Pigs 101 (A Start)

[MrChangers]

Lads,

for info my roof is 3.0 M at the front end and 2.5M on the back. I felt any higher and the sun from 09:30 onwards would not be blocked out mainly for pen 1. I would like to tell you it was my old draughting skills working the angle of the dangle but when I drew it, it looked right. End result, lucky guess!

The master plan is hammering down the mirror image on Thursday as stated before so, Revar, these concrete panels I shall be looking at. If they are what we used as part of the fascia for the house then I know what you mean. How thick are they please?

Love the way ideas have been flowing and if anyone wants a copy of my piggery plan let me know. Shower design and feeding units are ongoing but have some roughed out plans too if you are interested.

Hang in there everyone!

Nat

[revar]

Kabuang: I use the thinnest ones. 4mm

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Edited November 23, 2012 by revar

[randysavage]

mr changers thats a great sty hope you do well with your piggery

[IsaanAussie]

Here is a chance for anyone looking for a Pietrain boar (or Duroc, I still have 4). This pietrain is a pedigree without papers and a placid animal of around twelve months old. Currently located in Udon he can be shipped to you within 500 kms for around 6,000 baht, he is on the market at live price rates making him a great deal right now. I am trying hard not to buy this pig myself.

Its the business

Edited November 29, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[MrChangers]

Tony,

great looking pig and answered the question as to what a couple of my pigs are. Durocs, large white and I think a few Landrace in my collection I know but today's stupid question name this pig. It is brown with a white saddle, long nose and it's called dog as it acts more like a dog than a pig. Beautiful hazel eyes and barking mad. Actually the stupid question is the one you don't ask. The photo was from over a month ago and not a great shot but any pig miesters wil hopefully recognise the type or is it a Heinz 57 variety? All answers welcome.

Thanks,

Nat

[COXYATCITY]

Tony,

great looking pig and answered the question as to what a couple of my pigs are. Durocs, large white and I think a few Landrace in my collection I know but today's stupid question name this pig. It is brown with a white saddle, long nose and it's called dog as it acts more like a dog than a pig. Beautiful hazel eyes and barking mad. Actually the stupid question is the one you don't ask. The photo was from over a month ago and not a great shot but any pig miesters wil hopefully recognise the type or is it a Heinz 57 variety? All answers welcome.

Thanks,

Nat

hello Nat. looks like Duroc large white,,but Tony would probably give you the correct answer,i will be in Surin next week for 5 days,i will give you a call and have a couple of beers, ,cheers Ian

[IsaanAussie]

Coxy, I think you are probably right. I dont see any Landrace ears but that is not unusual in Duroc crosses. Looking at two pigs and assuming they are from the same litter, my guess would be F1 duroc/large white

[tingtong]

It seems that we are ready to go on and start trial #2, growing some pigs, this time probably 4-5, to try to slightly improve the economics.

Talking it over wife, we decided that feeding 2 or 4-5 is about the same work, while may (or may not?) result a little bargaining power buying feed in....even 10 baht saved per bag is 10 baht in our pocket, in my world. here and there a little can make the deal in the end.

Note, we dont expect to get rich on this trial neither, the target is to show profit however much it is. for pets to keep we have dogs, so, pigs expected to be business, even in a small scale ( for now). As discussed some post earlier, we believe more in the " scale in as gain experience" way, what is not everyone's way of course.

My questions are:

1. the currect fair price of a piglet?

2. while price cant be forecasted for sure, but would like to confirm that the next 4-5 month from now is not a low season selling pigs, to get good price?

Thanks in advance,

tingtong

[IsaanAussie]

It seems that we are ready to go on and start trial #2, growing some pigs, this time probably 4-5, to try to slightly improve the economics.

Talking it over wife, we decided that feeding 2 or 4-5 is about the same work, while may (or may not?) result a little bargaining power buying feed in....even 10 baht saved per bag is 10 baht in our pocket, in my world. here and there a little can make the deal in the end.

