Sawasdee Khrup, TV CM Friends,

We have a friend in the US who has been talking about coming here to study on an ED visa for several months, minimum, at the CM Whalen school, sometime later this year, or early next year.

With all of this ... uhhh ... "fallout" from what appears to be an "educational Chernobyl;" we feel the only reasonable advice to give her is to make no plans until next year.

Thoughts ?

thanks, ~o:37;

Personally, I have come from observing these evolutions involving CMU leadership feeling enormous distaste.

But I have not gathered a hint that other language schools are involved even at second hand. It was at the behest of CMU that programs and visas were stopped.

If one is happy to contemplate Walen, balancing its visa and schedule options against its price and pretty young women staff scheme of instruction (and has read the threads regarding language schools), I gather that it would serve as a sound ed.visa solution.

Moreover, a good season is all but upon us and at Walen one can schedule learning for two or three times each week, not five times weekly as with AUA<no visa anyway.

(Please do not read these notions as an endorsement of Walen as a school better qualified to teach Thai. Owner's commercial interest is a given, of course.)

Edited October 16, 201015 yr by CMX

My letter from Cmu said course finished on 30th October. What that is worth I don't know. I have personally been advised by "those who should know" to keep my head down and not get arrested by the police and to leave for another visa when convenient. So I am going to Walen as they appear to offer the convenience i need. In response to those who are less than enthusiastic about him or his courses, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and as I did say to him 'if they are less than professional it will certainly be posted''.. So we will see as i don't eat at Macdonalds

Regarding this whole mess with Cmu one needs to look into the mindset of the Thais. I don't think there was any desire or plan to cheat foreigners or students or whatever, no more so than usual that is. Rather a knee jerk reaction, Thai style to what was seen as a problem as has been hinted at in various posts, That as usual, was not thought out thoroughly and resulted in the usual cock up. So in order to get at one person they cause problems to many. They obviously don't think in terms of limiting collateral damage. Immigration are just following the regulations as they stand without any malicious intent, just doing there job.

In a previous life in the UK i worked with emotionally damaged people. That experience has helped me immensely in my dealings with Thai people and their culture. But that is another story

FYI, Chiang Mai Mail, Vol. IX No. 36:

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/current/letters.shtml

...Regarding this whole mess with Cmu one needs to look into the mindset of the Thais. I don't think there was any desire or plan to cheat foreigners or students or whatever, no more so than usual that is. Rather a knee jerk reaction, Thai style to what was seen as a problem as has been hinted at in various posts, That as usual, was not thought out thoroughly and resulted in the usual cock up. So in order to get at one person they cause problems to many. They obviously don't think in terms of limiting collateral damage. Immigration are just following the regulations as they stand without any malicious intent, just doing there job...

I agree with you.

Above is is a nicely refined outline from the University. One cannot too much admire the selection and orderly arrangement of facts presented.

Given the way the world works, the rule that "Might Makes Right" can only be challenged, these days, by the hopelessly romantic.

I'm going to become really irate about the University's actions just as soon as I get over the shame of being a citizen of the U.S., a native of the land that started a war in Iraq.

Put a fork in it already, this thread is done. I am surprised it went 4 pages. This thread seems to be going nowhere fast. Unless any new news about LICMU, I suggest this thread ends. Really getting redundant at this point.

I agree, this forum is akin to flogging a dead horse. There are only a couple of options as I see it.

1. If you have paid a deposit, as I have, pursue a refund through your bank.

2. If you were a current student, left out in the visa cold, I presume finding an alternative course is the ONLY option, plus pursuing a refund, via your bank. (and I am sincerely sorry that those students who suffered and were left hanging by a thread in the unknown), I was nearly one of them.

The rest of the information on this forum doesn't mean squat diddley when push comes to shove. Dr. Kay, Mr. Kay, who cares! Consulates/Emabassies are not interested. Nor were any media outlets up until the recent Chiang Mai mail articles...which will help????

The whole ordeal has been distressing for many, myself included, but I think it's time to let it rest and as individuals, do whatever it is we need to do!

Put a fork in it already, this thread is done. I am surprised it went 4 pages. This thread seems to be going nowhere fast. Unless any new news about LICMU, I suggest this thread ends. Really getting redundant at this point.

