The Rumour Is That Thailand Is Actually Moving Forward

[whybother]

No you miss the point entirely - just because they have uniforms does not mean they are the same - it is how they operate - not how they are armed that is critical and how that role is defined in a constitution. Unfortunately in thailand so long as the Army thinks it has a role to play in politics it will be a monkey on the back of the country's progress towards any workable form of democracy.

THe Army are a major part of the problems facing Thailand; the solution is to disempower them and organise the police as UNCORRUPT SERVANTS of the people .

I agree that the army shouldn't be in politics.

I agree that a police force should be trained to deal with the likes of the red and yellow protests.

Thailand doesn't currently have an appropriately trained police force, so the army are used. The army initially used batons and shields. Then they used rubber bullets. Then they used live ammunition.

They had to step up the response because the red shirts stepped up the provocation. I don't think the army necessarily did a good job in dealing with the red shirts, but that doesn't excuse the red shirts one bit. They pushed and provoked the whole way. They were looking for a fight and that's what they got.

Regardless of whether it was the army, or an appropriately trained police force, it still would have ended up as an armed force against the red shirt protesters BECAUSE THE RED SHIRTS WERE ARMED.

[whybother]

The problem with the Chinese model and all dictatorial models is that they ultimately are doomed.

if you have a successful economy you must have an educated and well-off middle class - and in the end they will demand a say in how things are run.

This is a problem that both thailand and China face in one way or another.eventually you have either to concede to the MC r clamp down - if you clampdown you lose you experts in all areas and investors and eventually the economy dwindles and the society collapses.

Singapore seems to manage.

Singapore is currently undergoing major changes to liberalize both society and business as a new generation of "rulers" comes in. the draconian regulations are now regarded by many as stifling creativity in all sectors.It is also often cited in these types of conversations but I think rather pointlessly as Singapore is a small city state and comparing with China or Thailand is apples and oranges really.

BTW - would YOU want to live there???

Not really. From all accounts, it's very boring and very expensive.

[Deeral]

No you miss the point entirely - just because they have uniforms does not mean they are the same - it is how they operate - not how they are armed that is critical and how that role is defined in a constitution. Unfortunately in thailand so long as the Army thinks it has a role to play in politics it will be a monkey on the back of the country's progress towards any workable form of democracy.

THe Army are a major part of the problems facing Thailand; the solution is to disempower them and organise the police as UNCORRUPT SERVANTS of the people .

I agree that the army shouldn't be in politics.

I agree that a police force should be trained to deal with the likes of the red and yellow protests.

Thailand doesn't currently have an appropriately trained police force, so the army are used. The army initially used batons and shields. Then they used rubber bullets. Then they used live ammunition.

They had to step up the response because the red shirts stepped up the provocation. I don't think the army necessarily did a good job in dealing with the red shirts, but that doesn't excuse the red shirts one bit. They pushed and provoked the whole way. They were looking for a fight and that's what they got.

Regardless of whether it was the army, or an appropriately trained police force, it still would have ended up as an armed force against the red shirt protesters BECAUSE THE RED SHIRTS WERE ARMED.

Now you're way off course.

"Thailand doesn't currently have an appropriately trained police force, so the army are used. " - you're confusing a particular event with a principle pillar of democracy.

but If you like consider this.

The army wasn't used as an alternative to the police it was an agent in an internal power struggle.If thailand had had a reliable police force, it may also have had a democratic government and then those up North would not have felt disenfranchised and so would not have been likely to turn up in the streets in the first place.I'm saying that Thailand's PROBLEMS stem from the lack of democracy and especially democratic iINSTITUTIONS ( i.e legislative, executive and judiciary)...the very same lack of democracy that has plagued this country since really from the first attempts in the 1930s

[canuckamuck]

Thailand will start moving ahead when they hire some intelligent reporters to write real articles.

[ManInSurat]

And this is why rumours and only ever rumours and are generally built on lies, conjecture and nothing more.

You article completely fails to highlight any real evidence or proof of Thailand progressing. It's all baseless.

I love this country, I speak/read/write the language fluently, I've immersed myself in the culture, I've befriended the people, I've lived here for a while now and it is my home. It has some utterly fantastic facets to it and you can come away with many 'once-in-a-lifetime' experiences. It is an unforgettable country.