Note, we dont expect to get rich on this trial neither, the target is to show profit however much it is. for pets to keep we have dogs, so, pigs expected to be business, even in a small scale ( for now). As discussed some post earlier, we believe more in the " scale in as gain experience" way, what is not everyone's way of course.

My questions are:

1. the currect fair price of a piglet?

2. while price cant be forecasted for sure, but would like to confirm that the next 4-5 month from now is not a low season selling pigs, to get good price?

Thanks in advance,

tingtong

I doubt you will get any discount buying for 4 or 5 but you are right about the work load. Think in terms of pens not pigs. The only extra work with more pigs in one pen is if you shower them one at a time, then that is more fun than work anyway.

Currently piglets are at 1300 to 1500 baht plus or minus 56 baht/kg. If you are trying to maximise your profit then do not start by saving money on the piglets at the expense of the pig. Buy piglets from stock capable of FCR's below 2.6

If you start now you will have sold prior to lent next year, missed the predictable highs over new year and probably Songkran but should be OK.

[tingtong]

Thanks IA,

I was also thining about that price frame, but need some confirmation on fair pricing, as family might be involved ( pigs probably will be from a cousin of wife, f-i-l's piglets are too little just yet, and as for timeframe, i though we should still aim for Songkran, being just the 1st of Dec, if we can get piglets next week, that still should leave us with about 4 months time.

The pan we have will be just as good fitting 4-5 pigs as 2...they just will fill it more up.

Since you mentioned before something like 1.5 sq.m/pig, it will be nicely withing this guideline still.

The saving i meant on the feed....learnt that with the fishfood before, that there is often a little saving to be made already by buying 10 bags vs 2....

If remember, wife last sold pigs small (70kg), claiming that is what there is most interest in our area.

[IsaanAussie]

70 kgs is a ham pig size so your market is for leaner meat. Remember that the piglet per kg is more expensive and at 70 kg the pig is now cheaper but not yet down to 100kg rates. Dont sell for market size rates if you can help it.

[revar]

Had a big shock looking at the farmprices at http://www.swinethailand.or.th/index.php

Prices dropping 4-6 bath beginning of december at several provinces. I expected them to rise towards 60+. Whats happening here?

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[tingtong]

a very noob question:

is there any mojor difference growing "boy" or "girl" piglets?

speed of growth?

taste of meat?

ease of selling?

have some piglets ready to take, for 1200thb each. what weight should i normally expect for them to be? 10kg? +? -?

[humblefalang]

a very noob question:

is there any mojor difference growing "boy" or "girl" piglets?

speed of growth?

taste of meat?

ease of selling?

have some piglets ready to take, for 1200thb each. what weight should i normally expect for them to be? 10kg? +? -?

1200 i would want to be 12-15kg

personally i dont buy piglets no more i grow the sow the mamma pig get her pregnant, and grwo her babies,

the way the price is going if you buy the piglet for 1200-1300, plus the feed 3.500 per pig the profit is minimal.

allow me to share how we do it,

7 days after the piglet is born we give them b-lac from betagro they will not eat but nibble at that age,

then by the time they are two weeks old they actually eat it, by the time they are 22-25days old they are taken from mother and put in a pen by themsleves.

From my experience if i could choose id have boys only,

they grow faster

not sure about taste of meat as all my pigs are sold,

my buyers want size, that what i aim now,

More than you asked i know

hope it helps

[IsaanAussie]

How about a bit of each question.

December not New Year too early to see much further rise. I haven't looked at the prices this week but would suggest it would be a good time to look for the location of the new contract growers farms. They should be coming on stream in force now. Worthy of note piglets were down this week too.

Boys or girls. Well barrows grow fastest because they eat more. They also lay down more fat if you let them eat to appetite after about 60 kg. Boars next, the choice of meat for me (for Durocs) the issue is when they get to 70kg they will start to fight more. They should not be housed with gilts after about 50 kgs. There is the issue of taint with a boar which I have not had but if the pig is slaughtered poorly it can happen. As a rule I make the decision on a boar to breed or not at ham size, if not it is an early exit. Gilts are easy but grow a little slower.