Yeah, it would be nice to "put a fork in it", but the problem still exists. Money isn't being refunded, people have lost their visas and retired people no longer have a way to "legally" contribute their time to the community while holding an O-A visa. Meanwhile over a hundred overseas universities have exchange programs where they accept CMU students on their campus. Unfortunately, we can't seem to get the our consulates/embassies interested in doing much of anything. All the American consulate told us to do was file with our credit card company (despite being past the time limit for filing) and not to jeopardize our O-A visas through volunteer activity. So far the only media interest seems to be from the Chiang Mai Mail and they didn't exactly do any hard-hitting investigative reporting, did they?

I appreciate the frustration of a couple of posters who are very singularly focused on very practical immediate "what now" issues, but closing this thread would only make more complicated keeping track of what is going on. One has to accept the diversity of different angles of interest. A plethora of threads won't get anyone anywhere.

I actually agree with NancyL and Mapguy. However there has been 3 pages of siderails and advertisements for other Thai language courses that have nothing to do with this issue.

NancyL, I think that you forget that the Language Institute is a private for profit entity that is attached to CMU. It is not CMU. It is not an international exchange program. The university students that participate in exchange programs with 100's of universities do so through their faculties. CMU has several international exchange programs and there are at least 200 international students from foreign universities studying at different faculties at CMU. These exchange programs have nothing to do with LICMU.

Programs get cancelled. That is all that happend at LICMU. (yes there are political and personal issues with the ex director and the current director and the newly formed IUS) However, LICMU decided to cancel all classes that were not controlled by them. Shouldn't a business have the choice to decide whether to keep a program or not?

LICMU isn't their to provide visas for expats or re-tirees.

LICMU clearly has decided to end many of the programs that they were not in control of and have to restructure their priorities and will continue some of the courses.

I do think that they could have done things with more tact and provide slightly more assistance but that was their choice.

It seems that those that paid with credit cards are doing ok, and the only ones that seem to still have issues are the ones that paid in cash or want some kind of revenge.

No consulate or embassy is going to get involved. This is a minor issue and since it is currently in a civil law suit, they cannot get involved until that is resolved.

If anyone has lost interest in this topic... please... stop reading it now, and don't check it again tomorrow, or the next day, etc, etc! When it's done its time it will sink to the bottom and expire naturally, like most other topics here. Meantime its a bit rude to impose your views by asking for it to be forcefully closed.

Certain consulates remain interested - their efforts need to observe correct protocol; these tings take time.

Many individuals, of course, have taken, and continue to take, action. Some of them were inspired by what they read in TV posts.

thaiboy999's post introduced some news only today, on a few fronts. The one that interests me is the letter from Matt Kay suggesting that his organisation is taking this to the court of small claims. That will be interesting to watch :-) Was this letter, or its longer version, actually sent to ex LICMU students?

Edit: original post dropped emoticon and subsequent text. Can't get emoticon back, but fixed the text. dam_n, I must be browsing from the sandbox again.

Edited October 16, 201015 yr by kawtot

I actually agree with NancyL and Mapguy. However there has been 3 pages of siderails and advertisements for other Thai language courses that have nothing to do with this issue.

NancyL, I think that you forget that the Language Institute is a private for profit entity that is attached to CMU. It is not CMU. It is not an international exchange program. The university students that participate in exchange programs with 100's of universities do so through their faculties. CMU has several international exchange programs and there are at least 200 international students from foreign universities studying at different faculties at CMU. These exchange programs have nothing to do with LICMU.

Programs get cancelled. That is all that happend at LICMU. (yes there are political and personal issues with the ex director and the current director and the newly formed IUS) However, LICMU decided to cancel all classes that were not controlled by them. Shouldn't a business have the choice to decide whether to keep a program or not?

LICMU isn't their to provide visas for expats or re-tirees.

LICMU clearly has decided to end many of the programs that they were not in control of and have to restructure their priorities and will continue some of the courses.

I do think that they could have done things with more tact and provide slightly more assistance but that was their choice.

It seems that those that paid with credit cards are doing ok, and the only ones that seem to still have issues are the ones that paid in cash or want some kind of revenge.

