My Work Permit Is From Phuket.

[jayrockwell]

Dear All,

Is a Work Permit valid nationally or only locally?

I work computers in Phuket, my boss wants me to work at one of our customers offices in Bangkok for a week or so, checking and setting up the PC's/networks he's just sold them.

My employer is in Phuket, the work is invoiced from Phuket. Is that ok?

I don't mean, can I get away with it, I mean is it 100% ok.

Thanks

James

[Indo-Siam]

JR _

You are fine - don't worry.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

www.indo-siam.com

[Zendesigner]

hi Jay,

How is the work situation in Phuket for IT personnel ? I've been looking in the eastern seaboard and BKK for a while now but nothing materializes ?

I'm a network consultant / ######

any pointers ??

bart

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Dear All,

Is a Work Permit valid nationally or only locally?

I work computers in Phuket, my boss wants me to work at one of our customers offices in Bangkok for a week or so, checking and setting up the PC's/networks he's just sold them.

My employer is in Phuket, the work is invoiced from Phuket. Is that ok?

I don't mean, can I get away with it, I mean is it 100% ok.

Thanks

James

It is national and as you are working for the same firm, you are 100 % safe. Not a worry in the world. .

[Never Never land]

i am not sure ask the IM people you are never safe from them,, never ever in never never land.....

[Sunbelt Asia]

"I mean is it 100% ok."

No it is not ok. I know someone who had a work permit for Bangkok. Immigration visited their office in Phuket. He was told he needed a work permit for Phuket and would need to be arrested for violation of working without a work permit. Even though he had one for Bangkok, it was meaningless.

[Indo-Siam]

Back to the original post.

If a work permit holder has a job working for a company that provides on-site support to clients throughout Thailand, and his approved job is "customer field support technician", and he then travels to client sites for a few days at a time, and performs his normal work away from home office, he is OK.

If a work permit holder has a defined job with one employer in one city, and then goes to another city, stays there long-term, and performs work unrelated to his first job or employer, then yes, he can get in trouble.

Now, let's look at Jame's post. Which category is he likely to be in?

With use of just a hint of common sense, then I think is is pretty safe to say that James is 100% OK.

James - if your job, per work permit, is front doorguard for a building in Phuket, then you cannot go install computers for weeks at a time in Bangkok and be 100% safe.

So - what is your job description?

Steve

Indo-Siam

[opalhort]

"I mean is it 100% ok."

No it is not ok. I know someone who had a work permit for Bangkok. Immigration visited their office in Phuket. He was told he needed a work permit for Phuket and would need to be arrested for violation of working without a work permit. Even though he had one for Bangkok, it was meaningless.

Sunbelt,

I think you are correct in the case you mention. working in a branch office of your company even within the same city is against the WP rules if the branch is not listed in the WP book.

But in the case of Jayrockwell he is being sent on assignemt to a customer of his company. It could be that part of his job description in the WP should state 'sending out on assignments for installation work etc.'

opalhort

[alanw]

I'm aware of a farang working (with work permit) for an international consulting company based in BKK. His company gained a contract do some work for the local office of a multinational.

One of the Thais in the local branch of the client company was pissed off about the work being performed (not pissed off at the consultant), and discovered that he could report the farang for working in a location other than that stated on the work permit. He did so in attempt to stop the work and the changes it would generate in the client company.

Both the farang consultant and his employer were subsequently fined. I don't know how much the fines were.

They then asked if it was possible to have an official endorsement to cover 'floating' work places in addition to recording the company office. The answer was a very clear no.

This was about 2 years ago. Suggest you get some up to date information from a professional source.

Regards

[opalhort]

sounds like the TPI saga to me!?

if there is no accuser then there will be no problem doing the job for a couple of days.

opalhort

[george]

A work permit is *only* valid for the address stated in the blue work permit booklet. Period.

[Sunbelt Asia]

The fine in this case that I know of, was a whopping 50,000 Baht! It was a branch office of the corporate office in BKk that the foreigner had a work permit for.

George, Been trying to reach you. Can you e-mail me please. Thanks.

[CMexpat]

George is correct. In your work permit there is a "job discription" and a "location" where this work is performed. This is not necessarily the address in the work pemit on the first page. For example you can live in Phuket and perform a job in Bangkok. This work in bangkok is then the "location".

I have witnessed foreigners being picked up (on a tip-off) because they were working on a different location only for a few days.

So, no not 100% not even 1%.

[Indo-Siam]

I dunno - I read the alarmist postings on the last page of this thread, and I simply feel that my intelligence and common sense are being frontally assaulted.

