CMU Fails To Provide Visa Support Documents

[gonzoham]

If someone offers to refund monies for something that they are not responsible for they are either one of 2 things...

a fool

hiding something

the truth is still out there.

Do you have money/services/visa owing? Do you want to enlighten us with 'the truth'. I fail to see the point of your post, it lacks clarity and purpose.

[Austeyr]

If someone offers to refund monies for something that they are not responsible for they are either one of 2 things...

a fool

hiding something

the truth is still out there.

Dr Kay is doing his best to try and fix the problem. He is not trying to hide anything. Threats from Rien of, how did he put it, "unguesting" him from Thailand when he has a Wife and kids really doesn't leave a foreigner here with much recourse. And Walen, using this thread to promote your own language school is disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Loaded]

If someone offers to refund monies for something that they are not responsible for they are either one of 2 things...

a fool

hiding something

the truth is still out there.

Dr Kay is doing his best to try and fix the problem. He is not trying to hide anything. Threats from Rien of, how did he put it, "unguesting" him from Thailand when he has a Wife and kids really doesn't leave a foreigner here with much recourse. And Walen, using this thread to promote your own language school is disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Before 'Dr' Matt came to the LOS he was a bit-part actor in Australian soap operas. Google as the truth is out there.

Coming to Thailand 'Matt' became 'Dr Matt'. However:

***Here’s an earlier version of what you posted that was reported to the public for years. Due to heavy advertising, including on Ajarn, this is more than common knowledge:

Who are the CMU team? /

TEFL Certificate Course Chiang Mai University – About Us

Dr. Matthew John Kay (Matt)

International Programs Director

Nationality: Australian

Education: BA (Hons) Philosophy, Ph.D, University of Queensland, Australia.

Brief Bio:

TEFL Certificate Program Director Dr. Matthew John Kay has been teaching academic English and thesis writing at the Language Institute since 2004. A special instructor in philosophy, he also lectures in European philosophy for the Department of Sociology’s Ph.D program in sustainable development.***

Then...

***Below is the response I received from a reference librarian at the University of Queensland:

From: [email protected]

Subject: Library Question – Answer [Question #4001340]

Hello T

Thank you for contacting Ask a Librarian.

I could not find a dissertation for Matthew John Kay but there is one for a Matthew Howell Kay in 2001.

Author Kay, Matthew Howell.

Title Geostatistical integration of conventional and downhole geophysical data in the metalliferous mine environment / by Matthew Howell Kay.

If you need further information you can contact the UQ Graduate School http://www.uq.edu.au/grad-school/

Kind regards

Liz Reaves***

Google as the truth is out there.

CMU LI has claimed in their public notice that there is a police investigation into "a number of business practice activities which have occurred with International University Services...". CMU LI also advises people affected by this to contact their embassy or consulate.

From post 150 posted yesterday on this thread:

***Unfortunately, it looks like at least a few people were caught in the most recent shuffles and paid for classes within the past two weeks. They have not even been given 1 class! The Phuping Police station, just outside the main entrance of the University on Huay Kaew Rd., is taking reports. Please take the time to bring any paperwork that you have and make a report against whoever you paid, or think you paid. The officer in charge of this case is: Chalearmwut Sangriruang. If at all possible, please also bring a translator, or call the tourist police to send one for you.***

No opinions from me just the results of some Googling to give a little perspective.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Lite Beer

[rob101]

I have it on VERY good authority that the prz of cmu is completely freaked out by the threat of personally being sued! There are many many Thai CMU staff and admin who detest this prz and his position is very tenous - this issue has cause those factions that dislike prz to have some real ammunition and the prz is frightened of any idea of foreigners personally suing him - some students went to the police station and took out a report on the prz (anyone can do this and the police station near zoo) and then went to the prz office and told staff that they had taken given a police report against prz and that they would be personally suing the prz - if enough people do this - i would guarantee you are going to see a reverse on this visa decision that the prz took and you might even see classes reinstated

[Mario2008]

If you are on an extension of stay and don't leave the country on the 30th, you are on overstay and will be fined 500 baht a day with a maximum of 20,000 baht.

