Chiang Mai Immigration

[OriginalPoster]

From the Singh part of your name I assume your are from India or locale? Correct?

If so you really need to know that most Thais have a blatant hatred of ayone who comes from India (or those who look like they do). Subsequently you will probably get a harder time from any official than the vast majority of posters on this thread.

I beg to differ QED, but really I don't know any Thai who has a "blatant hatred" of Indian people. There has always been a minority of people from the Indian sub-continent in Thailand, dating back to ancient times. Along with Persians, Indonesian Muslims, Portuguese, Dutch, Chinese and many others. Some of the most influential families in Thailand, including the high aristocracy, trace their roots to Indians who were here many centuries ago. Thai religious practices, their architecture in ancient temples, alphabet and more have deep roots in Indian culture. Buddhism of course originated in the sub-continent.

BTW, I have friends in California who are white Anglo-Saxons who have converted to Sikhism. You can't assume anything about anyone's appearance based on their name.

"Blatant hatred" might be overstating it but overt prejudice against Indian people is the norm in Thailand. Ask a Thai why and you'll get answers such as "it's the smell". I've heard stuff like that even from highly educated Thais. If you doubt it, try taking a group of Thai people to an Indian restaurant and take notes on what they say about the food and the other people in the restaurant.

[realthaideal]

I'll give Singh the benefit of the doubt on two counts.... sort of. First is that I am wondering about his name 'Singh.' If you've named yourself Singh, then fine, that's cleverish (sort of)on your part - if your name is really Singh, I'm sure there could be some racism at times on the part of Thais towards you. Not fair, but I know it happens - I've heard the saying about the snake.

Second, I went to transfer my Visa n get a new work permit back in July and had two interesting things happen. There was a mistake on my paperwork and the guy in the first back room told me I had to get a date changed to the proper thing and would have to come back the next day... a day I just could not come back. It was already 3pm. I high-tailed it back to the office and got the new paper printed, signed and stamped and re-entered the office at 3:25 no appointment and without inquiring in the front, just opened the door to the inner workings place and humbled and waied and said excuse me in the most polite Thai I could. Guy was gracious - emotionless, but gracious nonetheless, and I had everything stamped - I counted 8 diff stamps engaged from the stamp lazy-susan on his desk. Impressive ! The processed documents were handed off to some very new-looking, young guys in the back area and I went to wait and sit with the big guy.

I got hardly a glance from him. I was unable to be charming or thankful, to say even a sawasdii or krapphom. THE GUY WAS ON HIS PHONE WITH HEADPHONES THE WHOLE TIME I WAS THERE ! I felt very insignificant and at his mercy, but acted cool and read the newspaper politely while waiting.After about 20 minutes I got a nod and a hand gesture to grab my papers. That was it. I krap phomed him and was done. On the way out I bothered to wai and thank the guy who let me come back n get my work done that day one extra time. Got a nice smile and nod for that - can't hurt for next year's visit !

So.... I can see that Singh's thing could have happened that way. But also, it could depend on how you play it. It is hard to not lose your cool here sometimes. The thing is, in that back room, with a guy who shows no interest in you, or at any point along the way, if you are snubbed, and you show your displeasure even thru body language, you can get yourself into a heap of a mess that maybe can't be wiggled back out of. Whether it really happened or not, I see this as the bigger point. Watch your body language as well as your dress and spoken language.

[mcgriffith]

Words of wisdom.

[tijnebijn]

Living here for 13+ years and always got what I needed or wanted from officials. Never any bad experiences with immigration officers, they are very cooperative when they know you have the right attitude towards a Thai. If you don't feel it, better leave, most newbies or twisted ego's don't pick up the subtle understanding of how to deal with a Thai. Be one of them and they will treat you alike (no need to become brainwashed for this) or refuse to adjust to the flow and become an underdog, know several dudes like that. Thais have a very sharp sense for attitudes and unspoken thoughts, and if you understand this you just, let's say 'get what you want', lol

well said .

