Red Wine

[sabaijai]

Topic slides from temperatures to a debate about old world vs new world wine technology/tastes, cloaked in nationalism served with sarcasm on both sides.

I would like to know the source behind the statement that Australian wines have won more 'gold medals' than any other country's wines. Are we talking about blind, international tastings? I believe in that case France still holds the record. If you're talking about weekend festivals in small towns where all wines tasted are from the country where the wines are made, I've noticed that Australians do love a local wine tasting event. Same in America - loads of gold medals given out for local wines.

I appreciate both Aussie and American reds myself, but find French, Italian and Chilean wines to be substantially better value (that's a personal judgement, not a blanket truth, of course), especially in Thailand.

In France you can buy a decent bordeaux at a local supermarket for around 3-4 Euro. In Australia and America I've never found anything comparable for less than US$8-9, and more often you need to spend US$10-15 or more.

In Thailand, with exorbitant duties tacked on, the difference is 500~600B for a drinkable French, 900~1000B for an equivalent Aussie - just my rough estimation based on what's available where I live (Chiang Mai), and what I've seen for sale in Bangkok. Even better values are found in the large-bottle Italian reds, nothing comes close from Oz (in Thailand). (Don't even think about a Napa red, the selection in Thailand is very thin and hardly the better labels.)

Because France, Italy and Spain dominate both supply and demand (together being much larger consumers, producers and exporters of wines than Oz and the US combined), they will continue to be able to sell wine at home and abroad more cheaply than New World vintners, even though the latter have the advantage of huge wine distribution conglomerates. All international distribution of Ozzie wine, for example, is controlled by three companies (Hardy's is one, I forget the other two); by contrast France alone has many dozens of international distributors competing with each other (or so I've read).

Ozzie and US wine exports remain in the single-digit category (roughly 4-6% for each) while market share for France, Italy and Spain alone is 60%, even though together these three countries have less potential land to produce wine than either the US or Oz. I don't think the Ozzies and Yanks are deliberately over-charging, it's a problem of expensive, limited production, associated with lower consumption.

Since the world's biggest wine drinkers - Europeans - can buy Old World wines for less money (as can the rest of us), I don't see much motivation for being herded up the New World price cline. Unless someone else is buying of course ...

Me, I just want the best wine I can get for the money, and I don't care where it's from. I've lived in Napa Valley and love a good Napa cab, travel to Oz on business semi-regularly and dig the shiraz, and I've also worked in production at a Chateauneuf-du-Pape winery in France (so I think I know a good shiraz when I taste it). In Thailand I mostly buy French and Chilean.

Speaking of New World wines, the Chilean carmenere is worth trying, if you haven't already tried it. Once part of the bordeaux family of grapes, lost to the French during the great phylloxera epidemic, now only Chile grows it. More fragrant than cab or merlot, like a cab sauv crossed with cabernet franc. They can be really impressive, esp for the jaded tongue. Wine Gallery usually carries two or three carmenere labels.

[chonabot]

In the UK (off-topic) Ozzie wines is by far the better value in comparison with French wines. I buy on average 10 bottles a week ( for the last 17 years ) and appreciate wines from all regions. But if you only have a fiver to spare on a bottle , the Oz wine choice will be huge in comparison to the French.

A decent Sancerre or Chateau-n-d-p or Crozes Hermitage will be around £15 , comparing these with a Penfold Bin 389 for a tenner , then see where the value lies.

[sabaijai]

In the UK (off-topic) Ozzie wines is by far the better value in comparison with French wines. I buy on average 10 bottles a week ( for the last 17 years ) and appreciate wines from all regions. But if you only have a fiver to spare on a bottle , the Oz wine choice will be huge in comparison to the French.

A decent Sancerre or Chateau-n-d-p or Crozes Hermitage will be around £15 , comparing these with a Penfold Bin 389 for a tenner , then see where the value lies.

Fair point about wine in the UK. Have you tried making the same comparison in Thailand?

[chonabot]

In the UK (off-topic) Ozzie wines is by far the better value in comparison with French wines. I buy on average 10 bottles a week ( for the last 17 years ) and appreciate wines from all regions. But if you only have a fiver to spare on a bottle , the Oz wine choice will be huge in comparison to the French.

A decent Sancerre or Chateau-n-d-p or Crozes Hermitage will be around £15 , comparing these with a Penfold Bin 389 for a tenner , then see where the value lies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair point about wine in the UK. Have you tried making the same comparison in Thailand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have had a look a few times , but not being resident in Los for a few years would render my opinion a tad out of date alas.

But I will have a looksee next time and will look forward to it

[chuchok]

Thanks Chu - I apologise for the above rant, but I really have had it up to here with these know-it-all &lt;deleted&gt; idiots. We had to suffer one every day or so and remaining polite was frequently difficult to say the least.

