Ties With Cambodia Strained Over Militant Red-Shirts

[webfact]

Ties with Cambodia strained over reds

By The Nation

Phnom Penh denies Bangkok claim red warriors got weapons training in Siem Reap; NSC backs up DSI findings

Thailand and Cambodia have found their newly restored relations at another highly delicate juncture after a Thai police investigation revealed militant red shirts were allegedly trained in Siem Reap.

The Cambodian government yesterday denied that red militants had been trained on its soil to carry out acts of terror in Thailand, while in Bangkok the government tried to cushion the impact on bilateral ties by saying Phnom Penh leaders had no policy of supporting such alleged training.

The bombshell allegations were made by the Department of Special Investigation on Monday and backed up by the National Security Council (NSC) yesterday.

Cambodian Information Minister Khieu Kanharith said his country would receive no benefit from either sheltering or training red militants, while the spokesman's office for the Cambodian government said the report was a fabrication, and that giving weapons training to foreigners was against its constitution.

A statement released yesterday by the spokesman's office claimed the allegation was a Thai government plan to undermine the red-shirt movement for political gain. "It's a nonsense that Cambodia would want to have problems with anyone for no reason," the statement said.

The Department of Special Investigation (DSI) cited interviews with 11 men accused of seeking weapons training, who were arrested recently at a Chiang Mai resort. And it released details of similar weapons training for another 24 men in Cambodia.

DSI director-general Tharit Phengdit said yesterday details about Cambodia's training of some 39 red militants needed further verification.

Media reports cited different numbers of red militants becoming active after completion of weapons courses they attended, either in Thailand or elsewhere. The total number mentioned is 64 overall, with four allegedly assigned as bodyguards for wanted militant Arisman Pongruengrong.

Details from interviews with the 11 men, who have sought protection with the DSI and given much more information, will forwarded to the government's Centre for Resolution for the Emergency Situation (CRES). It will then decide how to deal with the issue, with advice from the Foreign Ministry.

Spokesman Panitan Wattanaya-gorn said Cambodia's denial about weapons training was being verified, but the issue would be discussed between Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and his counterpart Hun Sen at the 17th Asean meeting in Vietnam on October 28-30. He said Hun Sen had pledged to look into the matter to determine "how credible it could have been" after he met with Abhisit at the Asia Europe Meeting in Brussels on October 4 and 5.

Panitan said the Brussels meeting had a good atmosphere and both leaders made an unofficial pledge to exchange intelligence tip-offs about criminals from one country fleeing to the other.

He said the weapons training courses included bomb-making, demolition, use of firearms and grenade launchers, and given only to successful candidates.

The CRES was keeping a close watch on hard-core red-shirt groups. "Security officials will keep pressuring them to prevent them from being fully active," he added.

NSC secretary-general Thawit Pliansri had confirmed the DSI's intelligence report about the red

militants receiving weapons training in Cambodia

Justice Minister Pirapan Sali-rathavibhaga said more details were being gathered to verify that Arisman had been linked to the weapons training before Thailand decides whether to ask Cambodia to extradite him to face indictments here.

-- The Nation 2010-10-13

[Thailand]

Could all this be a sophisticated windup to add yet another embarrassment to the current government?

Lots of hearsay and sort of confirmed reports. "DSI director-general Tharit Phengdit said yesterday details about Cambodia's training of some 39 red militants needed further verification."

[craigt3365]

Its a well known fact some of the reds on the run are hiding there. Even Thaksin was there for some time. And those 2 involved with a previous bomb were caught in the casino there. So not much of a stretch to think training could happen there.

[OzMick]

Could all this be a sophisticated windup to add yet another embarrassment to the current government?

Lots of hearsay and sort of confirmed reports. "DSI director-general Tharit Phengdit said yesterday details about Cambodia's training of some 39 red militants needed further verification."

No. Any embarrassment to the govt is far out weighed by that to the Redshit movement because:

1/ cambodians are not well liked by the people of Isaan (a generalization, but still true.)