[tijnebijn]

I'll give Singh the benefit of the doubt on two counts.... sort of. First is that I am wondering about his name 'Singh.' If you've named yourself Singh, then fine, that's cleverish (sort of)on your part - if your name is really Singh, I'm sure there could be some racism at times on the part of Thais towards you. Not fair, but I know it happens - I've heard the saying about the snake.

Second, I went to transfer my Visa n get a new work permit back in July and had two interesting things happen. There was a mistake on my paperwork and the guy in the first back room told me I had to get a date changed to the proper thing and would have to come back the next day... a day I just could not come back. It was already 3pm. I high-tailed it back to the office and got the new paper printed, signed and stamped and re-entered the office at 3:25 no appointment and without inquiring in the front, just opened the door to the inner workings place and humbled and waied and said excuse me in the most polite Thai I could. Guy was gracious - emotionless, but gracious nonetheless, and I had everything stamped - I counted 8 diff stamps engaged from the stamp lazy-susan on his desk. Impressive ! The processed documents were handed off to some very new-looking, young guys in the back area and I went to wait and sit with the big guy.

I got hardly a glance from him. I was unable to be charming or thankful, to say even a sawasdii or krapphom. THE GUY WAS ON HIS PHONE WITH HEADPHONES THE WHOLE TIME I WAS THERE ! I felt very insignificant and at his mercy, but acted cool and read the newspaper politely while waiting.After about 20 minutes I got a nod and a hand gesture to grab my papers. That was it. I krap phomed him and was done. On the way out I bothered to wai and thank the guy who let me come back n get my work done that day one extra time. Got a nice smile and nod for that - can't hurt for next year's visit !

So.... I can see that Singh's thing could have happened that way. But also, it could depend on how you play it. It is hard to not lose your cool here sometimes. The thing is, in that back room, with a guy who shows no interest in you, or at any point along the way, if you are snubbed, and you show your displeasure even thru body language, you can get yourself into a heap of a mess that maybe can't be wiggled back out of. Whether it really happened or not, I see this as the bigger point. Watch your body language as well as your dress and spoken language.

Or overly trying to be more Thai then a Thai .

I'm not accusing you with this at all , your post just reminds me of some thoughts

that come to me when I see some goodwilling but a bit silly looking farangs who try

for whatever reason to make those uninterested Thais who oversee its paperwork to show their

gratitude , in my opinion you should not do always ,sometimes it could , depending if they hold a conversation with you and look deep in your eyes I say , yes give them a wai of appreciation . When silly , the forcing the officer to wai back to you mode , does not make any favor , you become the silly farang , after application granted they might forget you ,

but when forcing them the wai before application granted they might feel the urge to ask

you silly questions about the silly farang .

not sure if anyone gets wiser from what I said , but it does work like that , at least

in my opinion ( in any handling with Thais ).

And by the way , although some thinking they can speak Thai well , it might be wiser to speak english , especially if they can speak English better than us who can speak Thai .

While waiting at imm , it gives me odd looks from the officers towards the foreigner who tries to explain himself in Thai , while even not understanding what he should do while spoken to him in pretty well spoken English by the officer , is mindblowing and entertaining , must say some officer especially at the counter many times do not know what to do either ....

But personally I never had any difficulties at Chiangmai imm , always easy going and just show up with the correct paperwork and done , its very well managed .

Edited September 17, 2010 by tijnebijn

[Thakkar]

From the Singh part of your name I assume your are from India or locale? Correct?

If so you really need to know that most Thais have a blatant hatred of ayone who comes from India (or those who look like they do). Subsequently you will probably get a harder time from any official than the vast majority of posters on this thread.

I beg to differ QED, but really I don't know any Thai who has a "blatant hatred" of Indian people. There has always been a minority of people from the Indian sub-continent in Thailand, dating back to ancient times. Along with Persians, Indonesian Muslims, Portuguese, Dutch, Chinese and many others. Some of the most influential families in Thailand, including the high aristocracy, trace their roots to Indians who were here many centuries ago. Thai religious practices, their architecture in ancient temples, alphabet and more have deep roots in Indian culture. Buddhism of course originated in the sub-continent.

