Ordination Practicalities

[householder]

Hi all,

I posted on a different website about ordaining within the next few years in a Thai Forest Tradition monastery in Thailand. I was advised that a period of familiarisation with Thai culture for a few months, whilst doing reccies of Wats, would be the best way forward.

I've never been to Thailand before.

However, I am of the view that the education, experience and monastic lifestyle offered by the Wats in Thailand will be the most beneficial to furthering my development along the Path. I appreciate that there are also downsides and a whole new set of challenges that come with monastic life. I've undertaken retreats and general visits to monasteries over the last year or so, with more lined up, and have a familiarity with the schedules of daily monastic life.

I've done some cursory research. From what I understand so far, one way of doing it would be to rent a cheap place, study a TEFL course in Bangkok and eke out a living as a teacher for a while, in Bangkok or in locations where the monasteries will actually be located (to cover expenses and living costs, as well as meet the lay community who will support the monastery) whilst dipping into savings (around 500k baht ideally) for reccie tours of monasteries, visa runs (if I can't get a WP) as needed and to adjust and familiarise to Thai culture and food. This would be until I'm familiar and comfortable with a particular monastery to ordain.

Can anyone advise on the above? And would 500k baht savings be a suitable cushion to cover any shortfall in expenses/living costs if a teaching position isn't available or pays enough to cover living costs? I don't drink and wouldn't be taking part in the nightlife.

Also is it possible to switch from a WP to a non-immigrant 'O' visa once I ordain?

Or am I approaching this from completely the wrong angle?

Metta,

Householder

PS - Just to clarify - all matters such as savings etc. will of course be suitably dealt with prior to ordination.

Edited September 7, 2010 by householder

[luangtom]

Your intentions are honorable. However, I think you would find it difficult to head-quarter yourself in Bangkok and try to investigate Forest Tradition temples from there. They are rural and have few ties to Bangkok. To get to know the lay-supporters of these wats one needs to mingle with the local residents of the villages surrounding them, not with lay-supporters in Bangkok. It is a place of contrasts and the Buddhism of Bangkok in no way mirrors that of Forest Tradition in rural Thailand.

Two different lineages of Forest Tradition in two different locations cater to farang or foreign adherents. One is in Udon Thani province. It is Wat Pa Baan That, home of revered Ajahn Maha Boowa. Another is in Ubon province. It is Wat Pah Nanachat. Followers of the now deceased Ajahn Chah reside here. There are others, but these two are the predominant of them.

With the funding that you write of, you could easily reside nearby either of these two and make your observations and decisions concerning your future in pursuing the Path. Both have monks that are native-speakers of English and both have monks that would be able to teach you Thai, as you grow in your endeavor.

Chok dee.

[fabianfred]

Suan Mohk might be an alternative..... or even coming on the Monk for a Month project...which is now donation based.

[Brucenkhamen]

If you are planning to travel around a few Wats over the period of a few months then I think that would be enough to familiarise yourself with Thai culture.

If you want to get serious about learning the language then attending one of the language schools might be a good idea, but it's not really necessary unless you want to ordain somewhere where nobody speaks english.

Your plan to teach english doesn't really make sense unless you are not really sure whether you want to ordain, perhaps thinking of finding a Thai wife as an option.

Once you ordain then your visa situation changes though it may take some time to sort through so expect to do 1 or 2 more visa runs.

[householder]

Thanks for the replies. The teaching idea was to earn enough to cover expenses whilst familiarising. But as pointed out that'd just mean living in Bangkok and spending money there with minimal benefit. I'll just ensure I have sufficient savings and make careful use of them whilst visiting Wats. I envisage that a lot of the cost will be in travel and visa runs.

fabianfred I have a couple of specific questions re Monk for a Month so will PM you. I've seen some of your other posts here and on Dhamma Wheel about it.

[rockyysdt]

I recommend a stay at the Wat Suan Mokkh Retreat which is situated in a forest setting approximately 800 kms south of Bangkok.

Headed by the venerable Ajahn Po, the retreat is run for 10 days from the 1st day of every month, includes food & accommodation for a fee of 2,000 baht, and will give you a taste of their philosophy and teaching.

After the retreat visitors are made welcome to stay at the Monastery dormitory at no cost.

