to get students their visas because I now did not have the means to make the money to give them their refunds.

Finally, when everything failed, I went to the director and with all the accounts and said that if LICMU were not going to give students their visa then WE (myself and LICMU) would have to refund their money. I thought that it was fair that LICMU refund their share (60%) and I refund my share (40%). The director flatly said that LICMU would not be refunding ANY money to ANY student.

In this period, when LICMU was refusing to sign visas (although remember I did not know for sure that they were not signing visas until I had my first meeting with the director after I threatened to quit and hand over the programs to LICMU), which began early August, I currently have receipts for approximately 700000 TBH that I gave out in refunds, overstays, and travel expenses. I calculate that I still have about 500000 to pay until I reach my 40% of all students affected.

However, recently I said that I would pay ALL refunds - about 3 million in total. The main reason I am doing this is because I want to stay in Thailand. I have a Thai wife and a 4 year old daughter and I want to stay here and work here. I could not do that and just leave everyone high and dry. I also believe with all my heart that if I try and do the right thing then the money will come. I have sold my motorcycles and have applied for a personal loan in Australia. The money from these should come most of the way to paying not only my share of the refunds, but also LICMU’s share.

Currently, we still have a website online which I own. All payments for all programs - except the TEFL program - which will be running next month - has been turned off.

I have a staff of around 18 - both Thai and foreign - all of who have put their faith in me and have left LICMU to follow me into our next venture. I have a number of educational programs running at other universities (none of which require visas for foreigners) and will continue those, mainly as a further way of making the income to return all money to those students to whom it is owed.

I have given my personal commitment that all money will be refunded to students. However, this may take some time.

I will being to pay in October all of those in financial straights; then those who paid for course and received neither visa nor classes; then I will pay everyone else. I will do my very best to see that everyone is paid by the end of the year.

Finally, I am not going anywhere. I have left my phone on and will answer any time day or night. You may call me ANYTIME with any concern or question about your refund.

All the best,

Matt

[femi fan]

I was convinced, and still am convinced, that I was scammed by CMU. It's quite shocking since the only reason I signed up for the program was because it was offered by such a reputable institution. It's funny to think about what would happen to the U.S. university I work for if they pulled a stunt like this.

I'm still debating whether to write my university about the situation. They get a number of interns from CMU and while my instinct is to get back at CMU somehow, I'm not looking to affect the students themselves.

Thanks to everyone who's been posting on this thread. While I'm still taking most of it with a grain of salt, it's the only information I have at this point. Thaivisa has proven it's great value once again.[/size][/font]

Perhaps we can say if you were scammed, it was not by CMU itself, rather the actions of one or two individuals representing an institution that has been around far far longer than this person who is acting so disgracefully.

I do hope that CMU retains its reputation, that you and all the other students involved get to carry on with your studies and continue with your fruitful relationships with the common thai people, and that matthew gets to resume his beneficial input to society here in chiang mai.

And that this person who has blinded himself with negative emotions gets his justice. I'll say it again, what a disaster for human relations, and all caused by just one or two individuals. Time and time again this happens in our human world.

I fear CMU is going to lose a lot of its reputation quite quickly if this is not resolved, and seen to be resolved, in a fair way to all.

[happyrobert]

The level of professional and emotional maturity displayed by the director at the Language Institute at CMU, and the President of CMU is pathetically lacking. They would not be qualified to manage a KFC in Bangkok.

They are an embarrasment to decent Thai people everywhere. Websites are even tonight being built to let the world know.[/size][/font]

I hope you get your justice, along with the other 300 people, and Matthew.

But do make sure that the actions of one or two individuals don't tarnish most thai people. Thai students and people love interacting with foreign people, and it's why almost every single one of them wants to learn english. Especially in chiang mai, the vast majority of thai people are most noble in their actions towards foreigners. I hope out of the whole disaster that the appropriate people are brought to book, and that no-one else gets tarnished. This problem seems simply to be the actions of a VIP who hated the success of others. It's such a sad situation, with the inadvertent fall-out between foreigner and thai in general.

I hope the general relations between two different peoples of the world can continue without being affected by the actions of one man who considers himself to be important in our human world.