None of this can detract from the fact that Thailand as a country politically and in many other sectors is like stepping into a time machine that is only set to travel backward in time - in nearly every respect, but definitely regarding all of its business practices, its government and its economy.

Telecommunications in Thailand is a very very big bone of contention for me. I rely on it for work, specifically the internet. The telco companies in Thailand are stuck in the dark ages and will stay this way for aeons to come. Inherent corruption and the willingness of the management to only ever serve themselves and they promoting utter disregard and in some cases disdain for their subscribership - means this country, economically will never move forward. Thailand does not like to be told what to do and it does not like to listen. We cannot say anything here that will ever change the staus quo. That's how it is here and ultimately we just have to accept that.

Don't even get me started on tourism. I worked in the tourist industry in the UK for over 15 years, basically all of my working life and the way the TAT is run sometimes makes my physically sick. I'm not going to expand on the matter here, but just travelling around the country and seeing how tourists are treated, from Phuket's tuk-tuk drivers - 300THB for a 3 min journey, to the fake BIBs/Monks in Krung Thep and other major cities, to the 'temple is closed - come see gems' idiots in Ayutthaya, to the constantly fluctuating price of entry to all national parks, to the digusting rack rates on seafront bungalows, to the unecessary agressiveness of Thai tour operators on land and sea, to the mafia limos beating down the taxi meters outside Suvarnabhumi (ok they're gone, but it took a bloody long time).... there are hundreds of more examples, but I'll stop here for now... these are all examples of a tourist industy in utter disarray and stuck permanently in the dark ages and moving only in one direction - BACKWARDS. Thailand seems to want to lose out to the ASEAN competition, which it will. People all over the country reliant on tourism are starting to suffer now, it's very evident. Those at the top could not care less. This will never change. It is the status quo in this country.

Let's not kid ourselves that Thailand is moving even vaguely in the direction of forward, to posit otherwise is to be firmly living in the land of dreams, wake up and come back to the Land of Smiles. It may be stuck in reverse, but it's very pretty to look at in places.

Edited September 17, 2010 by ManInSurat

[Deeral]

I agree in general with your observartions but not your conclusion...........

"None of this can detract from the fact that Thailand as a country is like stepping into a time machine that is only set to travel backward in time - in nearly every respect, but definitely regarding all of its business practices, its government and its economy."

So many people seem to think that because Thailand gets things wrong or fails to do the logical it is because they are "backward" or "behind the times".RThisd kind of infers a linear progression towards modernity......but I don't think that works - this is the modern world andThailand is part of it. The problems come not from being backward or "stepping back in time" they come from Thailand - a wealthy country's relationship with it's own people and the outside world. this is hampered by at top down/dictatorial sequence of governments and no properly functioning constitutional institutions.

Thasiland is inn the 21st century - it just can't make best use of it as it continually develops non-functioning ideas.....such as a legal system that can prevent 3G.

And this is why rumours and only ever rumours and are generally built on lies, conjecture and nothing more.

You article completely fails to highlight any real evidence or proof of Thailand progressing. It's all baseless.

I love this country, I speak/read/write the language fluently, I've immersed myself in the culture, I've befriended the people, I've lived here for a while now and it is my home. It has some utterly fantastic facets to it and you can come away with many 'once-in-a-lifetime' experiences. It is an unforgettable country.

None of this can detract from the fact that Thailand as a country politically and in many other sectors is like stepping into a time machine that is only set to travel backward in time - in nearly every respect, but definitely regarding all of its business practices, its government and its economy.

Telecommunications in Thailand is a very very big bone of contention for me. I rely on it for work, specifically the internet. The telco companies in Thailand are stuck in the dark ages and will stay this way for aeons to come. Inherent corruption and the willingness of the management to only ever serve themselves and they promoting utter disregard and in some cases disdain for their subscribership - means this country, economically will never move forward. Thailand does not like to be told what to do and it does not like to listen. We cannot say anything here that will ever change the staus quo. That's how it is here and ultimately we just have to accept that.

