Corporal Punishment In Thai Schools

[strawberry]

Hi All,

this afternoon my 8 yo daughter comes home from school with an ugly bruise on her stomach. How says I, teacher done that she says. Why ? because I'm slow and can't learn. I want to go and ring the teacher bitches neck.

I ask if the other kids get this treatment and she says no, how come I ask and she tells me the other kids do better than her.

I believe that teachers who use corporal punishment are bad teachers and ought to find another line of work.

My wifes attitude is that the teacher is only trying to help her learn and its my daughters fault if the teacher is loosing her cool and nothing I say can change her mind on that. It happens all over Thailand she tells me.

The bruise is caused by her being pinched by the teacher.

I'm usually in bed asleep by this time but I'm pretty upset and I'm not sure how to handle this particularly as my Thai is atrociuos and my wife won't be a part of it.

Been thinking and I remember reading a report done in Australia and also the USA

how children of parents who speak different languages tend to be backward in school but pick up later on and in fact end up doing better than kids with only one language in the family.

My daughter is the only kid around here who is in this situation.

Does anyone know of this problem and does anyone know where I can get information to present to the school in the hope that I won't find it necessary to do damage to the teacher.

I've heard the stories over the years about Thai teachers and their seeming need to use corporal punishment and I've also been able to observe them fairly close up and quite frankly I reacon they are way above themselves.

I watch the kids in my family over the past 12 years and when they start school they seem to be fairly intellegent little kids but that changes over the next 11 or 12 years and it seems that they get some of there spirit broken.

I usually keep this to myself but since I'm in the mood for it, I don't think Thai's are born stupid they get made that way by their education system. One of my things as a father is to try and make sure that my daughters will is not broken by the education system here.

Regards Joe

[meom]

I would have a talk with the teacher if I were you, if not with your wife then with somebody else who can translate b.itch, kick your ass next time etc..

Besides that who pinches a child in the stomach? Strange place if you ask me.

I thought ears were more popular in class to be pulled.

[Nam Kao]

Joe, your kid is lucky, my kids get the stick, but they dont act up anymore at home either.

regards

nam

[uncle paul]

My wife was the school secretary at a top international school in bkk.

she says take her to the doctor and get it noted and then visit the principal with the evidence .

if you get no joy from the principal you have to go to the state govenors office(and threaten to do so). but you have to do immediately do not wait.

she also says you should put your wife firmly in her place and make her do something about it.

if you want high level civil servants advice ( and i mean very high level)with this situation send me a pm and we will put you in contact: only thai spoken though.

Edited July 15, 2005 by uncle paul

[COBBER]

Joe, a very good friend of mine has been a school principal here for many years and he tells me that corporal punishment is definately illegal , although it is still used by many thai teachers.

Personally if a teacher did this to my child i would feel like taking them out the back of the school and beating the living <deleted> out of them.

This is a very difficult situation , if you confront the teacher directly there could be repercussions and it may be worse for the student. A softer approach may work better. A method the thais use is to mention to a third party that you are not happy about what is going on knowing that this will get back to the teacher so that they get the message without losing face.

Perhaps it could be a better option to look for another school.

[jackr]

Joe, your kid is lucky, my kids get the stick,  but they dont act up anymore at home either.

regards

nam

I agree with strictness and discipline in schools, but teachers pinching and smacking kids is abhorrent. Teaching by fear can't be right??

To the op

Take her out of the Thai education system and give her a better chance of learning how to think

Best of luck.

[Nam Kao]

Joe, whatever you do - dont make her lose face, she could have relatives

with bats, guns, knives etc.

Have your wife handle it, falangs can only lose in a situation like this

good luck

nam

[Dakhar]

It has been well documented that children being raised in an bi-lingual home often times have language delay. Ofcourse language delay can cause learning delay, but if you child is 8 years old, I would guess that phase is over by now.

To say children that grow up in bi-lingual homes eventually end up even more intelegent than other children, I would think is some what misleading. They do eventually catch up to their peers, but they do not have some type of inate genious abilities within them. But at the very least, the are bi-lingual.

[uncle paul]

Joe, whatever you do - dont make her lose face, she could have relatives

with bats, guns, knives etc. 

Have your wife handle it, falangs can only lose in a situation like this

good luck

nam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what a load of rubbish.

if you have the right contacts or know how to go about things in the right way you will have no problems. the main problem in thailand is that far too many farang mix with low life and therfore have little idea of how to go about things.

someone is attacking a child and this should be dealt with and you have been told how to do it.

the fact that this person may lose face is not something you should be concerned with.

tum dee di dee tum chua di chua

[Nam Kao]

Uncle, Joe is deep upcountry, not far from me. Much different thinking than BKK

or pattaya.

regards

nam

[tso310]

Hi All,

this afternoon my 8 yo daughter comes home from school with an ugly bruise on her stomach. How says I, teacher done that she says. Why ? because I'm slow and can't learn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not suprised you are angry. Make sure your response is calm and measured. Don't become the architypal crazy farang shouting and waving your arms in the air, its just what this teacher probably expects. Does this teacher have an attitude problem regarding farangs marrying Thais.