Monastery volunteers provide buffet style vegetarian meals for visitors upon the purchase of a meal coupon which sells for 35 baht.

Staying here will not impact on your budget whilst you familiarize yourself with the teachings on offer.

http://www.suanmokkh-idh.org/

http://www.suanmokkh.info/

http://www.dipabhava...le&Id=538637615

Edited September 9, 2010 by rockyysdt

[luangtom]

Theoretically, Wat Suan Mohk is not a Forest Tradition wat. It is set in a forest, but Buddhadasa Bhikkhu was not a monk in the Forest Tradition of Ajahn Mun Bhuridatto or of Ajahn Chah. The wats in the N.E. are Forest Tradition. Wat Suan Mohk is a wat of international influence and non-contemporary practice, not of wandering tradition.

Wat Suan Mohk is a wonderful place to learn of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's works and philosophies. It does not teach Kammathana as practiced by Forest Tradition wats.

[rockyysdt]

Theoretically, Wat Suan Mohk is not a Forest Tradition wat. It is set in a forest, but Buddhadasa Bhikkhu was not a monk in the Forest Tradition of Ajahn Mun Bhuridatto or of Ajahn Chah. The wats in the N.E. are Forest Tradition. Wat Suan Mohk is a wat of international influence and non-contemporary practice, not of wandering tradition.

Wat Suan Mohk is a wonderful place to learn of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's works and philosophies. It does not teach Kammathana as practiced by Forest Tradition wats.

Thanks LT.

I wasn't aware of the specific teachings associated with the Forest Tradition.

This opens up a new area of learning for me.

Kammatthana

The first ten kammatthana are "wholes" (kasina objects, things which one can behold directly):

(1) earth, (2) water, (3) fire, (4) air, wind, (5) blue, green, (6) yellow, (7) red, (8) white, (9) enclosed space, (10) bright light. The next ten are objects of repulsion (asubha):

(1) swollen corpse, (2) discolored, bluish, corpse, (3) festering corpse, (4) fissured corpse, (5) gnawed corpse, (6,7) dismembered, or hacked and scattered, corpse, (8) bleeding corpse, (9) worm-eaten corpse, (10) skeleton. Ten are recollections (anussati):

First three recollections are of the virtues of the Three Jewels: (1) Buddha(2) Dharma(3) Sangha Next three are recollections of the virtues of: (4) morality (sīla)(5) liberality (cāga)(6) the wholesome attributes of Devas Recollections of: (7) the body (kāya)(8) death (see Upajjhatthana Sutta)(9) the breath (prāna) or breathing (ānāpāna)(10) peace (see Nibbana). Four are stations of Brahma (Brahma-vihara):

(1) unconditional kindness (mettā)(2) compassion (karuna)(3) sympathetic joy over another's success (mudita)(4) evenmindedness, equanimity (upekkha) Four are formless states (four arūpajhānas):

(1) infinite space(2) infinite consciousness(3) infinite nothingness(4) neither perception nor non-perception. One is of perception of disgust of food (aharepatikulasanna).

The last is analysis of the four elements (catudhatuvavatthana): earth (pathavi), water (apo), fire (tejo), air (vayo).

Edited September 10, 2010 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

My present teacher Supawan Green studied with Buddhadassa at Suan Mohke and also with LP Tian, and I consider her to have reached arahant, so the meditation methods are probably good enough to go all the way.

[camerata]

Kammatthana literally means "basis of work" or "place of work". It describes the contemplation of certain meditation themes used by a meditating monk so the forces of defilement (kilesa), craving (tanha), and ignorance (avijja) may be uprooted from the mind. Although kammatthana can be found in many meditation-related subjects, the term is most often used to identify the forest tradition (the Kammatthana tradition) lineage founded by Ajaan Sao Kantasilo Mahathera and his student Ajaan Mun Bhuridatta Mahathera.

The origin of the name Forest tradition came from the theory that the Buddha himself gained awakening in a forest, gave his first sermon in a forest, and passed away in a forest. The qualities of mind he needed in order to survive physically and mentally in the wilds, were key to his discovery of the Dhamma. Therefore every practitioner should take the wilderness as the teacher, conform to the ways of nature – the samsara itself -- and break through to truths transcending them entirely.