Buying piglets or breeding. This is all about the numbers, piglets you breed are not free they each carry a proportion of the maintenance cost of the sows. Firstly you have to figure the cost of the sow until she farrows. Gestation feed will cost around 20,000 baht per year and lactation a little more per bag. Add the insemination costs or a proportion of the boars upkeep and divide that by the number of weaned pigs per year. Lose a sow to a scorpion bite and a few too many piglets that get sat on and you are sunk. At 16kg a piglet for 1,300 baht is not a bad deal. Track those numbers carefully Humble F, I can't compete at those numbers.

[jompa67]

Break event for a 16kg piglet is around 1400 - 1500 bath if u take all cost in consideration.

[humblefalang]

How about a bit of each question.

December not New Year too early to see much further rise. I haven't looked at the prices this week but would suggest it would be a good time to look for the location of the new contract growers farms. They should be coming on stream in force now. Worthy of note piglets were down this week too.

Boys or girls. Well barrows grow fastest because they eat more. They also lay down more fat if you let them eat to appetite after about 60 kg. Boars next, the choice of meat for me (for Durocs) the issue is when they get to 70kg they will start to fight more. They should not be housed with gilts after about 50 kgs. There is the issue of taint with a boar which I have not had but if the pig is slaughtered poorly it can happen. As a rule I make the decision on a boar to breed or not at ham size, if not it is an early exit. Gilts are easy but grow a little slower.

Buying piglets or breeding. This is all about the numbers, piglets you breed are not free they each carry a proportion of the maintenance cost of the sows. Firstly you have to figure the cost of the sow until she farrows. Gestation feed will cost around 20,000 baht per year and lactation a little more per bag. Add the insemination costs or a proportion of the boars upkeep and divide that by the number of weaned pigs per year. Lose a sow to a scorpion bite and a few too many piglets that get sat on and you are sunk. At 16kg a piglet for 1,300 baht is not a bad deal. Track those numbers carefully Humble F, I can't compete at those numbers.

you just made sit back on my chair, IA

you are quite right all of that must be taken into consideration,

but i still believe in breeding,

yes you may loose a sow, i lost one three weeks ago, going thru the second pregnancy, torsion or something like that?

it happens,

you may have only 5-6 piglets out at one time thats the minimum i have ever had,

but i have also had 15 from one sow,

and yes some were small but with extra care commitment we raised them to an average of 102 kg, at a fair feed price,

i must admit my numbers are not exact but this last two or three posts makes want to know for sure

would i be better off buyng piglets?

off to look at the books?

[IsaanAussie]

Would you be better off buying piglets? I have no idea, honestly!

We live in a part of the world that has the worst type of PRRS, highly pathogenic. Assuming you are further away from the nearest other farm then it can be transmitted by aerosol and you can keep vehicles and people carrying the virus out, then that is a risk you can minimise by being self contained. Pigs go out but dont come in. What is the insurance cost of that?

It is more work because there is more to do and each piglet needs attention. Then the breeding activities and stock. It all adds up to work and hence cost.

For me, I like the freedom being farrow to finish capable. I believe it gives you more options and if you are lucky with results will not cost you more. But there are risks in breeding that are not so high in fattening. It is also harder to adjust or even stop in the tough times, what are you going to do with a 250 kg boar and all his wives?

Bit of a roll of the dice at times.

Edited December 4, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[humblefalang]

i love to do the whole of it,

from getting my local man to get my sow pergnant, delivery, training new sow,watching them grow vaccine, the whole lot, really,

i even built the pens myself,(against inlaws advice) falang head bo pen,

still doing absolutely ever\ything that needs doing,

i even learned how to weld metal together just for the pigs,

the way i look at it

at worst times if i break even im ok,

"Going to check the books" i meant the missus keep a track all cash in and out, number of beasts,piglets everything going back about year and a half,

once decripted i will try to get a spreadsheet out here,

[revar]

I think that for the long haul breeding is better. you are in controll of the quality of piglets and biosecurity is much better.less chance of introducing disseases. But with current prices carrying a 15kg piglet cost of around 1400 (own breed or bought piglet) results in no or minimal profits. So for now I hVe postponed my planned purchase of sows and concentrate on buying pigles.

