Debit Card Fraud Farce

[theoldgit]

I find it odd that the same bank (K-Bank) has two different verification proceedures for the same cards with different owners.

That's the bit I find strange/odd, but if it works for you and works for me no problem.

[Tokay]

Surely the goldshop owner would not be that stupid....

Are you making a funny?

You can never make such a comment about this place, because YES, they can be that stupid.

[473geo]

How do you guys think people buy over the internet?....you don't give out your pin if you buy an airline ticket with your card do you?....most machines have 'customer not present' option which given the card details can be utilised, no need for pin number.

[jfchandler]

Seriously, considering the place we live, why should the gold shop care one whit???

They want to sell their product and get their money.... And considering the way Thai banks operate, the shop is going to keep the purchase funds they received pretty much no matter what, and the cardholder is going to be an unreimbursed victim of fraud....

Given the current system regarding bank card fraud in Thailand, it's not in the shop's interest to make any effort to verify the person presenting the card is legit...

[Spoonman]

How do you guys think people buy over the internet?....you don't give out your pin if you buy an airline ticket with your card do you?....most machines have 'customer not present' option which given the card details can be utilised, no need for pin number.

A K-Bank Visa debit card (which is what the meat of this thread is about) generally cannot be used for any kind of online purchases, hence K-Bank also have a K-Web "shopping card"...

[Wallaby]

In Australia, ALL eftpos (debit) transactions require a PIN. They NEVER require a signature. This has been the case for over 10 years in Australia.

It appears that Thailand has some work to do BEFORE they get close to being considered a 2nd world country.

I will not use any eftpos (debit) unless I use my PIN. I will refuse to sign any document on a DEBIT payment (fear of forged signature).

Better tell that to the shops I visit in Brisbane then. I can use my debit card also as a credit card ie: no pin required, just sign away.

[Spoonman]

Better tell that to the shops I visit in Brisbane then. I can use my debit card also as a credit card ie: no pin required, just sign away.

Just to clarify your talking about a visa debit card or a normal debit card.

[elcent]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

Sorry I used the wrong term, It was an eftpos transaction, I have always refered to them as direct debit.

The cards from K-Bank dont have chip and pin like the UK, they actualy dont even put your name on the card only the words "Privileged Member" something I never liked I would rather wait a few days and have your name stamped on it like the UK. They have your sig on the back but it is a common observation that staff in oultets dont look at the sig a majority of the time.

It certainly stinks, but probably not enough to do me any good.

KBank gives you always an option, either with privileged member or with your name AND picture on it. This takes about 5 days before you can pick it up or have it sent to your mailbox.

I also use online shopping card from KBank and must say I have never had any problem. There they wait for 3 days before they debit the account. Recently I have had a problem with online shopping (goods/service were not as described) . KBank sends you a mail with info and that you can stop debiting the account with 3 days which I did. I also seller vis online mioney transfer service and threatened them with a charge back. The money was back within hours.

Not sure, but I think a "charge-back" should also work for debit cards with VISA service. This is something most fear when it comes to charge-backs, because they have 3 to 5 times and then lose their account with the credit card company and then cannot get any payment with VISA cards any longer.

Your case should be clear and when the bank sends that to VISA they sure will initiate a charge back and the shop owner may lose his account too.

[ozzieovaseas]

How do you guys think people buy over the internet?....you don't give out your pin if you buy an airline ticket with your card do you?....most machines have 'customer not present' option which given the card details can be utilised, no need for pin number.

A K-Bank Visa debit card (which is what the meat of this thread is about) generally cannot be used for any kind of online purchases, hence K-Bank also have a K-Web "shopping card"...

Yes, at first glance the K-web shopping card sounds reasonably secure since you have to log onto your internet banking account to get a seperate account number and cvv that they issue you when you apply for the card.

I have just applied and recieved all the info but this being Thailand im a still a little shy to activate the card with the first transaction until i absolutely need to.

Just as an aside, i cant figure why the bank promotes this service as a "shopping card" when there is actually no physical card issued.

This must confuse a lot of punters who might be used to getting a card issued for them to pick up at bank or arrange to get sent through the mail and then to activate it at a later date..

Just to make it more confusing, the link to the "k-shopping" card actually has a picture beside it of what must be a "virtual" card that doesnt even exist!!!

At least i hope it doesnt exist, otherwise my new card is probably floating around Isaan somewhere with some lucky punter waiting for me to activate it.

[elcent]

How do you guys think people buy over the internet?....you don't give out your pin if you buy an airline ticket with your card do you?....most machines have 'customer not present' option which given the card details can be utilised, no need for pin number.

You can use verify by VISA for free and you have up to three days to cancel the transfer when you use online shopping card.

[elcent]

How do you guys think people buy over the internet?....you don't give out your pin if you buy an airline ticket with your card do you?....most machines have 'customer not present' option which given the card details can be utilised, no need for pin number.