See also The Customs of the Noble Ones.

[sabaijai]

The Thai forest tradition appears to have more than its share of arahants, householder.

And would 500k baht savings be a suitable cushion to cover any shortfall in expenses/living costs if a teaching position isn't available or pays enough to cover living costs? I don't drink and wouldn't be taking part in the nightlife.

IMO that amount of savings would indeed be sufficient to start with.

A

lso is it possible to switch from a WP to a non-immigrant 'O' visa once I ordain?

Yes. You would need to go to the 'Change Visa' department at immigration in Bangkok.

One more consideration is the fact that most monasteries in the Ajahn Chah/Ajahn Mun tradition require that you spend a few months (up to a year in some cases) living at the wat as a white-clothed layperson before you ordain. It's best to contact one of the forest wats well in advance to arrange residency. They can also assist with immigration requirements. There's usually no need to leave the country to do this.

See the pinned topic on for lists of monasteries and other centres. There is also a pinned topic on visas.

[bodhi8412]

Hi Householder,

I'm also looking to ordain in the next few years. At the moment I'm saving funds for airfare and whatever else is necessary. (i.e., visas, travel expenses) I hope to have 5k usd saved by the summer of 2011 so that I can go in the fall or early 2012. This I hope will be sufficient funds. I'm looking in going to the north of Thailand to ordain.

[khaowong1]

Your intentions are honorable. However, I think you would find it difficult to head-quarter yourself in Bangkok and try to investigate Forest Tradition temples from there. They are rural and have few ties to Bangkok. To get to know the lay-supporters of these wats one needs to mingle with the local residents of the villages surrounding them, not with lay-supporters in Bangkok. It is a place of contrasts and the Buddhism of Bangkok in no way mirrors that of Forest Tradition in rural Thailand.

Two different lineages of Forest Tradition in two different locations cater to farang or foreign adherents. One is in Udon Thani province. It is Wat Pa Baan That, home of revered Ajahn Maha Boowa. Another is in Ubon province. It is Wat Pah Nanachat. Followers of the now deceased Ajahn Chah reside here. There are others, but these two are the predominant of them.

With the funding that you write of, you could easily reside nearby either of these two and make your observations and decisions concerning your future in pursuing the Path. Both have monks that are native-speakers of English and both have monks that would be able to teach you Thai, as you grow in your endeavor.

Chok dee.

this is one excellant response. you can no way get the flavor of the Forest tradition living in Bangkok. Those are two different worlds. Great response Luangtom.

[householder]

Your intentions are honorable. However, I think you would find it difficult to head-quarter yourself in Bangkok and try to investigate Forest Tradition temples from there. They are rural and have few ties to Bangkok. To get to know the lay-supporters of these wats one needs to mingle with the local residents of the villages surrounding them, not with lay-supporters in Bangkok. It is a place of contrasts and the Buddhism of Bangkok in no way mirrors that of Forest Tradition in rural Thailand.

Two different lineages of Forest Tradition in two different locations cater to farang or foreign adherents. One is in Udon Thani province. It is Wat Pa Baan That, home of revered Ajahn Maha Boowa. Another is in Ubon province. It is Wat Pah Nanachat. Followers of the now deceased Ajahn Chah reside here. There are others, but these two are the predominant of them.

With the funding that you write of, you could easily reside nearby either of these two and make your observations and decisions concerning your future in pursuing the Path. Both have monks that are native-speakers of English and both have monks that would be able to teach you Thai, as you grow in your endeavor.

Chok dee.

this is one excellant response. you can no way get the flavor of the Forest tradition living in Bangkok. Those are two different worlds. Great response Luangtom.

Agreed this, and all the other replies, are very helpful indeed.

I take it I can wander from monastery to monastery, staying at each for a few weeks/months, until one is found that feels 'right' to ordain at?

[luangtom]

There are options outside of Thailand for experiencing the Forest Tradition. Great Britain has a Forest Tradition monastery with disciples of Ajahn Chah and the USA also has Forest Tradition monasteries started and run by adherents of the teachings of Ajahn Chah, most of which are in California. Their particulars are easily found online.

These are just alternatives if one cannot make the trip to Thailand and stay for an extended period of time.