Now I have effectively retired from the sharp end, I have nothing to lose and I can at last call a spade a spade.

Still have my cellar though, including a dozen or so cases of Grange '81 & '82. We should share a bottle some day and I'll tell some stories about wine service!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Strewth mate, you could buy a small island in the Pacific for that.Not to mention the jealous rumbles from Chon and Dr Pat.

[chonabot]

Thanks Chu - I apologise for the above rant, but I really have had it up to here with these know-it-all &lt;deleted&gt; idiots. We had to suffer one every day or so and remaining polite was frequently difficult to say the least.

Now I have effectively retired from the sharp end, I have nothing to lose and I can at last call a spade a spade.

Still have my cellar though, including a dozen or so cases of Grange '81 & '82. We should share a bottle some day and I'll tell some stories about wine service!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Strewth mate, you could buy a small island in the Pacific for that.Not to mention the jealous rumbles from Chon and Dr Pat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ye Gods......

[wilko]

I'm so glad to hear you've retired and left the industry to less irascible people who care about wines rather than just whines. Leaving us to drink what we want and not what you think we should like…

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Someone mentioned a good Ozzie Cab Sav takes some beating. I'm sure anything with alchohol takes a beating in Oz 

The thing I love about especially red wines is their indivdual character or flavour, year to year. And a hint of the oak. Stainless steel vats just cannot reproduce that. And I'm not a 'connoisseur' . Helll I drink Chang

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did the SS vats come from?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I prefer wines stored in oak and not created in vast stainless steel vats and then added vpreservatives.

Post #47

And also, I'm not saying all Oz wines are made in stainless steel vats. In fact, I'm not talking about Oz wines at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't worry ... ole Wilko is but a trainee knowall wine snob.

[baht&sold]

Don't worry   ...   ole Wilko is but a trainee knowall wine snob.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll go one further to de-snob wine culture purists-

Bottled wine should have plastic corks. That's right, plastic

(oh boy, now what may follow)

Edit/ keeping this Thailand related, I meant particularily wine sold to/in Thailand

Edited August 3, 2005 by baht&sold

[chownah]

Sour Grapes!

[wilko]

Someone mentioned a good Ozzie Cab Sav takes some beating. I'm sure anything with alchohol takes a beating in Oz 

The thing I love about especially red wines is their indivdual character or flavour, year to year. And a hint of the oak. Stainless steel vats just cannot reproduce that. And I'm not a 'connoisseur' . Helll I drink Chang

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did the SS vats come from? :blink

:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I prefer wines stored in oak and not created in vast stainless steel vats and then added vpreservatives.

Post #47

And also, I'm not saying all Oz wines are made in stainless steel vats. In fact, I'm not talking about Oz wines at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't worry  ...  ole Wilko is but a trainee knowall wine snob

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and what strange and befuddled thinking leads you to that conclusion?

[chonabot]

I just think the guy , for whatever reason, dislikes Ozzie wine.

Up to him........

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Was that up to him or up him ?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Don't worry   ...   ole Wilko is but a trainee knowall wine snob.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll go one further to de-snob wine culture purists-

Bottled wine should have plastic corks. That's right, plastic

(oh boy, now what may follow)

Edit/ keeping this Thailand related, I meant particularily wine sold to/in Thailand

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The screw tops are getting popular too

[Jai Dee]

The screw tops are getting popular too 

I know that Ambrose Wines from Oz are starting to import bottles with screw tops... and it's reasonably tasty stuff too... but I think they're only on selected white wines...

Has anyone seen any reds with screw tops yet?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I have just returned from Oz and Penfolds are popping screw tops on cheaper whites and reds ( eg. Koonunga Hill range )

[Jai Dee]

I have just returned from Oz and Penfolds are popping screw tops on cheaper whites and reds ( eg. Koonunga Hill range )

Did you bring back any samples?

Hey Doc, do you ever make it to the Royal Cliff Wine Club nights at Pattaya?

[WhiteShiva]

Don't worry   ...   ole Wilko is but a trainee knowall wine snob.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll go one further to de-snob wine culture purists-

Bottled wine should have plastic corks. That's right, plastic

(oh boy, now what may follow)

Edit/ keeping this Thailand related, I meant particularily wine sold to/in Thailand

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The screw tops are getting popular too

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And the little parasols. Nothing like sitting by the pool with a cocktailglass with some crushed ice, some Chablis or perhaps a good Chardonney, a squeze of lemon and a little parasol planted right in the middle.

Now that's what I call class!!!

