Pigs 101 (A Start)

[jompa67]

As I have said in another thread, small farming is dying in the west and will die in Thailand.

What is the definition for small farm in Thailand?

[CHRISTIANa9]

As I have said in another thread, small farming is dying in the west and will die in Thailand. One day we will all work for the man.

I will be long dead and won't care, but my kids and lot's of rural Thais will have lost their freedom and life style for a mobile phone and a nice car.

No way to stop it, just the way the world works. Jim

In australia small farms will survive for they can stop and start production with ease as witnessed during the last drought. It's the big boys who will shit in their pants. I think small farm is here to stay, even in china.

[jamescollister]

As I have said in another thread, small farming is dying in the west and will die in Thailand.

What is the definition for small farm in Thailand?

Don't know, but am one of the top 3% percent of rubber producers in Thailand, that's more than 10 hectors, not big. Look at US or OZ rice farms 1,000 acres or hectars of land. you can't compete in price. Jim

[jamescollister]

As I have said in another thread, small farming is dying in the west and will die in Thailand. One day we will all work for the man.

I will be long dead and won't care, but my kids and lot's of rural Thais will have lost their freedom and life style for a mobile phone and a nice car.

No way to stop it, just the way the world works. Jim

In australia small farms will survive for they can stop and start production with ease as witnessed during the last drought. It's the big boys who will shit in their pants. I think small farm is here to stay, even in china.

Gather you are not a farmer in Oz. Small farming is dying, families are getting put off their land or selling up and leaving. Even the biggest cattle farm in the world went under last year.

I can grow rubber in the north, but taxes, etc would make it impossible.

You can make a good living here on 10 acres. In Oz 500 is a hobby farm. Jim

[IsaanAussie]

As I have said in another thread, small farming is dying in the west and will die in Thailand.

What is the definition for small farm in Thailand?

The definition I have seen usually used is 2 hectares (12.5 Rai) and below. Some 85% of global small farms are in Asia. Don't disagree that the future is not bright here but I think they will be around for a while yet. For the purpose of pig farming, plenty of room.

[grimleybob]

As I have said in another thread, small farming is dying in the west and will die in Thailand.

What is the definition for small farm in Thailand?

Don't know, but am one of the top 3% percent of rubber producers in Thailand, that's more than 10 hectors, not big. Look at US or OZ rice farms 1,000 acres or hectars of land. you can't compete in price. Jim

It's the same with Beef cattle the average herd size in the whole of Thailand is about 5. So, with as little as 10 -20 rai and a modern set-up, you could be in the top 10% of cattle producers in the country.

In Thailand, size ( of land) doesn't count, it's what you do with it that matters

As IA always preaches you have to find your niche market and supply the demand and the demand is always there for high quality products.

If you only have a small amount of land it is even more important that you get it right. You have to do your research. look at historic fluctuations in the market. If you can't live with the highs and lows don't do it. Look for something more stable that isn't affected by global influences. Look for a growing market. The younger generation are influenced by western culture and food. Just think before you dig.

[humblefalang]

interesting last few posts here,

what is wrong with (if you can't beat them joined them)

I have mentioned it before, set up a farm for about 700 bests about 2million baht.

go with betagro instead you will get about 5baht/kilo

village where i live has 6 farms and two more being built,

the rummor is that they are making about 300.000 every sale which is about 4 months,

that is after electricity and water bills,

believe it or not it is a one man job in the farm, feeding and cleaning, one outside drying the shit and bagging it, 30baht a bag,

and you also get paid by the trucks( tank) that comes to take the shit in liquid form, 200-300 per truck full,

again it is rummors but an uncle of the missus got a loan somehow build one did the contract with betagro, never looked back, paid the loan in 3 years, new house, new car, and seem happy, but it has hard work.

[IsaanAussie]

Nothing wrong with joining in if you know the rules now and into the future. I for one would beinterested in having a look at the current terms being offerred because all I have is hearsay.

If a betagro contract yields 5 baht a kg, then 300,000 baht means 600 by 100kg pigs,right? And dry mucking out for that many pigs is done by one guy? That I would like to see!