BTW, I have friends in California who are white Anglo-Saxons who have converted to Sikhism. You can't assume anything about anyone's appearance based on their name.

"Blatant hatred" might be overstating it but overt prejudice against Indian people is the norm in Thailand. Ask a Thai why and you'll get answers such as "it's the smell". I've heard stuff like that even from highly educated Thais. If you doubt it, try taking a group of Thai people to an Indian restaurant and take notes on what they say about the food and the other people in the restaurant.

Growing up outside India and facing my share of bigotry, I've developed a pretty good radar honed to detect the subtlest racist cues. So I guess these anti-Indian Thai bigots need to work a lot harder at being overt because I haven't noticed any more than the usual amount of bigotry one tends to see anywhere. And in all my years of coming here and living here, the racism I've noticed has never, ever been overt.

Asians, particularly Thai's, are adept at telling you what you want to hear. It's not dishonesty, it's just a way to be hospitable.

[Jingthing]

Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ...

[ChiangMaiFun]

Welcome to Thailand... but you willl get nowhere shouting at them and Immigration is the one place you do not want to upset.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ...

That's priceless. Whether such an incident is racist is definitely up for debate, however the above sweeping statement itself hits far closer to the mark!

Not to mention a derogatory comments directed towards all Thais.

[PingandSingh]

to chiangmaifun and the others,

Ok, for the very last time:

I NEVER ever shouted at him. I behave always very well but when they start intimidate and attack my dignity I will NOT fall on my knees, like most people on this board will do. Never, not for a restaurant waiter, not for a minister and especially not for a policeman. I will NOT fall on my knees and accept those things.

They were confronted with their own mistakes , in a calm and civilized way. The second in line then SHOUTED at ME that he was my BOSS and I had to listen to him. I have heard it twice: he was my BOSS and I could say NOTHING. I stand up and told him I would go to the superintendent. He then SHOUTED to my wife who was waiting at the other side of the room. When I got out of the building I still heard him shouting. I, from my side, did not say 1 loud word, just ask him if I could explain and inform. I was NOT allowed to do that.

If that is the way they look down on me and show such a disrespect when confronted with their own mistakes; let it be so. I leave asap, I don't like (accept) it.

BTW; this is not a standalone case. I see it every day and everywhere in Thailand. My wife says it is the way they are raised up and taught by the Buddhist; Never admit you did something wrong and put the blame always to the other(s). You hear "sorry" a lot? You will NOT hear it often as they, in their minds, cannot make any mistakes. It is always our mistake. If you hear "sorry" occasionally, beware,  they want something from you with a big fake smile.

Look around and open your eyes a  bit. I see tons of this behavior. Look how they behave to Burmese, Cambodians and yes yes yes Indians. I witnessed a few things in person from Thai to the nationalities mentioned before; it left me throwing up. Most Thais rank those people very very low. Animals comes to my mind but that's maybe too far. I spoke once to a head of a moobahn. He told me that I had to understand how Thai culture works. He told me this: first you have your (grand)parents and you have to respect and do anything for them. Second you have your brothers, sisters and the rest of the family, very close friends and you have to show respect but less than (grand)parents-respect. Third you have the monk, teacher, pujabhan, government people, and still show respect but less. Fourth you have the other friends, relatives and a bit of respect is already OK. Fifth comes all the rest and you have to show them NO respect at all. This was about 7 years ago while on vacation in Chiang Rai.

"See things like they are and not like you wish they would be". This is just a saying, it is not an advice or comment otherwise the whole board will jump on me again.

Goodluck.

[ChiangMaiFun]

to chiangmaifun and the others,

Ok, for the very last time:

I NEVER ever shouted at him. I behave always very well but when they start intimidate and attack my dignity I will NOT fall on my knees, like most people on this board will do. Never, not for a restaurant waiter, not for a minister and especially not for a policeman. I will NOT fall on my knees and accept those things.