No consulate or embassy is going to get involved. This is a minor issue and since it is currently in a civil law suit, they cannot get involved until that is resolved.

You are totally wrong there LICMU is a fully controlled division of CMU.

"You are totally wrong there LICMU is a fully controlled division of CMU."

Really? Under what faculty? NONE.

It is not unlike the International Center also controlled by CMU but a private for profit entity. Many universities all over the world have for profit establishments that are connected to the University but are not affiliated with the actual matriculated system.

NancyL, I think that you forget that the Language Institute is a private for profit entity that is attached to CMU. It is not CMU. It is not an international exchange program.

That's a surprise. Why does the Director of LICMU report to the President of CMU? Why did our receipts have CMU letterhead? Why was the TEFL Certificate I received from LICMU signed by the President of CMU?

Programs get cancelled. That is all that happend at LICMU. (yes there are political and personal issues with the ex director and the current director and the newly formed IUS) However, LICMU decided to cancel all classes that were not controlled by them. Shouldn't a business have the choice to decide whether to keep a program or not?

Don't you think that canceling paid for classes and refusing to refund money is at the very least a breach of contract, if not fraud? And if the classes were not controlled by LICMU, how could they cancel them?

Edited October 16, 201015 yr by heybruce

Do a Google search on "Language Institute Chiang Mai University". The second search result from top of page is one whose URL contains chiangmai.ac.th which is official URL for Chiang Mai University. If you click on this and on the page that come up click on the Home button. This information is presented

BEGINNING OF QUOTE

The Language Institute, Chiang Mai UniversityOn August 23, 2003, the Chiang Mai University Council, as part of the proceedings of its sixth meeting, decided to establish the Language Institute as an autonomous organization under supervision of the university.It was decided that the main role of the Language Institute, CMU would be the development of foreignlanguages, learning potentials, and the overall communicative skills of its studentsand staff and the wider community. On September 3, 2004, Chiang Mai University initiated the regulations pertaining to the operation and objectives of the Language Institute, CMU.

END OF QUOTE

Okay, NancyL, I've read that (#106), too, but I'm not sure what that adds up to, really. For that, ultimately, one will have to rely on the small claims court which functioning thereof, I hazard to say, none of us here on TV CM has a clue! Otherwise, there seem to be all sorts of interesting issues of contract law. It would indeed be interesting to hear the legal arguments. Anyone, know where the Small Claims Court is, its calendar, all that sort of thing?

For those who are certain foreigners get screwed in Thai court because they are foreigners and are thus prejudiced against, I suggest that they know not of what they speak. From another perspective, how many foreigners are there who game the system such that they make others (such as NancyL's husband and other genuine students/volunteers who signed up with "IUS") vulnerable? Quite a few, I would guess.

What were the courses designed for anyway? To promote Thai language and culture; as for the volunteers, to pitch in to help less fortunate people. Where did all this stuff about Thai wives and girl friends, owning condos, come from ?! Get my drift?

Some posters focusing on concrete things like getting their money back have been impatient with my and other posters' opinions that more is involved. Their concern is certainly valid, but a larger question might be to ask why this happened and what to look out for in the future. That is, if you're not just buzzing through Chiang Mai. Many of us here are not just buzzing through town so we do care about what's going on perhaps somewhat more.

I happen to be among the skeptics who believe that there were contributing factors among all the parties concerned: university, direct management, and students/volunteers. I tend to get back to asking who thought these programs up and managed them directly?

So, what's next? Will someone post concrete information about the court, the case(s), et cetera. It is clear that some of the injured parties have been posting here.

And where is Kay, by the way? Anyone been traveling down Chiang Mai - Hang Dong Road these days and paid a visit?

For some who were only here for mainly a holiday- sounds like it turned out. Refund from credit card- meanwhile you already received a 1 Yr ED Visa for free... I know one who did not care and paid for the rent of his Condo for 6 months from his refund by the credit card company. No issues with ED Visa, as the stamp is there and cannot be removed.

So join a cheaper course and put in down to bad luck. Civil court wise if you overstayed- did not get Visa, out of pocket expenses- Good Luck.