[humblefalang]

no, not really its a combination of dry and being taken out by the tankers of which you get paid for.

the muck as you would guess goes into one big lagoon, from there, tankers and drying takes place,

and yes, its one person job, you cant do it all year round cause of the raining season,,

hard to believe but imagine you have your tubing and pumping done all laid out fro the lagoon to the shallow beds where it get dried all you have to do is pull the starter on the pump then turn it off, when all dried you bag it, then comes along the husband help load it to the truck, taken to to store house and that's it,

as i said this is what i can see and hear from this particular people, they are family of the father in law, i know them for years,

as you mentioned the rules are unknown to me and the missus too, even they don't seem to know how long they can keep going,

my exact point when the missus goes on about it,

they must have a sort of 5 10 year contract i would think.

back to what i am doing at the moment,

i used the balance feed, 951,952,953,954 in grain form(no complaints)

we have another three sets of piglets 11,13,12,

the missus for some reason wants to have a go at using this feed also from betagro but in powder form which then gets mixed with lam from rice.

anyone feeds their pigs that way, and whats the ratio?

my argument with the missus is as follow. Me asking the questtions offcourse.

if the grain form just good enough why change?

Because its cheaper.and someone in the village tried it and never went back to grain feed.

how much is it per bag?

not sure yet.

all inputs appreciated,

Thanks

[jompa67]

Any1 know how it works with contract farming. Is booth feed and piglet free or how does it work? What about if some of pigs die, who pay for that?

[humblefalang]

there is nothing to pay

Any1 know how it works with contract farming. Is booth feed and piglet free or how does it work? What about if some of pigs die, who pay for that?

there is nothing to pay, if the pig dies you wont get the money from it,

the feed is all free hence only 5baht per kilo.

you need to build the farm according to their standards,

betagro has two corrently two size farms,

it does not matter who build it as long as they geographically orientated the way they want which is east west,

the small farm it costs about 1 mil for about 40 pigs and the larger is about 1.8 mil.

the first things to get ready is the land, near a main road and far from village.

then get water and electricity

contact your local office and then just follow their requirements

[Monkeypants]

I have a chicken farm that operates on similar profits.

The pig farms I know typically have 2 staff to feed and clean etc,

Contract farming works for me, although sometimes it is difficult to know when they will pay you.

The chicks are supplied as well as the food, vaccines etc.

They are not free. They cost 10 baht per chick, 400 baht per bag of food, the food and chick bill is over 1,000,000 baht per 37 days

We don't pay for the chicks or food, they are deducted from the gross profit, leaving you with the margin.

If the birds got wiped out by some disease it would cost us the chicks and the feed used.

I would imagine it would be the same for pigs

Its a worldwide formula, adopted by all the major players in the world.

[IsaanAussie]

no, not really its a combination of dry and being taken out by the tankers of which you get paid for.

the muck as you would guess goes into one big lagoon, from there, tankers and drying takes place,

and yes, its one person job, you cant do it all year round cause of the raining season,,

hard to believe but imagine you have your tubing and pumping done all laid out fro the lagoon to the shallow beds where it get dried all you have to do is pull the starter on the pump then turn it off, when all dried you bag it, then comes along the husband help load it to the truck, taken to to store house and that's it,

as i said this is what i can see and hear from this particular people, they are family of the father in law, i know them for years,

as you mentioned the rules are unknown to me and the missus too, even they don't seem to know how long they can keep going,

my exact point when the missus goes on about it,

they must have a sort of 5 10 year contract i would think.

back to what i am doing at the moment,

i used the balance feed, 951,952,953,954 in grain form(no complaints)

we have another three sets of piglets 11,13,12,

the missus for some reason wants to have a go at using this feed also from betagro but in powder form which then gets mixed with lam from rice.

anyone feeds their pigs that way, and whats the ratio?

my argument with the missus is as follow. Me asking the questtions offcourse.

if the grain form just good enough why change?

Because its cheaper.and someone in the village tried it and never went back to grain feed.

how much is it per bag?

not sure yet.

all inputs appreciated,

Thanks

OK, so the guy cleaning just uses a hose no shovels involved. That is a wet muckout system. Now I understand. Enough water pressure and it is a snap. Different system.

Feed. I use the same 951 through 957 pelleted feed.

The concentrate form in powder form is designed to be mix with rice bran and other things can also be used. It does work out slightly cheaper but depends on the quality of the bran used to get the balance right. The mixing ratios are printed on the bags. Personally I would have to buy the bran (big question on the age of the bran as it loses protein very quickly) and then mix. The pigs like the pellets and there is little waste. I suppose the real issue is if you should use the compound mixes with very young pigs. I doubt I would even consider dropping 951 or 952 stages. A maybe half way through 953 at about 50kg.

Sorry no idea on the costs but can check locally for what it is worth next time in on a feed run. The information on ratios is on the betagro website as I recall, try using your browser translator.