As has been suggested, getting a double entry tourist visa in Vientiane will give you time to sort things out. Immigration can only give you a 7 day extension of stay.

[virtualtraveller]

CLARIFICATION:

I am personally acquainted with the director (Matt) of the language institute, and although I suspect there's lots of murky details I'm unaware of, I can confirm some things as first hand information. Lots of speculation in the comments above which are simply not true.

1. The language institute at CMU is an independently run organisation but the courses are endorsed by CMU, the premises belong to CMU, CMU staff and former directors are on the board for language institute, and CMU takes a substantial cut of the profits. I'm not sure what the company ownership is but it is managed by a farang.

2.Recently the rector of CMU gave the director short notice that they no longer wish to continue hosting the program, this began with a series of meetings regarding the future of the program some months ago but recently the director abruptly gave 1 month for them to move out. I cannot say if there was a reason why but the director assures me everything was above board at their end. Crucially, CMU derives significant profit from offering these courses to farangs, and it is filling a building that was built 3 years ago but was never successfully used.

3. Furthermore, I'm told that all the CMU's share of the profit derived from advanced payments for year long course and deposits has been remitted to the university already, and that they are unwilling to refund portions of this to the language institute. The director told me a week ago that he would honour all deposits and advance fees, since the language 'company' had good capital reserves, even if CMU refuse to refund their equity. However it's unclear what happens if you want a partial or full refund should you be unhappy with the course being offered by the new university. He's a person of good character and I'd trust his word, he's got a family here and settled in Chiang Mai. Unfortunately it's all unfolding rather quickly and he's probably inundated with calls and as yet has no clear answers from the authorities involved, so he's not taking calls.

4. Meanwhile the director has been working hard (I can't even raise him on the phone) to move the language program to another university in Chiang Mai, this he has done as there is a private university quite willing to take on this lucrative business as a partner and to give the courses a university endorsement. They are not as prestigious as CMU but perhaps more reliable since they are motivated by profit while CMU is a state institution that can make counter-productive decisions like the one above.

5. Courses are set to move in early October, but from what I've read here and heard from someone on the course, CMU are now obfuscating the process and causing trouble.

6. The business of courses here has become a lucrative one in recent years because it enables farangs to get a visa. Up until now it has been approved by immigration, though I'm lead to believe they have been 'taken care of'. None-the-less it appears that these have become a victim of their own success, and someone became spooked by so many farang getting study visas. (anecdotally I heard that the rector's daughter was shocked to walk into the language institute one day and discover she was vastly outnumbered by farang, so she complained). I can only assume that someone's toes were stepped on and they've raised the issue with a big noodle who has instructed immigration to stop co-operating and causing the university to dump the program since it was becoming a hot potato.

UPDATE:

This morning I got news from someone on the Thai course that immigration had arrested some of the 300 people on the course, I don't know any further details.

[RKO10]

Matt's story: Classes stopped because of racism on the part of the LICMU director and the CMU President.

Rien's story: Classes stopped because of the program could not pass an audit by Immigration.

I think Rien's story makes a little more sense, based on the facts I have at the moment. I will call Immigration to see what they say. The number of actual facts that I have in this case are very low. All I have are emails and statements from two sides of the conflict. I haven't seen any supporting documents from either side, such as bank statements, meeting minutes, or audit results. I doubt that I will. I notice that nobody has produced them on this forum either. This should probably be a police matter. I've met with Matt once. I'll give him credit for communicating with us better than Rien. However, I don't have any reason to believe many details from his side of the story. It seems like a lot of people on this forum seem to think that Matt is a champion of the students, while Rien is an evil autocrat. At this point, I think that they are both to blame. Don't believe everything you hear from either side. If you are a student, I would not take sides with either Matt or Rien. Just save your own a**, communicate with other students, your embassy, and anyone else, and keep searching for the truth.

[electracm]

I think this topic should be under Chiang Mai category rather than here....

Thank you for your suggestion, but we keep all topics related to visas and extensions of stay in the forum "Thai visas, residency and work permits" even if a topic may be about just one particular immigration region.

