Pigs 101 (A Start)

[IsaanAussie]

IA,

I undestood you make a better profit because of your sale and usage of manure, alternative food additives and other things.

I am however very curious on what average profit per pig you are aiming for.

I do better then the figures I stated because of my feed shop and other factors.

But tingtong asked about reasonable profit per pig for only a few pigs. I think he wants to start carefull without big investments. And if he likes it he can expand, learn and improve efficiency. leading to better profits for less work.

When I started with 8 pigs it took me an hour to clean the one pen. (no slope, gardenhose, bad cement) The one I have just finished take me between 5and 10 minutes including manually mucking it out.

the figures I mentioned are average profits over the last 1.5 year which the small 8-20 pig farmers with basic wooden pens and no income from manure have made.

There are about 15 of those around my village and they buy feed at my shop and/or I arrange for the sale of their finished pigs. So I have a good feel about their profits/losses. Note that this 1.5 year period did also include times with prices at 67 bath and at 43 bath a kilo.

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Revar, I dont really think about the profit per pig as a single objective. The first consideration is reducing the total external expenditure. On a per pig basis that means covering the cost of the breeding herd as well as any individual pig's costs of production. The prices I achieve are different in each segment of the market we serve. In the village market, I get no better than anyone else. As an entire pig to the restaurant market I get closer to pork prices but it involves higher risk and work. Each chef has a weight range preference and you have to be able to plan to hit that target with the right body score when and if he orders a pig. Or adapt to match the next highest weight order. Or slaughter the pig for hams or bacon and sausages. Or sell it to the local market. Each pig you slaughter involves a race against the clock, the environment and on some occasions factors like an early morning whiskey bottle effecting the process. After the pig is on ice, monitoring for moisture loss, pH changes, colour and temperature. Then getting the styrene boxes and packing everything for overnight delivery.

Most people look at growing out a pig to target weight and trying to hit a percentage or profit figure. For me, I plan on my market projections for the best customers and breed to match that as a baseline, increasing production above those numbers means increasing sales to customers, new customers or less profitable market sales. If I could sell every pig I could breed to the top end then I could give you a number, but I can't. Currently my average is down like everyone. I am achieving close to 65 baht per kilo live weight on average across all segments. On a fully amortised cost basis, that is a heavy loss. I console myself by not thinking about the non cash costs and call it a slow bleeding process.

[IsaanAussie]

Lazy Sunday... Better get back soon. But I thought I would add a few thoughts to Revars post.

...reasonable profit per pig for only a few pigs...

Over the last four years the gross profitability per pig has varied between 500 and a 1,000 baht per pig. 2009-10 was the most consistent period with 65 baht being the live price and 50-55 baht the cost.

...start carefully without big investments... if he likes it he can expand, learn and improve efficiency. leading to better profits for less work...

Each to his own. A little bit pregnant is not my style. Bigger profits and less work? Sorry not familiar with that combination much to my own loss. Willing to learn though.

...an hour to clean the one pen. (no slope, gardenhose, bad cement) The one I have just finished take me between 5 and 10 minutes including manually mucking it out...

Define clean! I do a quick flick around when time is short, even miss a day here and there. But to clean the sty properly, to my standards means floors, walls, doors, feeders, drinkers, aisles and drains and most importantly, the pigs. That takes all day for me.

... average profits over the last 1.5 year which the small 8-20 pig farmers with basic wooden pens and no income from manure have made... include times with prices at 67 bath and at 43 bath a kilo...

There was an above 80 baht spike as well in that period. Scale is the balance point here. A lot for a few, or a little for a lot. The industry is driven by large farms more and more and they drive the price the average price down for meat pigs and up for breeding stock. A few pigs for an extra bit of cash is something different. They rely on small increment incomes from many different sources in the year.

Interesting enough there seem to be a lot of new roadside meat sellers at the moment. I wonder how long that will last? Of course it is off the legal grid and hopefully people getting sick wont be the trigger for the authorities to stop it. All in favour of farmers direct selling but under the right conditions.

Edited November 4, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[revar]

IA,

forgot to mention that my wife and I clean together. one flushing with a 1hp pump driven hose and one scrubbing with a broom. focus is on floor. this is the 10 minutes job. the first minute is wetting the pigs. after 5 minutes the dirt comes off easily. every three days we follow up with a anti bacterial solution. once a week.I clean the walls thoroughly with a high presure cleaner. this takes almost an hour per pen.

people are constantly commenting on the fact that they cant smell our farm or pigs. even when they pass close by. I know I can still improve on this.