[Tarragona]

I'm not completely against corporal punishment for extreme disciplinary cases but it is utterly abhorrent as an approach to dealing with learning difficulties.

Bilingualism does not cause learning difficulties (Dakhar has pointed out possible problems with language delay but I'm guessing Thai is the dominant language anyway?) but this is a myth that persists.

The studies you refer to may be those mentioned here:

"Old, poorly designed studies done primarily in the United States claimed to show that bilinguals had lower intelligence than monolinguals. Newer research has revealed several flaws in the studies. The most obvious flaw is that the bilingual children were recent immigrants, with poorer knowledge of English and more stressful life situations than their monolingual counterparts. Newer studies with more careful controls have shown that bilinguals are better at some specific tasks, such as language games, but that otherwise the differences between bilinguals and monolinguals are negligible."

My own daughter went through a difficult period at school where she wasn't turning in work to her teacher and what she was submitting was often incomplete. It turned out that my daughter writes quite slowly and the teacher had cleaned the board before she'd got everything down. There were a few tears but no bruises and any physical punishment over a matter like this would probably have made her clam up and we'd never have got to the bottom of it. My daughter's teachers have all been approachable once they get over the excitement of talking to a farang.

I know you say your wife doesn't see this as a problem but make sure she realizes how strongly you feel about this. My wife thinks it's acceptable for teachers to pinch - but would go through the roof if it caused bruising (just asked her).

I would suggest that you get your wife to speak to the teacher first (maybe pointing out the bruise and asking what happened), with you present but calm. This is not because you should be afraid of her mafia relatives , but just because an angry slanging match will leave you looking like the villain of the piece. See if the teacher is then willing to talk about your daughter's progress at school. If not satisfied, go to the principal. I don't think you're going to get very far if you can't enlist your wife's help though.

Edited July 16, 2005 by Tarragona

[MikeRay]

To the op

Take her out of the Thai education system and give her a better chance of learning how to think

@jackr

Exactly what I thought.The school system is one of our main reasons to stay in good ol´europe.And private, international schools would burden our budget with 2 kids.

[Nickerelastic]

Hi All,

this afternoon my 8 yo daughter comes home from school with an ugly bruise on her stomach. How says I, teacher done that she says. Why ? because I'm slow and can't learn. I want to go and ring the teacher bitches neck.

Make an official complaint.

Take your daughter out of that school

name and shame the teacher

[camerata]

Hi All,

this afternoon my 8 yo daughter comes home from school with an ugly bruise on her stomach. How says I, teacher done that she says. Why ? because I'm slow and can't learn. I want to go and ring the teacher bitches neck.

At least take a photo of the bruise (with the date on it) in case it happens again and you are forced to take some action. Without your wife's support, though, this is going to be difficult. Do you know the local phuyai-ban, or someone else with influence you could gently voice your concerns to? Some teachers actually supplement their income by giving private lessons to kids. That might be one way your daughter could catch up without your complaining and butting heads with the teacher.

I watch the kids in my family over the past 12 years and when they start school they seem to be fairly intellegent little kids but that changes over the next 11 or 12 years and it seems that they get some of there spirit broken.

I usually keep this to myself but since I'm in the mood for it, I don't think Thai's are born stupid they get made that way by their education system. One of my things as a father is to try and make sure that my daughters will is not broken by the education system here.

It does seem to be designed to turn out mindlessly obedient kids who respect all elders and don't criticize. This is why so many middle-class Thais sacrifice a lot to send their kids to an international school.

[Nickerelastic]

Children should feel safe at all times.

[yoot]

Joe,

Before you are going to take action with that teacher. There are a few questions I want to ask you.

- Is this school a public or private school? If it's a public school so it's worthless to take action with that teacher.

- Is it possible for you to change a new school for your daughter? If yes, then you can follow by uncle paul's advice, in case of you might get the bad result at the end then you can change to a new school.

My advice is you and your wife should try to help out your daughter with her studying .Cheer her up and tell her that she is not slow ,she can learn but when she is in class , please pay attention on her teacher to avoid the punishment. We can't stop her teacher to do this with students but we can protect ourselves from her.

Then, send a letter to the teacher. Tell her politely that you felt upset when you saw an ugly bruise on your daughter's stomach but you understand sometimes teaching kids isn't an easy job. Anyway you hope her won't do this with your daughter anymore. If next time your kid has any problems with studying ,please contact you directly and you will try to solve those problems by don't need to do a corporal punishment with your daughter.