Please do note that, specifically in the case of the Cultural Exchange Program, this is about a large number of participants who either came to Chiang Mai or were already resident here who made a lifestyle choice to give of their experience and knowledge to help those in need. .

For most, the visa problems will be secondary to the loss of an opportunity to share with and in another culture.

THose who were here temporarily will probably just leave with a poorer impression of Thailand than when they arrived: residents will feel that they have been treated unfairly by not being allowed to continue with their projects.

I'm sorry that TV cannot see its way to at least place a reference on the Chiang Mai Forum directing enquirers to the Vusa pages. I'm also sorry that, in their frequent emails about new posts, these issues have not been mentioned, although the subject is now one of the most replied to topics involving Chiang Mai.

[electracm]

Walen here.

I am sad to hear that CMU has treated students this way. It is bad for the whole business. It is a long thread but basically CMU were audited by the Ministry of Education and were found not good enough to provide student visa support so their paperwork is not recognized by the immigration office. Walen was audited about the same time but as things are run strictly according to the exact government guidelines we had no problems at all. Those who have not visited our school in Chiangmai yet and live there please do come to see for yourself. We did not always get a fair coverage on thaivisa.com by some who do not like us so much however we strive to provide the highest quality of service and certainly provide the most reliable ED visa support for our students.

Till date we had no problems at any of of the Walen schools. One reason is that we indeed teach Thai and not just pretend we do but really hope to make money on ED visa support. This is our 10th year of doing business in Thailand and each year we are becoming more and more popular so we must be doing something right.

Walen School - Great method and reliable ED visa support

www.thaiwalen.com

And you are exactly the reason why I moved all the way from Koh Chang to Chiang Mai rather than go to your school in BKK. I went to immigration here, spoke with the head honcho and was informed that IUS absoloutely was found to be in compliance with all rules. (CMU was not audited, bonehead. Get your facts straight.)He told me the only reason my visa could not be processed is because the the University refused to sign the letters.

I think you just lost a huge amount of business for your school. Can you say, "classified job search"?

I don't believe I need to say much more here, your letter is so transparent I can see the logo on the back of my laptop.

Dear Sir, I run a language school for a living for a long time, if there is any foreign expert on ED visas in Thailand it must be certainly me as no other school has as many students as we do. I simply stated facts, I do not write nonsense when disusing or expressing an opinion on a serious matter. If you want you are welcome to talk to our school manager or visit the ministry of education in Chiangmai in person. CMU Thai school is not having the right to sign papers for the immigration as that right has been taken away by the Ministry of Education, you did not want to trust Walen, your business, but please think before you challenge my knowledge of the situation. If you still do not want to study at Walen we do not mind, there are many good schools out there, but what happened is bad for all the schools, bad for our business, I am participating in this forum and hopefully contributing something of value as you do too.

Walen School

www.thaiwalen.com

Whatever Walen School believes or states about what has happened or who is responsible does not affect their programme. I'm sure , in our home countries, we;ve all bought items from companies with whose stance on various matters we might not agree.

I was at Walen yesterday to sign up for a Thai course and found the staff freindly and helpful and the programme rather more suitable than that being taught at CMU. I'd investigaetd the other options, (AUA, Payap, YMCA) , and found they were not for me for various reasons.

We're all free to believe what we like - in business it's the quality of the product which counts, plus the service received by its clients. Seems to me that on both those counts Walen is a better option than the rest.

[CMX]

I think that it should be noted that mods have made positive suggestions, when a few helpful ideas could work somewhat.

If I were to imagine being a mod (in some nightmare), I'd guess that I myself would not be making personal choices about the big issues. Placing matters of such contention and volatility would be dealt with top mods (you know, BKK mods). We here in CM who like to keep things in the community do not, after all, own the company.

Say, who exactly does own the company?

[thaiguy55]

UPDATE:

This morning I got news from someone on the Thai course that immigration had arrested some of the 300 people on the course, I don't know any further details.

This seems very unlikely. Why would Thai Immigration arrest 300 people in the course?

[Mario2008]

1 post deleted as off-topic.

This thread is not about Walen, but about the situation at CMU. Any further off topic comments will be deleted without further notification.

