This Quick Fix For Thai Schools Is Failing Our Children

[way2muchcoffee]

I must disagree. A high school diploma and good English speaking skills will earn a person as much as double the salary of someone without the credential and language skill. Not only will the salary be higher but the working conditions will be much more pleasant/comfortable. This may be limited to Bangkok but there it is. Who wouldn't be happier with twice the pay and better working conditions?

What is a "high school diploma"? The one from the American education system? That is good enough to become a English teacher here and no higher or real education required? And the other dudes don't even have that kind of "diploma". OMFG.

Get a grip SergeiY. We are talking about Thai people learning the English language and the employment benefits that are accrued to them in the Thai workplace.

Edited October 21, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[animatic]

If only a mandatory 3 months in Korea or Japan was forced on ALL Thai teachers, so they could see how those two ASIAN cultures have dealt with Face and the education of their students. It likely would be eye opening.

Edited October 21, 2010 by animatic

[animatic]

cessive

I must disagree. A high school diploma and good English speaking skills will earn a person as much as double the salary of someone without the credential and language skill. Not only will the salary be higher but the working conditions will be much more pleasant/comfortable. This may be limited to Bangkok but there it is. Who wouldn't be happier with twice the pay and better working conditions?

What is a "high school diploma"? The one from the American education system? That is good enough to become a English teacher here and no higher or real education required? And the other dudes don't even have that kind of "diploma". OMFG.

Get a grip SergeiY. We are talking about Thai people learning the English language and the employment benefits that are accrued to them in the Thai workplace.

Mr. Excessive Coffee is 100% correct.

And a simple BA degree from a 2 year state uni

will triple that starting salary from the High School diploma.

Edited October 21, 2010 by animatic

[tomyummer]

Why, oh why should Thai children learn Chinese first?

To better be able to help China?

The English language is more or less the world language, even in China this is recognised.

Knowing Chinese gives one the possibility to do things with China and Chinese

With English it is possible to do business with nearly the whole world.

Maybe it is because that by the time that they grow up China (the PRC) will have the largest and most important economy on the planet. Once upon a time French was the dominant language and one can still see historical traces of that bygone era in the international postal system. Today French is a minor language. The English language only became dominant with the colonial rule of Britannia and later the American Empire. Well the sun did set upon the British Empire and the sun is about to set far more precipitously upon the American Empire as my local yankee lemmings head for the cliff. And there is little doubt that within 20 years, or sooner, the Chinese Empire will be dominant. So why not teach them Chinese? Once the dollar (and other western currencies) drops back down to about 15 baat most of the neo-sahibs and other ex-pats won't be around to talk to. But the

language issue is not the critical issue in Thai schools and as long as the government fears people who are capable of critical thought nothing will change as the ruling elite is quite happy with the local lemming mentality.

Thanks. You hit it right on the head.

I wish it wasn't so, but as China has been 'sleeping' for the past century or so, the dragon has started to wake up and will pick-up where it left off before its last slumber. Who is probably now one of the largest 'owners' of the U.S. (on its way to becoming the next 3rd world country)? China.

So yes, I think that learning Chinese is about right. Follow Singapore and teach both English and Chinese in schools.

[SergeiY]

I must disagree. A high school diploma and good English speaking skills will earn a person as much as double the salary of someone without the credential and language skill. Not only will the salary be higher but the working conditions will be much more pleasant/comfortable. This may be limited to Bangkok but there it is. Who wouldn't be happier with twice the pay and better working conditions?

What is a "high school diploma"? The one from the American education system? That is good enough to become a English teacher here and no higher or real education required? And the other dudes don't even have that kind of "diploma". OMFG.

Get a grip SergeiY. We are talking about Thai people learning the English language and the employment benefits that are accrued to them in the Thai workplace.

Well, jayjay0 "Teaching English would keep some of them out of the bars thats about it." comment was about the idea that some foreign retirees or veterans of american wars 'could' 'teach' English on a voluntary base and not about the future job of some Thai students. ...

[sirchai]

I am an expat British retiree, I am also a qualified science teacher with experience of teaching English as a foreign language, I would like to offer my services for free to local schools but when I read my retirement visa rules I find that I cannot, even if I work for free I still need a work permit.

I have met many Thai teachers of English, I once was a guest at a conference of such, most could just about manage to hold down a job at the checkout of my local supermarket in England.