[baht&sold]

Don't worry   ...   ole Wilko is but a trainee knowall wine snob.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll go one further to de-snob wine culture purists-

Bottled wine should have plastic corks. That's right, plastic

(oh boy, now what may follow)

Edit/ keeping this Thailand related, I meant particularily wine sold to/in Thailand

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The screw tops are getting popular too

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And the little parasols. Nothing like sitting by the pool with a cocktailglass with some crushed ice, some Chablis or perhaps a good Chardonney, a squeze of lemon and a little parasol planted right in the middle.

Now that's what I call class!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now that's what I call silly

I'll shun the snobs anyways, continue to chill my red and just hope the cork wasn't faulty, spoiling yet another imbibe...

Imho, plastic is the way fwd, surely even wine snobs and hi so's don't appreciate a spoilt offering?

PS, chablis?

Edited August 4, 2005 by baht&sold

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I have just returned from Oz and Penfolds are popping screw tops on cheaper whites and reds ( eg. Koonunga Hill range )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you bring back any samples?

Hey Doc, do you ever make it to the Royal Cliff Wine Club nights at Pattaya?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've heard about it but haven't been there Jai Dee

[Jai Dee]

I have just returned from Oz and Penfolds are popping screw tops on cheaper whites and reds ( eg. Koonunga Hill range )

Did you bring back any samples?

Hey Doc, do you ever make it to the Royal Cliff Wine Club nights at Pattaya?

I've heard about it but haven't been there Jai Dee

It's a great night out...

Last month we sampled Baron Phillipe de Rothschilds wines from Chile... guests included the Chilean Ambassador to Thailand, the CEO of BPdR from France, and the winemaker from BPdR from Chile... great food supplied by the hotel, excellent wine and tasting commentary... bottomless glasses... topped up by the staff from the hotel... a fantastic evening.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I'll get legless and stay overnight sometime

[p1p]

Sorry about this change of subject, but you might be interested in a little story about Baron Philippe. He was a true gentleman, of whom there are far too few left nowadays.

He came to my restaurant with his wife one evening after the opera, dressed to the nines with topper and tails, his wife wearing a King's ransom in jewellery.

Unfortunately he had not booked and the only table I could give him was directly beside a pair of punks. (They were well known musicians, but in their leather gear, outrageous dyed, spiked hair styles, safety-pin piercings etc.)

I seated the Baron & his lady with some trepidation and arranged their orders for food and wine. When I returned to the table some 15 minutes later, the Baron and his wife were sharing laughter, drinks and food with their outrageous neighbours.

As I said above, a true Gentleman in the best, old fashioned meaning of the word.

[Jai Dee]

Great story p1p!

[chico]

He came to my restaurant with his wife one evening after the opera, dressed to the nines with topper and tails, his wife wearing a King's ransom in jewellery.

Would that restaurant be overlooking "l'ile de la seine et la cathedrale" ?

being in the fith or sixt (not too sure anymore?) floor?

Having an immense cellar?

enjyoed it very much, but unfortinately too long ago.

Have to agree with what you said in another post before:

which wine you drink with which food, and at which temperature is absolutrly up to you!

if you are clever, you will discuss it with the sommelier, and most likely follow his suggestion unless you want to drink a certain wine you know and like.

By the way, somw red wines, "have" to be drunken ice cold, like Beaujolais nouveau, but it's still up to anybody's liking.

About ozzie wines, there are good ones, and not so good ones, it's like with ladies: "tastes are different" - luckily - if everybody likes the same wine, we would run out of it very quick!

two things :

ozziedom: you do not have to decant every wine, this is only necessary if the wine is a little (or more) older, just to make sure, the font stays in the bottle, and the wine can take up more air.

chonabot: you'r absolutely right, wine prices in the UK are (or were, when I was there) a lot lower than in the continental europe.

I will never forget a hotel in central Manchester, about 15 years ago, where we had an excellent meal and 3 bottles of Lafitte-Rothschild, 1975, at 26 pound per bottle - dunno, how they could offer it at that price? but, excellent wine!!

[p1p]

No, I'm afraid my restaurant was in London.

[Rinrada]

Went to a London Embassy do a couple of weeks ago and they were serving up Monsoon Valley.............and it was very good...Any opinions.

Bit of Info...and must pick up some more...

Thai Wine

Monsoon Valley wines are made to enhance, complement and balance a rich mixture of Thai flavours; spicy, sweet, salty and sour.

These light to medium-bodied wines are dry and with lower acidity, in order to balance the already complex flavors of Thai cuisine.

The wines are especially good with spicier dishes.

Monsoon Valley White

With exotic aromas of lemongrass and watermelon, this is a light-bodied wine with a crisp and fresh finish.