A K-Bank Visa debit card (which is what the meat of this thread is about) generally cannot be used for any kind of online purchases, hence K-Bank also have a K-Web "shopping card"...

Yes, at first glance the K-web shopping card sounds reasonably secure since you have to log onto your internet banking account to get a seperate account number and cvv that they issue you when you apply for the card.

I have just applied and recieved all the info but this being Thailand im a still a little shy to activate the card with the first transaction until i absolutely need to.

Just as an aside, i cant figure why the bank promotes this service as a "shopping card" when there is actually no physical card issued.

This must confuse a lot of punters who might be used to getting a card issued for them to pick up at bank or arrange to get sent through the mail and then to activate it at a later date..

Just to make it more confusing, the link to the "k-shopping" card actually has a picture beside it of what must be a "virtual" card that doesnt even exist!!!

At least i hope it doesnt exist, otherwise my new card is probably floating around Isaan somewhere with some lucky punter waiting for me to activate it.

it's a VC card (virtual shopping card)

[Spoonman]

With the K-Bank visa debit cards that everyone seems to use without pin numbers can they be set up so that when the card is used you get an SMS to your phone just like you do with the K-Bank credit card, you would then atleast know if there is activity on your card.

[elcent]

With the K-Bank visa debit cards that everyone seems to use without pin numbers can they be set up so that when the card is used you get an SMS to your phone just like you do with the K-Bank credit card, you would then atleast know if there is activity on your card.

You get an email when the transfer is initiated with a note to be able to cancel the transfer with all the details (online shopping). After three days past you get another note telling you that the account has been debited now.

When you use verified by visa you need to provide a special pin that can be changed for each transaction.

I think that everybody should apply for online banking(this is separate from VC card and it is obligatory when you want a VC card), otherwise you can use it to check your account, transfer money and pay bills etc. This way you can check the status of your bank accounts anytime you choose (24/7).

[Spoonman]

VC As in Visa credit, is that the visa debit card or the visa credit card ??

either way I have both and online banking was not an obligatory thing for either accounts, infact it was a pain in the ass to set them up afterwards (pain as in 3 visits to the bank to sort).

I do have and use the K-Bank online banking facility (its actually pretty dam_n good, sending money offshore to my Aussie accounts is a breeze), a farang work colleague who has the same cards as me does not.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Spoonman

[elcent]

VC As in Visa credit, is that the visa debit card or the visa credit card ??

either way I have both and online banking was not an obligatory thing for either accounts, infact it was a pain in the ass to set them up afterwards (pain as in 3 visits to the bank to sort).

I do have and use the K-Bank online banking facility (its actually pretty dam_n good, sending money offshore to my Aussie accounts is a breeze), a farang work colleague who has the same cards as me does not.

it depends on your account. If you have a credit card you can use VC in connection with your credit card account otherwise it's debit(saving account)

The online banking account is only obligatory when you use a Virtual shopping card( VC).

[Spoonman]

ok so the VC is the web shopping card and not the physical Visa Debit or Visa credit card.

[travelmann]

How do you guys think people buy over the internet?....you don't give out your pin if you buy an airline ticket with your card do you?....most machines have 'customer not present' option which given the card details can be utilised, no need for pin number.

Not if u use "verified by visa" then you have to enter pin number

[elcent]

ok so the VC is the web shopping card and not the physical Visa Debit or Visa credit card.

yes, that's what it means. Virtual means no hard copy, just a number is applied.

[bangkockney]

Handle it the thai way, tell the gold shop owner you are going to press charges if he doesn't hand over the money.

Simple

Greg

^^^ This.

Most disputes are settled with (the threat of) litigation it seems.

Seems you have enough to go on already to take the retailer to court. Have you asked your lawyer about this approach?

Given your "farang lawyer" is so doom and gloom, have you approached another?

[KeyserSoze01]

Surely the goldshop owner would not be that stupid....

Are you making a funny?

You can never make such a comment about this place, because YES, they can be that stupid.

More likely the case that the Gold shop owner or one of his employees were in on the scam. My experience is that many Thais act stupid, while in fact are very cagey and experienced in ripping people off.

Part of the reason I NEVER use a CC in Thailand, or any other country that is known for CC fraud. SEA is known for this type of thing, so if you don't use the cards, you can't get scammed. Only place I'll use a card in Thailand is in an ATM machine. Oddly enough, Malaysia is numero uno on the list of countries rife with CC fraud.

[bangkockney]

Part of the reason I NEVER use a CC in Thailand, or any other country that is known for CC fraud. SEA is known for this type of thing, so if you don't use the cards, you can't get scammed. Only place I'll use a card in Thailand is in an ATM machine. Oddly enough, Malaysia is numero uno on the list of countries rife with CC fraud.