Well, you know, we all try to look as each person and event as individual, and I do in this case, which is why I said their actions were an "embarrasment to decent Thai people everywhere". I have let many things "slide" in life, but these two guys really need to be held accountable for the sake of CMU's rep and Thai folks everywhere.

[MacWalen]

Walen here.

I am sad to hear that CMU has treated students this way. It is bad for the whole business. It is a long thread but basically CMU were audited by the Ministry of Education and were found not good enough to provide student visa support so their paperwork is not recognized by the immigration office. Walen was audited about the same time but as things are run strictly according to the exact government guidelines we had no problems at all. Those who have not visited our school in Chiangmai yet and live there please do come to see for yourself. We did not always get a fair coverage on thaivisa.com by some who do not like us so much however we strive to provide the highest quality of service and certainly provide the most reliable ED visa support for our students.

Till date we had no problems at any of of the Walen schools. One reason is that we indeed teach Thai and not just pretend we do but really hope to make money on ED visa support. This is our 10th year of doing business in Thailand and each year we are becoming more and more popular so we must be doing something right.

Walen School - Great method and reliable ED visa support

www.thaiwalen.com

And you are exactly the reason why I moved all the way from Koh Chang to Chiang Mai rather than go to your school in BKK. I went to immigration here, spoke with the head honcho and was informed that IUS absoloutely was found to be in compliance with all rules. (CMU was not audited, bonehead. Get your facts straight.)He told me the only reason my visa could not be processed is because the the University refused to sign the letters.

I think you just lost a huge amount of business for your school. Can you say, "classified job search"?

I don't believe I need to say much more here, your letter is so transparent I can see the logo on the back of my laptop.

Dear Sir, I run a language school for a living for a long time, if there is any foreign expert on ED visas in Thailand it must be certainly me as no other school has as many students as we do. I simply stated facts, I do not write nonsense when disusing or expressing an opinion on a serious matter. If you want you are welcome to talk to our school manager or visit the ministry of education in Chiangmai in person. CMU Thai school is not having the right to sign papers for the immigration as that right has been taken away by the Ministry of Education, you did not want to trust Walen, your business, but please think before you challenge my knowledge of the situation. If you still do not want to study at Walen we do not mind, there are many good schools out there, but what happened is bad for all the schools, bad for our business, I am participating in this forum and hopefully contributing something of value as you do too.

Walen School

www.thaiwalen.com

[femi fan]

Well, you know, we all try to look as each person and event as individual, and I do in this case, which is why I said their actions were an "embarrasment to decent Thai people everywhere". I have let many things "slide" in life, but these two guys really need to be held accountable for the sake of CMU's rep and Thai folks everywhere.[/size][/font][/b]

I fully agree with you, and did so before i just read matthew's post. I'm afraid that the sense of injustice will only increase even further now, and it is sincerely hoped that a just reaction happens at the end of the day.

It is so depressing when you get people considering themselves so important in life that they can ride roughshod over others. Such depression only lifes when justice prevails.

Good luck to matthew and all those who are hurting at the hands of these two or three people who are acting so terribly in accordance with the general laws of harmonious humanity.

[thaiguy55]

Walen here.

I am sad to hear that CMU has treated students this way. It is bad for the whole business. It is a long thread but basically CMU were audited by the Ministry of Education and were found not good enough to provide student visa support so their paperwork is not recognized by the immigration office. Walen was audited about the same time but as things are run strictly according to the exact government guidelines we had no problems at all. Those who have not visited our school in Chiangmai yet and live there please do come to see for yourself. We did not always get a fair coverage on thaivisa.com by some who do not like us so much however we strive to provide the highest quality of service and certainly provide the most reliable ED visa support for our students.

Till date we had no problems at any of of the Walen schools. One reason is that we indeed teach Thai and not just pretend we do but really hope to make money on ED visa support. This is our 10th year of doing business in Thailand and each year we are becoming more and more popular so we must be doing something right.

Walen School - Great method and reliable ED visa support

www.thaiwalen.com

Walen,

Thanks for posting this. You just made my list of language schools to choose from shorter by one.

[happyrobert]

I am/was a student at the one year Thai Language course, until two hours ago.

