Chiang Mai Immigration

[PingandSingh]

Got irritated back from Chiang Mai immigration.

This year January, I went to extend my Non Im visa for 1year. My passport expires in November. They gave me a visa until the passportexpires in November and did the same for my new multiple entrees stamp. Thelady told me, upon getting my new passport; they would transfer the visa fromthe old to the new one so the visa would expire in January 2011. She said it isfree. I asked her if the same would apply for my multiple entree and sheconfirmed that both, the visa and the multiple entree would be valid untilJanuary 2011.

I went with my new passport and the man, handling mycase, told me the multiple will expire in November. I said to him what he lady inJanuary explained but he did not wanted to listen. Finally I ended up with anarrogant young man; the second in power and assistant to the superintendent orsomething like that. He was reading while listen to something in his headset.Interest in me and my case was far away. I tried to explain what the lady saidin January but it came in deaf ears. The lady assisting him did do nothing as, Iguess, she was lower ranked. He did not wanted to listen and stated every timethat my multiple would expire in November and not in January. I told him it wasa bit unfair when f.e. one buys a multiple with a passport expiring one monthlater; his multiple will expire after one month and one has to buy a new one. Strange.The man was not listening to anything I wanted to say. Not for one second. Becominga bit nervous, I told him: "can I say nothing? Do you not want to listento me"? He got very angry and said loud and clear so that all the peoplecould hear: "I am your boss. You can say nothing at all and you have tolisten to me only. I don't have to listen to you because I am your boss"!That was enough to me and I stand up telling him I would go to thesuperintendent. He shouted to my wife, while she was at the other side of theroom: "if your husband wants to stay in Thailand he has to listen tome". My wife got very upset as well and we went for the superintendent inthe other building. He understood, and was quite a nice helping man, incontrary from his arrogant assistant. He also said he could not believe hisstaff would do such a thing.... My wife replied, "It just happened 5minutes ago". 

I feel no good after this and I know that this man can domany things. It was a big intimidation to me and I feel I not have to acceptthis, even and sure not from a policeman. In recent years, 2 times a lady askedme for some tea money which I refused. That might also be a factor on how theyhandle my case. I have friends, and every time they go there, they put 500 Bathin the passport. They say they never have problems but I refuse to play thosegames.

I am thinking of writing a letter to my Embassy but thatmight not be a good move. Move away could be better and I start thinking ofthat very seriously. The last months, a few bad and unexpected things came tome and some from Thais, more and more losing the pedals.   

[uptheos]

First, calls to prayer and now immigration.

Do you really think Thailand is for you?

[Jingthing]

My very first visit to Thai immigration I was put through the ringers (for no good reason). They were trying to give me the message that the I am your boss guy said to you clearly. They are your boss. They DO control whether you stay or leave. The rules are elastic, if they want YOU gone, you WILL be gone. We must kowtow to them, there is really no choice if you hope to stay here long term. It is not a matter of fair, it is a matter of that's the way it is (if you wish to stay). I don't see the big deal with your case at all. Just a lesson to others, do not purchase a multi-entry if you will be changing passports during the term, thanks for the tip!

[onnut]

Ok Mr Patal,

if this is not a Troll post.

non of my friends put money in there passports! why would they?

all you have to do is be calm and stay polite with a smile and you will not have a problem.

but why would you believe the first lady in the first place, surely you could of worked out the fact that you would have to re-new the visa if she only stamped it to a certain date!

[NancyL]

Hubby and I have never had any problems with CM immigration office. We always go in well-dressed, well-groomed and bring reading material to fill the wait time. We're polite and try to have our documents in order, with all the copies, before we approach the desk. That lady in the copy shop behind Immigration is a god-send for knowing exactly what needs to be copied. We've never put money in our passport, nor have any of our friends said they've done this. In fact, we've had Immigration officials hand back money when it was mixed in with the paperwork by accident.

After completeing our business, I always sit down, breathe deeply and double check the stamps, etc I just got to make sure they're what I expected. Then I note the dates for future action (like the next visa extension or 90 day report) on my calendar. This quiet time of reflection is how I found a major error in my address on a recent certificate of residency. Much better to clear up any potential problems before you leave the office. They fixed it promptly. I probably would have had to pay for a new certificate of residency if I returned a week later.