This white wine is made from the local Malaga Blanc (85%) and Colmbard (15%) grown on the amazing "floating vineyards" north of the Gulf of Thailand in the Chao Phraya Delta.

The white has naturally a low acidity, which is the ideal balance for the spicy dish. Our research confirmed that acidity attacks the palate in the same way that spices do. It is why many high acidic wines (Riesling from Germany, Champagne, etc..), neutralize the acidity by keeping few g/l of residual sugar, which unfortunately will not go well with the some dishes.

"Modern, aromatic. It is the sort of wine I would be very happy to drink with Thai food because of its aromatic quality. You do not want a plain dry wine with spicy food"

-- Robert Joseph, Chairman of the Asian Wine Challenge and Publishing Editor of Wine International Magazine, Quoted on the BBC Foods & Drinks Programme, 22 February 2004

Monsoon Valley Rosé

With fresh aromas of watermelon and mango fruit, this is a light-bodied wine with a crisp and delicate finish.

This rosé wine is made in the saignee method, whereby the local Malaga Blanc, Pokdum and Black Muscat grapes are macerated and fermented together.

The Rosé is dry, clean easy to drink chilled, with red fruit aromas (strawberry-redberry), light palate with a crisp acidity.

This is a perfect complement to your Thai food, especially with mixed starters and fish cakes.

“This is about as exotic as wine gets. The winemaker has convincingly combined the obscure Malaga Blanc and the mysterious local red variety, Pokdum, into a luscious rosé style wine that begs for classic Thai dishes. An appealing salmon color, it has a rich aromatic bouquet and a touch of sweetness in the middle palate, balanced by firm, minerally finish.”

Denis Gastin, Australian Wine Selector Magazine (Harvest 2005)

Monsoon Valley Red

With bright and clean red fruit aromas, this is a medium-bodied wine with a velvety finish.

This red wine is made from a blend of local Pokdum (80%), Shiraz (15%) and Black Muscat (5%) grown on the amazing "floating vineyards" north of the Gulf of Thailand in the Chao Phraya Delta.

Monsoon Valley Red wines are light with some Black berry, mulberry aromas and a leathery flavour. With hot climate of Thailand, every wine is served very cool (8 to 12°C).

This is a perfect complement to your Thai food, especially with red curries, satay and other meat dishes.

"The Monsoon Valley Red has a perfumed fruitiness that seems to work with spicy Thai Food" --Andrew Catchpole, quoted from the Daily Telegraph, 3 January 2004

Monsoon Valley Shiraz

This new-world styled wine has a dark purple robe, exhibiting warm aromas of cedar, spices and intensely ripe plums. more...

Our Shiraz are grown on the hillside vineyards of Thailand. To create this full-bodied wine we selected the best cuvee from the two yearly harvests.

The finish is medium length. This wine is best enjoyed between 18-20C with red meat or on its own.

[thedude]

14:45:20]

A good Oz Cab Sav takes a bit of beating

I find most Aussie wines undrinkable! Especially the Cab Savs and those awful Chardonays

What a pity. So what wines do you like?

Chateau de cardboard...2005 I think.

Chateau de cardboard...2005 I think.

Wine in a box - an Aussie invention

That old ?

I like my wine to mature and be free of preservatives. I also prefer Merlots

I went to a wine tasting in UQ - (University of Queensland) and had indigestion for a week!

If the Aussies could make a wine you could lay down rather than lying with their mouths open under the vat waiting for the first "drinkable" drop to come out, they might start on the right road to making a tipple that one could imbibe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

perhaps....but this reminds me of an experience i had while holidaying in france a few years ago. i was living in a small country town called Agen somewhere south of bordeaux and once every week, we'd totter on down to the local wine station (and i call it wine station with good reason) with a few 20 ltr jerry cans, whereupon we would fill them up with the local wines using what looked exactly like the nozzle pumps you get at petrol stations. lets just say the aussies don't hold to lowest peg on the ladder of casual wine consumption in my books.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

I bought a nice bottle of red wine before leaving England to go with the lamb joint my brother was roasting.

It was expensive and one bottle wasn't enough.

[thaigene2]

Seems kind of silly debating individual tastes doesn't it - hey I think Aussie wine is too acidy as well..don't like the heavy oaking..and I've been drinking the crap for 30 years..so I'm kind of an expert too

Anyway, not here to slag..I have two questions and you can PM me with answers please..

1. Why are New Zealand wines (red and white - like em both) so much more expensive than Aus wine in Thailand. In other countries, Canada, US, UK I've noticed they are around the same price. Is this one country paying the full-on duty and the other fudging the price for Thai Customs?

2. Finding NZ wines (especially reds) here in LOS is difficult - and as mentioned pricey. Any tips for Bangkok (other than Villa and Wine Connection, please)?

-thaigene