They were confronted with their own mistakes , in a calm and civilized way. The second in line then SHOUTED at ME that he was my BOSS and I had to listen to him. I have heard it twice: he was my BOSS and I could say NOTHING. I stand up and told him I would go to the superintendent. He then SHOUTED to my wife who was waiting at the other side of the room. When I got out of the building I still heard him shouting. I, from my side, did not say 1 loud word, just ask him if I could explain and inform. I was NOT allowed to do that.

If that is the way they look down on me and show such a disrespect when confronted with their own mistakes; let it be so. I leave asap, I don't like (accept) it.

BTW; this is not a standalone case. I see it every day and everywhere in Thailand. My wife says it is the way they are raised up and taught by the Buddhist; Never admit you did something wrong and put the blame always to the other(s). You hear "sorry" a lot? You will NOT hear it often as they, in their minds, cannot make any mistakes. It is always our mistake. If you hear "sorry" occasionally, beware, they want something from you with a big fake smile.

Look around and open your eyes a bit. I see tons of this behavior. Look how they behave to Burmese, Cambodians and yes yes yes Indians. I witnessed a few things in person from Thai to the nationalities mentioned before; it left me throwing up. Most Thais rank those people very very low. Animals comes to my mind but that's maybe too far. I spoke once to a head of a moobahn. He told me that I had to understand how Thai culture works. He told me this: first you have your (grand)parents and you have to respect and do anything for them. Second you have your brothers, sisters and the rest of the family, very close friends and you have to show respect but less than (grand)parents-respect. Third you have the monk, teacher, pujabhan, government people, and still show respect but less. Fourth you have the other friends, relatives and a bit of respect is already OK. Fifth comes all the rest and you have to show them NO respect at all. This was about 7 years ago while on vacation in Chiang Rai.

"See things like they are and not like you wish they would be". This is just a saying, it is not an advice or comment otherwise the whole board will jump on me again.

Goodluck.

I wasn't suggesting YOU shouted at them - just commenting in general - if you notice my other post I was defending you against the negative comments on here. I do believe, however, that to live successfully here you do have to adapt - if you can't do that (and I find it difficult many times) it's time to move on.

[sarahsbloke]

Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ...

They say that about the French as well, must be all the curry and garlic

[Naam]

"In recent years, 2 times a lady askedme for some tea money which I refused. That might also be a factor on how theyhandle my case. I have friends, and every time they go there, they put 500 Bathin the passport. They say they never have problems but I refuse to play thosegames."

right you are! why spending the fortune of 500 Baht on dirty games to make life just a wee bit easier? rather use the money for an add-on to your house, buy a few rai of rice fields or hang a couple of heavy gold chains around your wife's neck.

[NancyL]

If dressing neatly, speaking politely, waiting your turn, being prepared for a meeting, being kind to everyone including those who are providing you with a service, etc, etc, is groveling or selling out, then I guess I'm guilty as charged by the OP. I've found that most people respond favorably. In life, it seems that you're treated the way to expect to be treated and what you give is what you get. Also, I've found that people who DEMAND respect are usually those least likely to be deserving of respect. There's a saying in America (I don't know about the rest of the world) about someone "acting like they have a chip on their shoulder". The OP seems to have gone into Immigration with a obvious chip, just waiting for someone to knock it off.

[Jingthing]

Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ...

They say that about the French as well, must be all the curry and garlic

No they don't.

[Jingthing]

Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ...

That's priceless. Whether such an incident is racist is definitely up for debate, however the above sweeping statement itself hits far closer to the mark!

Not to mention a derogatory comments directed towards all Thais.

Of course it's racism, there is nothing to debate. Also, please don't get your disingenuous knickers in a twist with overblown twisted accusations. What about the word TYPICAL don't you understand? Not ALL, typical.

Next ...

Edited September 19, 2010 by Jingthing

[macsurf]

Jingthing : "Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ..."

I've seen Thai people squeeze their nose and say SMELL BAD to OTHER THAIS (Muslim Thais at the airport), they do it to WHOEVER has body odour, that aint racism and frankly I think it's better for everyone that they are indicated as having bad personal hygiene. Next...