Don't even get me started on tourism. I worked in the tourist industry in the UK for over 15 years, basically all of my working life and the way the TAT is run sometimes makes my physically sick. I'm not going to expand on the matter here, but just travelling around the country and seeing how tourists are treated, from Phuket's tuk-tuk drivers - 300THB for a 3 min journey, to the fake BIBs/Monks in Krung Thep and other major cities, to the 'temple is closed - come see gems' idiots in Ayutthaya, to the constantly fluctuating price of entry to all national parks, to the digusting rack rates on seafront bungalows, to the unecessary agressiveness of Thai tour operators on land and sea, to the mafia limos beating down the taxi meters outside Suvarnabhumi (ok they're gone, but it took a bloody long time).... there are hundreds of more examples, but I'll stop here for now... these are all examples of a tourist industy in utter disarray and stuck permanently in the dark ages and moving only in one direction - BACKWARDS. Thailand seems to want to lose out to the ASEAN competition, which it will. People all over the country reliant on tourism are starting to suffer now, it's very evident. Those at the top could not care less. This will never change. It is the status quo in this country.

Let's not kid ourselves that Thailand is moving even vaguely in the direction of forward, to posit otherwise is to be firmly living in the land of dreams, wake up and come back to the Land of Smiles. It may be stuck in reverse, but it's very pretty to look at in places.

[ManInSurat]

I agree in general with your observartions but not your conclusion...........

"None of this can detract from the fact that Thailand as a country is like stepping into a time machine that is only set to travel backward in time - in nearly every respect, but definitely regarding all of its business practices, its government and its economy."

So many people seem to think that because Thailand gets things wrong or fails to do the logical it is because they are "backward" or "behind the times".RThisd kind of infers a linear progression towards modernity......but I don't think that works - this is the modern world andThailand is part of it. The problems come not from being backward or "stepping back in time" they come from Thailand - a wealthy country's relationship with it's own people and the outside world. this is hampered by at top down/dictatorial sequence of governments and no properly functioning constitutional institutions.

Thasiland is inn the 21st century - it just can't make best use of it as it continually develops non-functioning ideas.....such as a legal system that can prevent 3G.

What I say may appear to be harsh, and it is only my genuine opinion. I like what you say in places here, but I think some of your reasoning is flawed.

"It just can't make the best use of it as it continually develops non-functioning ideas.....such as a legal system that can prevent 3G."

I don't think the continutal implementation of non-functioning ideas is the problem. I genuinely think it's the utter reluctance of Thai businesses and the government to want to listen to ideas that have been proven to work elsewhere. It does not even try to look at new ideas and ways of functioning. What prevents this? Well bureaucracy and corruption of course. There's many in the upper echelons of business and government that do not want things to change at all and will do every thing they can to prevent progression of any kind. They will never look to examples worldwide and think to themselves, "Oh that's a good idea - let's try that." That kind of innovation and the culture of losing face is too much to surmount in my opinion. It filters down to all levels of business in Thailand, which obviously effects the overall economy. The tourist industry is a perfect example of that. It is damaging itself and will continue to do so. It thinks the world views Thailand as it did in the early 90's. It is now 2010. Time to wake up and catch up Thailand, or face the very real prospect of being one of the forgotten and ridiculed nations of the ASEAN region. A byword for sex tourism, some crowded beaches and corruption. I really do not want this to happen.

"So many people seem to think that because Thailand gets things wrong or fails to do the logical it is because they are backward"....

I'm sorry but not looking to other models and standards that actually work (even within the ASEAN region) and trying to implement instead of simply just repeating the same mistakes over and over and over and over and then saying "Oh that didn't work!" - that to me is perfect evidence of a backwards moving economy and governance. There is no scope for things to be done any other way than this. In fact, if you try to be too progressive you are actively held back by others that control the businesses, economy and government - this is BACKWARD thinking and acting. It leads to and promotes a culture of constant failure. Then it becomes part of the fabric of the country and it's very hard to eradicate. I'd say it's impossible.

This are just observations backed up by time in this country, just my opionion.

Thailand is a lot futher behind than where it should be. It is more backward in a lot of respects than it could be. Thailand is a country of all-out conformity of the masses. All this viewing it from the inside - not from the viewpoint of a very progressive nation.

In Asia, I think South Korea is a fantastic example of what Thailand could be like, it definitely has the natural resources to be an economic force to rival a country like South Korea - but let's all laugh at the idea of this ever happening. You can't ever tell Thailand what it should or might consider doing, and it will, as a country, never listen.