I am planning to get 2 hp pumps for instance.

Scale:

the idea is that to make a living from pigs I have to do it on a larger scale. say Around 200 pigs. I would love restaurants as customers but wouldn't know where to start to get them. So my main customers are likely to be roadside sellers, market stalls, processing industry and private persons. small profit margins but with scale and an efficient process still possible to make a nice living. At the moment I am building a reputation of quality with some of the big meat sellers in the district. They are prepared to give me a couple of bath above their normal price because of the quality and amound of red meat compared to fat on my pigs.

I know how much pigs they need each day and they buy mine first before they buy others. So I know the market is there.

Its my feed shop which has been most effected by the low prices. more then half of my customers have quit so I hardly make any profit from the shop. but it still serves its main purpose of getting my own feed at a discount.

The vet business could be a big money maker if I was unscrupulous enough. people with pigs are so afraid now that if they have one pig with a red eye they want me to inject their whole herd preventively. I could make 10k a month on this alone. But I am not that type of person so I only medicate when neccessary.

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[IsaanAussie]

Revar,

You are heading in the right direction. Reputation is key and takes time to develop. Your customers are obviously happy to pay a bit more as they can rely on consistent quality. Whilst our markets are different the same rules apply. Well done.

The guys that slaughter for me operate a road side meat shop. They buy some nice pigs from small local farms and I buy meat from them quite often.

My nearest neighbors are much closer than that, much closer. Try under a hundred metres. Large volumes of wash water are not an option for me, but on the odd occasion when time is short or I'm feeling lazy, I do use the 80 litres a minute well pump hose rather than the EM treated gravity feed system. Bacteria control for me is out competing them rather than killing them. Disinfectant in the septic system wouldn't be good.

Edited November 4, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

On the topic of cleaning the pens, I thought I would share this picture of one of those days you just can't get going and others have to take over the chores.

[IsaanAussie]

Well its started, prices going up. October 30 numbers.

Ratchaburi 59.00. (+4.5).

Nakhon Pathom 59.00. (+4.5).

Chachoengsao. 57.50. (+3.5).

Chon Buri 57.50. (+3.5).

(north)East. 55.00. (+3).

Chiang Mai 61.00. (+5).

Sriracha. 57.50. (+3.5).

Surat Thani 55.00. (0).

Songkhla 56.00. (0)

[IsaanAussie]

I moved this link over to Pigs 101 because I think this is a very important issue. Especially for those who are considering major investments in the industry. This could well be the way of the future, working as a contracted grower, or even breeder for the large players.

[MrChangers]

Morning all from sunny Surin,

there is a lot of great information/thoughts here today (at school reading) so I will add my thoughts ....

IA,

I have read some of the Acrobat attachments you have posted and thanks for the information, very useful. In my ignorance, does anyone know what water lettuce and water hyacinth are called in Thai? This would be helpful to explain to my wife what I am trying to do as presently waste liquids are fed directly into the fish pond. Fish seem happy and growing well but my concern is when the season gets drier, I don't want a puddle of concentrated piggy pee.

As for feed I am going to split Jo-Jo and Balance between the batches of pigs and see if there is any difference in growth. Any of you porky pundits out there tried or measured this before?

And one last question for the Monday quiz, as we have a few fields of rice straw basking in the sun I am thinking of using this to mulch in with the piggy pooh for fertilizer, does it break down easily on it's own or does it need some extra help? I know the hay back in the UK can be resilient to say the least.

Thanks Pigsters.

Changers

[tingtong]

Hi

Thanks for all the thougths for Revar and IssanAussie.

I got answered between the 2 of you.

To be sure, right now we are not looking to make a living from pigs, but mostly a side income, and a little something to keep wife ( us, when i am at home) busy between the fish and some other trial projects.

As long as i am in the green with the numbers, i am happy.

There is use for the manure. Garden is big enough, and if i dont need to buy too much fertiliser, the better.

I know there is profit in the scale, kind a trying to figure out the right number, where the savings can make a % that worth to scale up a bit.

In our catfish trial, it was the point where we could go from 1-2 bag feed to 20 bags, about -5% on price, and then when could scale from the 20 to 60 bags in a single order...another 5% saving. added bonus is a free delivery to the farm too. i treasure free time, call it laziness, if you wish, but driving around here isnt that much fun usually for me.