[IsaanAussie]

there is nothing to pay

Any1 know how it works with contract farming. Is booth feed and piglet free or how does it work? What about if some of pigs die, who pay for that?

there is nothing to pay, if the pig dies you wont get the money from it,

the feed is all free hence only 5baht per kilo.

you need to build the farm according to their standards,

betagro has two corrently two size farms,

it does not matter who build it as long as they geographically orientated the way they want which is east west,

the small farm it costs about 1 mil for about 40 pigs and the larger is about 1.8 mil.

the first things to get ready is the land, near a main road and far from village.

then get water and electricity

contact your local office and then just follow their requirements

there is nothing to pay

Any1 know how it works with contract farming. Is booth feed and piglet free or how does it work? What about if some of pigs die, who pay for that?

there is nothing to pay, if the pig dies you wont get the money from it,

the feed is all free hence only 5baht per kilo.

you need to build the farm according to their standards,

betagro has two corrently two size farms,

it does not matter who build it as long as they geographically orientated the way they want which is east west,

the small farm it costs about 1 mil for about 40 pigs and the larger is about 1.8 mil.

the first things to get ready is the land, near a main road and far from village.

then get water and electricity

contact your local office and then just follow their requirements

Sorry but there is a heap to pay. The 40 pigs per cycle and 5baht/kg profit yeilds an annual gross income of 60,000baht (120 pigs/yr at 500 baht each, best case). That cant be right? You are spending 1m ON THE STY to house 40 pigs! Give me some of the builders action any day. That just doesnt work.

Pig stys have a life expectance as the excretions are corrosive to metal and concrete, here 10 years is the taxation suggested right off period. Maintenance is almost constant. ROI on CAPEX is 100k Baht/yr minimum. Add wages at 300 a day, theres another 100K pa. It is costing you 140K per year plus power and on costs, basically 20K amonth to watch your investment fall apart.

If it was 40 per month delivered finished different story. That means the sty has to hold 160 to 200 pigs every month in batches of 40. Gross income becomes 720K per year. Whole new game on the basics but I still do not know about the vet fees and control you would have.

Edited January 29, 2013 by IsaanAussie

[Khonwan]

6 years ago, I had 123 pigs in 10 pens. Took me only 2 hours to feed and clean them and the pens, or 1 hour with my wife (we used no labourers). I posted back then (my topic: “pigs”) that we were planning to raise 1,000 after that trial period. TV member “Somtham” visited my farm at the time and posted pics on the thread. On his way to me, he stopped in to visit a contract farm and posted the full details on the terms & conditions in the same thread.

Rgds

Khonwan

[CHRISTIANa9]

"Gather you are not a farmer in Oz. Small farming is dying, families are getting put off their land or selling up and leaving. Even the biggest cattle farm in the world went under last year.

I can grow rubber in the north, but taxes, etc would make it impossible.

You can make a good living here on 10 acres. In Oz 500 is a hobby farm. Jim"

During the 2 consecutive years of drought which happened a few years ago, the small farms were dumping their stocks due to the high cost of feed. As a result prices of pork dropped significantly to the extend even the big boys have to downsize costing millions in restructuring cost. Subsequently prices of feed return to norm and due to the number of small exiting the industry in previous year, there was a shortage of pork in the market and hence with shortage, prices increase and when prices increase the small farms are back in business causing a glut thus depressing prices again. All, in all, 2 bad drought years, follow by 2 years of good pork prices and follow by 2 years of poor pork prices.

So small farms are always there, they just move in and out as they suit. Granted the numbers of small farms have decline but it is due to the younger generations no longer interested in farming but it will always be there cos one day they will aged.

Small farms have little cost cos the farmers are the labor and they do keep some grains during harvest as feed with nominal supplement. Where as large scale operators have large overheads especially environmental compliance cost. So economic of scale may not necessary apply in the piggery industry.

It doesn't help when Coles and woollies demand stall free sows and free range pork. Do they ensure imported pork products are stall free and free range? I wonder.

There is also a shortage of pigs in Philippines and all these demand are met by frozen pork from South America and Europe.

[tingtong]

Isnt most small farmers here strive to be also in and out?

After all it seems most small farmers try to time pig selling between Dec-to Songkran...

I doubt most raise that much for the rainy season too, when frog, snake, and rats more readily available to the daily Issan cuisine.

