Ninth 9/11 Anniversary Marked By Controversy As Relatives Gather

[webfact]

Ninth 9/11 anniversary marked by controversy as relatives gather

© 2010 Text and Photos: BNO News for thaivisa.com

NEW YORK CITY (BNO NEWS) -- The ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the United States was marked by controversy on Saturday, as family members and friends of the victims gathered in New York, Pennsylvania, and at the Pentagon.

The memorials to remember the victims began at 8.40 a.m. EDT on Ground Zero, the place where once the twin towers stood until two hijacked airliners crashed into them on September 11, 2001 and reduced them to rubble, killing 2,752 people.

The memorial at Ground Zero began with a brief speech by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who was joined at the event by Vice President Joe Biden, his wife, and Governor David Patterson. "We have returned to this sacred site to join our hearts together, the names of those we loved and lost," Bloomberg said. "No other public tragedy has cut our city so deeply. No other place is as filled with our compassion, our love and our solidarity."

Bloomberg's short speech was followed by a moment of silence that began at 8.46 a.m. to mark the time the first hijacked airliner - American Airlines Flight 11 - crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center. Then the first of 212 readers (106 pairs), including Biden, began to read the names of the more than 2,700 people who died.

The reading of names, which has become an annual tradition, continued until 9.03 a.m. when another moment of silence was held. It marked the moment that United Airlines Flight 175 crashed into the South Tower of the World Trade Center.

Meanwhile, relatives of victims gathered at the Pentagon Memorial in Washington, D.C. to remember those who died when American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the headquarters of the U.S. Department of Defense.

The memorial opened on the seventh anniversary of the September 11, 2001 attacks and was built adjacent to the Pentagon. In all, 125 Pentagon workers and 59 passengers died that day.

Most notably at the Pentagon Memorial, President Barack Obama held a nine-minute speech where he was joined by Secretary Gates and Admiral Mullen. His wife, Michelle Obama, traveled to Stonycreek Township in Pennsylvania where United Airlines Flight 93 crashed.

"For our nation, this is a day of remembrance, a day of reflection, and -- with God’s grace -- a day of unity and renewal," Obama told an audience that included mainly members of the Armed Forces. "We gather to remember, at this sacred hour, on hallowed ground -- at places where we feel such grief and where our healing goes on. We gather here, at the Pentagon, where the names of the lost are forever etched in stone. We gather in a gentle Pennsylvania field, where a plane went down and a 'tower of voices' will rise and echo through the ages. And we gather where the Twin Towers fell, a site where the work goes on so that next year, on the 10th anniversary, the waters will flow in steady tribute to the nearly 3,000 innocent lives."

Obama said those who died were civilians and service members who were white, black and brown and of many faiths. "They were Americans and people from far corners of the world. And they were snatched from us senselessly and much too soon -- but they lived well, and they live on in you."

Obama, who also spoke during last year's memorial, said citizens have to ask themselves how to best honor the victims and how to preserve their legacy. "It must seem some days as though the world has moved on to other things. I say to you today that your loved ones endure in the heart of our nation, now and forever," the president told their relatives.

The President said al-Qaeda did not only attack America, but attacked the 'very idea' of America itself. "They doubted our will, but as Americans we persevere. Today, in Afghanistan and beyond, we have gone on the offensive and struck major blows against al Qaeda and its allies. We will do what is necessary to protect our country, and we honor all those who serve to keep us safe."

"They may seek to strike fear in us, but they are no match for our resilience. We do not succumb to fear, nor will we squander the optimism that has always defined us as a people. On a day when others sought to destroy, we have chosen to build, with a National Day of Service and Remembrance that summons the inherent goodness of the American people."

But the nine year since the attacks on the United States were marked by the U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that saw nearly 6,000 American service members being killed. "Our troops and their families have paid a steep price these last nine years, but have also shown resilience and strength in the best traditions of the country, a country that cherishes their service and the memory of those who have fallen," Gates said at the ceremony.