I will continue to live here as I love Thailand immensely and I love a Thai with all my heart, but loving my adopted home and some of its citizens does not mean I should not be allowed to openly criticize it and speak what I consider the truth. Not that me doing this serves any other purpose than making me feel better. Nothing will change.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Deeral.

Edited September 17, 2010 by ManInSurat

[Deeral]

OK - I certainly agree that one should criticise when and where one sees fit - none of this" you're in another country if you don't like it go home" crap.....but I think that to see things as a linear progression is not helpful.Thailand knows where it is it is a power struggle that is affecting it - the roots are in history but the reality is now and change does not have to be a progression similar to the west as we've done that bit - Thailand could very quickly adopt a workable democratic system, if the right people are in power - it has happened before here, but as ever the military stepped in and interfered.

[ManInSurat]

OK - I certainly agree that one should criticise when and where one sees fit - none of this" you're in another country if you don't like it go home" crap.....but I think that to see things as a linear progression is not helpful.Thailand knows where it is it is a power struggle that is affecting it - the roots are in history but the reality is now and change does not have to be a progression similar to the west as we've done that bit - Thailand could very quickly adopt a workable democratic system, if the right people are in power - it has happened before here, but as ever the military stepped in and interfered.

Maybe I should stop looking at things so linearly, it's hard to do that as a human and one who comes from a country of origin that seems to follow this forward progression. It's very hard to see a country moving forward when all the apparent visual evidence is of it moving backwards. If it's not moving forward in a linear fashion, what does moving forward in a non-linear fashion mean - that just sounds like politik speak for moving backwards or sideways to me.

Thailand seems to me, in the way it advertises itself on a global scale, a country that wants all the trappings and benefits of a forward, modern, democratic, economically progressive country. That is exactly how is promotes itself on an international level, to investors, to potential business owners. It wants to be viewed in the this way. Meaning that it will be measured by yard sticks that aren't Thai. It will be compared, in its advances to move forward to other places. Based on these comparisons it fails miserably and it's very very evident.

May I point out that you yourself say that the cyclical nature of progressive Thai governance being thwarted by the military time and time and time again, means that any notion of forward progression is merely an illusion (which those with real power are happy to reinforce) and we have to come up with ideas of forward movement in a non-linear fashion to try say that Thailand, as a country, is getting anywhere.

This cyclical pattern will continue and nothing will change. For a very long time. It's all just smoke and mirrors and pure illusion - this forward progression in a non-linear fashion.

You say Thailand knows where it is, that its aware of its power struggle. I think it, as a country, it isn't aware. I also think that those that are aware are very happy to keep it that way and they hold all the cards.

Edited September 17, 2010 by ManInSurat

[Deeral]

Don't forget too the Thailand has a pretty good economy at present and recovered well from 1997. the international aspects of industry in Thailand are now the mainstay of the economy. If these businesses weren't doing "OK" they'd pull out eventually. Thailand is good at manufacturing that requires a skilled, semiskilled or trained work force.........i've worked a lot with major companies here and at times I fail t see how they can exist at all, but they do.There are business practices that are quite unbelievable and some take up as you say is either slow or non-existant. THe old culture of authority and face still exists throughout industry and again is part of the order that the current elite want to see in place - it works for them, it keeps the wealth in their hands and the labour-force malleable - but there are pressures on this system - just as there are on the Chinese system - it can't last forever with a bourgeoning middle-class and an increasingly skilled work-force.

so I agree with what you see but I don't see it as linear.

[ManInSurat]

Don't forget too the Thailand has a pretty good economy at present and recovered well from 1997. the international aspects of industry in Thailand are now the mainstay of the economy. If these businesses weren't doing "OK" they'd pull out eventually. Thailand is good at manufacturing that requires a skilled, semiskilled or trained work force.........i've worked a lot with major companies here and at times I fail t see how they can exist at all, but they do.There are business practices that are quite unbelievable and some take up as you say is either slow or non-existant. THe old culture of authority and face still exists throughout industry and again is part of the order that the current elite want to see in place - it works for them, it keeps the wealth in their hands and the labour-force malleable - but there are pressures on this system - just as there are on the Chinese system - it can't last forever with a bourgeoning middle-class and an increasingly skilled work-force.

so I agree with what you see but I don't see it as linear.