[hagler]

I have it on VERY good authority that the prz of cmu is completely freaked out by the threat of personally being sued! There are many many Thai CMU staff and admin who detest this prz and his position is very tenous - this issue has cause those factions that dislike prz to have some real ammunition and the prz is frightened of any idea of foreigners personally suing him - some students went to the police station and took out a report on the prz (anyone can do this and the police station near zoo) and then went to the prz office and told staff that they had taken given a police report against prz and that they would be personally suing the prz - if enough people do this - i would guarantee you are going to see a reverse on this visa decision that the prz took and you might even see classes reinstated

spare us. Before anyone thinks of following this advice think very carefully through the possible consequences.

someone in an earlier post is getting closer...

the truth is still out there

[Tywais]

I'm sorry that TV cannot see its way to at least place a reference on the Chiang Mai Forum directing enquirers to the Vusa pages.

The duplicate topics created in the CM forum do have links to here.

the subject is now one of the most replied to topics involving Chiang Mai.

That would suggest no one is having problems locating the topic and it moves it out of a local forum to an area that will have more exposure.

Those who wish to subscribe to this topic can do so here > Subscribe

[virtualtraveller]

I'm not involved but I have vested interests in the Thailand's approach to welcoming guests, I find this whole episode disgusting. Perhaps there are several mitigating factors and reasons behind the fallout, part mis-management, part-misunderstanding, part slipping attendance (violating visa rules), who knows but the reaction to all this of the two main parties says alot about Thailand;

1. On the one hand you have Matt Kay, who started this all up and turned it into a successful business that was benefitting lots of people, training them and providing CMU LI with a highly profitable usage of a failing department. He has run around trying to find solutions, and communicated properly with those involved and, crucially, committed to digging into his own pocket to refund and pay for expenses incurred from the sudden termination of the agreement.

2. On the other hand you have the president of CMU abruptly terminating the program, citing an implausible reason, giving unreasonable notice and not co-operating in helping find the students an alternative (which could quite easily be done if he wasn't spiteful), furthermore he has violated several hundred contracts by refusing to refund money to the students despite his university issuing the receipts for the money.

Not difficult to judge who the villian is here. I suggest the students collectively go to a lawyer with a class action lawsuit against CMU for refund and expenses incurred for visa runs and other costs incurred while waiting to resume their studies. They should show up en-masse at his office and demand an explanation. Of course being farang he can get them all 'unguested' from Thailand (to quote his own word), which would conveniently remove them all from the country and he can keep his money (amounting to about 10 million baht) and squash the lawsuit (since it's against a govt institution) and carry on with an empty language institute, as if nothing ever happened.

What's more the manner in which the Immigration department went along with everything then suddenly 'queried' their methods, is suspicious and I don't trust this man's explanations one bit. As a professional at an executive level of a prestigious university you would have expected him to give sufficient notice and have the forethought to realise that sudden termination will leave lots of people suddenly unable to renew visas. CMU are also trying to pass the buck by referring everyone to the administration of the program (Matt Kay et al) when in fact it is not a proper company and the whole program was organised under CMU LI which is a part of the university, so they are obliged to deal with disgruntled students and liable for refunds. It's fairly typical in a country that has such poor sense of accountability for an individual of this seniority in public education to conduct himself like this and get away with. It says a great deal about how this country runs, why it can't even get 3G going, and continually embarrasses itself with dysfunctional politics, law and order and half-baked business deals.

Mai pen rai, there will always be a plane full of gullible flush foreigners touching down at Suvarnabhumi every 5 minutes, waiting to be fleeced by King Power, the Police or whoever, who cares about the reputation of the country.

Edited September 29, 2010 by virtualtraveller

[LivinLOS]

Not the best of situations.

However I can see the "other" side of the story too.

The over-riding concern expressed by the great majority of posters affected is about the loss of their visa. Not about the loss of their course. The loss of their visa.

From the Universities viewpoint that says it all.

Well in a visa section of a forum what do you expect..

Secondly without a visa your breaking the law, liable for deportation and fines.. Without the language course your at a loose end.