Using reductio ad absurdum, any farang business manager who believes half these posts would:

1. Fear going to be an exhibitor at a Thai tradeshow

2. Fear going to inspect and sign a contract for a new, larger office space

3. Fear going to make a sales call on a client or visit a vendor

4. Fear being a speaker at a conference.

I really laugh every time I see someone on this board talk about how some poor farang got "busted on a tip-off to the police". I truly believe most people posting these sorts of comments have no clue how the Thai police work. There are about 80 different kinds of police in just Bangkok. They all have incredibly narrow jurisdictional power. Try getting a tourist policeman, or a Bangkok traffic cop, or a customs inspector, or an Immigration officer at Suan Phlu, or a desk sergeant at Lumpini Police station to exhibit even a flicker iof interest in a work permit complaint:

"Sawasdee Khrap - I'm Joe Blow,and I'd like to make a complaint. I know that Mr. Steve Sykes of the Indo-Siam Group - who has a Class B visa and a work permit, and whose office is on Soi Asoke - is presently at a client factory in Samutprakan, doing a research interview for a US client - and his work permit doesn't say anything about him being allowed to work in Samutprakan, and I want you to go arrest him."

They will <deleted> laugh in your face - if they even finish listening to you. In a dozen visits to Labor Ministry and two of the nine municipal labor offices, I've never seen a Labor Department policeman - if they have such a creature (I assume they do) - and I seriously doubt they would care either.

Gents - in my mind, several sponsor-level people on this thread are literally insulting Thai officialdom by implying that they are brainless idiots with no common sense and an aggressive desire to go find picayune fault with rightfully-employed foreigners going about their business in Thailand. I have never seen even a hint of such heavy-handedness.

How recent is my info - well, last week, I and my staff took a visiting Japanese researcher around to - Thai Police Headuqrters (ECID Division), Thai Customs Headquarters, The Central Intellectual Property and International Trade Court, Thailand's Supreme Court, both the Municipal Criminal and Civil Courts, the Thai Food and Drug Adminsitration, the Thai Arbitration Court, the Department oif Commerce, and a few other places I can't even recall.

I know what it is like to press formal criminal (assault) charges - at Lumpini Police Station. On a Saturday afternoon. Dressed in a coat and tie. With my two-page typed complaint translated into Thai. It took me <deleted> HOURS to get the entire staff of that station to do anything. Only after about an hour of trying to get me to forget about it - and realizing slowly that I was there to stay - did they finally start the process that later lead to them arresting my assailant - who then did her level best to get me screwed - I was then living in Thailand on a Class O - based here by my USA employer, but without a work permit. They had no concern whatever with this. They were not Labor Bureaucrats or Immigration Bureaucrats - they were criminal police - and Thai Police do not give a ###### about things outside their narrow jurisdictions.

I am experienced and quite good at working my way through Thai government bureaucracies - and I will tell you that I would be hard pressed to even figure out how to attempt to "finger" some employed farang with a work permit working outside his office - this is simply such a non-offense that it would take a temendous stroke of luck to get any reaction whatsoever.

Then - if you do get a Thai policeman to do something in regards to a "shades of gray" offense, Thai Policeare not trigger-happy cowboys who immediately arrest wrongdoers. In probbaly 80% of such situations, they will simply warn you that you are doing something wrong, and adviise you to not do it again. Oh- and maybe extract a 500 baht "advisory fee" or "user fee" for their trouble.

As long as you are operating in general compliance with the main rules, and operating in an unremarkable and polite manner, you run virtually no risk of running afoul of the Thai system.

So - I openly confront several of you by saying that I think you are GROSSLY misrepresenting daily life in Thailand. By doing so, you insult Thailand, you insult the people who frequent this board, and you literally ruin the reputation of this forum.

Incredible nonsense on this board from people who should know better.

Steve

Indo-Siam

[CMexpat]

Indo-Siam,

"inredible nonsense", well, sorry for just stating my experience.

Your four examples are a joke, of course they do not require changes in your WP. As for the rest, yes I did see people being arrested for working in a nearby province where they were setting up a new factory. Not a disaster, just a lot of hassle and expensive, you may take the risk, I won't.

Cheers.

[CMexpat]

Just for simplicity.

Question: My work permit is from Phuket, can I work in Bangkok?

Answer: Only if your WP specifically mentions "location of Work": Bangkok (and Phuket).

[Indo-Siam]

CMex -

OK - I will go ahead and start drilling-down, because I simply don't believe anything significant happened as you described. I mean - for crying out loud - there are hundreds of farangs working on the Thai subway system, and the New Bangkok International Airport - are you going to insult my intelligence by telling me that their work permits read "working under ground below nummerous address locations in Bangkok" or "working in the rice fields south of Bangna-trad highway"? Come on - be real.

So - EXACTLY What happened? "People being arrested" How many people? What nationalities (maybe illegal burmese laborers?)? How many police officers - how many sets of handcuffs? How many vehicles to haul the prisoners away? What factory (and I've visited maybe 80 so far in Thailand)? What date?