I think the fact that the visa and multiple re-entry clearly showed an expiration date of November should have been a tip-off that there was going to be a problem. I would have gotten something in writing about them actually being valid until January 2011, despite the stamp of November 2010.

We're a guest in this country and yes, that rude gentleman at Immigration can intimidate you. He can do worse than that.

[Thakkar]

I can sympathise with the immigration officer. Sometimes when I see a bad passport photo, it just gets my goat.

[Jingthing]

Don't get my wrong. I am on side of the applicants, not the police. However, I do strongly feel it is in our best interests to play along with our lowly role in these encounters. Speak very softly, cower when shouted at, act like an abused dog, and things will go very well indeed!

Edited September 16, 2010 by Jingthing

[mcgriffith]

I can empathize with the OP; getting things handled at Immigration can be very stressful for all parties.

I'm going in next week, and to be honest, I am not skipping with joy or looking forward to this necessary yearly duty.

Got all my docs and copies all ready, photos, etc. And I have never had a problem at CM Imm getting what I needed done, knock on wood.

The one key thing I would like to emphasise to all members reading this post is:

Never lose your cool. No matter how frustrating you may find some temporary impasse...best MO is to simply smile. Like a Thai would do.

These officers deal with huge unruly crowds of farang, many of whom have little or no idea of the required documents...or even whether they are legally entitled to apply for what they are (unsuccessfully) trying to apply for.

OP, I am not saying you are in this above witless category. I am certain that you were misinformed by the original lady re: your original re-entry permit in your expiring passport. Visa and extensions are handled by one section in Imm, re-entry permits by another section. Don't listen to a visa/extension person again about a re-entry permit. Go see the re-entry permit people for that.

By the way...you did save that old passport, in which the original re-entry permit was? Or if surrendered to your home country which required you to submit your old passport when you did the passport renewal- you did of course copy all the relevant pages before turning it back in?

And have copies of all these previously issued Thai visas and extensions and permits, when you went in to CM Imm recently?

Just wondering.

[sarahsbloke]

Married person VISA

ChiangMai have little influence on this as it is granted by people in Bangkok

ChiangMai immigration only get to fill in the forms, and if they play silly buggers, BKK kicks their arse.

[bangkokcitylimits]

Living here for 13+ years and always got what I needed or wanted from officials. Never any bad experiences with immigration officers, they are very cooperative when they know you have the right attitude towards a Thai. If you don't feel it, better leave, most newbies or twisted ego's don't pick up the subtle understanding of how to deal with a Thai. Be one of them and they will treat you alike (no need to become brainwashed for this) or refuse to adjust to the flow and become an underdog, know several dudes like that. Thais have a very sharp sense for attitudes and unspoken thoughts, and if you understand this you just, let's say 'get what you want', lol

Edited September 16, 2010 by bangkokcitylimits

[Mapguy]

I have no sympathy for the OP. He does not make any sense. This is the second post that he/she has made that truly leads "off the wall." I do not trust what he has to say. This is not a person to reason with, in my view! Perhaps OP is someone who is playing silly games. What is that called? A troll? Whatever, please go away! OP said he/she wants to complain to his embassy. Okay. Do it, OP! Please! Better, go home, wherever that is! Perhaps you will be happier! But I doubt it! For that, I feel sorry for you.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Mapguy

[mania]

Sorry to hear that it was so nerve racking

I dont know why when I read it the soup nazi came to mind on Jerry Seinfeld

In hinds sight I know it stinks but 500 baht is 16 bucks and does not sound too bad if you get soup quickly

Edited September 17, 2010 by mania

[personchester]

First, calls to prayer and now immigration.

Do you really think Thailand is for you?

In order to avoid the problems as outlined in your posting, note the following -

For the annual retirement visa renewal (not the 90 days) use the presents of your wife (or Thai GF) in an effective manner, that is to say she takes a leading role in the application (chat-wise) you should dress as a gentleman, (even if that is strange to you) carry your papers (application file) in a business like manner and present it to the officer at his desk, be friendly and polite, but do not smile excessively since that is not our culture, and they know that.