I moved at great expense from Koh Chang for the sole purpose of attending the Thai course at CMU. I did this for two main reasons: 1) they taught reading and writing also, from the outset, 2) it was a university, not some private school that might not be there next month. I paid the course fee of 30,000 IN ADVANCE, leased a house for one year, bought a motorbike and had a 100% attendance record for the past 6 weeks. I felt if I were living full time in Thailand, it would be disrespectful not to learn their language. They apparently don't appreciate this fact.

The facts are this: the Thais in charge of all this at CMU and the Thai director at the language institute hate farangs. The Thai students know this, too. Furthermore, the farang "owners" at IUS (International University Services) were simply too sucessful, taking away a lot of business from local Thai owned language schools. Thais don't appreciate that too much. The IUS course is excellent and the instructors are very qualified.

Consider this: all of this started just days - yes, days - after enrollemnt and payment of the new term, with 60% going to the University. Then, out of nowhere, no visas anymore...not wait until next term, but ex - post - facto - stop - signing - those - farang - visas - and - keep - their - money - get - off - our - campus - or - we'll - arrest - you. I had to leave the country. Upon return one week later, CMU had "changed their mind", no problem now. Then tonight we are told go home, get lost, you have two days left on your visas. If you come to our office, we'll call the police.

Then, someone who lacked the testicles and professionalism to sign the letter that was issued on CMU stationary, tore into IUS (the farang owners of the school) about how dishonest they are - also attacking the character of Dr. Matt Kay. The letter is just about the most libelous piece of BS I've ever seen. Virtually every statement is either misleading or an ouright lie. It's insulting to my inteligence.No great wonder the Thai writer "neglected" to sign it. IUS has many programs of different types throughout Thailand. The letter, posted on the internet, was sure to "advise" everyone not to enroll in any courses anywhere operated by IUS. An obvious effort to financially cripple IUS into collapse. Pathetic.

So, CMU took my money and not only refuses ANY refund, but threatens to arrest anyone who comes into the offices at CMU, regardless of how polite, calm and patient the student is. This has affected 300 students, do the math!

As for Dr. Matt Kay, I called him this evening on his cell phone. He answered immediately and stated that he would take out loans if necessary to refund the student's tuition, even the 60% stolen by CMU, by the end of October.

The level of professional and emotional maturity displayed by the director at the Language Institute at CMU, and the President of CMU is pathetically lacking. They would not be qualified to manage a KFC in Bangkok.

They are an embarrasment to decent Thai people everywhere. Websites are even tonight being built to let the world know.

As I said, this is bad news for the whole business as it will make potential students distrust other schools. But damage done already.

My understanding is that you can attend your lessons at CMU until you use them all, is that right? Some posters were writing that they were teaching Thai well. They certainly used the word "University" for marketing purposes perfectly, ' If this is a university program it must be very good- thinking logic, certainly better than private Thai schools', right? Is that how some of you thought? No school is charging for the ED visas but for the lessons, so getting a refund because you cannot extend your ED visa is going to be very hard. ED visa assistance is free, there is an element of trust involved between you and the school. 300 students is a lot of money to refund.

Walen School

www.thaiwalen.com

]Dude, you're killing me here. Read the thread....school cancelled, visas denied, money NOT refunded. No more school. It's called Consumer Fraud. Refunds are not because we can't get a visa, it's because we only attended 15% of the course, got booted out, and no refund. Typical...

Keep digging yourself deeper, my friend.

[MacWalen]

Walen here.

I am sad to hear that CMU has treated students this way. It is bad for the whole business. It is a long thread but basically CMU were audited by the Ministry of Education and were found not good enough to provide student visa support so their paperwork is not recognized by the immigration office. Walen was audited about the same time but as things are run strictly according to the exact government guidelines we had no problems at all. Those who have not visited our school in Chiangmai yet and live there please do come to see for yourself. We did not always get a fair coverage on thaivisa.com by some who do not like us so much however we strive to provide the highest quality of service and certainly provide the most reliable ED visa support for our students.

Till date we had no problems at any of of the Walen schools. One reason is that we indeed teach Thai and not just pretend we do but really hope to make money on ED visa support. This is our 10th year of doing business in Thailand and each year we are becoming more and more popular so we must be doing something right.

Walen School - Great method and reliable ED visa support

www.thaiwalen.com

Walen,

Thanks for posting this. You just made my list of language schools to choose from shorter by one.