[humblefalang]

No, sorry, my mistake IA

there are two size farms with betagro one accomodates about 400 pigs (not 40) and the other is about 700 pigs.

price is about 900.000-1000000 and 1.8 mil-1.9mil respectively,

this is excluding the preparation of the land ie. flatening plus earth requirements, water supply and elecricity,

[IsaanAussie]

No, sorry, my mistake IA

there are two size farms with betagro one accomodates about 400 pigs (not 40) and the other is about 700 pigs.

price is about 900.000-1000000 and 1.8 mil-1.9mil respectively,

this is excluding the preparation of the land ie. flatening plus earth requirements, water supply and elecricity,

No problems HF, thought as much. After the last year or so, a constant income stream of 500 baht/pig is a breathe of fresh air albeit a poor return. The attractive part is the vast reduction needed in working capital. Not for me, no interest in working for wages on my own farm, especially at my stage of live.

A question that remains before you can judge the cash flow needs is the batch size of piglets delivered?

[humblefalang]

No, sorry, my mistake IA

there are two size farms with betagro one accomodates about 400 pigs (not 40) and the other is about 700 pigs.

price is about 900.000-1000000 and 1.8 mil-1.9mil respectively,

this is excluding the preparation of the land ie. flatening plus earth requirements, water supply and elecricity,

No problems HF, thought as much. After the last year or so, a constant income stream of 500 baht/pig is a breathe of fresh air albeit a poor return. The attractive part is the vast reduction needed in working capital. Not for me, no interest in working for wages on my own farm, especially at my stage of live.

A question that remains before you can judge the cash flow needs is the batch size of piglets delivered?

personally i would not mind getting into contract growing, but that means an investment into a farm (proper farm), we are planning to reduce the pig raising as much as possible,

but with 35 new piglets and three sows, and 12 beasts at around 85 kilos, the low price, its hard to sell anything, even though it may be the wisest thing. the price is just too low and the feed is going up.

we are trying to get to grips with alternative feeding, but it look a bit too far from reality,

[jompa67]

Why don't u guys mixing your own feed instead of being worried all the time about higher price on commercial feed.

U can make profit from:

* Raise your own piglet (from own sow)

* Raise your piglets to 100 kg

* Mix your own feed

Then if possible, slaughter and sell meat on market.

[IsaanAussie]

No, sorry, my mistake IA

there are two size farms with betagro one accomodates about 400 pigs (not 40) and the other is about 700 pigs.

price is about 900.000-1000000 and 1.8 mil-1.9mil respectively,

this is excluding the preparation of the land ie. flatening plus earth requirements, water supply and elecricity,

No problems HF, thought as much. After the last year or so, a constant income stream of 500 baht/pig is a breathe of fresh air albeit a poor return. The attractive part is the vast reduction needed in working capital. Not for me, no interest in working for wages on my own farm, especially at my stage of live.

A question that remains before you can judge the cash flow needs is the batch size of piglets delivered?

personally i would not mind getting into contract growing, but that means an investment into a farm (proper farm), we are planning to reduce the pig raising as much as possible,

but with 35 new piglets and three sows, and 12 beasts at around 85 kilos, the low price, its hard to sell anything, even though it may be the wisest thing. the price is just too low and the feed is going up.

we are trying to get to grips with alternative feeding, but it look a bit too far from reality,

HF,

Send me a PM with your telephone number and lets talk about this. I've been living this type of issue for 18 months.

[IsaanAussie]

Why don't u guys mixing your own feed instead of being worried all the time about higher price on commercial feed.

U can make profit from:

* Raise your own piglet (from own sow)

* Raise your piglets to 100 kg

* Mix your own feed

Then if possible, slaughter and sell meat on market.

One word buggers your post "IF". Sorry not meant to offend but the contract guys appear to be making what I considered the price should be at by now 65, we are stuck at 55 at best without special orders. Mate "IF" is about as much use to me as all the sorry but can't help messages I have been getting lately. FACTS man, that is what the pigsters need! Mix your own? With what and at what price? Justify the savings not the increase in workload or risk of contaminating the feed.

The best chance to sell is between now and the 10th of FEB. If anyone wants to share real information with all the guys stuck with stock, now is the time to do it! For the ideas and wannabie guys, the highest nitrogen is in the urine, go collect UREA!

[IsaanAussie]

Well sorry mod's think I just told the f/wits to piss off. Do me a favour and delete this will ya?

[thoongfoned]

No, sorry, my mistake IA

there are two size farms with betagro one accomodates about 400 pigs (not 40) and the other is about 700 pigs.

price is about 900.000-1000000 and 1.8 mil-1.9mil respectively,

this is excluding the preparation of the land ie. flatening plus earth requirements, water supply and elecricity,

No problems HF, thought as much. After the last year or so, a constant income stream of 500 baht/pig is a breathe of fresh air albeit a poor return. The attractive part is the vast reduction needed in working capital. Not for me, no interest in working for wages on my own farm, especially at my stage of live.