Meanwhile at Ground Zero in New York City, relatives of the victims there prepared for a third moment of silence at 9.59 a.m. EDT to mark the moment when the South Tower collapsed. Later, at 10.28 a.m. EDT, a fourth moment of silence was held to mark the time the North Tower collapsed.

In Pennsylvania, former First Lady Laura Bush joined First Lady Michelle Obama to honor those who died. Former President George W. Bush, however, had no public events and instead released a statement through his spokesman.

"On September 11, 2001, Americans awoke to evil on our shores," Bush said. "On this solemn day of remembrance, Laura and I hold the victims and their families in our thoughts and prayers. We recall the many acts of heroism on that day, and we honor those who work tirelessly to prevent another attack. May God bless our great country and those who defend her."

Laura Bush said she was honored to mark the anniversary with the families of the 40 men and women who died aboard Flight 93, after passengers had tried to regain control of the aircraft to prevent it from crashing in the U.S. capital. "When I first came here on September 17, 2001, this quiet field was scarred by a smoldering crater," Ms. Bush said. "Our grief was raw and our heartache was heavy. We were just learning the names of those aboard Flight 93, and the story of their sacrifice."

Ms. Bush said the field where Flight 93 crashed was not chosen by terrorists, as passengers were able to prevent the plane from reaching Washington, D.C. " They had other targets for their violence and hate," she said. "This spot was chosen by the passengers of Flight 93, who spared our country from even greater horrors. And as we gather to remember those who were lost and honor their courage, we are deeply grateful."

"Nine years ago - in the skies above this field, and in Washington and New York City, we saw the worst of our enemy and the best of our nation. And we were suddenly reminded of many, half-forgotten lessons. We saw that there is evil in the world - but also good at the heart of our country. America was attacked, but the deepest belief of our democracy was vindicated -- that our greatness and strength is found in the character of our citizens. Americans responded with heroism and selflessness; with compassion and courage; and with prayer and hope."

But the anniversary this year was marked by controversy, two even, but one that caused great outrage across the world. The first controversy was caused when Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf announced that an Islamic Center would be build close to Ground Zero.

Protesters against the mosque, although they said they are not against Muslim, said they see the center as an insensitive sign for those who lost someone in the attacks of September 11, 2001.

But others fear that denying the construction of the mosque just two blocks from Ground Zero will trigger a national backlash, and religious leaders from other faiths have joined the Muslim voices against the restriction of certain places to put up a religious center.

But a much greater controversy began just days before the ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks when pastor Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center in Florida announced that he would hold an "International Burn A Koran Day" on Saturday.

It caused great outrage across the world from political and religious leaders, but also triggered violent protests. Interpol issued a global alert in which it warned that terrorist attacks would be likely if the plan went ahead as planned.

And also Obama joined in on the issue during an interview with ABC News on Thursday. "If he's listening, I just hope he understands that what he's proposing to do is completely contrary to our values as Americans," Obama said. "This country has been built on the notions of religious freedom and religious tolerance. And as a very practical matter, as commander in chief of the armed forces of the United States, I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women in uniform who are in Iraq, who are in Afghanistan, and we are already seeing protests against Americans just by the mere threat."

Obama said the event would be a "recruitment bonanza for al-Qaeda" and feared 'serious violence' in places such as Pakistan and Afghanistan as a result. "This could increase the recruitment of individuals who are willing to blow themselves up in American cities, or European cities," the President warned.

But Jones' plan suddenly changed after he was offered a meeting with Imam Rauf in New York City. And although there were many conflicting reports on what would be discussed during the proposed meeting, Jones said he would not - and not ever - burn the Qu'ran.

But even though the plan had been canceled, some protests continued. On Friday, thousands of Afghans gathered across the country and even threatened to attack U.S. bases.

An estimated 10,000 people in Faizabad alone - capital of Badakhshan province - took the streets after Friday's prayer session that also began Eid al-Fitr celebrations, which mark the end of the Muslim holy fasting month of Ramadan. Several protesters were later reported to have sustained critical injuries by gunshots as they approached a NATO reconstruction base.