2/ it makes liars of PTT and their supreme leader who have been calling for reconciliation

3/ it adds further proof to the claims that the recent bombing campaign is the work of the Redshit movement

The NSC states it s information confirms that of the DSI.

"It's a nonsense that Cambodia would want to have problems with anyone for no reason," the statement said.

Probably a translation or ESL problem, but this is not the same as "......... that Cambodia would want to have problems with anyone for any reason."

[chantorn]

We should inform the world not to visit Siam Reap for 2 reasons:

1. Training ground for violence separatist to cause bomb and death in a friendly, loving & forgiving neighbor country (Thailand).

2. Angkor Wat is a competition to our Grand Palace "Wat Phra Kaew"; and I heard many dishonest people make up stories to rip of tourist at the entrance of Angkor Wat.

[Thai at Heart]

Its a well known fact some of the reds on the run are hiding there. Even Thaksin was there for some time. And those 2 involved with a previous bomb were caught in the casino there. So not much of a stretch to think training could happen there.

It isn't that much of a stretch, but it is just a hel_l of an accusation which had better be correct and provable. Knowingly hosting foreign fighters for training could be construed as an act of war, so before you make the accusation, you had better be prepared for the response from whomever you accuse.

[RedNIvar]

We should inform the world not to visit Siam Reap for 2 reasons:

1. Training ground for violence separatist to cause bomb and death in a friendly, loving & forgiving neighbor country (Thailand).

2. Angkor Wat is a competition to our Grand Palace "Wat Phra Kaew"; and I heard many dishonest people make up stories to rip of tourist at the entrance of Angkor Wat.

Move words around a little bit and it sounds just the same.

We should inform the world not to visit Bangkok for 2 reasons:

1. Many violence separatist to cause bomb, arson and death.

2. Grand Palace "Wat Phra Kaew" is a competition to Angkor Wat; and I heard many dishonest people make up stories to rip of tourist at the entrance of Grand Palace "Wat Phra Kaew".

[dru2]

Its a well known fact some of the reds on the run are hiding there. Even Thaksin was there for some time. And those 2 involved with a previous bomb were caught in the casino there. So not much of a stretch to think training could happen there.

It isn't that much of a stretch, but it is just a hel_l of an accusation which had better be correct and provable. Knowingly hosting foreign fighters for training could be construed as an act of war, so before you make the accusation, you had better be prepared for the response from whomever you accuse.

What nonsense. Even more fatuous than your usual Red Shirt drivel.

[Cuchulainn]

Don't these shit- thick, pig-ignorant scummy pieces of shit know that 'Siem Reap' in Khmer means 'Siam defeated'?

[chantorn]

Don't these shit- thick, pig-ignorant scummy pieces of shit know that 'Siem Reap' in Khmer means 'Siam defeated'?

I think it is 'Siem defeated' and not 'Siam defeated' . Anyone know where is Siem ? Maybe somewhere in Laos (just guessing).

[Thai at Heart]

Its a well known fact some of the reds on the run are hiding there. Even Thaksin was there for some time. And those 2 involved with a previous bomb were caught in the casino there. So not much of a stretch to think training could happen there.

It isn't that much of a stretch, but it is just a hel_l of an accusation which had better be correct and provable. Knowingly hosting foreign fighters for training could be construed as an act of war, so before you make the accusation, you had better be prepared for the response from whomever you accuse.

What nonsense. Even more fatuous than your usual Red Shirt drivel.

Nothing of the sort. I am not pro-red shirt. If you want to go around accusing your neighbours of harboring and training foreign armies/terrorists, it is a serious accusation. It was only a few months ago that the armies were sitting looking at each other at gunpoint at Praer Viharn. I would think this discussion is held through diplomatic channels first before the media get hold of it. Is the reason for saying these things to stop terrorists being trained in Cambodia, or to inflame the issue?

So, instead of several confused statements from several different agencies along with the wonderful caveat of "DSI director-general Tharit Phengdit said yesterday details about Cambodia's training of some 39 red militants needed further verification", I would suggest that before you cause a diplomatic mess, you get all of your ducks very clearly in a row.