The waiting list is very long and in reality it is not a lot of money. The court will feel you are being picky and it will simply cause you more stress.

CMU have needed to accept a bad rep over this and such is life with a back hander society.

Move on... after you try get as much costs back as possible from CMU- once again good luck. CMU has always been over rated.

Yet a great library... many better specialist schools for Farangs however.

If anyone has lost interest in this topic... please... stop reading it now, and don't check it again tomorrow, or the next day, etc, etc! When it's done its time it will sink to the bottom and expire naturally, like most other topics here. Meantime its a bit rude to impose your views by asking for it to be forcefully closed.

People ask for topics to be closed all the time. Why would this one any different?

If anyone has lost interest in this topic... please... stop reading it now, and don't check it again tomorrow, or the next day, etc, etc! When it's done its time it will sink to the bottom and expire naturally, like most other topics here. Meantime its a bit rude to impose your views by asking for it to be forcefully closed.

People ask for topics to be closed all the time. Why would this one any different?

And then when they close, they ask mods why they closed them

Okay, NancyL, I've read that (#106), too, but I'm not sure what that adds up to, really. For that, ultimately, one will have to rely on the small claims court which functioning thereof, I hazard to say, none of us here on TV CM has a clue! Otherwise, there seem to be all sorts of interesting issues of contract law. It would indeed be interesting to hear the legal arguments. Anyone, know where the Small Claims Court is, its calendar, all that sort of thing?

For those who are certain foreigners get screwed in Thai court because they are foreigners and are thus prejudiced against, I suggest that they know not of what they speak. From another perspective, how many foreigners are there who game the system such that they make others (such as NancyL's husband and other genuine students/volunteers who signed up with "IUS") vulnerable? Quite a few, I would guess.

What were the courses designed for anyway? To promote Thai language and culture; as for the volunteers, to pitch in to help less fortunate people. Where did all this stuff about Thai wives and girl friends, owning condos, come from ?! Get my drift?

Some posters focusing on concrete things like getting their money back have been impatient with my and other posters' opinions that more is involved. Their concern is certainly valid, but a larger question might be to ask why this happened and what to look out for in the future. That is, if you're not just buzzing through Chiang Mai. Many of us here are not just buzzing through town so we do care about what's going on perhaps somewhat more.

I happen to be among the skeptics who believe that there were contributing factors among all the parties concerned: university, direct management, and students/volunteers. I tend to get back to asking who thought these programs up and managed them directly?

So, what's next? Will someone post concrete information about the court, the case(s), et cetera. It is clear that some of the injured parties have been posting here.

And where is Kay, by the way? Anyone been traveling down Chiang Mai - Hang Dong Road these days and paid a visit?

I'm not 'just buzzing through Chiang Mai', but I have no desire to be further involved with this mess. If any farang involved are willing to fight this in court, I salute you!

The fact is that CMU has severed my goodwill toward the institution by taking money then refusing to talk to me. It makes no difference to me whose bank account the funds were transferred to. My issue is that the people at LICMU refuse to speak to me regarding this matter. It's created a distrust for CMU as a whole that I'm afraid will never go away. I've found another institution in CM that seems to treat foreigners very well and I couldn't be happier studying there.

However, I'd still love to find out the real story of what happened, which is why I'm still following this thread

I think this horse is dead. :cheesy::cheesy::cheesy:

It appears the majority of people posting at this point have never been involved in LICMU and have little or no real information on this topic. It amazes me how eager people are to publicly display their uninformed opinions on a subject, almost as if they are proud of their ignorance.

If you have no interest in this thread, stop reading it and definitely stop posting on it. The thread is intended for people affected by the fiasco at LICMU, and should only have postings of credible, pertinent information.

The latest I heard, from one of the teachers at LICMU, is that the CMU vice president vetoed the idea of having students who wish to continue studying pay half the wages of their teacher, and the situation is being reconsidered. I don't think anyone knows whether this means students can continue to study without paying anything additional, or that classes will not be continued, or if some other arrangement will be tried.

It appears the majority of people posting at this point have never been involved in LICMU and have little or no real information on this topic. It amazes me how eager people are to publicly display their uninformed opinions on a subject, almost as if they are proud of their ignorance.