Apologies if you do not agree with some parts but I stated facts, can you dispute them? And of course, there are many good schools, you do not have to chose Walen, but others will consider our school. This is how we are, cannot please everyone no matter how hard we try. At least you know we are there if you needed us. We are getting of the topic. Back to CMU.

Walen School

www.thaiwalen.com

[richard10365]

Walen here.

I am sad to hear that CMU has treated students this way. It is bad for the whole business. It is a long thread but basically CMU were audited by the Ministry of Education and were found not good enough to provide student visa support so their paperwork is not recognized by the immigration office. Walen was audited about the same time but as things are run strictly according to the exact government guidelines we had no problems at all. Those who have not visited our school in Chiangmai yet and live there please do come to see for yourself. We did not always get a fair coverage on thaivisa.com by some who do not like us so much however we strive to provide the highest quality of service and certainly provide the most reliable ED visa support for our students.

Till date we had no problems at any of of the Walen schools. One reason is that we indeed teach Thai and not just pretend we do but really hope to make money on ED visa support. This is our 10th year of doing business in Thailand and each year we are becoming more and more popular so we must be doing something right.

Walen School - Great method and reliable ED visa support

www.thaiwalen.com

And you are exactly the reason why I moved all the way from Koh Chang to Chiang Mai rather than go to your school in BKK. I went to immigration here, spoke with the head honcho and was informed that IUS absoloutely was found to be in compliance with all rules. (CMU was not audited, bonehead. Get your facts straight.)He told me the only reason my visa could not be processed is because the the University refused to sign the letters.

I think you just lost a huge amount of business for your school. Can you say, "classified job search"?

I don't believe I need to say much more here, your letter is so transparent I can see the logo on the back of my laptop.

Dear Sir, I run a language school for a living for a long time, if there is any foreign expert on ED visas in Thailand it must be certainly me as no other school has as many students as we do. I simply stated facts, I do not write nonsense when disusing or expressing an opinion on a serious matter. If you want you are welcome to talk to our school manager or visit the ministry of education in Chiangmai in person. CMU Thai school is not having the right to sign papers for the immigration as that right has been taken away by the Ministry of Education, you did not want to trust Walen, your business, but please think before you challenge my knowledge of the situation. If you still do not want to study at Walen we do not mind, there are many good schools out there, but what happened is bad for all the schools, bad for our business, I am participating in this forum and hopefully contributing something of value as you do too.

Walen School

www.thaiwalen.com

There is some expertise at Payap University as well as we also have over 400 foreigners studying there as well. Either Walen or Payap would be an excellent choice when considering another school to continue studying Thai.

We already have one student from LICMU who has enrolled and is studying Thai. He came to Payap as soon as the situation started. While the entire situation is very unfortunate, don't wait until time runs out before you start looking for a new place to study.

[Tywais]

Let's stop the bickering please and get back on topic. Also, posts with non standard font formatting and modifying quotes are not allowed and have been reverted.

[happyrobert]

Well, folks, it's quite obvious that this is a very hot potato (Walen: "Hot Potato": slang for awkward matter that is hotly contested) in which someone is going to come out badly burned. I've made my secret guess as to who, but only time will tell. It's not just going to die off on its own and go away.

In the meantime, sure would be nice if all the really fine, intelligent, kind young students at CMU who have enjoyed and benefited from us nasty old farangs free English lessons and Lattes would take a stand and engage in appropriate, legal and gentle but persuasive protest against this offense.

[MacWalen]

Walen here.

I'm sure you do a good job, but this is probably not quite the best time to be coming across as being smug, even if you're not intending to appear this way.

And for the 300 students, how do you expect them to second guess that such an old institution as CMU, with all the authority it is invested in by the thai government (being the biggest university in the north of the country, the oldest, and being a government public one) might have problems on the auditing front?

It does seem pretty clear that a VIP has gotten angry, and is now punishing anybody in his firing line. It's a very sorry story that so many people in life can be so inconvenienced in time, money, and goodwill by the actions of effectively one person.

You might do well to simply offer your services as a way out for those people stranded by the actions of a man who lost his face somewhere.

No offense meant.