Of course, if you don't care that you may inflame your neighbour without clear and unequivocal evidence of your accusation, feel free to speak without considering the consequence.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[Cuchulainn]

'Siem' is the Khmer name for Siam (or modern day Thailand). Thailand was sacked by both the Khmers and the Burmese during the 11th - 12th centuries, however, I don't think you'll find great detail in any Thai history book

Do you want me to teach you anything else about Thailand??

[chantorn]

I think DSI got the wrong country. The militans might be trained in Pakistan. You know where to search for this news. I am not allowed to post the link. Hint, the other English paper in Thailand.

15 Pakistanis probed for terrorist link

Irregular bank transfer sparks police inquiry

[hammered]

There are two types of military training in a neighbouring country:

1. Official training by the government which is a direct beligerant act

2. Using a quiet location for some training which is not official but organised by a private group either of nationals of the host country or of non-nationals

It is likely the second is what is happening. At the moment the level of training doesnt seem to be very high judging from the random acts of bombing and the way those involved are easily captured or blow themselves up.

[asiawatcher]

We should inform the world not to visit Siam Reap for 2 reasons:

1. Training ground for violence separatist to cause bomb and death in a friendly, loving & forgiving neighbor country (Thailand).

2. Angkor Wat is a competition to our Grand Palace "Wat Phra Kaew"; and I heard many dishonest people make up stories to rip of tourist at the entrance of Angkor Wat.

Correct on both counts - and... Hun Sen's newest best friend Abhisit can be thankful the knife between his shoulder blades from his counterpart whilst holding his mate, Thaksin's hand shake, puts HS in the usual position of playing both off and whilst looking to be the winner. Snake or Hun Sen? Trust the snake...

[OzMick]

There are two types of military training in a neighbouring country:

1. Official training by the government which is a direct beligerant act

2. Using a quiet location for some training which is not official but organised by a private group either of nationals of the host country or of non-nationals

It is likely the second is what is happening. At the moment the level of training doesnt seem to be very high judging from the random acts of bombing and the way those involved are easily captured or blow themselves up.

The text in a previous thread actually quoted "trained at an army camp in Cambodia." If they are trained by serving members of the Cambodian military at a army installation, it is a serious matter indeed, but may not be with the knowledge of the govt. A little private deal with some general perhaps. Do you really expectt to turn out the equivalent of SAS or Green Berets after a couple of weeks in Cambodia? Have you considered the raw materials the trainers have to work with? To quote Stephen King, "You can't polish a turd!"

[Portlandstone]

This is almost hilarious, if it weren't all so frustrating. First Thailand and Cambodia were at each others throats with Cam supporting Thaksin. Then for the last many weeks it's announced "all is patched up" and the future is bright and rosy between THAI-CAM. Now this.

Truth is the only thing each country even cares about is power and rightousness(sp) over the other. When a Thai in power doesn't get everything their way, they let all hel_l loose and make a big fuss. Gone are the old days when Thais just smiled.

[whybother]

There are two types of military training in a neighbouring country:

1. Official training by the government which is a direct beligerant act

2. Using a quiet location for some training which is not official but organised by a private group either of nationals of the host country or of non-nationals

It is likely the second is what is happening. At the moment the level of training doesnt seem to be very high judging from the random acts of bombing and the way those involved are easily captured or blow themselves up.

The text in a previous thread actually quoted "trained at an army camp in Cambodia." If they are trained by serving members of the Cambodian military at a army installation, it is a serious matter indeed, but may not be with the knowledge of the govt. A little private deal with some general perhaps. Do you really expectt to turn out the equivalent of SAS or Green Berets after a couple of weeks in Cambodia? Have you considered the raw materials the trainers have to work with? To quote Stephen King, "You can't polish a turd!"

I'd suggest that the "army camp" in the report was a bit of journalistic licence. It was probably just some hut in the jungle that the red shirts were using for red shirt "army training".