It was reported that a protester was shot dead and three others were wounded after attacking a nearby NATO base with stones in Bala Buluk in Farah province. Dr. Nasir Sultan Zada of Central Public Hospital identified the dead man as 24-year-old Muhammad Daoud.

Back in the United States, while relatives of the victims will undoubtedly continue to mourn, construction will continue for the new World Trade Center complex. It is scheduled to be completed in the spring of 2013.

_______________________________________________________

Firefighters and police surround a reflecting pool in the middle of Ground Zero before the annual memorial service September 11, 2010 in New York City. Thousands will gather to pay a solemn homage on the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people on September 11, 2001.

New York Governor David Patterson, Vice President Joe Biden, Dr, Jill Biden, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and family members (L to R) of the victims of 9/11 gather around the Ground Zero and lay a flower in the reflecting pool at the site where the twin towers once stood on the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, in New York City on September 11, 2010.

Vice President Joe Biden talks with a family member of one of the victims of 9/11 who are gathered around the Ground Zero reflecting pool at the site where the twin towers once stood, on the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, in New York City on September 11, 2010.

(L to R) Dr Jill Biden, Vice President Joe Biden, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and New York Governor David Patterson walk by the Ground Zero reflecting pool at the site where the twin towers once stood, on the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, in New York City on September 11, 2010.

New York Governor David Patterson, Vice President Joe Biden, Dr. Jill Biden, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and New Jersey Governor Chris Christie (L to R) are reflected as they gather at Ground Zero and lay flowers in the reflecting pool where the twin towers once stood, on the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, in New York City on September 11, 2010.

Family members of the victims of 9/11 gather around the Ground Zero reflecting pool at the site where the twin towers once stood on the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, in New York City on September 11, 2010.

Family members of the victims of 9/11 gather around the Ground Zero and throw flowers into a reflecting pool at the site where the twin towers once stood on the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, in New York City on September 11, 2010

Family members of the victims of 9/11 gather around the Ground Zero reflecting pool at the site where the twin towers once stood on the ninth anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, in New York City on September 11, 2010.

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden stands with his wife Jill in front of a reflecting pool at Ground Zero during the ceremony marking the ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York September 11, 2010.

Zuccotti Park on the ninth anniversary of the attack on the World Trade Center which killed nearly 3000 people. In this photo, honor guards practice a tribute with a flag from Ground Zero.

New York City Honor Guard carries a flag found at Ground Zero after the attacks to begin the ceremony commemorating the September 11th 2001 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York, USA, 11, September 2010.

US Vice President Joe Biden and his wife Dr. Jill Biden pause to reflect after placing flowers in the reflecting pool at the World Trade Center site for the ninth anniversary commemoration ceremony September 11, 2010 in New York.

Family members listen to the reading of the names of 911 victims at the ceremony commemorating the September 11th 2001 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York, USA, 11, September 2010.

--2010-09-11

[Mr Red]

9/11 was a horrific event that I hope is not repeated. We should recall that our anger should be directed at the terrorists who committed this foul deed and not the Muslim community. However, I would point out that so-called Muslims that support teachings that support outright destruction of western people as direction from above should be hunted down as the terroists they are.

God bless those that have lost their lives in this horrible tragedy.

[gregb]

Whatever your feelings of who was responsible for 9/11, whether you believe it was a conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with box cutters or whether you believe it was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the US government, everyone should be able to agree that it was not an act representative of nor supported by the vast majority of Muslims around the globe.

The planned burning of the Koran and the protests of a building mosque nearby is simply shameful, and plays right into the hands of whoever orchestrated the 9/11 tragedy.

It is a shame that we, the American people, can not even come to agreement on that which should be obvious. Blind hatred of innocent Muslims is not the answer to what ails America. The truth is something far, far closer to home, and much more personal.

This was a tragedy that affected all of us around the world, no matter our nationality, country of residence or political persuasion. My heart goes out to the families of the victims whose lives were cut short for no good reason, and hope that one day they get the justice they so desperately deserve. It is too bad this day of remembrance should be disrupted by controversy.