You don't need to talk to her, just send her the letter, no argument, no losing face , no bad effect back to your daughter and it should end up very well. ( From my ex-experience )

If you can't find anyone to write this letter in Thai to you, PM me.

[Nickerelastic]

strawberry

Protect your child

[Dakhar]

I'm not completely against corporal punishment for extreme disciplinary cases but it is utterly abhorrent as an approach to dealing with learning difficulties.

Bilingualism does not cause learning difficulties (Dakhar has pointed out possible problems with language delay but I'm guessing Thai is the dominant language anyway?) but this is a myth that persists.

The studies you refer to may be those mentioned here:

"Old, poorly designed studies done primarily in the United States claimed to show that bilinguals had lower intelligence than monolinguals. Newer research has revealed several flaws in the studies. The most obvious flaw is that the bilingual children were recent immigrants, with poorer knowledge of English and more stressful life situations than their monolingual counterparts. Newer studies with more careful controls have shown that bilinguals are better at some specific tasks, such as language games, but that otherwise the differences between bilinguals and monolinguals are negligible."

Sorry, but I have a doctorate in speech and hearing sciences, specializing in audiology. I do think I have enough background to speak with little authority on the subject.

A myth, not at all a myth. Secondly if you have a language delay, how can one recieve instruction? This is what leads to the learning delay.

The studies that I draw my knowledge upon are not only based on imigrants but also hearing children born to deaf parents and deaf children born to hearing parents.

But I am not here to spend my time teaching langguage development. You can find that information on your own time.

[Tarragona]

Sorry, but I have a doctorate in speech and hearing sciences, specializing in audiology.  I do think I have enough background to speak with little authority on the subject.

A myth, not at all a myth. Secondly if you have a language delay, how can one recieve instruction? This is what leads to the learning delay.

The studies that I draw my knowledge upon are not only based on imigrants but also hearing children born to deaf parents and deaf children born to hearing parents. 

But I am not here to spend my time teaching langguage development. You can find that information on your own time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I might not have phrased my post very well, I'm afraid, as I wasn't really taking issue with anything you said. Apologies for any offence. It's also a topic on which I've done some research though not to your level.

[Nickerelastic]

Sorry, but I have a doctorate in speech and hearing sciences, specializing in audiology.  I do think I have enough background to speak with little authority on the subject.

A myth, not at all a myth. Secondly if you have a language delay, how can one recieve instruction? This is what leads to the learning delay.

The studies that I draw my knowledge upon are not only based on imigrants but also hearing children born to deaf parents and deaf children born to hearing parents. 

But I am not here to spend my time teaching langguage development. You can find that information on your own time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I might not have phrased my post very well, I'm afraid, as I wasn't really taking issue with anything you said. Apologies for any offence. It's also a topic on which I've done some research though not to your level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Address the fact that "strawberry's" daughter had bruises.

[thaibebop]

Wow Strawberry you are a strong man. Any one lays a hand on my daughter they're dead. I admire your cool. I hope the works out for you.

[mpdkorat]

Wow Strawberry you are a strong man. Any one lays a hand on my daughter they're dead. I admire your cool. I hope the works out for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A very big ditto.

As a previous poster stated you will not get very far without your wife being involved in this.

[Neeranam]

Wow this is a tricky one.

Forget the "if anyone touches my daughter they're dead approach". That won't do any good. I say the same myself, but I hope I would manage to keep calm and solve things out - it is a cool rod that bends hot iron.

I tend to agree with K.Yoot in that if she is in a public school, you would be wasting your time trying to get anything changed, and forget totally any thoughts about pressing charges.

I worked in Thai schools for quite a few years and saw lots of things go on.

There are many farang who say that their kids get picked on because of their farang gene. This isn't usually the case. Quite often farang kids are spoilt, getting lots of things their own way. First I would check that she wasn't doing anything else, as this pinching is not usually for being slow, but for being cheeky or naughty.

Maybe, well probably surely, your daughter is being treated differently/specially by the other kids and teachers. Maybe she is trying to do what she gets off with other teachers but it doesn't work with this particular one. Don't get me wrong, it is certainly not her fault that she was physically abused.

More importantly, what can you do to stop this?

Do you want revenge?

She is in the Thai system, she can do things the Thai way and you can accept it or not. If not, you may cause a very very big resentment against her and/or you and your family. A bruise will go away pretty quickly, but if you stir things up it may be worse in the future(Can you aford to move?), unless you know people in power or a position of authority. This teacher probably knows if you do or not. Remember stay cool. Do things the Thai way, which will involve your wife's opinion. Of course, in the West this is totally unacceptable, but remember you can't have the best of both worlds, which are fortunately or unfortunately very different.