[animatic]

Its a well known fact some of the reds on the run are hiding there. Even Thaksin was there for some time. And those 2 involved with a previous bomb were caught in the casino there. So not much of a stretch to think training could happen there.

It isn't that much of a stretch, but it is just a hel_l of an accusation which had better be correct and provable. Knowingly hosting foreign fighters for training could be construed as an act of war, so before you make the accusation, you had better be prepared for the response from whomever you accuse.

Knowingly might be the operative catch here.

Certainly it is possible that they were training there,

and not necessarily obviously with any high up Cambodians having a say in it.

Easy enough to pay enough to keep the local security guys quiet.

[Buchholz]

Thailand’s MCOT state news agency and the Bangkok Post quoted Thai government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn as saying that Abhisit would “seek clarification” on the matter from Hun Sen when the two attend a meeting of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations in Hanoi later this month.

Cambodian officials say Prime Minister Hun Sen will “absolutely not” discuss allegations that anti-government activists from Thailand received weapons training in Cambodia during a meeting later this month with Thai premier Abhisit Vejjajiva.

The Phnom Penh Post - October 12, 2010

[Thai at Heart]

Its a well known fact some of the reds on the run are hiding there. Even Thaksin was there for some time. And those 2 involved with a previous bomb were caught in the casino there. So not much of a stretch to think training could happen there.

It isn't that much of a stretch, but it is just a hel_l of an accusation which had better be correct and provable. Knowingly hosting foreign fighters for training could be construed as an act of war, so before you make the accusation, you had better be prepared for the response from whomever you accuse.

Knowingly might be the operative catch here.

Certainly it is possible that they were training there,

and not necessarily obviously with any high up Cambodians having a say in it.

Easy enough to pay enough to keep the local security guys quiet.

Indeed. Knowingly or unknowingly does make some difference. Getting it stopped is then the issue.

Hence why it is often better to conduct this type of discussions diplomatically first, instead of having it released in the media. It is obvious the issue is being used more to stir up cross border rhetoric than actually trying to constructively achieve anything. It is bad enough washing your own dirty laundry in public. Pointing out the sh*t stains in your neighbours undies isn't likely to result in a good outcome, and could even cause a punch up.

Other than causing a furore with a neighbour, what constructive benefit did releasing this information actually achieve?

[OzMick]

Its a well known fact some of the reds on the run are hiding there. Even Thaksin was there for some time. And those 2 involved with a previous bomb were caught in the casino there. So not much of a stretch to think training could happen there.

It isn't that much of a stretch, but it is just a hel_l of an accusation which had better be correct and provable. Knowingly hosting foreign fighters for training could be construed as an act of war, so before you make the accusation, you had better be prepared for the response from whomever you accuse.

Knowingly might be the operative catch here.

Certainly it is possible that they were training there,

and not necessarily obviously with any high up Cambodians having a say in it.

Easy enough to pay enough to keep the local security guys quiet.

Indeed. Knowingly or unknowingly does make some difference. Getting it stopped is then the issue.

Hence why it is often better to conduct this type of discussions diplomatically first, instead of having it released in the media. It is obvious the issue is being used more to stir up cross border rhetoric than actually trying to constructively achieve anything. It is bad enough washing your own dirty laundry in public. Pointing out the sh*t stains in your neighbours undies isn't likely to result in a good outcome, and could even cause a punch up.

Other than causing a furore with a neighbour, what constructive benefit did releasing this information actually achieve?

It may well amount to a cease and desist or consider the consequences.

[animatic]

Then again, telling your neighbor that your wild kid and his wild kid

are doing something BAD together in his garage, that might hurt both families,

is often welcomed.

[Thai at Heart]

Then again, telling your neighbor that your wild kid and his wild kid

are doing something BAD together in his garage, that might hurt both families,

is often welcomed.

Maybe yes. Maybe no.

Parents pointing out the failings of other's children is often not well received unless there is unequivocal evidence.

Either way, screaming out to the neighbourhood about your neighbours failings isn't often the best way to achieve cordial discussion.