[Jingthing]

Happily the insane Florida so called preacher probably won't be burning anything. However, if the peaceful group of Muslims planning to build a community center and mosque "near" (not that near actually) to the 9-11 site is bullied into not building on that site, that could also be very bad for Americans abroad, as international Muslims will then CORRECTLY perceive that America really isn't about high ideals and religious freedom. Even though I personally have no interest in religion, the ideal of liberty for ALL religions including NO religions is a wonderful thing. One more thing, sorry the 9-11 site is NOT sacred ground. If just a bunch of bodies made something sacred ground most all of Europe would be sacred ground, and it's not. Please put this into PERSPECTIVE and don't fall for the Fox News 9-11 religion making that one incident the most important event in world history. Not only is that just plain stupid, it actually elevates the terrorists who did that to be more important than they are.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Jingthing

[CDNinKS]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

[sirchai]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Which would be one reason to burn the book of lies.

I might burn one now.....( not the book)

Edited September 11, 2010 by sirchai

[endure]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Really? So how do you explain the IRA, ETA, Timothy Mcveigh, the Bader Meinhof gang, the Unabomber?

[mike_rad]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Tell that to the Sri Lankans, or those in Ulster, or......

BTW, did you know that the word "terrorist" entered modern usage in the 1940s after it was popularized by the British press in response to Jewish activities against the British in Palestine?

[Longtooth]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Which would be one reason to burn the book of lies.

I might burn one now.....( not the book)

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

[OzMick]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Which would be one reason to burn the book of lies.

I might burn one now.....( not the book)

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

To read the Koran you would have to learn Arabic, as Muslims believe that it is the literal word of god and any translation would be prone to error - a concept that only arose some 900 years after its writing. Problems arise in that Arabic words have a range of meanings defined by context. As the language has changed over the last 1400 years, some passages are unclear, and others convey to the modern reader a concept far removed from the original, or so scholars say.

It is believed to be a revelation to Mohammed, and inarguably correct, paradoxes included. It is truly a miracle that 1400 years ago (or 2000 if you follow the other mob) they got religion absolutely right when they knew close to SFA about anything else.

[onnut]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Dunno about that, there are Irish terrorists, red shirt terrorists. They are not Muslims.

[Jingthing]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

First part -- true.

Second part -- false.

[orangezeke]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Which would be one reason to burn the book of lies.

I might burn one now.....( not the book)

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

To read the Koran you would have to learn Arabic, as Muslims believe that it is the literal word of god and any translation would be prone to error - a concept that only arose some 900 years after its writing. Problems arise in that Arabic words have a range of meanings defined by context. As the language has changed over the last 1400 years, some passages are unclear, and others convey to the modern reader a concept far removed from the original, or so scholars say.

It is believed to be a revelation to Mohammed, and inarguably correct, paradoxes included. It is truly a miracle that 1400 years ago (or 2000 if you follow the other mob) they got religion absolutely right when they knew close to SFA about anything else.

seriously dude ? you didn't feel it was too early in the morning to be posting the craziness ? because what you said is simply not true. translations of the quran are everywhere, easily accessible:

http://quran.com/

when you say 'muslims believe' you are speaking for 1.5 billion people. i'm guessing they don't all think the translation they have in their hand is inaccurate. im guessing they don't all think the illustrations in it are literal. im guessing that the inventors of algebra would take offense at your suggestion they knew SFA.

anyway, what you say about their book can quite easily be said of all holy books. the bible was for the most part written in hebrew. do i need to learn that too ? if i did, do i also need to believe moses actually parted the red sea with his stick, or lazarus was raised from the dead ?

[whybother]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Here is a list of terrorist groups in the US. I'd like you to go up to one of these groups and tell them they are Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States

There are "Christians" in the US that are no better than most of the Muslim terrorists around the world.

[tomyummer]

Thanks to the good ol' U.S. of A. for crack heads like Jones. Burn the Koran within the safety of your walls of Big Daddy? He should try do it outside the U.S. to prove his point. Idiot. Makes Americans out to be the uneducated scum everyone thinks they are.

And for Bush, anyone see the documentary Loose Coins? Check it out. Very interesting about the theories of 9-11.