[thaiguy55]

I have it on VERY good authority that the prz of cmu is completely freaked out by the threat of personally being sued! There are many many Thai CMU staff and admin who detest this prz and his position is very tenous - this issue has cause those factions that dislike prz to have some real ammunition and the prz is frightened of any idea of foreigners personally suing him - some students went to the police station and took out a report on the prz (anyone can do this and the police station near zoo) and then went to the prz office and told staff that they had taken given a police report against prz and that they would be personally suing the prz - if enough people do this - i would guarantee you are going to see a reverse on this visa decision that the prz took and you might even see classes reinstated

spare us. Before anyone thinks of following this advice think very carefully through the possible consequences.

someone in an earlier post is getting closer...

the truth is still out there

spare us with your 'the truth is still out there posts'

[heybruce]

Not the best of situations.

However I can see the "other" side of the story too.

The over-riding concern expressed by the great majority of posters affected is about the loss of their visa. Not about the loss of their course. The loss of their visa.

From the Universities viewpoint that says it all.

Well Duhhh! If you hear that your classes have been canceled, your money may not be refunded, and you will be in the country illegally starting on Friday, your first priority is to make your status legal, then you worry about the money and the classes.

There are people with a serious problem asking questions and trying to get helpful information on this thread. If you don't have anything pertinent to the situation to post, then don't post.

[anselpixel]

Not the best of situations.

However I can see the "other" side of the story too.

The over-riding concern expressed by the great majority of posters affected is about the loss of their visa. Not about the loss of their course. The loss of their visa.

From the Universities viewpoint that says it all.

Well Duhhh! If you hear that your classes have been canceled, your money may not be refunded, and you will be in the country illegally starting on Friday, your first priority is to make your status legal, then you worry about the money and the classes.

There are people with a serious problem asking questions and trying to get helpful information on this thread. If you don't have anything pertinent to the situation to post, then don't post.

I second that! Hard to believe this kind of stuff is still showing up in the thread. People who have no idea what's going on could at least read the thread before jumping in.

[happyrobert]

Not the best of situations.

However I can see the "other" side of the story too.

The over-riding concern expressed by the great majority of posters affected is about the loss of their visa. Not about the loss of their course. The loss of their visa.

From the Universities viewpoint that says it all.

Well in a visa section of a forum what do you expect..

Secondly without a visa your breaking the law, liable for deportation and fines.. Without the language course your at a loose end.

Hey, many of us are very serious about learning Thai. Do you lock up all the citizens and punish them because a few break the law? Of course not. Only two of the students in my class did not come every class, the rest of us did.

I want to learn Thai because it is a sign of respect if I am going to live in their country. I also want to learn for personal enjoyment of my life here. I did not go with a private school as I was concerned about the possibility of their going out of business. So I chose - ha, ha, a respected, long-established, venerable institution and I spent considerable money moving here, setting up house, signing leases, etc, to attend CMU. Y

Your'e d**n right I'm concerned with my visa - I want to be here legally. I am invested here. I want to go to school. What do you do with your time, Bud?

Edited September 29, 2010 by happyrobert

[LivinLOS]

Not the best of situations.

However I can see the "other" side of the story too.

The over-riding concern expressed by the great majority of posters affected is about the loss of their visa. Not about the loss of their course. The loss of their visa.

From the Universities viewpoint that says it all.

Well in a visa section of a forum what do you expect..

Secondly without a visa your breaking the law, liable for deportation and fines.. Without the language course your at a loose end.

Hey, many of us are very serious about learning Thai. Do you lock up all the citizens and punish them because a few break the law? Of course not. Only two of the students in my class did not come every class, the rest of us did.

I want to learn Thai because it is a sign of respect if I am going to live in their country. I also want to learn for personal enjoyment of my life here. I did not go with a private school as I was concerned about the possibility of their going out of business. So I chose - ha, ha, a respected, long-established, venerable institution and I spent considerable money moving here, setting up house, signing leases, etc, to attend CMU. Y

Your'e d**n right I'm concerned with my visa - I want to be here legally. I am invested here. I want to go to school. What do you do with your time, Bud?

I think you have me confused.. I am certainly in support of the students who have lost out. I was merely pointing out why the visa question is highest in peoples minds, because without a visa your in legal problems, which Thailand rarely has much sense of humor about, and without a language course you basically have some spare time.. Annoying but not the same level of punishment.