Your wife should sit on the chair next to you in front of the desk, and whilst the officer goes through your application he talks to the Thai wife (in Thai) to clarify any questions he might have, in addition they also chat in Thai about other (general) things, and the Thai smiling takes place, during this time you will sit there chiefly silent, but in a business like manner and a gentleman like appearance, (and not like a dog as was suggested elsewhere)

Finally, as you enter the back room for the "stamp" again take your wife with you and wait together until your turn comes, and when the senior officer calls your name, your wife should walk with you to the desk to collect your passport, and then you both thank the officer for the granting,

Any problems that may arise let your Thai wife do the talking, that prevents many aggravations.

[jayjay0]

When I Renewed my retirement visa last year I was 6 days late they charged me 3,000 Baht fair enough. I was supposed to do it on the 30 0f September and did it on the 7 of October. When he stamped my new visa it was for September 30 I pointed out to him that I had paid up to October 7 He said it did not matter so I accepted his ruling rather that cause trouble. I was then directed to the back room where there were two other officers and no one else. The first agent I had dealt with came in and dropped a bunch of papers on one of the desks. That particular officer had just left the room. He came back ten minutes later and proceeded to go over the passport shaking his head and then hitting it with a stamp. At one point he went into the other room and came back with the first officer they talked a bit and the first officer left. The second officer looked at my book wrote something on it and stamped it. I was sitting on the side just watching when he waved his hand for me to come over. He pointed to where the first officer had written September 30 and where he had crossed it out and wrote in October 7 he gave me my Passport back I thanked him and left. I never once got belligerent or pushy I simply accepted the first officers explanation and went with the flow.

I still get nervous when I have to renew it or the 90 day check in.

[garyk]

I just got my Retirement Visa re-done there.

I look like a bum. My hair is down to my sholders and haven't shaved in several days. My clothes were old and faded. I am retired why should I care what I wear or look like for that matter.

I personally don't care if i go or stay. All I have here is a pickup and motorcycle that would have to be sold.

Anyway- No problems at all. Produced paperwork with income statement and paperwork. I never said a word. The guy said i needed copies of a couple of documents and waited for me until i got back from the copy shop behind the place. I thought i would tip the guy. And he refused giving my money to another woman and my change was stapled to my reciept. dam_n different than it used to be. I used to bribe everyone now I cannot give a bribe. Oh well that is my story.

P.S. I have travled all over Thailand and in my experence Chiang Mai is the best office for this kind of thing. I don't know about now but years past. I always had problems with people in immigration. But never in Chiang Mai.

Edited September 17, 2010 by garyk

[kennalder]

We've never put money in our passport, nor have any of our friends said they've done this. In fact, we've had Immigration officials hand back money when it was mixed in with the paperwork by accident.

Oh yeah, I do that all the time. Accidentally putting money in with everything.

Just this morning I gave a soi dog 200 baht, instead of dog food. Was he surprised!

Then I tried to pay the rent with toilet paper. Landlady would have nothing of it.

I guess I will get a bigger wallet, keep it all in one place, just like the poor people.

Edited September 19, 2010 by mcgriffith
lese majeste comment deleted

[LJW]

He will be gone within 2 years

[PingandSingh]

To all,

Thanks for the comments.

We preparing to leave and not in 2 years but asap.

Yes, I understand you all and there is a tendency with most of you of being quiet, listen to what they say, agree with everything (also when they wrong) and even (as I understand to get some soup) pay them. Well, all those things I don't like to do and will not do. I am a human being and not a dog and have a few degrees an a pilot license. I do not like that people, whomever it is, use me as a doormat to clean their dirty shoes. If I think they are wrong, I will tell them and ask to explain. If they are wrong for sure , I need a good explanation. I have my dignity and want to keep it. I not have to say "thanks" to anyone, however, I think a lot of the posters here have to do.

Yes, I am well dressed and good prepared every time I go and yes, my wife goes with me. She comes to the point now that she want to leave asap as she is tired of this Thai behavior. I mean, they never take any responsibility and all have their own interpretation of a rule so they can escape without a sorry. They will never make a mistake in their eyes, even when there is prove.  I can image that, if you accept anything and sit there like the lost buffalo and let play them the God, everything will go smooth and fine.  I agree with that for 100%. I had to pay already for their mistakes (wrong stamp at arrival, cost 7.000Bath overstay). Yes, I called my Embassy already when they told me a free document would cost me 800 Baht. Their explanation was they had to contact my Embassy to get my official address. My Embassy told me this was just nonsense to get some tea money. Advice from my Embassy "not pay them".  If you all accept those things..... good for them. I have my dignity and if I read your replies well; a lot of you lost that value already. Let it be so, not all people are the same.