All Credit Cards are covered for fraud, you will get a refund of the money.

Debit Cards, unless visa debit, do not have this automatic protection. It is at the discretion of the issuing bank.

And, ATMs can be one of the most dangerous places to use your card - your details can be skimmed and your pin recorded.

Edited October 22, 2010 by bangkockney

[KeyserSoze01]

^ Not if you only use the ATM cards at a bank location. Risk is greatly reduced. I do agree that using an ATM at a Mom & Pop location is a high risk endeavor.

Yes, most CC / Debit cards have automatic fraud protection up to their limit, but this does you little good if your card(s) have been compromised and you are out of you home country traveling, after which your CC's get shut off, leaving you in a pickle. Don't ask me how I know!

[aka_jack]

Ive had thoughts about this too and asked my mrs what would happen if my card was skimmed at the atm and my account emptied, she didnt know so went to the bank to ask, they said you wouldnt get your money back even if they found the atm tampered with ! What a joke !

[bangkockney]

^ Not if you only use the ATM cards at a bank location. Risk is greatly reduced. I do agree that using an ATM at a Mom & Pop location is a high risk endeavor.

Yes, most CC / Debit cards have automatic fraud protection up to their limit, but this does you little good if your card(s) have been compromised and you are out of you home country traveling, after which your CC's get shut off, leaving you in a pickle. Don't ask me how I know!

Inside the bank is safest, yes. Any machine outside is still open to tampering.

I too have been victim, not in Thailand but back in the UK.

And it was a debit card too, yet the bank clearly saw there was no way I could have had anything to do with it, so returned all the money. They did however, try to charge me crazy fees for being overdrawn without authorisation

[scorecard]

A little off topic but probably worth mentioning.

The Bank of Thailand issued a regulation about three years back which requires that when you use a credit card the slip that comes out of the machine must show your card number as follows:

XXXX XXXX XXXX 1234

In other words only the last 4 digits can be printed.

The Bank of Thailand also issued a regulation, at the same time, which says that merchants cannot record your full card number in any other manner.

Reason? Obviously to try to seriouly reduce theft of credit card numbers.

The bottom line is that many merchants still print the 16 digits on the credit card slip that they ask you to sign.

I have challenged many merchnats about this including two very high profile home products companies. They refuse to do anything about it saying it's too difficult. I also checked whether it is difficult to program their machine which spits out the slip. It's not, takes two seconds and requires no advanced knowlwsge of any sort.

Just recently I was with my adult son at a high profile car maintenance outlet, my Thai son gave his credit card to pay for the services and the machine printed all 16 numbers. My son queried this and was simply abused by the 18 year old loud mouth cashier girl. Additionally she had quickly pulled a small notepad from her purse and had writen down the 16 digits.

We contacted the police who did come to the shop and indicated that they would investigate. In front of the police my son insisted strongly that the shop reverse the credit card transaction and that they give him all copies of every slip that had been printed and insisted that the police allow him to rip uop the page of the girl's notepad. The police agreed. Meantime my daughter in law went to an ATM and they paid cash for the services.

Just as we getting in the car two technicians came over and said 'thank you'.

[scorecard]

Handle it the thai way, tell the gold shop owner you are going to press charges if he doesn't hand over the money.

Simple

Greg

^^^ This.

Most disputes are settled with (the threat of) litigation it seems.

Seems you have enough to go on already to take the retailer to court. Have you asked your lawyer about this approach?

Given your "farang lawyer" is so doom and gloom, have you approached another?

Agree, there are 'different quality' farang lawyers here in Thailand. One of them recently got into a dogfight here on ThaiVisa with some TV members who simply queried what he was saying, he quickly threatened to sue them. I'll stay with my very credible Thai lawyer thanks.

[jfchandler]

Scorecard, thanks for that interesting and informative post about the BOT policy re XXXing out all but the last four digits of credit/debit card numbers on printed transaction slips... I hadn't been aware there was a national policy on that....

I checked my recent card slips, and found all of them had the XXXs on them. But, likewise, I'm sure in the recent past I've received slips where the entire number was printed....and I scratched my head and wondered when I saw that...thinking it's a lousy thing to do...

But more broadly, on the cards' fraud protection features, indeed, VISA USA does have what they call a zero fraud policy...though that's backed up by a U.S. federal law that governs reimbursement in cases of fraud.

However, when I go to the VISA web site for Asia, which includes Thailand, I see absolutely no similar reference. And, after finding that, I just called the VISA International customer service number, and a CSR rep. told me the policy outside the U.S. is up to the local bank...

There is no VISA-based zero fraud liability policy for VISA-logo credit or debit cards issued by banks in Thailand. And guess what the Thai banks' fraud policy is???

SCREW YOU!!!