I also wonder why no ones started legal action ?? If you have receipts from CMU for payment to CMU and CMU were doing the visas.. Then start legal action for a refund.

I have it on good authority (by someone whose done it a couple of times) that small claims court is actually quiet efficient here, not hard to access, and not expensive to do.. Even if you dont get the refund it will put the fear into CMU if they are slapped with 10 or 20 court cases, if they dont turn up you win by default so they have to fight each and every one of them.

[hookemlaw]

If you are on an extension of stay and don't leave the country on the 30th, you are on overstay and will be fined 500 baht a day with a maximum of 20,000 baht.

As has been suggested, getting a double entry tourist visa in Vientiane will give you time to sort things out. Immigration can only give you a 7 day extension of stay.

Do you have a source for this?

I read all of this thread (before your post) and didn't really trust the sub 20 post count people to be reliable visa information, but your post concerns me.

FWIW, my 90 day check-in was today. I went to do the check-in first, and then inquired with the guy who works the queue-dispenser about the CMU situation. He said that they were aware of the class cancellations, and there would be no renewals/extensions granted. But that if you had a persmission to stay date the only way it would be cancelled is in person with a) letter from CMU and b.) your passport. To be as sure as possible, I told him that classes were over tomorrow, and I wanted to know whether I should leave the country. He said he could take my passport and check to be sure. He came back five minutes later and said I was fine until my visa expiration (< 90 days).

I asked about the future ED visas, and he said that if you wanted to go to a different school you should bring your CMU cancellation letter and documentation from new school at same time, or else you'd need to leave and come back on a different visa and apply for a ED from another institution.

I have a hard time seeing any sinister motives from Immigration, and also with the number of people affected I have a hard time thinking they don't have an official position.

Your post makes me worry though, so if you have any more detailed information I'd like to know so I can get out if I need to.

Edit: he said to tell 'my friends' because many students from CMU coming to ask same question at immigration. However, I obviously wouldn't trust my anonymous info for your own case. I'm just slightly paranoid about immigration status.

Edited September 29, 2010 by hookemlaw

[happyrobert]

Not the best of situations.

However I can see the "other" side of the story too.

The over-riding concern expressed by the great majority of posters affected is about the loss of their visa. Not about the loss of their course. The loss of their visa.

From the Universities viewpoint that says it all.

Well in a visa section of a forum what do you expect..

Secondly without a visa your breaking the law, liable for deportation and fines.. Without the language course your at a loose end.

Hey, many of us are very serious about learning Thai. Do you lock up all the citizens and punish them because a few break the law? Of course not. Only two of the students in my class did not come every class, the rest of us did.

I want to learn Thai because it is a sign of respect if I am going to live in their country. I also want to learn for personal enjoyment of my life here. I did not go with a private school as I was concerned about the possibility of their going out of business. So I chose - ha, ha, a respected, long-established, venerable institution and I spent considerable money moving here, setting up house, signing leases, etc, to attend CMU. Y

Your'e d**n right I'm concerned with my visa - I want to be here legally. I am invested here. I want to go to school. What do you do with your time, Bud?

I think you have me confused.. I am certainly in support of the students who have lost out. I was merely pointing out why the visa question is highest in peoples minds, because without a visa your in legal problems, which Thailand rarely has much sense of humor about, and without a language course you basically have some spare time.. Annoying but not the same level of punishment.

I also wonder why no ones started legal action ?? If you have receipts from CMU for payment to CMU and CMU were doing the visas.. Then start legal action for a refund.

I have it on good authority (by someone whose done it a couple of times) that small claims court is actually quiet efficient here, not hard to access, and not expensive to do.. Even if you dont get the refund it will put the fear into CMU if they are slapped with 10 or 20 court cases, if they dont turn up you win by default so they have to fight each and every one of them.

Sorry, LivinLOS, I was responding to Hagler. But, now that you mention it, lawsuit. Hmmmm, I was, as a police officer, in firefights. In one case I had my service sidearm (choosing my words carefully here) with 18 rounds against five guys with a virtual personal armory, on a country road in the middle of the night. I thought it best to allow them to foolishly exhaust their "supply" before I popped my head up and ....... Two of them did not go home again, the others went to prison and I'm here 20 years later writing this.