Of course, fish biz. has lessons to teach us too, even though i learnt some very valueable things from RedBullHorn's posts there, we have a different approach, and i will have at least partially my own learning curve ( we sell direct retail, mainly cos i dont have any wholesale contacts and contracts).

We expect the same with pigs.

And as for the fish, it was 500, then 1000, then 10.000....

I am with Revar there, i dont like to jump in big till i cant at least have a better feel small(er).

So, probably the plan is something like 4-5-6 pigs maybe next? if we can get piglets around December; the aim would be April?songran time to sell about.

Also i want to see where is pigs the point when you can have some bargaining power....buying piglets, or feed.

In the fish, it seems that was around 10.000 fingerlings, or 1 ton of feed or about....

I am young still, less need to rush, more time to learn from mistakes, and still in work, so, have to keep in mind what my wife can manage when i am not around.

Ok, hope this gave a bit more explanation/background for those earlier questions.

Thanks for all the helpful comments.

tingtong

[IsaanAussie]

Changers,

For what is worth.

presently waste liquids are fed directly into the fish pond. Fish seem happy and growing well but my concern is when the season gets drier, I don't want a puddle of concentrated piggy pee.

Well that is what you will get if there isn't enough water in the pond. There is a number of things you can do. You can introduce a series on ponds to remove most nutrients before they go into the main pond. !st grows water hyacinth, 2nd water lettuce and 3rd duckweed. This would give you cleaner water in the main pond for the fish if you want to grow other than catfish that can breathe air if the oxygen level is too low. You could run the waste into a pit of biochar to capture the suspended solids before entering the pond.

As for feed I am going to split Jo-Jo and Balance between the batches of pigs and see if there is any difference in growth. Any of you porky pundits out there tried or measured this before?

Good luck. To get any meaningful results everything has to match up, you have to weigh the feed and the remainder and refusals, the sex and heritage of the groups has to be the same etc... even if you do that will the result maybe different with the next but different batch. Track the total of each grade of feed used for a batch and the total weight gain and the time to grow out. Time and cost to grow per pig but you will need to do it more than once.

I took a simple approach. Take a set of feed numbers per stage to reach the FCR figure you want. Start with the cheapest feed supplier available and run a batch. If you hit the mark first time, your done. If not spend a bit more. I started with Balance and have not changed since.

we have a few fields of rice straw basking in the sun I am thinking of using this to mulch in with the piggy pooh for fertilizer, does it break down easily on it's own or does it need some extra help?

In my case I compost the manure in a three box system. To be able to turn the compost the straw MUST be chopped (Doesnt apply to superman). Our rice straw is loaded with microbes, especially fungus including straw mushroom spores. I use a LAB probiotic, rice husks and CRH and add straw as well. As long as the straw is incorporated well it is decomposed within a week or two.

Add a bit more on this. I dont use much straw in the compost, it is too valuable for other things. If possible I grab the heaps of small stuff that everyone who thrashes their rice leave behind, perfect size and I bag that up ready to go. I use as much straw as needed to get the compost to the right weight on the pitch fork when turning it. I really have to show you this as it is a feel thing that develops with time and has to do with the aeration of the compost but hopefully you get my drift. The main straw pile i get bailed to store it.

Why is it so valuable? Let a bale rot in the open over the wet season and in its place you will have a half inch of top soil.

Edited November 5, 2012 by IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

Tingtong,

Understand your logic completely. As you point out RBH and I have different approaches. He built a simple sty and then improved on it whereas I when in for the Hilton approach simply because I planned to attract a different market. Any business must set objectives and strategies and I do not believe RBH or I have an advantage, just a difference.

There is one thing though to make your life easier. Get the pen size right for the number of pigs. If you do then they will all shit in the one spot and sleep in another. Cleaning is much easier.

[humblefalang]

Well its started, prices going up. October 30 numbers.

Ratchaburi 59.00. (+4.5).

Nakhon Pathom 59.00. (+4.5).

Chachoengsao. 57.50. (+3.5).

Chon Buri 57.50. (+3.5).

(north)East. 55.00. (+3).

Chiang Mai 61.00. (+5).

Sriracha. 57.50. (+3.5).

Surat Thani 55.00. (0).