Are you personally familiar with each arrested individual's immigration status, work permit status,and the charge he was arrested for? Did the arrested individuals spend any nights in jail? Were they given bail? What was the outcome of their court case? Get me individual names, and I will get you the court records - if their are any.

That's the "drill down" at about 20% of the way to bottom. Your turn. Put up or shut up.

Jay Rockwell - you have nothing to worry about. Get on with your work - stay out of trouble. If you listen to some of the crackpots on this board, you might as well go break into Bangkwang prison yourself, and pick out a comfy spot.

Indo-Siam

[CMexpat]

First off all, I am not on this forum to go into long discussions especially if people are trying to drill me down. I have better things to do.

Secondly, I am not in a position to reveal too many details about things that have happend without proir approval of the people involved, we are on the web remember. Face to face this would be different, I hope that you appreciate this.

No it did not involve Burmese but "westerners". In my humble opinion the location of work normally states a city or sometimes even a province. This would mean that when using your subway example, those working there are safe. Real??

Sorry no handcuffs, no force and yes I am personally familiar with some of those arrested. At the time, that is the time that they were arrested, I was playing golf with their CEO, he was not impressed.

Work permit status of those involved: The problem was that the WP holders had under their location of work a certain city in a certain province. This particular company was building a new factory at a site outside of the city-province that was stated in their WP. The old factory was closed upon completion off the new factory. Obviously there was a period when WP holders were "working" at both locations before their working location in their WP's was changed. This means that they were working outside of their allowed location. Distance between the two factories was about 50 km, but in a different province.

No, no days in jail, just a lot of hassle and fines, sorry, do not remember how much.

Cheers.

[Indo-Siam]

Given the situation you describe, I sincerely doubt that work permit violation fines were responsible for any significant portion of the total costs of relocating a factory.

As a matter of fact, I have never heard of a work permit violation fine, other than in relation to failure to turn in a work permit booklet when a job ends.

Meaning - I have never heard of a work permit fine being levied against an employee during the middle of a work permit authorization period, for doing an unathorized type of work -at any location - for the same employer he is allowed to work for. That does not mean that this has never happened - but - again - I know a bit about how Thai government agencies operate here - and they simply do not have time to bother with ridiculous trivia like that.

But - in the interests of greater knowledge, I will be happy to find out what the Thai statistics are for work permit holders being punished for doing their job for their authorized employer, but at a temporary location other than the duty location printed in their blue booklet.

By the way - here is a temporary link to Form 11 - the "temporary urgent work permit" form that was mentioned in another thread:

Form 11

Image loads slow, and doesn't print out exactly correctly - maybe I can clean it up later.

The rules:

1. 15 day max period

2. Not allowed to receive any non-routine payment for such work.

3. Can be processed at any Labor Depratment Office, within one hour.

4. No government fee (my firm will charge 1,000 baht to run these through the system)

5. Can be obtained with any entry permit - including 30 day entry on arrival.

I'd say this is a total waste of time - and the fact that their is no fee means this is not a profit center - which means Thai officials could care less.

But - if chronic worriers want to sleep peacefully - here is your method - and I'll be happy to collect 1,000 baht per head to give you peace of mind. And - whatever my personal thoughts - if you purchase this "insurance", my team will do its utmost to provide great service.

Steve

Indo-Siam

ww.thaistartup.com

[george]

Related work permit topic:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4074

[Sunbelt Asia]

Steve,

Call me and I'll be glad to give you the number of the guy in Phuket who had the problem. He sure didn't think it was a laughing matter, he said he shit all over himself on the thought of being deported. Again he had a work permit but it was for the wrong city!

[Indo-Siam]

Greg -

Immigration Police don't have jurisdiction over work permit violations - or particularly care about same - as long as the person's immigration status is OK (I.e., he had a valid entry permit for working).

You are telling us that the guy had to go to Immigration to pay a 50,000 fine for a work permit violation? I doubt it. The Labor Ministry might be able to impose a fine for a work permit violation - but not Immigration. Immigration collects fines for Immigation violations - not Labor violations.

And guys - if any of you think that police from competing ministries help each other out - I have news for you. They generally view one annother as bitter rivals - AND THEY DO NOT HELP OTHER MINISTRIES ENFORCE THEIR RULES. I simply do not believe that an Immigration inspector would EVER bother to randomly ask to see a farang's work permit - THIS JUST DOES NOT HAPPEN. Passport - yes. Work permit - extraordinarily rare.

Now - the fact that Immigration Inspectors even showed up AT ALL in a business office, and started asking random farangs to lay out their papers - this in itself suggests to me that the company was doing something else very fishy.

Are you sure that the problem wasn't a whole lot more involved - like maybe involving other legal problems (with a work permit violation being just icing on the cake)?