[householder]

Thank Luangtom. I have short stays planned next month and in November at Amaravati and Aruna Ratanagiri.

[luangtom]

Thank Luangtom. I have short stays planned next month and in November at Amaravati and Aruna Ratanagiri.

Chok dee. Do let us know of your experiences there.

[householder]

Well due to illness I stayed just one day at Aruna Ratnagiri but stayed for my intended duration at Amaravati. Both were very interesting experiences and from a very small sample I found (an admittedly altered for that period) monastic schedule to be quite agreeable.

The advice I was given by monks there was to spend as much time in different monasteries as possible prior to ordaining. This will form the bulk of my holiday time in 2011. I am visiting Wat Buddhapadipa (albeit only for the day) in January and will arrange to stay for a longer period later this year. I appreciate, of course, that there are different monasteries to those of the Forest Tradition, but this tradition predominates in the UK.

My research has intensified since last posting on here. I've read papers such as 'Broken Buddha' and others on the difficulties Westerners face, perused forums and looked at information on the positives and negatives. The more I read, the more the romantic notions are quickly dispelled. It will be hard work and my experiences will differ depending on the Wat I am at. However, the interest has strengthened rather than waned as a result of these enquiries.

Clearly, basing and/or working in BKK will be counterproductive. I shall identify Wats online and itinerise visits to these prior to coming over, then spend time at each, subject to availability, advance notice etc. I've been in touch with fred about his Wat and information generally - he's been extremely helpful and this will be one of the first, if not the first I visit! I'll no doubt meet people who will recommend particular teachers or Wats and will come across others myself. A degree of flexibility will be of benefit. It is natural that I will have an idea of what I would like, and that between this 'shopping list' (opportunities for social engagement - such as the Buddha Metta project, learning Thai, intensive sutta study and meditation along with periods of solitary retreat) and reality will fall a shadow. That's just how things are. I also run the risk, with this approach, of 'Wat shopping' trying to find a nonexistent perfect Wat, which will lead to expectation and subsequent suffering when those expectations fail to be met. So I need to be careful how I approach this and check myself as I go along.

Any more recommendations or input much appreciated. If I'm getting carried away, please give me the kick up the backside needed!

Edited December 25, 2010 by householder

[Brucenkhamen]

Clearly, basing and/or working in BKK will be counterproductive. I shall identify Wats online and itinerise visits to these prior to coming over, then spend time at each, subject to availability, advance notice etc. I've been in touch with fred about his Wat and information generally - he's been extremely helpful and this will be one of the first, if not the first I visit! I'll no doubt meet people who will recommend particular teachers or Wats and will come across others myself. A degree of flexibility will be of benefit. It is natural that I will have an idea of what I would like, and that between this 'shopping list' (opportunities for social engagement - such as the Buddha Metta project, learning Thai, intensive sutta study and meditation along with periods of solitary retreat) and reality will fall a shadow. That's just how things are. I also run the risk, with this approach, of 'Wat shopping' trying to find a nonexistent perfect Wat, which will lead to expectation and subsequent suffering when those expectations fail to be met. So I need to be careful how I approach this and check myself as I go along.

Be flexible with your itinerary. A lot of what you will find online is 10-20 years old and has info on Wats most accessible to casual westerner meditators. If you start somewhere like Wat Pah Nanachat I think you'll get recommendations from people on Wats that weren't so well known 10-20 years ago but may have become well recommended due to now having a respected teacher.

[endure]

Well due to illness I stayed just one day at Aruna Ratnagiri but stayed for my intended duration at Amaravati. Both were very interesting experiences and from a very small sample I found (an admittedly altered for that period) monastic schedule to be quite agreeable.

The advice I was given by monks there was to spend as much time in different monasteries as possible prior to ordaining. This will form the bulk of my holiday time in 2011. I am visiting Wat Buddhapadipa (albeit only for the day) in January and will arrange to stay for a longer period later this year. I appreciate, of course, that there are different monasteries to those of the Forest Tradition, but this tradition predominates in the UK.

You might want to consider visiting or taking part in a retreat at the Forest Hermitage (Wat Pah Santidhamma) just outside Warwick. Ajahn Khemadammo is a direct disciple of Ajahn Chah but he's English and used to dealing with English folks who want to study Buddhism and/or ordain. The website is here.