A question that remains before you can judge the cash flow needs is the batch size of piglets delivered?

hi

if you are contracted and running finishing farm you would get most of the pigletts delivered in one hit, if not, no less then 280 a time. the pigletts should average 5.5 kilos at 19 days. this i would say should be the norm. company standards those numbers. then its 4 months to try and get the weight on.

in contracted farming you will be "guilded" all the way from start to finish, with audits once a month. if youcannot tow th line i would say the contract would finish sooner rather then later. when you sign you sign for 10 years, but its reviewed every year. also could be cancelled at any time ect.......... if the standards no good. always somthing new to buy or do snd government checks too, gotta be registed to GPO standard.

once you read the contract like most they have you my the balls, its not for everyone but you always get paid for what you produce and on time.

family have been contract farm for + years now ands know alot of other people who do also, some have 4 + farms.

[IsaanAussie]

And people who call themselves herdsmen go for that? There are no ethics in that at all. Piglets weaned at under three weeks, massed together in groups of 20 litters and transported? That is obscene, inhuman, call it what you will but I would never do that to a creature that cannot use solids under 10 days and be starting to move towards them at 21. Then you expect 5.5 kg to reach 100 kg in 4 months after destroying its digestive tract development? What sort of chemical growth promoting shit are you feeding or jabbing them with?

OK, I'm an Old fart, past his use by date. But if any of you guys tell me that is the way of the future, it better not be face to face because I will throw the first punch and it will be as hard as I can.

[OOTAI]

And people who call themselves herdsmen go for that? There are no ethics in that at all. Piglets weaned at under three weeks, massed together in groups of 20 litters and transported? That is obscene, inhuman, call it what you will but I would never do that to a creature that cannot use solids under 10 days and be starting to move towards them at 21. Then you expect 5.5 kg to reach 100 kg in 4 months after destroying its digestive tract development? What sort of chemical growth promoting shit are you feeding or jabbing them with?

OK, I'm an Old fart, past his use by date. But if any of you guys tell me that is the way of the future, it better not be face to face because I will throw the first punch and it will be as hard as I can.

IA it is not the way of the future, it is the way of the past (at leasst in Aussie). In 1972 I was working at an intensive piggery just out of Perth and we weaned at between 3- 4 weeks. Chucked all the litters from that week's weaning into 1 pen and fed them until they reached "bacon weight" (which from memory was around 90kgs) and then sent them out the door. There were 2 sheds at the farm with nearly 900 sows and they had a contract with Huttons to produce at least 250 pigs per week. "Herdsman?" absolutely not, bacon factory most definitely! Surely you remember the uproar regarding Paul Keating and his piggery, That's what was happening there as well. Battery hens versus free range hens, Australia has been there and moved on because too many people have feelings and emotions but they still want to eat the cheap meat and eggs produced from a production line, can't necessarily have both.

I will wear my full face motorbike helmet if I come and visit you again one day so you break your knuckles not my face.

[IsaanAussie]

Oh really OOtai. Mate dont bring your knive to my gun fight. This has nothing to do with money, this is about greed and being a farmer not an industrialist. If you cannot see the difference, you arent human. You see no value in the pigs as creatures, no enjoyment, just as income, how do you view your kids or your spouse, bits of meat?

[OOTAI]

Oh really OOtai. Mate dont bring your knive to my gun fight. This has nothing to do with money, this is about greed and being a farmer not an industrialist. If you cannot see the difference, you arent human. You see no value in the pigs as creatures, no enjoyment, just as income, how do you view your kids or your spouse, bits of meat?

IA no where in what I said is there anything that says that I agree with producing pork using a production line/ factory method. What I did say was I had worked in such a place. What I was trying to say is that doing it that way is not new.

If I could convince my wife to let me raise pigs (she reckons they stink too much) I would like to build a facility that would allow me to let the pigs out into a yard for periods during the day where they could be more natural than in a concrete pen. In my realitively short time working at the piggery I came to admire the pigs as being as good as a dog and therefore I wouldn't be able to kill my own (I also spent quite a time as a slaughterman), so in the end I don't have pigs as I would become attached and never make a profit even at 100B/kg.

[IsaanAussie]

No sorry, not enough! You greedy bastards. If I have wasted most of my free time feeding your ambitions then I'm Ned Kelly and need to get linched. As he said "Such is Life."

You have never been closer to a pig than the stick you used to hit it with. Load a stress free pig into a transport box and provide a less than 1% moisture loss carcass, and you have not got a clue.