[heybruce]

My friend just received this - apparently it has been emailed to all 1 Year Thai Language & CEP students:

Dear 1 Year Thai Language students & Cultural Exchange Program participants,

Firstly, let begin by saying how sorry I am for the interruption to your studies and placements, your visa uncertainties, and for any financial losses you may have incurred.

Secondly, let me explain to you what has happened briefly and how this situation arose:

For a number of years, IUS/International University Services has administered in partnership with LICMU a number of programs for foreigners. Some of these programs have been running for as long as 5 years or more. The nature of the partnership between IUS and LICMU was a 40% (IUS) - 60% (LICMU) split of profits after costs. Recently, it was decided by the incoming new director of LICMU that they did not wish continue any more programs for foreigners at LICMU. Unfortunately, this decision and the procedures by which this transition could be smoothly conducted was never discussed with IUS/International University Services by anyone from either LICMU nor CMU. Instead, what happened was that LICMU ceased to sign any visas necessary for foreign students to study and gave notice that all LICMU classrooms for foreign programs would no longer be available after 30 September 2010.

IUS tried on a number of occasions tried very hard to convince LICMU that this was not a workable solution, and one that would cause much hardship to our students. However, once IUS realized that there would be no change to these decisions, IUS began to try to solve the situation in some other way, and when that could not be done, IUS began to refund money, pay for overstays, and pay bus fares and air tickets for those students most immediately affected. We then began to try and find other places which may sponsor our students visas. We were able to secure an agreement with another university in Chiang Mai. However, suddenly, and so far, inexplicably, that agreement was discontinued by the alternative university.

So this is how it stands at the moment:

1. LICMU will still not sign visas.
2. LICMU has said there are to be absolutely no classes for foreigners at LICMU after 30 September 2010.
3. IUS has exhausted all its funds in the refunding of courses fees and other expenses due to students because of lack of either a visa or classes.
4. LICMU is refusing to refund any money to students.

For the last few weeks, as the director of IUS, I have felt that I was justified in telling affected students that the rest of the refunds must be now paid by LICMU (from LICMU's 60%) and that IUS had met its responsibilities by making payments well exceeding the 40% of income that it had received.

I was wrong.

In this type of situation, where one partner (LICMU) refuses to meet their obligations to students, it was wrong of me to think that that excuses IUS (or myself) from its continuing responsibilities to our students. It was wrong of me to allow affected students to get handed around like a "hot potato" from IUS to LICMU and back again, with no one taking responsibility for the situation that students - by absolutely no fault of their own - had found themselves in. I am very sorry and I will do everything in my power to rectify my mistake.

Therefore, IUS (and myself) from this point forward takes full (and personal) responsibility for the further refunding of any fair claim from students either in the Cultural Exchange Program or the 1 Year Thai Language Program.

IUS (and myself) will need some time to refund all monies owed to all students (there are currently close to 300 affected students). However, I believe that IUS can clear ALL monies owing within 180 days.

Please email at: ****email removed per forum rules*****. In your email, if you could tell me what you believe you are owed and why, I will compile a list of all monies owing to our students. Once I have a total amount, I will then be able to work out when you may receive your refund. I will then email you with the latest date that you can expect to receive your refund.

IUS begin to replenish its funds during October. Therefore, students can expect the first of their payments to be made by IUS during October.

Again, I very very sorry for the inconvenience and hardship caused to all our students; and I give you my promise that I will do everything I possibly can to resolve the situation honorably and responsibly and in the shortest time possible.

Your Sincerely,

Matthew Kay

Director

IUS/International University Services<br clear="all">

Unfortunately the above was not e-mailed to the 1 Year CMULI students, neither I nor any of the many students and teachers I talked to earlier this evening have received any notification from CMU Language Institute or IUS. We are hearing and reading from second hand sources that we will be in Thailand illegally starting on Friday, but we have not received any official notification.

[RKO10]

Hey everyone,

I noticed that the Director of LICMU, Mr. Rien, is getting demonized with all the worst stereotypes of corrupt Asian people in power. I just want to say that I met with him today, and he seemed like a decent guy. He was happy to answer all of my questions. I even asked him if the LICMU had a problem with farangs, and he said that he was not xenophobic. After hearing the stories of Rien and Matt, I think that Rien's story makes more sense. The program was being run in a somewhat flaky way, so I'm not entirely surprised that they failed their audit with Immigration. However, as hagler said, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

People tend to throw around a lot of "facts" on this thread. I'd like you to ask yourselves, what have you seen with your own eyes? Have you seen any bank statements, audit results, or minutes from meetings? If so, I'd love to see some kind of proof posted on this thread.