Songkhla 56.00. (0)

how can this be right

no offence to you guys

the guy who comes get my pigs to the market says 47b

i live near khon kaen,

could i take them myself to a betagro slaughter house or am i missing something here

by the looks of it the key for the maximum profit possible,(the sale) price per kilo

[IsaanAussie]

Well its started, prices going up. October 30 numbers.

Ratchaburi 59.00. (+4.5).

Nakhon Pathom 59.00. (+4.5).

Chachoengsao. 57.50. (+3.5).

Chon Buri 57.50. (+3.5).

(north)East. 55.00. (+3).

Chiang Mai 61.00. (+5).

Sriracha. 57.50. (+3.5).

Surat Thani 55.00. (0).

Songkhla 56.00. (0)

how can this be right

no offence to you guys

the guy who comes get my pigs to the market says 47b

i live near khon kaen,

could i take them myself to a betagro slaughter house or am i missing something here

by the looks of it the key for the maximum profit possible,(the sale) price per kilo

Your middle man customer wants 8 baht per kg to resell your pigs. What dont you understand about that?

Yes you could take them to the slaughter house by arrangement, some will buy on sight, most handle stock for others on a per beast cost. That's why your guy wants the 8Baht, he knows the answer!

The figures I quoted come from the industry association and are collected nationally and averaged. Plenty close for me, but as in all things here, up to you!

[COXYATCITY]

Well its started, prices going up. October 30 numbers.

Ratchaburi 59.00. (+4.5).

Nakhon Pathom 59.00. (+4.5).

Chachoengsao. 57.50. (+3.5).

Chon Buri 57.50. (+3.5).

(north)East. 55.00. (+3).

Chiang Mai 61.00. (+5).

Sriracha. 57.50. (+3.5).

Surat Thani 55.00. (0).

Songkhla 56.00. (0)

how can this be right

no offence to you guys

the guy who comes get my pigs to the market says 47b

i live near khon kaen,

could i take them myself to a betagro slaughter house or am i missing something here

by the looks of it the key for the maximum profit possible,(the sale) price per kilo

humblefarang,.i sold 10 pigs today at 51 baht ,would have been 52 if they were bigger,(i had to sell them to pay the feed company) this is the best price i have had for a while from the sharks,still other people only want to pay 48 for now,try and find new buyers,and lets hope the price keeps rising,as most of us have been hit hard this year,with the price of pork and feed prices rising.

good luck

Ian.

[revar]

one thing to think about when deciding on feed. What is your market? I use pure betagro because I aim to get the maximum of red meat. There is a market for this and there are no other producers, which is why I can get good prices.Sunfeed or jojo is cheaper but results in more fat. Othetz in the village mix Betagro with Lam and get to 100 kg in 4 months but a lot is fat. So find out what your buyers want or where the opportunity lies.

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[revar]

Anybody knows a slaughterhouse in the dankhuntod, si kieuw area? or even khorat.

cant find any but also dont know how its called in.thai.

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[revar]

best tip for newbies is what IA said. get the pen size right for the amound of pigs. With 8-10 pigs in my 4*4 pens cleaninng takes a third of the time as when there are 13 pigs in them.

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[IsaanAussie]

Anybody knows a slaughterhouse in the dankhuntod, si kieuw area? or even khorat.

cant find any but also dont know how its called in.thai.

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Go ask the local Ag extension officer. There will be one "officially" in each district plus most of the roadside sellers slaughter pigs.

[IsaanAussie]

best tip for newbies is what IA said. get the pen size right for the amound of pigs. With 8-10 pigs in my 4*4 pens cleaninng takes a third of the time as when there are 13 pigs in them.

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best tip for newbies is what IA said. get the pen size right for the amound of pigs. With 8-10 pigs in my 4*4 pens cleaninng takes a third of the time as when there are 13 pigs in them.

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You really want to "spread things around" try just one or two pigs in the same space.

[IsaanAussie]

But you can train them.

"Pigs in a group like to be able to feel safe when using the toilet, bit like us. They have 300 degree vision so it is natural that for preference the will back up into a corner to feel safe" that or something close is what I was told. True at certain times but not always I have found.

If you have pigs not "going" where you would like, try heaping their manure where you want it and leaving it there a couple of times making sure the rest of the floor is clean. See what happens.

[revar]

Anybody knows a slaughterhouse in the dankhuntod, si kieuw area? or even khorat.

cant find any but also dont know how its called in.thai.

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Go ask the local Ag extension officer. There will be one "officially" in each district plus most of the roadside sellers slaughter pigs.