If you have no interest in this thread, stop reading it and definitely stop posting on it. The thread is intended for people affected by the fiasco at LICMU, and should only have postings of credible, pertinent information.

The latest I heard, from one of the teachers at LICMU, is that the CMU vice president vetoed the idea of having students who wish to continue studying pay half the wages of their teacher, and the situation is being reconsidered. I don't think anyone knows whether this means students can continue to study without paying anything additional, or that classes will not be continued, or if some other arrangement will be tried.

Hey! Bruce!

How about re-reading your own stuff before you press the button?

Like, er, your first para here and your last 4+ lines......?

Specifically, I agree. Let's not 'rush into print' unless we have something new and/or helpful to share.

Hmmm?

It appears the majority of people posting at this point have never been involved in LICMU and have little or no real information on this topic. It amazes me how eager people are to publicly display their uninformed opinions on a subject, almost as if they are proud of their ignorance.

If you have no interest in this thread, stop reading it and definitely stop posting on it. The thread is intended for people affected by the fiasco at LICMU, and should only have postings of credible, pertinent information.

The latest I heard, from one of the teachers at LICMU, is that the CMU vice president vetoed the idea of having students who wish to continue studying pay half the wages of their teacher, and the situation is being reconsidered. I don't think anyone knows whether this means students can continue to study without paying anything additional, or that classes will not be continued, or if some other arrangement will be tried.

Hey! Bruce!

How about re-reading your own stuff before you press the button?

Like, er, your first para here and your last 4+ lines......?

Specifically, I agree. Let's not 'rush into print' unless we have something new and/or helpful to share.

Hmmm?

My intent in the first paragraph was to discourage people with no interest in this thread from cluttering it with irrelevant posts. As you have just demonstrated, I did not achieve my intent.

The last four lines are a status I received from a teacher who attended a meeting with the LICMU Director and the Vice President of CMU. I consider the information appropriate considering the topic of this thread is "Latest developments at the CMU Thai course".

So, why did you post? Are you a LICMU student or employee? Do you have useful information to offer? Do you have anything at stake? If not, stop cluttering threads on serious matters and start your own thread for whatever it is you want to say.

Edited October 17, 201015 yr by heybruce

Khun Bruce!

Lighten up!

It seems you might have quite a personal stake in this. Fair enough, but there's more to consider. Please read on. Eventually I might get to one or more decent points!

I gather, from reading some posts about the ILCMU mess and of some posters' more than general interest therein, that some posters might be youngish teachers in town trying to make do. I hope it is working out well for them, but I hope they don't expect too much. Very tight market for truly qualified and experienced teachers. And that includes a lot more than just holding a first degree in whatever it might be!

It seems that part of the formula previously practiced at ILCMU was hiring some people and paying them much more than the "going rate." I surmise this from previous posts. "Eager to resume teaching," are they? No doubt. Making a living at standard pay rates around here is a huge challenge.

There should be genuine sympathy for honest students and those enrolled in the volunteer program (not people gaming the system) who got caught in the middle of all this.

About CMU, I'd be cautious about tarring the university with too thick a brush. Did CMU get caught with its pants down ?! Perhaps. I haven't the foggiest as to how the university will finally react. I can only offer the gratuitous observation that when lawyers get involved, things get more complicated than they might need to be! Sometimes, there are better than legal solutions. It really isn't any different than I have experienced elsewhere around the world. I believe "This is Thailand (TIT)" posts are simply silly. If you don't, well, either acculturate or go "home."

The entrepreneur who started the programs in question seems to be a very persuasive and very nice person who worked up a good formula for an educational business but perhaps missed a couple of important aspects of good management. He certainly has a few proxies posting for him on TV Chiang Mai threads.

I don't think things will work out okay for everyone, but I hope things work out okay for the really vulnerable genuine participants in the programs in question; that is, the people made vulnerable by others gaming the system and the lack of oversight at all levels. For the slackers, well, I've heard the beer and discos in Belize are quite nice and cheap. Nice beaches, too!

On a broader note, it is really unfortunate that Thailand has been identified over the years as a place where people can come to just "swing their thing." Indeed, shouldn't they do that where they came from? Why should this lovely land be such a magnet for "gap year" students, attenuated youth "finding themselves," economic basket cases, more than a few perverts, and the occasional international arms smuggler from abroad!