I think the journalist left out some of Bush's quote:

"On September 11, 2001, Americans awoke to evil on our shores," Bush said (he meant 'in The White House'). "On this solemn day of remembrance, Laura and I hold the victims and their families in our thoughts and prayers. We recall the many acts of heroism on that day, and we honor those who work tirelessly to prevent another attack. May God bless our great country and those who defend her."

"And may everyone continue to buy stock in Haliburton, Carlyle Group and Raytheon because our current president just shut the faucet on our defense spending and our defense companies, which my good ol' boss VP Cheney was a director of one, needs to continue to make me money in my retirement."

[whybother]

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

As with most (all??) religious books and religions, people pick and choose what they want out of it, or interpret certain sections/paragraphs/words how they want.

Along with that, there are so many contradictions within the books that it would be impossible to follow every word anyway.

Both the bible and the koran have very violent passages. The moderates around the world just choose to ignore those parts. The religious terrorists around the world choose not to.

[Richb2004v2]

God bless them! God! Wasn't it a belief in 'God' that was a major contributor to 9/11 in the first place?

[tomyummer]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Which would be one reason to burn the book of lies.

I might burn one now.....( not the book)

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

First a disclaimer: I'm not a Muslim, claim to be an authority of the Qur'an/Koran, hate Muslims (a little intimidated, maybe), nor endorse anything posted below. Whew.

Now, with a little magic of quick search and credit to http://infidelsarecool.com/2006/12/05/muhammads-own-words/ :

Qur’an:9:88 – “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”

Qur’an:9:5 - “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”

I didn't even get to the part about the 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys you're given by the Great One.

That just about does it for me!

Edited September 12, 2010 by tomyummer

[mmh8]

All Muslims are not terrorists.............but all terrorists are Muslims.

Which would be one reason to burn the book of lies.

I might burn one now.....( not the book)

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

First a disclaimer: I'm not a Muslim, claim to be an authority of the Qur'an/Koran, hate Muslims (a little intimidated, maybe), nor endorse anything posted below. Whew.

Now, with a little magic of quick search and credit to http://infidelsareco...mads-own-words/ :

Qur’an:9:88 – “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”

Qur’an:9:5 - “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”

I didn't even get to the part about the 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys you're given by the Great One.

That just about does it for me!

I think ignorance certifcates should be issued to some of the people posting on this forum, perhaps I could take a wild guess at your nationality

[doggie888888]

I wonder if the good Pastor knows that the Koran incorporates parts of the gospels, old testament and even the Torah? So burning the Koran means burning the gospels? What type of Christian would do that?

Similarly, some parts of the Koran have verses that say "thou shalt not kill" or words to that effect, just like the bible. I also believe that "respect of other religious faiths" is also spelt out in the Koran in one form or another. What type of Muslim would ignore these verses in their holy Koran?

It appears Islam does not have a monopoly on loonies, terrorists and ignorant bigots.

[Richb2004v2]

You really should read the whole Quran before commenting on it's merits or otherwise. Although a tedious book to read it is not a large book and can be read in less time than it take to read a John Grisham. One the one hand it is not good to cherry pick the bad parts, but on the other is it not acceptable to try to defend those bad parts when you also have not read it.

[OzMick]

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

To read the Koran you would have to learn Arabic, as Muslims believe that it is the literal word of god and any translation would be prone to error - a concept that only arose some 900 years after its writing. Problems arise in that Arabic words have a range of meanings defined by context. As the language has changed over the last 1400 years, some passages are unclear, and others convey to the modern reader a concept far removed from the original, or so scholars say.

It is believed to be a revelation to Mohammed, and inarguably correct, paradoxes included. It is truly a miracle that 1400 years ago (or 2000 if you follow the other mob) they got religion absolutely right when they knew close to SFA about anything else.

seriously dude ? you didn't feel it was too early in the morning to be posting the craziness ? because what you said is simply not true. translations of the quran are everywhere, easily accessible:

http://quran.com/

when you say 'muslims believe' you are speaking for 1.5 billion people. i'm guessing they don't all think the translation they have in their hand is inaccurate. im guessing they don't all think the illustrations in it are literal. im guessing that the inventors of algebra would take offense at your suggestion they knew SFA.

anyway, what you say about their book can quite easily be said of all holy books. the bible was for the most part written in hebrew. do i need to learn that too ? if i did, do i also need to believe moses actually parted the red sea with his stick, or lazarus was raised from the dead ?