[RogerL]

I think we must do everything possible to to effectively communicate what has happened at CMU in order to raise the level of public awareness. I would suggest in doing so, try to separate out your own personal emotions. Try to present the facts as you understand them. Find the audience who can bring appropriate and continued pressure to bear on CMU.

Some potential audiences to present your concerns to:

Friends and Family - who knows who they may know that can influence actions/decisions

Your Embassy and/or Consul General

Internationally distributed newspapers and magazines

Television stations

The educational institutions in your home country that have collaborative agreements with CMU

Companies in your home country that have a presence in Thailand

Elected representative at national level in your country where laws are made regarding educational visas for visiting foreign students

Twitter/Facebook/Other social networking media

Personal web sites

Blogs

Do not go away mad - GO DO SOMETHING!

[heybruce]

Warning .....if anyone has received a letter in Thai from the LI director or his staff, get it translated before you take it anywhere,

The letter from CMULI director says (heavily paraphrased)

"

Dear Director of Immigration

<student name & other details> enrolled in the CMU <program name> via IUS from <program start date>.

CMU will no longer contract services from IUS after 30 Sep 2553 so please consider cancelling this student's ED visa from that date.

<signature block>

"

It's not pleasant, but its pretty straightforward... no hidden nasties.

I am one of many CMU Language Institute students who have not received a letter, an e-mail, a phone call or anything else, just second hand information and what I read on ThaiVisa. Can someone please tell me where I can find a copy of this letter?

[rob101]

Hey everyone,

I noticed that the Director of LICMU, Mr. Rien, is getting demonized with all the worst stereotypes of corrupt Asian people in power. I just want to say that I met with him today, and he seemed like a decent guy. He was happy to answer all of my questions. I even asked him if the LICMU had a problem with farangs, and he said that he was not xenophobic. After hearing the stories of Rien and Matt, I think that Rien's story makes more sense. The program was being run in a somewhat flaky way, so I'm not entirely surprised that they failed their audit with Immigration. However, as hagler said, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

People tend to throw around a lot of "facts" on this thread. I'd like you to ask yourselves, what have you seen with your own eyes? Have you seen any bank statements, audit results, or minutes from meetings? If so, I'd love to see some kind of proof posted on this thread.

Listen don' sucked in by that Rien he is an extraodinarily good liar - and, BTW, I was a student in two of the programs run at LICMU and I thought they were very well run - could you post some "proof" that they were run in a "flaky" way - thanks - would love to see it.

[happyrobert]

Hey everyone,

I noticed that the Director of LICMU, Mr. Rien, is getting demonized with all the worst stereotypes of corrupt Asian people in power. I just want to say that I met with him today, and he seemed like a decent guy. He was happy to answer all of my questions. I even asked him if the LICMU had a problem with farangs, and he said that he was not xenophobic. After hearing the stories of Rien and Matt, I think that Rien's story makes more sense. The program was being run in a somewhat flaky way, so I'm not entirely surprised that they failed their audit with Immigration. However, as hagler said, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

People tend to throw around a lot of "facts" on this thread. I'd like you to ask yourselves, what have you seen with your own eyes? Have you seen any bank statements, audit results, or minutes from meetings? If so, I'd love to see some kind of proof posted on this thread.

Are/were you a student at LICMU? I f not , why did you speak with the director? If so, how did you manage to se him? Why is it that all of us who tried to do that were refused. My demeanor was calm, patient and smiling. I was groomed well and nicely dressed. I, and others, have been told since mid-August that we could not see the director, nor anyone in the President's Office.