For me, it is time to move on. Good luck to all of you.

[bangkokcitylimits]

We've never put money in our passport, nor have any of our friends said they've done this. In fact, we've had Immigration officials hand back money when it was mixed in with the paperwork by accident.

Oh yeah, I do that all the time. Accidentally putting money in with everything.

I have lots of good books, and you can always call me to borrow them, no problem

[jdinasia]

The OP is not dealing with the same Chiang Mai Immigration people that I have dealt with (or that anyone I know has dealt with) and that is certain. While dealing with the massive amount of paperwork required for a company that has never before obtained a one year extension for an employee was time consuming and aggravating (to me) it really wasn't an ordeal. Government officials anywhere can be a pain in the arse to deal with but I have never seen one in Chiang Mai lose their cool. I have seen them politely ask a guy wearing a tank-top/vest and dirty shorts to leave and come back dressed politely. He got beligerent but they just smiled and a girl came from the back to open the door for him and she held it until he left. Never once was there a show of authoritarianism or anger by the Imm. officials.

I agree with several other posters that the threads by the OP just don't make any real sense in light of the experience of others in CNX.

BTW ---- the only Imm office hat I have ever been in that is as good as the one in Chiang Mai is the one in Samut Prakhan.

[november222]

To all,

Thanks for the comments.

We preparing to leave and not in 2 years but asap.

Yes, I understand you all and there is a tendency with most of you of being quiet, listen to what they say, agree with everything (also when they wrong) and even (as I understand to get some soup) pay them. Well, all those things I don't like to do and will not do. I am a human being and not a dog and have a few degrees an a pilot license. I do not like that people, whomever it is, use me as a doormat to clean their dirty shoes. If I think they are wrong, I will tell them and ask to explain. If they are wrong for sure , I need a good explanation. I have my dignity and want to keep it. I not have to say "thanks" to anyone, however, I think a lot of the posters here have to do.

Yes, I am well dressed and good prepared every time I go and yes, my wife goes with me. She comes to the point now that she want to leave asap as she is tired of this Thai behavior. I mean, they never take any responsibility and all have their own interpretation of a rule so they can escape without a sorry. They will never make a mistake in their eyes, even when there is prove. I can image that, if you accept anything and sit there like the lost buffalo and let play them the God, everything will go smooth and fine. I agree with that for 100%. I had to pay already for their mistakes (wrong stamp at arrival, cost 7.000Bath overstay). Yes, I called my Embassy already when they told me a free document would cost me 800 Baht. Their explanation was they had to contact my Embassy to get my official address. My Embassy told me this was just nonsense to get some tea money. Advice from my Embassy "not pay them". If you all accept those things..... good for them. I have my dignity and if I read your replies well; a lot of you lost that value already. Let it be so, not all people are the same.

For me, it is time to move on. Good luck to all of you.

Nice one. Good luck.

[Tywais]

I agree with several other posters that the threads by the OP just don't make any real sense in light of the experience of others in CNX.

As do I. I've been getting annual extensions based on work for 18 years now and probably been to CM immigration 25+ times not including 90 day reports and never experienced or heard of any improprieties by others. A couple of times when there was a problem with my university documents, they guided me through the issue professionally and politely.

This includes one time where it was the last day and a document the university missed and the officer could see I was a bit stressed (not angry, just anxious as to what was going to happen). A senior officer, younger male, came over to see what was wrong. He told them to give me a 10 day extension so I can get the last document. He smiled at me and said "don't worry, you're legal now". Never once have I seen an officer lose control or raise their voice and I've seen instances with some foreigners I wanted to slap them upside the head myself.

Yes, even after all these years it is a stressful event for me but always worked out.

[jdinasia]

I agree with several other posters that the threads by the OP just don't make any real sense in light of the experience of others in CNX.

As do I. I've been getting annual extensions based on work for 18 years now and probably been to CM immigration 25+ times not including 90 day reports and never experienced or heard of any improprieties by others. A couple of times when there was a problem with my university documents, they guided me through the issue professionally and politely.