I on the other hand don't take offense at other's ignorance. Please read the attached quote; it's only Wiki, but good enough for a fast reference:

"Translation of the Quran has always been a problematic and difficult issue in Islamic theology. Since Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text can not be reproduced in another language or form. Furthermore, an Arabic word may have a range of meanings depending on the context, making an accurate translation even more difficult.^[1]

According to modern Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in the Arabic language. Translations into other languages are necessarily the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original. Since these translations necessarily subtly change the meaning, they are often called "interpretations."^[3] For instance, Pickthall called his translation The Meaning of the Glorious Koran rather than simply The Koran."

And I stand by my statement that the erudite scholars of 1400 and 2000 years ago were relatively ignorant. A high school student today has more knowledge, and vastly more reference material. You state that in your belief part of the holy books are untrue, i believe that nearly all of it is crap.

[CDNinKS]

All Muslims are not terrorists..........but all terrorists are Muslims and IRA, ETA, Timothy Mcveigh, the Bader Meinhof gang, the Unabomber and etc, etc....

But only one out of that group scares me personally.....but that is just my opinion.

I have some very good friends who are Muslim, and nicer guys you will not find, but I hold them and every peace loving Muslim accountable for what is being perpetrated on the world by fanatics who use Islam/Allah to spread terror. The only thing that makes sense is that the peaceable ones are turning a blind eye to the terrorist acts. If you know that a criminal act is going to take place and you do nothing about it, then you are as guilty as the guy who pulls the trigger.

[Jingthing]

In the US, there are fundamentalist Christian terrorists. The most extreme fundamentalists of different religions have lots in common.

[Fookhaht]

I wonder if the good Pastor knows that the Koran incorporates parts of the gospels, old testament and even the Torah? So burning the Koran means burning the gospels? What type of Christian would do that?

I think what the pastor (and most knowledgeable non-Muslims) fear about the Muslim scriptures are the passages in the Koran which call for "the destruction of the infidels" of which there are many (as quoted in the above posts). The Koran openly advocates militant armed conflict and capital execution against non-Muslims. As a result of these written approvals of Jihaad in their holy scriptures, it's a fairly easy transition from non-radical to radical Islam for thousands of adherents world-wide.

OK, I can now hear the anti-religious bigots on TV, pointing fingers at Christianity. May I make a couple points about the anticipated arguments:

• While the Judaeo-Christian scriptures have similar passages in the Old Testament, the Christian scriptures of the New Testament negate those passages and take preeminence over them (such as Jesus' admonishment to "love your enemies.") There are many passages where Jesus says, "Moses said ______ to you, BUT I say that_____."
• A black mark on the history of Christianity, the Crusades against the Muslims during the middle ages, continue to be a terrible indictment against The Catholic Church and so-called Christians of the time, but certainly cannot be an indictment against their own Scriptures which they so blatantly violated and ignored in order to wreak havoc and murder across the Middle East and ancient Palestine.
• The "radical" fundamentalists among Christians is a far smaller number than the adherents of radical Islam across the globe. Remember, the Florida pastor's church numbers about 30. Big deal. It's a shame they're getting so much worldwide press (over the objections of millions of mainstream Christians!). It's a lot harder for the general Christian population to justify this guy's actions and abortionist assassinations by their scriptures than the radical Islamist's ability to wreak similar havoc using their own writings.

I don't agree with this Florida pastor's MO, but I at least feel I understand the fear behind the nutter-type actions, having read both the Koran and Christian scriptures.

The Koran and the other major holy writings: apples and oranges. Not the same.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Fookhaht

[Fookhaht]

Which would be one reason to burn the book of lies.