[macsurf]

Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ...

They say that about the French as well, must be all the curry and garlic

No they don't.

Yes they do, and yes some of them do. Next...

[Jingthing]

Jingthing : "Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ..."

I've seen Thai people squeeze their nose and say SMELL BAD to OTHER THAIS (Muslim Thais at the airport), they do it to WHOEVER has body odour, that aint racism and frankly I think it's better for everyone that they are indicated as having bad personal hygiene. Next...

You are not getting the point. Is that intentional? I was clearly talking about typical reactions to even the WORD Indian. Not to specific smelly people of any race or nationality. Do you get the difference? Reactions to individuals are specific to an individual. Reactions to entire nationalities/races, negatively stereotyping is indeed racism. It's simple really.

Next ...

[macsurf]

Jingthing : "Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ..."

I've seen Thai people squeeze their nose and say SMELL BAD to OTHER THAIS (Muslim Thais at the airport), they do it to WHOEVER has body odour, that aint racism and frankly I think it's better for everyone that they are indicated as having bad personal hygiene. Next...

You are not getting the point. Is that intentional? I was clearly talking about typical reactions to even the WORD Indian. Not to specific smelly people of any race or nationality. Do you get the difference? Reactions to individuals are specific to an individual. Reactions to entire nationalities/races, negatively stereotyping is indeed racism. It's simple really.

Next ...

Yea I get it, Still I'd say it's more just a matter of bad manners / rudeness than racism. So Thais associate Indians with body odor, why do you think that might be?

Saying it in public is bad manners not racist. Racist would be not letting someone access or participate in something that is supposed to be available to all people regardless

of race. Claiming all Indians have body odor when not all of them do is just ignorant and rude not racist. It's simple really.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing : "Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ..."

I've seen Thai people squeeze their nose and say SMELL BAD to OTHER THAIS (Muslim Thais at the airport), they do it to WHOEVER has body odour, that aint racism and frankly I think it's better for everyone that they are indicated as having bad personal hygiene. Next...

You are not getting the point. Is that intentional? I was clearly talking about typical reactions to even the WORD Indian. Not to specific smelly people of any race or nationality. Do you get the difference? Reactions to individuals are specific to an individual. Reactions to entire nationalities/races, negatively stereotyping is indeed racism. It's simple really.

Next ...

Yea I get it, Still I'd say it's more just a matter of bad manners / rudeness than racism. So Thais associate Indians with body odor, why do you think that might be?

Saying it in public is bad manners not racist. Racist would be not letting someone access or participate in something that is supposed to be available to all people regardless

of race. Claiming all Indians have body odor when not all of them do is just ignorant and rude not racist. It's simple really.

My understanding is that Indians are indeed BANNED from living in certain buildings in Thailand as a matter of policy. Is that racist enough for you? I don't get this denial. Do you think Thais are saints or something? There is just as much (probably more) racism from Thais and some of it is VERY OVERT, as other countries. Let's not put our heads in the sand, OK?

Edited September 19, 2010 by Jingthing

[Thakkar]

Huh? You don't consider the rather typical Thai response to word Indian with the response SMELL BAD (often with a nose squeezing gesture) to be overt racism. OK, then, that's settled.

Next ...

I can only speak to what I've seen. The typical things you as a white person (I'm presuming here) might see may not be the typical things that I as an Indian see. If I were to somehow indicate to a group of Thai's that I don't like whites, then, to me, they'd likely display a disdain towards whites. And as long as they were confident I agreed with them, that display would be overt. I've actually tried this, and my guess is that these same people, under different circumstances (when no Indian is about) would display anti-Indian behaviour.

Of course there is plenty of racism in Thailand. And while my experiences of it are necessarily constrained by my Indianess, as far as I can tell, Thai racism for the most part is low level and an equal opportunity racism.

Things will change for the better as Thailand becomes less insular. I'm confident of that because I've watched things change (slowly, alas) in (what was) much more racist HK.