Usa Irs Question, Penalties For Failure To File If You Owe Nada

[Jingthing]

I got a 2009 extension but I am a horrible procrastinator and thought it was until end of Oct, but actually it's 15 Oct. I don't think I will make the deadline now. I won't owe any taxes. I know the penalties are bad for failure to file if you owe money, but since I won't owe money, I think there won't be any penalties based on a quick google. Does that sound correct, any IRS heads? Of course I will file, but probably late now.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Jingthing

[Bkk71]

The return must be postmarked on or before the due date. Late filing and late payment are separate fines but as long as you meet the postmark date there is no fine. There's also the online filing option.

[Jingthing]

The return must be postmarked on or before the due date. Late filing and late payment are separate fines but as long as you meet the postmark date there is no fine. There's also the online filing option.

Right, but non-filing fines as far as I can tell are based on money owed, so if you don't owe anything, I think no fine. Actually, I don't think I even need to file at all based on total income, but I do file because some reported transactions like stock sales are seen by IRS as pure profit unless you report the actual profit.

[PoeDogg]

No fine, but after 3 years they can block or take the money out of any accounts your have, put liens on your properties, and refuse you a passport the next time you go to renew.

Or at least that is what the letter the IRS sent me said.....I didn't test them and filed my 2007 tax returns; guess I need to start on my 2008 & 2009 returns.

Oh, and if you file late, no direct deposit. The check would have to be mailed to you.

[Declan]

bkk71 has it spot on

[Doc50]

The return must be postmarked on or before the due date. Late filing and late payment are separate fines but as long as you meet the postmark date there is no fine. There's also the online filing option.

Right, but non-filing fines as far as I can tell are based on money owed, so if you don't owe anything, I think no fine. Actually, I don't think I even need to file at all based on total income, but I do file because some reported transactions like stock sales are seen by IRS as pure profit unless you report the actual profit.

I did not file 2003-2008, only stock sales no income. I moved USA address, IRS never forwarded to correct address. IRS came after me an attached 15% per month of my Social security check. The fact I did not owe anything did not matter. I traded stock and that is considered as profit unless you file and prove otherwise. Took 13 months to clear up the mess and get my money back from IRS. *&*#@ the IRS.

[Jingthing]

The return must be postmarked on or before the due date. Late filing and late payment are separate fines but as long as you meet the postmark date there is no fine. There's also the online filing option.

Right, but non-filing fines as far as I can tell are based on money owed, so if you don't owe anything, I think no fine. Actually, I don't think I even need to file at all based on total income, but I do file because some reported transactions like stock sales are seen by IRS as pure profit unless you report the actual profit.

I did not file 2003-2008, only stock sales no income. I moved USA address, IRS never forwarded to correct address. IRS came after me an attached 15% per month of my Social security check. The fact I did not owe anything did not matter. I traded stock and that is considered as profit unless you file and prove otherwise. Took 13 months to clear up the mess and get my money back from IRS. *&*#@ the IRS.

Yeah, sadly, that sounds like the issue I am concerned about. They do see stock sales as all profit if you don't file, etc. and the penalties then would be based on the worse case scenario of the taxes they say you owe, even though you don't really owe, if you filed.

[jsflynn603]

Nope no fine, as long as they owe you, and you don't owe them a cent you're safe. No late fee for not filing--however eventually they are apt to pester you.

The form of pestering (if it happens) will be a request for the tax forms for the year.

If the prior several years were no tax, and little income, you may simply get nothing--ever.

However if during the year in question you earned a small amount, but in prior years you earned a lot--you are apt to be pestered.

Beware of holding or having foreign investment. All income in the Universe, even if it was a one satang dividend from the Thai company that just set up a mining rig on Mars, must be reported. The IRS Gods can be very testy on this, and they are using a lot of force to require banks and companies to withhold an inordinate amount. I really don't know a lot about it, but if you hold foreign investments, be very careful about reporting requirements.

The IRS take on late fees, penalties, interest, etc. is so mypopic that let's say a criminal type failed to report 50,000 US$ on purpose. But said criminal in filling out the annual tax form accidentally overstated one of his other "out-in-the-open" companies by 50,000 US$, and this error was found during investigation. The investigation will be closed--there is no crime--even if the criminal clearly intended to cheat.

[taxout]

[redacted]

Edited October 9, 2010 by taxout

[Jingthing]

Update now. Well, the deadline cured my procrastination and I was able to file in time. I did have a complicated issue this time and did the best I could with it, so wouldn't be surprised if I get audited this time (if so, first time ever), so look forward future posts about getting audited, ha ha.

Anyway, the main reason I am posting now is to mention taxact.com which I used to efile for the first time. Previously from Thailand, I have filed by paper. For the basic efiling of federal (state returns would be extra) it is a free service and they have no problem with using a foreign address (other programs will not let you efile with that). So in that sense, I can certainly recommend taxact if you aren't using it already.

On a related question, one of the reasons I efiled this time was a question about postmarks. Are Thai postmark dates accepted for IRS purposes? For example if you post 14 April (normal deadline) from Thailand and it doesn't get to the US for three days, is the Thai postmark accepted as being on time?

Edited October 13, 2010 by Jingthing

[cloudhopper]

I can highly recommend the people at -

http://www.us-taxpayers.com/

for those expats who prefer to get their tax advice from professionals.

[taxout]

The IRS accepts official foreign postmarks as evidence of timely filing.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/0012085.pdf

[bikerlou47]

I just went through this,,,,I did not file for the years 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

I received a notice that I owed a whole lot of money but in reality i actually did owe about 2000 USD from 2005 no taxes were due for the other years I think my penalty was under 100 bucks,

If you owe no money there is no penalty, but it is a good idea to file anyway and I will do so in the future just to save myself from any aggravation

[Jingthing]

The reason I file is that it could easily LOOK like I make a lot more money than I do, based on stock sales. So it is definitely in my best interest show those sales only for the capital gains part, rather than the gross sales price. For many people without issues like that, if you are under the reporting threshold income level, there really is no legal need to file at all.

[moe666]

This year I was late filing, I also sent a check for money owed. I have not recieved a notice or any thing else from Irs about impending doom. If I do get a fine I will pay and move own, my fault 100% and will not waste my time over what I have no control over.

Jing I think a few days late no problem.

[Jingthing]

This year I was late filing, I also sent a check for money owed. I have not recieved a notice or any thing else from Irs about impending doom. If I do get a fine I will pay and move own, my fault 100% and will not waste my time over what I have no control over.

Jing I think a few days late no problem.

Define late. If you filed a bit after 15 April and you hadn't filed for an extension, I don't think you were late because my understanding is that expats get some amount of automatic extension (not till 15 October though) anyway. Taxheads will confirm/deny.

[Tywais]

Define late. If you filed a bit after 15 April and you hadn't filed for an extension, I don't think you were late because my understanding is that expats get some amount of automatic extension (not till 15 October though) anyway. Taxheads will confirm/deny.

You have until June 15 to file if an expat. However, any monies due have to be paid on or before the April 15 date or interest will apply. I know, it happened to me this year as I assumed the 60 day extension for filing included paying amounts owed. Received a letter from IRS and was sure it was in error until I read the instruction booklet more closely.

[Jingthing]

Yes, thanks for the information and of course the difference between payment deadline and filing deadline.