Moral of the story: Keep your head down and let the big guns act like Rambo for a while. They will, they always do. When they run out, then there can be lawsuits. I truly believe that if students now go to the police or lawyers that all hel_l is going to break loose in their lives because of face saving.

I'm just a guy in someone else's country. A lawsuit against a major government institution of higher learning would open me up to all kinds of problems. No complaints to the police, no lawyers. I'll spend the money - again - leave the country, eat some sushi in Tokyo and start again with a good ED visa from a reputable learning institution. Sadly, where I can afford to do this, many at the school can not.

[Austeyr]

Matt's story: Classes stopped because of racism on the part of the LICMU director and the CMU President.

Rien's story: Classes stopped because of the program could not pass an audit by Immigration.

I think Rien's story makes a little more sense, based on the facts I have at the moment. I will call Immigration to see what they say. The number of actual facts that I have in this case are very low. All I have are emails and statements from two sides of the conflict. I haven't seen any supporting documents from either side, such as bank statements, meeting minutes, or audit results. I doubt that I will. I notice that nobody has produced them on this forum either. This should probably be a police matter. I've met with Matt once. I'll give him credit for communicating with us better than Rien. However, I don't have any reason to believe many details from his side of the story. It seems like a lot of people on this forum seem to think that Matt is a champion of the students, while Rien is an evil autocrat. At this point, I think that they are both to blame. Don't believe everything you hear from either side. If you are a student, I would not take sides with either Matt or Rien. Just save your own a**, communicate with other students, your embassy, and anyone else, and keep searching for the truth.

Its already been mentioned that Immigration stated that there were no problems with any of the documentation handed in and they had no issues with granting visa's. If this were the case why did the director still shut down all the programs even though many students didnt require visa assistance and Dr Kay was happy to pay for the Thai teachers and room space for a year as so LI would not have to suffer from any costs and students could finish the courses they had started. Also it was the president who refused to sign the 9 month study extensions, it had nothing to do with immigration at all.

[rob101]

If someone offers to refund monies for something that they are not responsible for they are either one of 2 things...

a fool

hiding something

the truth is still out there.

Dr Kay is doing his best to try and fix the problem. He is not trying to hide anything. Threats from Rien of, how did he put it, "unguesting" him from Thailand when he has a Wife and kids really doesn't leave a foreigner here with much recourse. And Walen, using this thread to promote your own language school is disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Before 'Dr' Matt came to the LOS he was a bit-part actor in Australian soap operas. Google as the truth is out there.

Coming to Thailand 'Matt' became 'Dr Matt'. However:

***Here’s an earlier version of what you posted that was reported to the public for years. Due to heavy advertising, including on Ajarn, this is more than common knowledge:

Who are the CMU team? /

TEFL Certificate Course Chiang Mai University – About Us

Dr. Matthew John Kay (Matt)

International Programs Director

Nationality: Australian

Education: BA (Hons) Philosophy, Ph.D, University of Queensland, Australia.

Brief Bio:

TEFL Certificate Program Director Dr. Matthew John Kay has been teaching academic English and thesis writing at the Language Institute since 2004. A special instructor in philosophy, he also lectures in European philosophy for the Department of Sociology’s Ph.D program in sustainable development.***

Then...

***Below is the response I received from a reference librarian at the University of Queensland:

From: [email protected]

Subject: Library Question – Answer [Question #4001340]

Hello T

Thank you for contacting Ask a Librarian.

I could not find a dissertation for Matthew John Kay but there is one for a Matthew Howell Kay in 2001.

Author Kay, Matthew Howell.

Title Geostatistical integration of conventional and downhole geophysical data in the metalliferous mine environment / by Matthew Howell Kay.

If you need further information you can contact the UQ Graduate School http://www.uq.edu.au/grad-school/

Kind regards

Liz Reaves***

Google as the truth is out there.