Cheers!

MG

Khun Bruce!

Lighten up!

It seems you might have quite a personal stake in this. Fair enough, but there's more to consider. Please read on. Eventually I might get to one or more decent points!

I gather, from reading some posts about the ILCMU mess and of some posters' more than general interest therein, that some posters might be youngish teachers in town trying to make do. I hope it is working out well for them, but I hope they don't expect too much. Very tight market for truly qualified and experienced teachers. And that includes a lot more than just holding a first degree in whatever it might be!

It seems that part of the formula previously practiced at ILCMU was hiring some people and paying them much more than the "going rate." I surmise this from previous posts. "Eager to resume teaching," are they? No doubt. Making a living at standard pay rates around here is a huge challenge.

There should be genuine sympathy for honest students and those enrolled in the volunteer program (not people gaming the system) who got caught in the middle of all this.

About CMU, I'd be cautious about tarring the university with too thick a brush. Did CMU get caught with its pants down ?! Perhaps. I haven't the foggiest as to how the university will finally react. I can only offer the gratuitous observation that when lawyers get involved, things get more complicated than they might need to be! Sometimes, there are better than legal solutions. It really isn't any different than I have experienced elsewhere around the world. I believe "This is Thailand (TIT)" posts are simply silly. If you don't, well, either acculturate or go "home."

The entrepreneur who started the programs in question seems to be a very persuasive and very nice person who worked up a good formula for an educational business but perhaps missed a couple of important aspects of good management. He certainly has a few proxies posting for him on TV Chiang Mai threads.

I don't think things will work out okay for everyone, but I hope things work out okay for the really vulnerable genuine participants in the programs in question; that is, the people made vulnerable by others gaming the system and the lack of oversight at all levels. For the slackers, well, I've heard the beer and discos in Belize are quite nice and cheap. Nice beaches, too!

On a broader note, it is really unfortunate that Thailand has been identified over the years as a place where people can come to just "swing their thing." Indeed, shouldn't they do that where they came from? Why should this lovely land be such a magnet for "gap year" students, attenuated youth "finding themselves," economic basket cases, more than a few perverts, and the occasional international arms smuggler from abroad!

Cheers!

MG

Sorry, no decent points, nothing pertinent to the topic, nothing useful that I can discern, just vague opinions and generalities.

You're right, I do have an interest in this matter. TV and e-mail lists were a useful source of information, but they are being hi-jacked by people who have no useful information but can't resist sharing useless opinions, wisecracks, and prejudices. Now the people who find the entertainment value waning want the thread closed, as opposed to being kept on-topic. Don't these people have better things to do?

Once again, the title of this thread is "Latest Developments At Cmu Thai Course". This is a subject of great interest to some people, and the hi-jackers/spammers annoy me. If you have nothing better to do with your time, you are sadly lacking in imagination. Leave this thread on a serious topic to people with a serious interest in the subject and useful information to share.

As one who is involved in this fiasco i sincerely hope the thread remains open, as it appears to be the only way to get any up todate information. Even if one has to wade through a lot of extraneous detail.

Why those who are not involved wish to close it is beyond me as they just dont have to read this thread. It is a great shame that too many people here are pontificating about other matters and are so self opinionated.

The whys and wherefores of who might or might not be a doctor I dont care about and the reasons for what has happened dont really matter now as the deed is done. The resultant mess has been caused by innapropriate actions by Cmu and is really unforgivable. For what it is worth, Cmu did receive money from foreigners for courses and have not returned it after cancelling them.

I personally hope that those with some relevant information or experiences regarding the latest developments at Cmu continue to post here until there is nothing left to say.

Today I navigated to the Chiang Mai University web site. I have no involvement with this problem personally. As soon as the web site opened a pop-up appeared relating to the apparent problems.

MSPain

Today I navigated to the Chiang Mai University web site. I have no involvement with this problem personally. As soon as the web site opened a pop-up appeared relating to the apparent problems.

MSPain

Could you be more specific about this website as at the risk of appearing more stupid than what i am i cannot find it.