[heybruce]

Hey everyone,

I noticed that the Director of LICMU, Mr. Rien, is getting demonized with all the worst stereotypes of corrupt Asian people in power. I just want to say that I met with him today, and he seemed like a decent guy. He was happy to answer all of my questions. I even asked him if the LICMU had a problem with farangs, and he said that he was not xenophobic. After hearing the stories of Rien and Matt, I think that Rien's story makes more sense. The program was being run in a somewhat flaky way, so I'm not entirely surprised that they failed their audit with Immigration. However, as hagler said, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

People tend to throw around a lot of "facts" on this thread. I'd like you to ask yourselves, what have you seen with your own eyes? Have you seen any bank statements, audit results, or minutes from meetings? If so, I'd love to see some kind of proof posted on this thread.

He may be a nice guy but he is clearly an incompetent administrator; I and every other student I've talked to are still waiting for some kind of official information regarding our classes and visas. If we are all going to be in Thailand illegally starting on Friday, shouldn't the Director of the organization that arranged our originally valid visas tell us?

[rob101]

yeah RKO10 - Rien's definately not "flaky"

Edited September 28, 2010 by rob101

[RKO10]

yes I too was told the same thing when I asked to see either the LiCMU director or the president - and how on earth could you possible think that Rien is doing such a great job and the other mob is doing a "flaky" job - r u serious - RKO10 you sound like one of those guys who probably worked for some kinda government agency back home - would I be right?

I am/was a student at LICMU. I went in today, and he was sitting outside talking to another student. I asked to speak with him. I had to wait for 15 minutes, but he was willing to talk with me. I don't know why others were turned away.

I am not saying that his behavior is exemplary. I think that he should be doing more to support the students by getting us set up with other language programs and getting us new visas. I also think that he should have communicated with the students earlier, but perhaps this was because he didn't know our email addresses. His story is that he cannot sponsor anymore visas because Immigration won't let him, not that he is refusing. I don't think he is doing a great job. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's the evil tyrant people are making him out to be.

Let's see, flakiness in the program. I can't give real proof, just my experiences, so believe them if you want to. The LICMU has forgotten to return emails from me and and another student. They have lost the paperwork of the same student and me. When I began the course, I wasn't given any information about the grades or attendance records that were being kept and then sent to Immigration when my visa was renewed. I was also never told what the minimum grades and attendance records were to maintain my visa. I consider all that flaky behavior.

I would really like to see these bank statements and records that have been promised though. Also, some evidence of the 60/40 split in profits (that Rien has disputed) would settle some doubts.

[happyrobert]

Hey everyone,

I noticed that the Director of LICMU, Mr. Rien, is getting demonized with all the worst stereotypes of corrupt Asian people in power. I just want to say that I met with him today, and he seemed like a decent guy. He was happy to answer all of my questions. I even asked him if the LICMU had a problem with farangs, and he said that he was not xenophobic. After hearing the stories of Rien and Matt, I think that Rien's story makes more sense. The program was being run in a somewhat flaky way, so I'm not entirely surprised that they failed their audit with Immigration. However, as hagler said, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

People tend to throw around a lot of "facts" on this thread. I'd like you to ask yourselves, what have you seen with your own eyes? Have you seen any bank statements, audit results, or minutes from meetings? If so, I'd love to see some kind of proof posted on this thread.

Are/were you a student at LICMU? I f not , why did you speak with the director? If so, how did you manage to se him? Why is it that all of us who tried to do that were refused. My demeanor was calm, patient and smiling. I was groomed well and nicely dressed. I, and others, have been told since mid-August that we could not see the director, nor anyone in the President's Office.

Hmmm, no answer. Here's the FACTS, Bud, 1) my contract and receipt are with CMU, not IUS/Matt; 2) they took my 30,000 baht and four, count'm, four (4) days later said, "oops, no more visas, and, oops, no refunds; 5) Matt compensated me in full, hotel, flight, overstay, temp visa run to Vientienne when CMU was playing games in August; 6) I am still out 30,000 baht plus all kinds of other expenses; 7) CMU will not calmly discuss the matter, take phone calls, return polite e-mail inquiries, or schedule appointments.......want to know why anything happens? Follow the money, dude.

[happyrobert]

We wern't turned away, we were ignored by him and the Office of the President. No response to any of my polite requests in which I left a copy of my passport, CMU receipt for fees paid, phone number, e-mail and also the phone number of a native Thai speaker. This was done on numerous occasions over several weeks. Apparently you got lucky bumping into him like that.

On my recon trip in July to CMU, the girl in Matt's office explained to me exactly how much time a student could miss and cautioned me to not go over that amount.