This includes one time where it was the last day and a document the university missed and the officer could see I was a bit stressed (not angry, just anxious as to what was going to happen). A senior officer, younger male, came over to see what was wrong. He told them to give me a 10 day extension so I can get the last document. He smiled at me and said "don't worry, you're legal now". Never once have I seen an officer lose control or raise their voice and I've seen instances with some foreigners I wanted to slap them upside the head myself.

Yes, even after all these years it is a stressful event for me but always worked out.

Can you confirm or deny that other company staff can do your 90 day reporting (I was told yes they could) if they bring your passport and paperwork? So far I have done this on my own but the MD thinks that it should be one of my staff handling this.

[sarahsbloke]

I have my dignity and if I read your replies well; a lot of you lost that value already. Let it be so, not all people are the same.

For me, it is time to move on. Good luck to all of you.

I didn't lose my dignity, I traded it for a great shag at a bargain price ............... good deal IMHO.

Edited September 17, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Mario2008]

Can you confirm or deny that other company staff can do your 90 day reporting (I was told yes they could) if they bring your passport and paperwork? So far I have done this on my own but the MD thinks that it should be one of my staff handling this.

Yes, the 90 day report can be done in person, by mail or by a third party. Sending one of your staff with all documents will be fine.

[jdinasia]

Can you confirm or deny that other company staff can do your 90 day reporting (I was told yes they could) if they bring your passport and paperwork? So far I have done this on my own but the MD thinks that it should be one of my staff handling this.

Yes, the 90 day report can be done in person, by mail or by a third party. Sending one of your staff with all documents will be fine.

Thanks, I knew that to be the case in BKK (where I never once did my own reporting) but was not 100% sure about in CNX

[QED]

To all,

Thanks for the comments.

We preparing to leave and not in 2 years but asap.

Yes, I understand you all and there is a tendency with most of you of being quiet, listen to what they say, agree with everything (also when they wrong) and even (as I understand to get some soup) pay them. Well, all those things I don't like to do and will not do. I am a human being and not a dog and have a few degrees an a pilot license. I do not like that people, whomever it is, use me as a doormat to clean their dirty shoes. If I think they are wrong, I will tell them and ask to explain. If they are wrong for sure , I need a good explanation. I have my dignity and want to keep it. I not have to say "thanks" to anyone, however, I think a lot of the posters here have to do.

Yes, I am well dressed and good prepared every time I go and yes, my wife goes with me. She comes to the point now that she want to leave asap as she is tired of this Thai behavior. I mean, they never take any responsibility and all have their own interpretation of a rule so they can escape without a sorry. They will never make a mistake in their eyes, even when there is prove. I can image that, if you accept anything and sit there like the lost buffalo and let play them the God, everything will go smooth and fine. I agree with that for 100%. I had to pay already for their mistakes (wrong stamp at arrival, cost 7.000Bath overstay). Yes, I called my Embassy already when they told me a free document would cost me 800 Baht. Their explanation was they had to contact my Embassy to get my official address. My Embassy told me this was just nonsense to get some tea money. Advice from my Embassy "not pay them". If you all accept those things..... good for them. I have my dignity and if I read your replies well; a lot of you lost that value already. Let it be so, not all people are the same.

For me, it is time to move on. Good luck to all of you.

OK, how can I say this without getting into trouble.......

From the Singh part of your name I assume your are from India or locale? Correct?

If so you really need to know that most Thais have a blatant hatred of ayone who comes from India (or those who look like they do). Subsequently you will probably get a harder time from any official than the vast majority of posters on this thread. To then lose your cool with them is like throwing a gallon of gas on your flower pot barbeque - really unnecessary and not beneficial to anyone.

You say you are leaving, and with a strong will such as yours I think that is probably a good thing, as sooner or later you will end up getting in trouble here, and potentially hurt, or worse.

Good luck wherever you end up.

[personchester]

To all,

Thanks for the comments.

We preparing to leave and not in 2 years but asap.

Yes, I understand you all and there is a tendency with most of you of being quiet, listen to what they say, agree with everything (also when they wrong) and even (as I understand to get some soup) pay them. Well, all those things I don't like to do and will not do. I am a human being and not a dog and have a few degrees an a pilot license. I do not like that people, whomever it is, use me as a doormat to clean their dirty shoes. If I think they are wrong, I will tell them and ask to explain. If they are wrong for sure , I need a good explanation. I have my dignity and want to keep it. I not have to say "thanks" to anyone, however, I think a lot of the posters here have to do.