Writing a letter as K.Yoot suggested is what I would do.

Good luck

[Ijustwannateach]

At a school I once worked at, a Thai teacher informed me that corporal punishment was definitely illegal; but after that law was passed the PTA at the school unanimously requested that the school CONTINUE to use it because they were afraid the kids would go out of control. Perhaps this is overtly or tacitly the situation at your school; you might find that Thai parents do not see the situation the same way- anyway, you should probably check it out. Do you go to PTA meetings for your school? If so, then you might be able to address the situation without anyone losing face by informing (all) your daughter's teachers that you do *not* want corporal punishment for her like the other parents, and work out some alternative disciplinary arrangements with which you agree.

I consider the law making corporal punishment illegal a good thing; however, they didn't replace it with anything- they don't have detention, in-school or out-of-school suspension, or any of those other things here. Expulsions are rare, too.

"Steven"

[otherstuff1957]

I've come to believe that the problem with corporal punishment is that it trains children that discipline and good behavior are external things that are forced upon them by an adult. It is much more difficult to actually teach a child to be responsible.

For your situation, I'd agree with the others who say that your wife should handle the situation. Try having a long, serious chat with your wife to let her know that you are really concerned about this issue. Then have her talk, either to that teacher or to another teacher, and let them know that, regardless of how much they beat the other children you do not want them to hit your daughter. If you daughter has problems with learning or discipline, have them send a note home with her or maybe just give them your wife's cell phone number. I think if you try to stay really involved the teachers will understand that you care and will try to make a little extra effort with your daughter.

Also, if your daughter is going to a government school have you considered sending her to a Catholic School? There are a lot of them around, even upcountry, and they aren't that expensive.

[siamesekitty]

As iwannateach mentioned earlier, many Thais might think differently. A lot of Thai adults I know feel that the strictest teachers - many of who used rods or rulers to keep them in line - ended up being the best teachers they ever had. Just to warn you that you might not get a whole lot of support from the principal or other parents, as they may feel that you're babying your kid.

Much of the "Spare the rod, spoil the child" way of thinking here.

[Neeranam]

Also, if your daughter is going to a government school have you considered sending her to a Catholic School? There are a lot of them around, even upcountry, and they aren't that expensive.

In my experience these catholic schools are worse for hitting the kids.

[Greer]

Punishment like this, and even stiking the children, is common here.

This is not to say I support it, and I certainly do not condone this kind of abuse - pinching a child to the point where it causes bruising is unacceptable.

I must also say that I don't completely agree with letting children do what they like without fear of punishment either - but this particular case is nothing to do with punishment for bad behaviour - but simply for being a bit slow in picking up the lesson - this is completely unreasonable.

My early education was at a time when the possibility of getting a cane across the backside was enough reason not to play up at school, and I think the Thai system is still in that stage of development - and I actually don't want my children to go to a school where they can rule the roost - but I also don't want them to be attacked or victimised either.

Although we are Buddhist, my kids have been going to a Catholic school for the last few years and the schooling is excellent, and they are no more exposed to hitting than at any other school in the kingdom.

None of this is meant as supporting abuse such as that your daughter has experienced, but you really need to be careful how you handle the situation - if you were in Bangkok or any other large city it would be easier to take action, but in small communities, consideration of the political situation is also important.

By the way - some years ago a report in the Singapore Straits Times covering a government study of children in monolingual and bilingual (or multilingual) schools claimed that children from monolingual schools attained on average, poorer scores than those from bilingual or multilingual schools and family backgrounds.

I guess the only thing I can add there is that the Singaporean Government was also promoting the adoption of Mandarin in place of dialect for all Singaporeans - and that was a dismal failure too...

[thaibebop]

At a school I once worked at, a Thai teacher informed me that corporal punishment was definitely illegal; but after that law was passed the PTA at the school unanimously requested that the school CONTINUE to use it because they were afraid the kids would go out of control.  Perhaps this is overtly or tacitly the situation at your school; you might find that Thai parents do not see the situation the same way- anyway, you should probably check it out.  Do you go to PTA meetings for your school?  If so, then you might be able to address the situation without anyone losing face by informing (all) your daughter's teachers that you do *not* want corporal punishment for her like the other parents, and work out some alternative disciplinary arrangements with which you agree.

I consider the law making corporal punishment illegal a good thing; however, they didn't replace it with anything- they don't have detention, in-school or out-of-school suspension, or any of those other things here.  Expulsions are rare, too.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would it work if Strawberry talked to the teacher in private and asked her nicely not to do things like this? Would a Thai teacher be nice enough to agree?

I was thinking of being a teahcer in Thailand. What happens if you see something like this go too far? Can you do something about it, is so, what?