Even asssuming that the "inspection" you describe played out as reported, and the guy said - "Oh, I moved down here three weeks ago" - Immigration inspectors arriving on a random office check would tell the guy to go get his work permit adjusted, and "not let us catch you again with outdated papers" - not immediately land on the guy with a 50,000 baht fine.

In Thailand, a 50,000 baht fine is reserved for things like homicide - not first-time adminsitrative violations. First time admin violations carry penalties like 2,000 baht - not first time 50,000 baht violations for individuals.

I have personally been shaken down at United Center on Silom by a nasty little Immigration officer - he was doing the field inspection in support of my application for an entended entry permit. He made me muster my employees, went all through my 150 page passport, went through our tax records, went through our company registration records - but even he didn't bother physically asking to see the blue work permit booklet. All he really wanted was a bribe to go away - and to approve my extended entry permit. My Office Manager finally asked me to go get a cup of coffee, and when I came back, the guy was gone (along with 1,500 baht). He evidently came through the serviced office complex every once in a while "introducing himself" to new tenants. And this was a nasty little guy - but he wasn't particularly motivated to cause me trouble - he just needed to make his revenue mark for that month.

Now - if I would have been stupid enough to challenge his authority - or not play out his little charade - I suppose he could have caused me some serious damage. But this would be for defying a police officer's instructions - not for some non-Immigration related administrative violation.

Bottom line: You are talking about a VERY, VERY unusual and rare instance - you are not representing business as usual. I will bet that almost every day at least 10 farang businessmen with work permits from elsewhere in Thailand fly into Phuket to transact business - for a few hours, or a few days, or even a few weeks - and they happily go about their business unmolested. Every single day. That is business as usual in Thailand.

I posted the Form 11 up above - that is the temporary work location form from Labor Department. There is no government fee associated with this form. That means that every time they process one of these, it is fruitless labor - a total loss, with no profit generation. In Thailand, what that means is - they DO NOT CARE if you submit one of these - or - THEY WOULD ACTUALLY PREFER THAT YOU NOT GENERATE POINTLESS WORK FOR THEM. The day they institute a 1000 baht government fee for processing this form - making this a profit center - that is the day they will start enforcing this program.

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Sunbelt Asia]

What’s the odds of being caught? I agree not likely. But for this guy, it did happen. If it happen to him, it can happen to anyone.

The question was " is it 100% legal to work in another city if your work permit says another location" The answer is simply.... no.

Call me, I'll give you the number, he'll be happy to tell you about his experience.

Greg

[raro]

I think we have to distinguish two things:

1) going by the books

2) Thai reality

For 1) yes, you are already illegal if you participate in a meeting outside your office

For 2) who cares???

But: There is a German company in Map Ta Put with a long standing tradition of not providing any WPs (with one exception out of some five or six foreigners). There was so far no problem for the company and they are in business more than ten years. A couple of months ago the company has been busted by the immigration (or labour department?). Most foreigners managed to escape when the police entered the compound, but one German (shareholder of the company!) has been arrested and deported. Not sure about his fate, I heard rumours that he is back to Thailand now.

There's a lot of speculation who tipped off the immigration, fact is that the Thai MD has excellent connections within the Rayong authorities. Fact is also that this MD was in permanent clinch with the German owner (not the guy who has been deported).

Comes down to the same conclusion: As long as you do not step on somebody's toes, nothing much will happen. If you do AND you do it with the wrong one, you face trouble.

Cheers

raro

[jayrockwell]

That will be yes then, or maybe a no, or maybe just stay in bed.

You are both right, this being Thailand I always like to go with 'better safe than sorry' first, coupled with reality/common sense. Anyway, thanks to you all for taking the time to answer my question properly, just got back, did the work already, I'm still a free man (at the moment), what are the chances of a retrospective tip-off!

Thanks

J

[alanw]

The post I added earlier was not a dream and was not 'incredible nonsense'.

It happened, and nobody can guarantee it won't happen again - just when you least expect it.

Alanw

[thomasjojo]

I work computers in Phuket, my boss wants me to work at one of our customers offices in Bangkok for a week or so, checking and setting up the PC's/networks he's just sold them.

need more people? need me, in BKK?

[jayrockwell]

need more people?  need me, in BKK?

Can't really justify another work permit. Even if we could then we'd need to pay you 30,000+ a month (or you'd need to pay tax like you were earning 30,000 a month). Thai people are readily available to do the work at 8-12,000 a month.

So let's say you are really really good at what you do and we can justify paying you 15,000, you'd need to pay tax of 3000+ a month and visa / work permit fees.

Leaving you approx 10,000 a month for everything (300 baht a day), how does that sound?

If you were working in Europe you could probably get 2000 Euros a month.

J