[Spoonman]

And guess what the Thai banks' fraud policy is???

SCREW YOU!!!

Do you have a source for this policy or are you just talking out your ass ??

[473geo]

A little off topic but probably worth mentioning.

The Bank of Thailand issued a regulation about three years back which requires that when you use a credit card the slip that comes out of the machine must show your card number as follows:

XXXX XXXX XXXX 1234

In other words only the last 4 digits can be printed.

The Bank of Thailand also issued a regulation, at the same time, which says that merchants cannot record your full card number in any other manner.

Reason? Obviously to try to seriouly reduce theft of credit card numbers.

The bottom line is that many merchants still print the 16 digits on the credit card slip that they ask you to sign.

I have challenged many merchnats about this including two very high profile home products companies. They refuse to do anything about it saying it's too difficult. I also checked whether it is difficult to program their machine which spits out the slip. It's not, takes two seconds and requires no advanced knowlwsge of any sort.

Just recently I was with my adult son at a high profile car maintenance outlet, my Thai son gave his credit card to pay for the services and the machine printed all 16 numbers. My son queried this and was simply abused by the 18 year old loud mouth cashier girl. Additionally she had quickly pulled a small notepad from her purse and had writen down the 16 digits.

We contacted the police who did come to the shop and indicated that they would investigate. In front of the police my son insisted strongly that the shop reverse the credit card transaction and that they give him all copies of every slip that had been printed and insisted that the police allow him to rip uop the page of the girl's notepad. The police agreed. Meantime my daughter in law went to an ATM and they paid cash for the services.

Just as we getting in the car two technicians came over and said 'thank you'.

Machines can be set up to print two slips - merchant copy containing the full card details, and a customer copy showing xxxx xxxx xxxx 1234 - would that fall within the Thai ruling, and if one did not know this, would one just accept on receiving a customer copy that the merchant copy is the same?

As far as visa verify goes - yes on the internet you will be required to verify your pin, but at a merchant machine where customer not present is used you do not require a pin.......only details held on the card....this is why you can make a payment over the telephone if you wish.......

Of course things may operate differently in Thailand I do not have a Thai card so perhaps speaking out of turn.....

[greyfriarsbobby]

A little off topic but probably worth mentioning.

The Bank of Thailand issued a regulation about three years back which requires that when you use a credit card the slip that comes out of the machine must show your card number as follows:

XXXX XXXX XXXX 1234

In other words only the last 4 digits can be printed.

The Bank of Thailand also issued a regulation, at the same time, which says that merchants cannot record your full card number in any other manner.

Reason? Obviously to try to seriouly reduce theft of credit card numbers.

The bottom line is that many merchants still print the 16 digits on the credit card slip that they ask you to sign.

I have challenged many merchnats about this including two very high profile home products companies. They refuse to do anything about it saying it's too difficult. I also checked whether it is difficult to program their machine which spits out the slip. It's not, takes two seconds and requires no advanced knowlwsge of any sort.

Just recently I was with my adult son at a high profile car maintenance outlet, my Thai son gave his credit card to pay for the services and the machine printed all 16 numbers. My son queried this and was simply abused by the 18 year old loud mouth cashier girl. Additionally she had quickly pulled a small notepad from her purse and had writen down the 16 digits.

We contacted the police who did come to the shop and indicated that they would investigate. In front of the police my son insisted strongly that the shop reverse the credit card transaction and that they give him all copies of every slip that had been printed and insisted that the police allow him to rip uop the page of the girl's notepad. The police agreed. Meantime my daughter in law went to an ATM and they paid cash for the services.

Just as we getting in the car two technicians came over and said 'thank you'.

Machines can be set up to print two slips - merchant copy containing the full card details, and a customer copy showing xxxx xxxx xxxx 1234 - would that fall within the Thai ruling, and if one did not know this, would one just accept on receiving a customer copy that the merchant copy is the same?

As far as visa verify goes - yes on the internet you will be required to verify your pin, but at a merchant machine where customer not present is used you do not require a pin.......only details held on the card....this is why you can make a payment over the telephone if you wish.......

Of course things may operate differently in Thailand I do not have a Thai card so perhaps speaking out of turn.....

You do not (should not) be using your pin on the internet ,or anywhere other than POS Chip and PIN and ATMs. On all other occassions you should be using the VCC or three digit security code (the last three numbers of the seven digit security code) on the back of your card printed on the signature strip.

Verify by Visa (VbyV) is an additional, optional, security messure which you set up with your issuing bank (although it may appear to you on the web sight as if you are doing it with the web site). Soem outlets use it, some will not let you carry out a transaction without it. Outlets who insist on VbyV usually allow 3 purchases before they insist on VbyV use

NEVER use your PIN except at POS and ATM. If you do disclose your your PIN in this way your card issuer will not refund any losses.