Well I've had my say and am happy with the way I articulated it.

I've really like some of what you said. Ultimately it's a matter of time as with all things. How long? Who knows. I'd like to see elements of this progression appearing around us soon, but I can't see it yet. I still stand by my point that Thailand should be a lot futher along that it is. Clear evidence of this forward movement is not apparent in any areas IMO. We both know the reasons why this has been hindered.

Nice to have a grown-up and decent debate about such a topic. I really didn't think that was possible on TV, without the conversation or debate degenerating into "IF YOU NO LIKE.. GO HOME!" type mud slinging. Fair play senor. :jap:

Edited September 17, 2010 by ManInSurat

[Deeral]

Don't forget too the Thailand has a pretty good economy at present and recovered well from 1997. the international aspects of industry in Thailand are now the mainstay of the economy. If these businesses weren't doing "OK" they'd pull out eventually. Thailand is good at manufacturing that requires a skilled, semiskilled or trained work force.........i've worked a lot with major companies here and at times I fail t see how they can exist at all, but they do.There are business practices that are quite unbelievable and some take up as you say is either slow or non-existant. THe old culture of authority and face still exists throughout industry and again is part of the order that the current elite want to see in place - it works for them, it keeps the wealth in their hands and the labour-force malleable - but there are pressures on this system - just as there are on the Chinese system - it can't last forever with a bourgeoning middle-class and an increasingly skilled work-force.

so I agree with what you see but I don't see it as linear.

Well I've had my say and am happy with the way I articulated it.

I've really like some of what you said. Ultimately it's a matter of time as with all things. How long? Who knows. I'd like to see elements of this progression appearing around us soon, but I can't see it yet. I still stand by my point that Thailand should be a lot futher along that it is. Clear evidence of this forward movement is not apparent in any areas IMO. We both know the reasons why this has been hindered.

Nice to have a grown-up and decent debate about such a topic. I really didn't think that was possible on TV, without the conversation or debate degenerating into "IF YOU NO LIKE.. GO HOME!" type mud slinging. Fair play senor. :jap:

cheers!

[dighambara]

When all the other countries give priority to education, Thailand refuses to teach her children well. The move forward is inevitable.

To teach the children is dangerous for the establishment.

Now this is the Thai choice and it has to be respected. I guess most of the foreigners wish this move forward to avoid Thailand become a modern, transparent and... expensive country.

This statement startled me, as most of my friends (foreigners) would like for Thailand to progress; Socially, Politically and Economically.

Forty years ago, Thailand was the most progressive country in South East Asia. Because of that history, many foreigners come here expecting Thailand to be more modern than other South East Asian nations, but it is not.

Also, consider the Philippines and their attitude - foreign spouses of Philippine citizens are automatically granted free residence. Thailand does this for wives of Thai, but not for husbands - definitely not forward thinking.

Edited September 17, 2010 by dighambara

[Deeral]

people post the daftest things..."Now this is the Thai choice and it has to be respected."

[canuck1941]

Thailand is definitely moving forward but the self built road seems pretty bumpy in some places. Every country moves at it's own pace; some slow and some faster than others. But who is to determine what is really forward motion. What one person considers an improvement, chances are another person will not.

The road to the future is always under construction.

[Deeral]

<br>

<br>Thailand is definitely moving forward but the self built road seems pretty bumpy in some places.   Every country moves at it's own pace; some slow and some faster than others.   But who is to determine what is really forward motion.   What one person considers an improvement, chances are another person will not.<br>

<br><br>The road to the future is always under construction.<br>

<br><br>Always beware of politicians who use the phrase "moving forward"<br><br>Abhisit use recently in an English speech after the Redshirt demos to try and boost Thailand's international image...<div>.</div><div><br>It is of course completely meaningless - THe economy..."We're moving forward on this"Society ..."so we can move forward".</div><div><br></div><div><br>THink about it actually means we are doing nothing at all. it sounds like a real proposal, but in reality it means what ever you want it to mean.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Sso many politicians when they have nothing to say or are cornered reply........ "we are moving forward on this"...</div><div><br></div><div><br>How?</div><div> </div><div>Where? </div><div><br></div><div>By what action? </div><div><br></div><div>To achieve what?<br>this is a soundbite phrase a catch-all for those with nothing to say who also are doing nothing.<br><br><br><br>

</div>

Edited September 18, 2010 by Deeral

[whybother]

Now you're way off course.