Here are some of my strategies in buying piglets.

I normally buy 15 kg piglets at between 1200-1500 bath with a 2-4 week guarantee (free new piglet on dead or trade sich ones in) but as stated before this is too high a price at the moment. you can't make much profit. Also with buying piglets there is a chance that there is a dissease which only shows itself later resulting in the dead of a large part of the batch. wasting away due to e-coli often happens around 20 kg. From IA I learned that this wasting is often caused by bad gut-flora due to wrong feed as a small piglet (IA please correct if I am wrong/ misunderstood)

So at this time I buy pigs over 25 kg (easy to calate if you can make aprofit / only small chance of dead) or small piglets just of the sow so I can make sure they get the right food. These piglets need a lot of attention but can often be found at a few hunderd bath only so some deads don't ruin you immediately.

Another thing I do is buy say 30 pigs of different sizes at a fixed price. This way you can often get a nice price per head since it saves the seller weeks of driving around to sell them. Such a batch often contains pigs between 4 and 35 kg from three different litters and/or some runts. I then assume that the small ones will die. If the avarage price is low enough you make that up with the big ones. If the small ones survive its a bonus.

Different times call for different strategies.

If prices rise strongly I want to breed.

If I can sell to bulk buyers Who buy whole batches at prices around 55 bath I buy 15kg guarantee piglets.

If prices are lower I buy (in prefered order) over 25kg, mixed batches or small piglets.

these are my current thoughts but of course they chance regularly since I am learning from you all all the time

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[MrChangers]

Coxy, I think you are probably right. I dont see any Landrace ears but that is not unusual in Duroc crosses. Looking at two pigs and assuming they are from the same litter, my guess would be F1 duroc/large white

Tony,

great looking pig and answered the question as to what a couple of my pigs are. Durocs, large white and I think a few Landrace in my collection I know but today's stupid question name this pig. It is brown with a white saddle, long nose and it's called dog as it acts more like a dog than a pig. Beautiful hazel eyes and barking mad. Actually the stupid question is the one you don't ask. The photo was from over a month ago and not a great shot but any pig miesters wil hopefully recognise the type or is it a Heinz 57 variety? All answers welcome.

Thanks,

Nat

hello Nat. looks like Duroc large white,,but Tony would probably give you the correct answer,i will be in Surin next week for 5 days,i will give you a call and have a couple of beers, ,cheers Ian

Thanks lads,

I like this pig and have a young boar of the same age (I also have another boar a month younger by mistake but that is another story) and was thinking of breeding her. Not thought about breeding seriously before but Piggery Pt2 is concrete posted and roof ready as I type so another leap into the unknown is called for. Reading the knowledge here is a great help. Thanks to all.

Hope to be able to post some pics of Piggery Pt2 by next week as I want 8 pigs/per sty like yesterday.

Nat

[IsaanAussie]

Revar,

You are a gamer man than me, aren't you worried that these mixed batches could have issues that you don't need?

On the piglets gut issue, sucklers are fed animal protein that is milk. Their young digestive tracts are not capable of drawing nutrition from much else. The lactic acid bacteria is built up as they grow and it keeps any E-Coli etc under control in a healthy piglet. When weaned this source stops. Creep feeding is intended to slowly change their diets to solid food prior to weaning. If the weaner feed is spoilt or the piglet introduced to a contaminated pen E-Coli and Salmonella can multiply in the gut and cause scouring or damage to the digestive tract. It the worst cases the tract does not digest the food and despite eating the piglet wastes away.

I dust the weaners feed with milk powder and use LAB in their drinking water to ensure their flora is stable.

Humble,

Why dont you try breeding with your young gilt, learn your lessons without expense? One thing you should look into is the pen requirements for the whole herd before you go too much further.