Yes, I am well dressed and good prepared every time I go and yes, my wife goes with me. She comes to the point now that she want to leave asap as she is tired of this Thai behavior. I mean, they never take any responsibility and all have their own interpretation of a rule so they can escape without a sorry. They will never make a mistake in their eyes, even when there is prove. I can image that, if you accept anything and sit there like the lost buffalo and let play them the God, everything will go smooth and fine. I agree with that for 100%. I had to pay already for their mistakes (wrong stamp at arrival, cost 7.000Bath overstay). Yes, I called my Embassy already when they told me a free document would cost me 800 Baht. Their explanation was they had to contact my Embassy to get my official address. My Embassy told me this was just nonsense to get some tea money. Advice from my Embassy "not pay them". If you all accept those things..... good for them. I have my dignity and if I read your replies well; a lot of you lost that value already. Let it be so, not all people are the same.

For me, it is time to move on. Good luck to all of you.

Of course, being humiliated affects one's dignity and one has to respond accordingly, no doubt about that.

However, your problem would not have happened had you used your wife as your "Visa application agent" let the two Thais discuss - and resolve - the problem, you just stay/sit there in a dignified manner and respond to your wife's questions which she in turn will pass on to the desk officer, in other words, ensure that your comportment is indicative of the fact that you are well above all this, thus let them sort it out (query wise) at the end the result will be positive and no one will be upset.

[mcgriffith]

From the Singh part of your name I assume your are from India or locale? Correct?

If so you really need to know that most Thais have a blatant hatred of ayone who comes from India (or those who look like they do). Subsequently you will probably get a harder time from any official than the vast majority of posters on this thread.

I beg to differ QED, but really I don't know any Thai who has a "blatant hatred" of Indian people. There has always been a minority of people from the Indian sub-continent in Thailand, dating back to ancient times. Along with Persians, Indonesian Muslims, Portuguese, Dutch, Chinese and many others. Some of the most influential families in Thailand, including the high aristocracy, trace their roots to Indians who were here many centuries ago. Thai religious practices, their architecture in ancient temples, alphabet and more have deep roots in Indian culture. Buddhism of course originated in the sub-continent.

BTW, I have friends in California who are white Anglo-Saxons who have converted to Sikhism. You can't assume anything about anyone's appearance based on their name.

[jayjay0]

To all,

Thanks for the comments.

We preparing to leave and not in 2 years but asap.

Yes, I understand you all and there is a tendency with most of you of being quiet, listen to what they say, agree with everything (also when they wrong) and even (as I understand to get some soup) pay them. Well, all those things I don't like to do and will not do. I am a human being and not a dog and have a few degrees an a pilot license. I do not like that people, whomever it is, use me as a doormat to clean their dirty shoes. If I think they are wrong, I will tell them and ask to explain. If they are wrong for sure , I need a good explanation. I have my dignity and want to keep it. I not have to say "thanks" to anyone, however, I think a lot of the posters here have to do.

Yes, I am well dressed and good prepared every time I go and yes, my wife goes with me. She comes to the point now that she want to leave asap as she is tired of this Thai behavior. I mean, they never take any responsibility and all have their own interpretation of a rule so they can escape without a sorry. They will never make a mistake in their eyes, even when there is prove. I can image that, if you accept anything and sit there like the lost buffalo and let play them the God, everything will go smooth and fine. I agree with that for 100%. I had to pay already for their mistakes (wrong stamp at arrival, cost 7.000Bath overstay). Yes, I called my Embassy already when they told me a free document would cost me 800 Baht. Their explanation was they had to contact my Embassy to get my official address. My Embassy told me this was just nonsense to get some tea money. Advice from my Embassy "not pay them". If you all accept those things..... good for them. I have my dignity and if I read your replies well; a lot of you lost that value already. Let it be so, not all people are the same.

For me, it is time to move on. Good luck to all of you.

If running away because I don't like what happened to me is dignity I don't want it. Makes no difference where you go if your dignity is that important you will always have problems. Best to except this is not my culture and settle in or move on. Just out of curiosity are foreigners handled with as much honesty and dignity as I read on this thread where you come from?

I freely admit I get nervous every time I go in there but I also do back in the states when I apply for my passport renewal or do it here. Truth be known I get more respect here than in the states. In the states they wont even take my money they made me go to the bank in get a check.