CMU LI has claimed in their public notice that there is a police investigation into "a number of business practice activities which have occurred with International University Services...". CMU LI also advises people affected by this to contact their embassy or consulate.

From post 150 posted yesterday on this thread:

***Unfortunately, it looks like at least a few people were caught in the most recent shuffles and paid for classes within the past two weeks. They have not even been given 1 class! The Phuping Police station, just outside the main entrance of the University on Huay Kaew Rd., is taking reports. Please take the time to bring any paperwork that you have and make a report against whoever you paid, or think you paid. The officer in charge of this case is: Chalearmwut Sangriruang. If at all possible, please also bring a translator, or call the tourist police to send one for you.***

No opinions from me just the results of some Googling to give a little perspective.

My God, Loaded - you are bringing up some rumours that were started by years ago by another TEFL provided - yes, I know that Matt graduated from the National Institute of Dramatic Art (NIDA) in Sydney in the early 80s and worked mainly as a theatre actor for about 10 years after that - he then started his undergrad at Southern Cross University at 33 - transferred to the University of Queesnsland to do his honor's year and his Ph.D which he finished in 2003 - how do I know all this - I have a good friend who knew him very well at SCU AND I actually sat in on one of his philosophy lectures at CMU (he seems to know a hel_l-of-a-lot about philosophy for a bit-part TV actor!!) and the Thai professor who was there mentioned a number of times that he and Matt had read papers at a university conference in Australia AND that one of this Thai prof's friends - an Aussie - was on Matt's disertation committee!!!!!!!! You really don't like Matt do you? In the interests of transparency would you like to let this forum know exactly what your beef with him is?!!! And, anyway &lt;deleted&gt; has it got to do with this topic - you muppet!

[Mario2008]

If you are on an extension of stay and don't leave the country on the 30th, you are on overstay and will be fined 500 baht a day with a maximum of 20,000 baht.

As has been suggested, getting a double entry tourist visa in Vientiane will give you time to sort things out. Immigration can only give you a 7 day extension of stay.

Do you have a source for this?

Attention

If the alien granting extension of stay permit in The Kingdom for the reason of working at a business company/organization etc., resigns from such company / organization, his/her stay permit will be immediately terminated. As a consequence, The stay permit of his/her dependents will be terminated as well. Work Permit and Stay Permit must be revoked by competent officials.

http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php

This goes also for people on an extension of stay based on marriage, or in your case study.

[thaiguy55]

Mario,

Where does it say it applies for student visas too? Hookemlaw reported that Thai Immigration in Chiang Mai said he was ok for 3 months.

[lopburi3]

It applies for any extension of stay and recently applicants have been provided a document to sign when obtaining such that the extension ends when the reason for that extension ends.

In many cases there is no active hunting down of those in violation, just no continuation, but technically all who stay beyond that time are overstay.

[happyrobert]

And here's a point that I don't believe that anyone has even alluded to, let alone expressed:

LICMU director and CMU president waited until the end of the month to make this announcement. As of last week they led us to believe all was well. Show up to class last night and...boom.

They could very well have given everyone 30 days notice to the end of classes so that we all had time to arrange our affairs. But no doubt they are well aware of the excessive upcharge for booking international flights the day before departure as opposed to a week or more, and all the other difficulties this would cause in our lives.

In some cases, flights require more booking time than "next day". The first flight on my airline that I can take back to the States to my destination consulate is Tuesday and the fare is in excess of $3500.

The appropriate thing to have done would have been to man up, have an open meeting announcing the end of classes in 30 or 60 days, and handed out forms to request a refund.

Nope, let's run and hide, kep all the money, point fingers and issue an anonymous letter giving 48 hours to get out of the country.

Circumstantial evidence, yes. But very strong circumstantial evidence of intent to do maximum harm. And criminal convictions have been handed down on lesser circumstantial evidence.

Looking forward to seing where this goes.

Thank goodness for public phones and computers!

[thaiguy55]

One of my friends just got back from chiang mai immigration and reported the same thing as hookemlaw. He question the immigration officer a couple of times to make sure his visa is good until the expiry date (march), and the immigration officer said the only way the visa would become invalid is if he (my friend) brought in his passport with a letter from cmu stating to void the visa.