"Thailand doesn't currently have an appropriately trained police force, so the army are used. " - you're confusing a particular event with a principle pillar of democracy.

but If you like consider this.

The army wasn't used as an alternative to the police it was an agent in an internal power struggle.If thailand had had a reliable police force, it may also have had a democratic government and then those up North would not have felt disenfranchised and so would not have been likely to turn up in the streets in the first place.I'm saying that Thailand's PROBLEMS stem from the lack of democracy and especially democratic iINSTITUTIONS ( i.e legislative, executive and judiciary)...the very same lack of democracy that has plagued this country since really from the first attempts in the 1930s

So now your suggesting that a government of elected MPs aren't allowed to use an official policing force to control an armed political group. Are you suggesting that a government should get together a group of mercenaries to control the situation whenever a political protest gets out of hand?

The red shirts broke the law. The red shirts were armed. An available official policing force was used to deal with it.

It's irrelevant that it's the army, since if Thailand had an appropriately trained police force, then they would have been armed too.

It's irrelevant that it's an internal power struggle, because in a democracy, people usually deal with that at elections. The red shirts were not prepared to wait for elections.

And before you say that Abhisit didn't wait for an election, he was elected in the same way as Somchai, and also the same as the current PMs of Aus and UK (both part of coalitions), and the same as the both previous PMs of Aus and UK (who both came to power without general elections), and the same as Samak and Thaksin.

[Deeral]

Now you're way off course.

"Thailand doesn't currently have an appropriately trained police force, so the army are used. " - you're confusing a particular event with a principle pillar of democracy.

but If you like consider this.

The army wasn't used as an alternative to the police it was an agent in an internal power struggle.If thailand had had a reliable police force, it may also have had a democratic government and then those up North would not have felt disenfranchised and so would not have been likely to turn up in the streets in the first place.I'm saying that Thailand's PROBLEMS stem from the lack of democracy and especially democratic iINSTITUTIONS ( i.e legislative, executive and judiciary)...the very same lack of democracy that has plagued this country since really from the first attempts in the 1930s

So now your suggesting that a government of elected MPs aren't allowed to use an official policing force to control an armed political group. Are you suggesting that a government should get together a group of mercenaries to control the situation whenever a political protest gets out of hand?

The red shirts broke the law. The red shirts were armed. An available official policing force was used to deal with it.

It's irrelevant that it's the army, since if Thailand had an appropriately trained police force, then they would have been armed too.

It's irrelevant that it's an internal power struggle, because in a democracy, people usually deal with that at elections. The red shirts were not prepared to wait for elections.

And before you say that Abhisit didn't wait for an election, he was elected in the same way as Somchai, and also the same as the current PMs of Aus and UK (both part of coalitions), and the same as the both previous PMs of Aus and UK (who both came to power without general elections), and the same as Samak and Thaksin.

You're not actually talking about the same thing as this thread.but I'd recommend you brush up on your constitutional studies as well as your critical thinking.

[whybother]

^ yes, it has gone a bit off topic, but once a discussion starts it's a bit hard to find an appropriate thread to continue it.

where in the Thai constitution does it talk about when a government is allowed to use a police force or not?

And it's still early after a big night out, so you'll have to excuse my critical thinking. maybe you can point out where I went astray.

[rubl]

<br>

<br>Thailand is definitely moving forward but the self built road seems pretty bumpy in some places.   Every country moves at it's own pace; some slow and some faster than others.   But who is to determine what is really forward motion.   What one person considers an improvement, chances are another person will not.<br>

<br><br>The road to the future is always under construction.<br>

<br><br>Always beware of politicians who use the phrase "moving forward"<br><br>Abhisit use recently in an English speech after the Redshirt demos to try and boost Thailand's international image...<div>.</div><div><br>It is of course completely meaningless - THe economy..."We're moving forward on this"Society ..."so we can move forward".</div><div><br></div><div><br>THink about it actually means we are doing nothing at all. it sounds like a real proposal, but in reality it means what ever you want it to mean.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Sso many politicians when they have nothing to say or are cornered reply........ "we are moving forward on this"...</div><div><br></div><div><br>How?</div><div> </div><div>Where? </div><div><br></div><div>By what action? </div><div><br></div><div>To achieve what?<br>this is a soundbite phrase a catch-all for those with nothing to say who also are doing nothing.<br><br><br><br>

</div>

If I could read your posts I might or might not agree. As it is with all the html coding I'm not going to try to read.