How are they called in thai?

the roadside sellers I know and also the market people. They all slaughter themselves. Since I am not yet slaughtering myself I would like to see if I can either sell to the slaughterhouse or get my pigs slaughtered an sell the meat. Just trying to find alternative markets. I have tried to ask through my wife but hit a dead wall there. The local saragorn local agriculture office also didn't help or understamd my question.

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[IsaanAussie]

This is an open forum so all I will say is there are Health Department regulations here that can be a problem simply because the approval process was not followed. Very much a blind eye, until a baht opens it.

Practically speaking you need to visit as many potential sources as you can and then decide which you want to use. I have 3 possibilities nearer to me but I would not house my pigs there let only butcher pigs for a five star restaurant. That includes the official district government slaughterhouse.

Is the one I use ideal? No but we are working on changing the last things that matter. Took me a year to find the best fit for me and strangely enough it was within a few hundred metres of where I first housed pigs.

As Walt said, "Its a small world after all"

[IsaanAussie]

On the subject of slaughtering pigs here in Thailand. The original scheme here was to allow a single agent in each district to handle the movement and processing of pigs beyond the village level. It was a smart move because to do it properly means a considerable investment. But competition and mimicry left slaughtering pigs with a lot of room for improvement here. Selling meat in hot markets is not ideal but is all there was. Tescos hadn't arrived. Cold stores didnt exist.

As much as we may talk about the agri-giants here regulating the industry to their own interests, in recent times it is their new investments in Isaan that will ultimately make the difference. Where else will you find a cold room hanging fresh kills through rigamortis prior to butchery let alone sale. I wish it was at my farm but it is as usual that one small step away from financial possibility right now.

[loong]

................., does anyone know what water lettuce and water hyacinth are called in Thai? This would be helpful to explain to my wife what I am trying to do .................

ผักตบชวา Puk dtop cha-wah - Water hyacinth

ดอกจอก Dawk jawk - Water Lettuce.

[IsaanAussie]

................., does anyone know what water lettuce and water hyacinth are called in Thai? This would be helpful to explain to my wife what I am trying to do .................

ผักตบชวา Puk dtop cha-wah - Water hyacinth

ดอกจอก Dawk jawk - Water Lettuce.

................., does anyone know what water lettuce and water hyacinth are called in Thai? This would be helpful to explain to my wife what I am trying to do .................

ผักตบชวา Puk dtop cha-wah - Water hyacinth

ดอกจอก Dawk jawk - Water Lettuce.

Try for duckweed and azolla as well

[loong]

Sorry I've no idea what duckweed and azolla are. I don't even have a clue what azolla is.

[loong]

Looked in dictionary, this is what it gives for duckweed

http://www.thai-language.com/id/147968

No entry for Azolla

[COXYATCITY]

one thing to think about when deciding on feed. What is your market? I use pure betagro because I aim to get the maximum of red meat. There is a market for this and there are no other producers, which is why I can get good prices.Sunfeed or jojo is cheaper but results in more fat. Othetz in the village mix Betagro with Lam and get to 100 kg in 4 months but a lot is fat. So find out what your buyers want or where the opportunity lies.

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Revar,your right for sure with jojo with fat content,as i used it for nearly 2 years,before i changed.and the results are much better,

[humblefalang]

one thing to think about when deciding on feed. What is your market? I use pure betagro because I aim to get the maximum of red meat. There is a market for this and there are no other producers, which is why I can get good prices.Sunfeed or jojo is cheaper but results in more fat. Othetz in the village mix Betagro with Lam and get to 100 kg in 4 months but a lot is fat. So find out what your buyers want or where the opportunity lies.

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Revar,your right for sure with jojo with fat content,as i used it for nearly 2 years,before i changed.and the results are much better,

sorry to jump in but

What is pure betagro

i mean i know of betagro and balance

i dont understand "pure betagro"

Thanks

[revar]

The company Betagro has several brands which include 'betagro' (green print on white bags),Balance, Be-lac, Farm, Amina and others.

The 'Betagro' feed is the most expensive and is used in the 'Betagro farms' If used in the right way you can get from 15 to 105 kilo in 125 days. These pigs will have a lot of red meat and notmuch fat. This is what I mean with pure Betagro.

Many small farmers in my area mix the feed with lam, corn or other ingredients. Some reach thw 100 kg in 4 months this way. But the pig will have less red meat and more fat.

In my area

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