I might burn one now.....( not the book)

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

First a disclaimer: I'm not a Muslim, claim to be an authority of the Qur'an/Koran, hate Muslims (a little intimidated, maybe), nor endorse anything posted below. Whew.

Now, with a little magic of quick search and credit to http://infidelsareco...mads-own-words/ :

Qur'an:9:88 – "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."

Qur'an:9:5 - "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory."

I didn't even get to the part about the 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys you're given by the Great One.

That just about does it for me!

I think ignorance certifcates should be issued to some of the people posting on this forum, perhaps I could take a wild guess at your nationality

What does this poster's nationality have to do with the validity or non-validity of his post? Truth is truth, whether spoken by God or the Devil. Same with lies. You need to separate the discussion topic from your preconceived prejudices.

[orangezeke]

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

To read the Koran you would have to learn Arabic, as Muslims believe that it is the literal word of god and any translation would be prone to error - a concept that only arose some 900 years after its writing. Problems arise in that Arabic words have a range of meanings defined by context. As the language has changed over the last 1400 years, some passages are unclear, and others convey to the modern reader a concept far removed from the original, or so scholars say.

It is believed to be a revelation to Mohammed, and inarguably correct, paradoxes included. It is truly a miracle that 1400 years ago (or 2000 if you follow the other mob) they got religion absolutely right when they knew close to SFA about anything else.

seriously dude ? you didn't feel it was too early in the morning to be posting the craziness ? because what you said is simply not true. translations of the quran are everywhere, easily accessible:

http://quran.com/

when you say 'muslims believe' you are speaking for 1.5 billion people. i'm guessing they don't all think the translation they have in their hand is inaccurate. im guessing they don't all think the illustrations in it are literal. im guessing that the inventors of algebra would take offense at your suggestion they knew SFA.

anyway, what you say about their book can quite easily be said of all holy books. the bible was for the most part written in hebrew. do i need to learn that too ? if i did, do i also need to believe moses actually parted the red sea with his stick, or lazarus was raised from the dead ?

I on the other hand don't take offense at other's ignorance. Please read the attached quote; it's only Wiki, but good enough for a fast reference:

"Translation of the Quran has always been a problematic and difficult issue in Islamic theology. Since Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text can not be reproduced in another language or form. Furthermore, an Arabic word may have a range of meanings depending on the context, making an accurate translation even more difficult.^[1]

According to modern Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in the Arabic language. Translations into other languages are necessarily the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original. Since these translations necessarily subtly change the meaning, they are often called "interpretations."^[3] For instance, Pickthall called his translation The Meaning of the Glorious Koran rather than simply The Koran."

And I stand by my statement that the erudite scholars of 1400 and 2000 years ago were relatively ignorant. A high school student today has more knowledge, and vastly more reference material. You state that in your belief part of the holy books are untrue, i believe that nearly all of it is crap.

thanks. your second argument first. every “erudite scholars of 1400 and 2000 years ago were relatively ignorant”, no matter what their religion. it is a moot point and may be wholly ignored, but citing it in your original post the way you did, only served to cast bias.

which leads to your original point. (thanks for the reference btw, it was a good read) in answer to a question on the contents of the quran, you said “To read the Koran you would have to learn Arabic, as Muslims believe that it is the literal word of god and any translation would be prone to error”. this is not correct. you may read the quran in any number of languages. indonesia is the largest muslim population on the planet, how many do you think speak arabic ? by saying “Muslims believe” you disenfranchise the majority.

your wikipedia link is to a philosophical question that scholars debate. no one owns the quran. any comments by theologians should be seen for what they are, opinion. i will also point out, there is the same article on wikipedia held for the bible.

[Jingthing]

Quran, Schmuran. You don't have to read the Quran in English, Arabic, or Swahili to know it's not cool the burn it. Myself, I'd rather reread Portnoy's Complaint or watch Three's Company reruns than read any religious tome.

[manarak]

not Thailand related...

[Jingthing]

not Thailand related...

Actually it is as there are both Muslims and Americans IN Thailand (not to mention Muslim Americans).

Edited September 12, 2010 by Jingthing