[chrisnouy]

http://en.engormix.c...2368/165-p0.htm

Take the time to read the article linked here. PRRS is now endemic in Thailand. If you are unlucky and it arrives at your farm then learn how to deal with it. So far I have been lucky but I remain a boy scout and try to be prepared.

Thanks IA very worthy article.

indeed a good read,

thanks for sharing

knowledge is power

a shot in the air

would someone please try to help get the phone number or adress of the betagro slaughter house in khon kaen.

i just cant find it on the net,

but they do have a new plant there.

Thanks in advance

Hi humblefalang

i AM JUST CATCHING UP AFTER A MONTH WITHOUT INET

i SEE YUO ARE NEAR kHONKAEN-- i AM OUT PAST pHU wIANG 70KM NORTH WEST

eARLEIR YOU COMMENTED ON THE TERIBLE LOW PRICES

i DONT KNOW IF ITS CHANGED AROUND kK BUT HERE THEY ARE STILL LOUSY AND I AM SELLING AT 46BHT

TROUBLE IS WHEN PIGS ARE READY THEY HAVE TO BE SOLD HOLDING AND HOPING IS THE QUICK WAY OUT THE BACK DOOR

i TRIED THE NEW SLAUGHTER HOUSe IN kK some time ago BUT THEY TOLD ME THEY ONLY TAKE THEIR OWN PIGS-- cp i THINK

Have you had any luck finding a reliable market?

[MrChangers]

Revar,

You are a gamer man than me, aren't you worried that these mixed batches could have issues that you don't need?

On the piglets gut issue, sucklers are fed animal protein that is milk. Their young digestive tracts are not capable of drawing nutrition from much else. The lactic acid bacteria is built up as they grow and it keeps any E-Coli etc under control in a healthy piglet. When weaned this source stops. Creep feeding is intended to slowly change their diets to solid food prior to weaning. If the weaner feed is spoilt or the piglet introduced to a contaminated pen E-Coli and Salmonella can multiply in the gut and cause scouring or damage to the digestive tract. It the worst cases the tract does not digest the food and despite eating the piglet wastes away.

I dust the weaners feed with milk powder and use LAB in their drinking water to ensure their flora is stable.

Humble,

Why dont you try breeding with your young gilt, learn your lessons without expense? One thing you should look into is the pen requirements for the whole herd before you go too much further.

I had already written the text below as I do not have the Internet at home but reading this may answer a few questions especially Salmonella from chickens. I fear another addition in the "Lessons learned" log.

Ok lads,

the bottom line: Got a sick pig, seperated for 5 days after it had the shakes. Gave it some shots of the piggy penecilin and it seemed to be back on the right foot but now screams for food but does not touch it and losing weight faster than an HIV victim. I suspect it( or was joined in the feast) ate a chicken that flew into the pen, feathers in the pen and lites told the story. Injurys the flesh under the lower jaw that are similar to hen claws ripping the flesh, I have cleaned on a regular basis, plus the jabs.

Now screams like hell at feeding time but as I have said will not eat and is getting very skinny. The rest of the herd are happy and munching food. Any ideas? The 20 Kg syndrome? The rest of the same batch are well and growing very fast so the gut flora idea mentioned in earlier posts (Revar a few days ago et al) does not seem probable or the whole batch would be affected in my opinion, which of course may very well be wrong.

My pens are usually fowl free and in my defence plea will state this is not an everyday occurance.

So any advice or is it "Goodnight Mr Pig, exit stage left" as I do not want to have the animal suffer any unnecessary trauma.

Many thanks in advance,

Nat

[revar]

Nat,

If it is not eating and has wounds it might be on pain. Does it have wounds in its mouth also?

Penecilin alone does not help for pain. A shot of diclofinac does and its effecrive against fever. It often gets sick pigs eating again.

You can also stimulate appatite with a shot of vitamin b.

If you think of salmonella I asume that it has diarea.

For diarea I use different types of medicines. 1cc/10kg. (but the sicknesses it cures do not explain the screaming). you give them intermuscular shots in the neck. One shot a day for at least 3 days. In the orjer side of the neck give them the antibiotic.