[fabianfred]

Start learning Thai..... including reading it.... there are some great resources and teaching available on the internet now even if you are not near native speakers.

Reading will help you with your chanting.

[rockyysdt]

Start learning Thai..... including reading it.... there are some great resources and teaching available on the internet now even if you are not near native speakers.

Reading will help you with your chanting.

This site isn't bad.

It also includes phonetics.

http://www.thai-language.com/

[householder]

I couldn't multi-quote all replies:

Didn't consider WPN initially for various reasons but the above suggestion alone is enough to warrant a visit.

I met a Sri Lankan monk at Amaravati whom I'm in contact with who is at the Forest Hermitage. I intend to visit this year.

Very good advice and site recommendation. Thanks! Will make a start. For my sutta study, learning Pali appears to be a step in the right direction also, but learning Thai ought to be a priority for obvious reasons (getting about, chanting, communicating, understanding).

[lungmi]

I couldn't multi-quote all replies:

Didn't consider WPN initially for various reasons but the above suggestion alone is enough to warrant a visit.

I met a Sri Lankan monk at Amaravati whom I'm in contact with who is at the Forest Hermitage. I intend to visit this year.

Very good advice and site recommendation. Thanks! Will make a start. For my sutta study, learning Pali appears to be a step in the right direction also, but learning Thai ought to be a priority for obvious reasons (getting about, chanting, communicating, understanding).

All advices are good.

I invite you to a complementary stop on your itinerary. Forgotten Wat in the mountains, one Phra (English, Pali,Thai at the highest level). Pali and Thai Teacher for my student before

http://leeds.wreac.org/staff/martin-seeger

No ordination, no meditation instruction, learn to stay with Thammaschaat (nature), how to love scorpions, snakes and plants.

If you want to know, you can ask your kalyanamitta (your spirtual friend), the abbot will answer you.

For medical problems you have me. I have a clinique in the Wat.

[endure]

I met a Sri Lankan monk at Amaravati whom I'm in contact with who is at the Forest Hermitage. I intend to visit this year.

Might be an idea to ring ahead. The Ajahn's pretty busy most of the time.

[a99az]

Hi all, I have a very good friend in England who phoned me today and has said that he wishes to ordain as a monk here in Thailand and could I help him find a Temple. He intends to remain a monk for the rest of his life. He has asked me to find out what visa he should apply for. From what I have found on the net he should come to Thailand and find a Temple to ordain at. I would sponsor him and then he would have to get a visa.

What would he need to renew his three month visa, and would it be a one year visa?

Any advice would be most welcome, he has said he would like to be near to Phayao or Chiang Mai / Rai so any info about English speaking small Temples here, would be of great help.

[PoorSucker]

From police order 777/2551

2.13 In the case of study of Buddhism or religious function:

Permission will be granted for a period of not more than 1 year at a time.

(1)The alien has obtained a temporary visa (NON-IM);

(2)Confirmation has been issued by the National Buddhism Office or the National Buddhism Office of the Prime Minister’s Office or the Mahachulalongkorn University; and

(3)Confirmation has been issued by the abbot of the temple where the applicant is studying or performing the religious function

[Brucenkhamen]

Has he had much contact with any of the monasteries in England? Has he stayed in any of them for a length of time? If not that's the best place to start to get advice on what monasteries in Thailand might be a giood place to ordain and what to expect from monastic life in Thailand.

[jdinasia]

Concur --- starting at the Thai temple in Wimbledon might be his best bet.

Other than that Section 5 at Wat Mahathat (close to Thammasat University and between TU and the National Museum) would be the place to go in Thailand. Being allowed to ordain at any given temple is not automatic and if your friend has never spent any time in Thailand, he should do so before he ordains. Particularly if he has had limited access to Thai Buddhism, Thai Culture, and just living in the tropics. If he plans on ordaining upcountry it wouldn't hurt for him to spend a year here first learning Thai.

[fabianfred]

Come up and stay with us for a while..... get to know temple life...ordain as a Novice for a while...then think about full monkhood later.

http://www.monkforamonth.com/

http://www.facebook.com/monk4amonth

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=529691988&v=feed&viewas=529691988

come on tourist visa.... can change to 'R' one-year permission after ordained .