What are you using as input device anyway?

If PC:

- windows / MAC / other

- browser: IE, Safari, Firefox, Morzilla, Opera, other

If mobile:

- type of mobile

- OS of mobile

- browser

If Blackberry, tablet, etc

- provide details

[Deeral]

Now you're still not either reading of understanding what my point is - and that is thatThailand's problems arise from a lack of proper functioning constitutional institutions.If you brush up on how constitutions work and what they arre for you'll get it....i think.

[whybother]

Now you're still not either reading of understanding what my point is - and that is thatThailand's problems arise from a lack of proper functioning constitutional institutions.If you brush up on how constitutions work and what they arre for you'll get it....i think.

sorry. I actually responded to the earlier part of your post about how the government dealt with the red shirts.

I definitely agree with your point above.

My gripe with red shirt supporters is that they think Thaksin and the other red leaders would actually fix that.

Thailand has a lot a problems, the main one being corruption. For Thailand to move forward (finally bringing it back on topic) these problems need to be fixed.

The red shirt leaders don't have plans to fix them. They just want to be in power so they can continue their corrupt ways.

Edited September 18, 2010 by whybother

[Deeral]

Ah, I see.anyhow Redshirts and their aims etc are one thing and dissent and how a country deals with it are another.It's not really the policies of dissenters that should dictate how a country reacts to them, it is how a constitution deals with it in a "siwilai" way.breaking rules and conventions because you don't agree with a certain groups' policies only leads to further corruption of the rule of law.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Deeral

[whybother]

Ah, I see.anyhow Redshirts and their aims etc are one thing and dissent and how a country deals with it are another.It's not really the policies of dissenters that should dictate how a country reacts to them, it is how a constitution deals with it in a "siwilai" way.breaking rules and conventions because you don't agree with a certain groups' policies only leads to further corruption of the rule of law.

Yes. IMO, the red shirts broke those rules and conventions by using armed protesters to try and get their way. I don't believe the government broke them by using an armed force to deal with the armed protesters.

[backsoon]

Due to commonly known factors, Thailand is constantly on the move to nowhere!

Like Moses in Sinai*. Because the country is going in circles**.

Going, going, going, gone...

*The reference to a walk in a place, that can be crossed in 2-3 weeks.

**The other proof of being the Leader of SE Asia, yet lagging and fast falling behind. Remember the proverbial "...the one one walking in front of me, is actually behind me..."? This can only happen in a circular path.:jap:

[rubl]

Due to commonly known factors, Thailand is constantly on the move to nowhere!

Like Moses in Sinai*. Because the country is going in circles**.

Going, going, going, gone...

*The reference to a walk in a place, that can be crossed in 2-3 weeks.

**The other proof of being the Leader of SE Asia, yet lagging and fast falling behind. Remember the proverbial "...the one one walking in front of me, is actually behind me..."? This can only happen in a circular path.:jap:

Walking behind or in front you said ?

(Maurits Cornelis Escher, 1898 - 1972)

Edited September 18, 2010 by rubl

[asiawatcher]

Let's wait until after the 19th to make (prove) the rumour!

[watcharacters]

I thought it was against Thai Visa forum rules to post a rumor thread.?

that rule only applies to mere mortals.

[Deeral]

Some of you might have already read an article in the Bangkok post which says more or less what I've been trying to articulate but far more succinctly.

[hammered]

Ah, I see.anyhow Redshirts and their aims etc are one thing and dissent and how a country deals with it are another.It's not really the policies of dissenters that should dictate how a country reacts to them, it is how a constitution deals with it in a "siwilai" way.breaking rules and conventions because you don't agree with a certain groups' policies only leads to further corruption of the rule of law.

Sadly one of the biggest corruptions of the rule of law and constitutional protection occurred when 2500 people were killed without trial under an elected government. To date no recent military government has come anywhere near that and you expect unelected governments to be brutal and yet the biggest brutality occurred under an elected one and there was even scant criticism of it in the country

Thailand has a long long way to go