Depending of the size of the pig and the type of diarea you can use different medicines.

If its totally liquid like water its probably swine dysentery. most effective is 3 shots of tiamulin. a mix of tylosin/sulfamethazine powder also helps often.

If it has some solids and the piglet is under 20 kg you can try colistin or enrofroxacin. these work against different types of bacteria and you can use the simultaniously.

Colistin is very effective for realy small piglets.

Over 20kg try Tylosin or enro.

Note Tylosin and Tiamulin may not be used at the same time.

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Edited December 6, 2012 by revar

[revar]

Revar,

You are a gamer man than me, aren't you worried that these mixed batches could have issues that you don't need?

.

IA,

Sure, but a man has to live and therefor needs to earn some money. Not fattening pigs for some months means no money so I have to find away to make it profitable. But I do take some precautions.

First. My mixed batches are always from the same supplier. I observe them for a few days before buying. Realy sick pigs or runts I can trade in for new ones. If there is a high deadcount later I get a bigger discount and some free pigs the next time.

when they arrive I split them up in 3 different pens accordong to size. they are not mixed with others until they are sold for slaughter. there is on exception to this rule. if they get sick For more then a few days they go in the sick-pen. When they recover they go in a recovered pen. they never go back to their former pen or are mixed with pigs which haven't been sick.

It realy helps that I have developed some good knowledge of medicines and have several vets which Ican call for advice. most sixkness Ican treat succesfully.

the exception being the wasting dissease.

your advice and explanation has been very helpfull and I am now using more EM regularly. It seems to have a possitive effect already on two 35kg pigs with dysentery. although Ican't completely stop the dysentery (it comes back if I stop medicating) the pigs are puting on weight now. I attribute this to better gut-flora.

Thanx again,

Rene

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[Gary A]

Do you guys castrate all the boars? If not, do the boars get docked in price or do boars and barrows sell for the same price per kilo?

[Khonwan]

I’ve just read this thread for first time in weeks. I have the same question as Gary: do you castrate your boars? If yes, taint is never an issue. All my boar piglets were castrated (barrows); never had any problems raising them with gilts right up to market size. I always preferred barrows since they were probably around 20% heavier than gilts of same age so were very much more profitable (before the market collapsed to 3kg pork for 100 baht direct-sale at local markets by my feed producer and the rest who also ran major farms!).

Rgds

Khonwan

[MrChangers]

Nat,

If it is not eating and has wounds it might be on pain. Does it have wounds in its mouth also?

Penecilin alone does not help for pain. A shot of diclofinac does and its effecrive against fever. It often gets sick pigs eating again.

You can also stimulate appatite with a shot of vitamin b.

If you think of salmonella I asume that it has diarea.

For diarea I use different types of medicines. 1cc/10kg. (but the sicknesses it cures do not explain the screaming). you give them intermuscular shots in the neck. One shot a day for at least 3 days. In the orjer side of the neck give them the antibiotic.

Depending of the size of the pig and the type of diarea you can use different medicines.

If its totally liquid like water its probably swine dysentery. most effective is 3 shots of tiamulin. a mix of tylosin/sulfamethazine powder also helps often.

If it has some solids and the piglet is under 20 kg you can try colistin or enrofroxacin. these work against different types of bacteria and you can use the simultaniously.

Colistin is very effective for realy small piglets.

Over 20kg try Tylosin or enro.

Note Tylosin and Tiamulin may not be used at the same time.

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

Thanks for the info. The latest state of play is the pig is eating greenery, banana leafs, cucumbers et al (thanks for the tip IA) but refuses the Jo-Jo feed outright now. I did mix some up in banana and some in molasses and piggy ate it. Passing more solid stuff now, still not a 100% happy piggy but a lot better than a few days ago. May try different feed - TFG to see if that helps.

Taking the Revar aproach - no sure what caused the sickness, not going back to the main pens.

Thanks to all who offered advice.

Nat

[jompa67]

Any1 knows why prices vent down again? Is market overpopulated with pigs or what is the main reason?