His (Rein's) story that immigration "won't let him" conflicts with immigrations statements to me. Further, look closely at the "official" document from LICMU- nowhere does it say that immigration will not approve visas. The guy is full of caca.

Edited September 28, 2010 by happyrobert

[drfang]

My sympathies to those who have lost money and are in limbo.

There are some students such as myself who enrolled early this year , and received visas without any problem. My situation is that i was in Thailand on a 90 day "NON IMM", and enrolled at CMU, and "converted the "NON IMM" to a "Permission to stay ". Thus my Permission to stay does not expire untill January next year. I recently left the the Kingdom for a week, with a reentry permit, and thus , do not have to report to Immigration till December, 90 days from my return to the Kingdom.

Question # one is, When i report to Immigration in December will I find that my "permission to stay" has been revoked.

Question #2 is, am i correct in assumming that there will be no classes starting at the Far eastern University in October.

Thanks

DrF

[heybruce]

My sympathies to those who have lost money and are in limbo.

There are some students such as myself who enrolled early this year , and received visas without any problem. My situation is that i was in Thailand on a 90 day "NON IMM", and enrolled at CMU, and "converted the "NON IMM" to a "Permission to stay ". Thus my Permission to stay does not expire untill January next year. I recently left the the Kingdom for a week, with a reentry permit, and thus , do not have to report to Immigration till December, 90 days from my return to the Kingdom.

Question # one is, When i report to Immigration in December will I find that my "permission to stay" has been revoked.

Question #2 is, am i correct in assumming that there will be no classes starting at the Far eastern University in October.

Thanks

DrF

Question 1: LICMU has sent a letter to Immigration telling them all our student visas are invalid, so if your permission to stay is based on the student visa, it is definitely revoked. I am afraid that if I wait until November 26 for my 90 day report and you wait until December we will be told we have been in Thailand illegally since October 1. If I go to Immigration tomorrow to find out I may be told that I have to leave the country before Friday. I also don't know how my now invalid student visa status affects my options for another visa. CMU is useless, they haven't even notified the students that the program was canceled.

Question 2: Far Eastern is definitely out. There are no more Thai lessons after Thursday.

[Maestro]

I think this topic should be under Chiang Mai category rather than here....

Thank you for your suggestion, but we keep all topics related to visas and extensions of stay in the forum "Thai visas, residency and work permits" even if a topic may be about just one particular immigration region.

[drfang]

My sympathies to those who have lost money and are in limbo.

There are some students such as myself who enrolled early this year , and received visas without any problem. My situation is that i was in Thailand on a 90 day "NON IMM", and enrolled at CMU, and "converted the "NON IMM" to a "Permission to stay ". Thus my Permission to stay does not expire untill January next year. I recently left the the Kingdom for a week, with a reentry permit, and thus , do not have to report to Immigration till December, 90 days from my return to the Kingdom.

Question # one is, When i report to Immigration in December will I find that my "permission to stay" has been revoked.

Question #2 is, am i correct in assumming that there will be no classes starting at the Far eastern University in October.

Thanks

DrF

Question 1: LICMU has sent a letter to Immigration telling them all our student visas are invalid, so if your permission to stay is based on the student visa, it is definitely revoked. I am afraid that if I wait until November 26 for my 90 day report and you wait until December we will be told we have been in Thailand illegally since October 1. If I go to Immigration tomorrow to find out I may be told that I have to leave the country before Friday. I also don't know how my now invalid student visa status affects my options for another visa. CMU is useless, they haven't even notified the students that the program was canceled.

Question 2: Far Eastern is definitely out. There are no more Thai lessons after Thursday.

Thanks for the reply, It seems that we have been well and truly stiched up by CMU. It would be "nice" to have some official notification about our visa/permission to stay status from CMU. I think my/our best option is to stay away from immigration, untill we have some official communication, and quietly slip out of the Kingdom before our 90 day reporting dates, and return on whatever visa we can get abroad. I share your concern about possible ramifications for future visa applications.

regards DrF

Edited September 28, 2010 by drfang

[hagler]

If someone offers to refund monies for something that they are not responsible for they are either one of 2 things...

a fool

hiding something

the truth is still out there.