Excactly my thoughts.The Thai English teachers haven't had the right training to teach English.The majority of Foreign English teachers are here because otherwise they can't survive living in Thailand,not because they are qualified teachers.

Maybe true, but in my experience this does not make up the majority. I have found that the majority (slight) of ESL teachers actually do care about what they are teaching the kids, not forgetting the adults.

It's true that that the majority of foreign English teachers is here to survive. They all have to find their own ways to teach, and many are really outstanding what they're doing, learning by doing the job.

We should never forget so many Thai English teachers who're really very qualified in what they're doing.

It's so nice when the majority of students and Thai colleagues really like what you're doing. It's worth more than money can buy.

Of course are there some caring ESL teachers, but too many don't have any experience in teaching English as you can see in so many posts. :jap:

[SergeiY]

If only a mandatory 3 months in Korea or Japan was forced on ALL Thai teachers, so they could see how those two ASIAN cultures have dealt with Face and the education of their students. It likely would be eye opening.

yawn.

Maybe you should relocate if you cannot accept it that its different here.

[SergeiY]

It's true that that the majority of foreign English teachers is here to survive. They all have to find their own ways to teach, and many are really outstanding what they're doing, learning by doing the job.

...

Yes, many foreign teachers are actually not qualified to teach. Nothing to be proud of.

[way2muchcoffee]

I must disagree. A high school diploma and good English speaking skills will earn a person as much as double the salary of someone without the credential and language skill. Not only will the salary be higher but the working conditions will be much more pleasant/comfortable. This may be limited to Bangkok but there it is. Who wouldn't be happier with twice the pay and better working conditions?

What is a "high school diploma"? The one from the American education system? That is good enough to become a English teacher here and no higher or real education required? And the other dudes don't even have that kind of "diploma". OMFG.

Get a grip SergeiY. We are talking about Thai people learning the English language and the employment benefits that are accrued to them in the Thai workplace.

Well, jayjay0 "Teaching English would keep some of them out of the bars thats about it." comment was about the idea that some foreign retirees or veterans of american wars 'could' 'teach' English on a voluntary base and not about the future job of some Thai students. ...

Apoligies SergeiY. I didn't get all of jayjay0's quote in, in particular the part I was responding to. Your reaction was understandable. My mistake and a sincere apology for the not so nice retort I made to your post.

Edited October 21, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[sirchai]

My experience here is that students have been learnt to read and speak some English,but have no idea what the words mean. I think the system need over hauling and the losing face is the big issue, teachers do not want to be shown up for not coming up with the goods. But hold on I have been speaking English for 60 years, dont expect to be as good as me, now how can I help you?

I was taken by a local senator to a school where I am living, I offered to come along and help with conversational English, a group just sit around and chat, that was a month ago, no one has got back to me. I think its the losing face thing, lets not put the students first.

Please do put them first and I can help you a couple of hours a week free.

Um, please for give me, but if you do decide to teach English, then I am sure that you will have to take a serious look at grammar, or maybe I was 'taught' in a different way than back in your day.

Please for give me when I'm asking you where you'd your education at, especially the English language? :jap:

[canuck1941]

Teaching is something like hockey: It isn't as easy to get the puck out of the corner as it looks.

Too many people know nothing about teaching, much less learning, even something that appears as simple as conversation. "It's just talk, eh. No probs."

How many ever made a single lesson plan or planned a curriculum or even have an idea what they are going to do the class after next and why? Can you listen to a speaker of whatever age or gender, diagnose his difficulty, and proscribe a course of corrective action or know where to go to get it? For instance, the student continually mispronouces a cluster of consonants--can you recognize that and give him some exercises to overcome it?. Stuff like that. Stuff that you don't necessarily learn in a quickie tefl course. But don't let me dissuade you from getting involved. If it isn't you in the class, it may be no one.

Count yourself lucky if in your educational career, which essentially never ends, you meet one good teacher. That's all it takes, one good teacher to make one big difference.

Once I addressed a large audience of Thai parents and I told them the most imporant thing in the success of their child's educational career at the high school was not the teacher, not the school but the direct personal interest they showed in the child's school work.. "The more attention you give to your child's education, the smarter he or she becomes."

My next favourite quote from Aristotle: Man's greatest pleasure is learning. Think about it.

Edited October 22, 2010 by canuck1941

[chmiroau]

My experience here is that students have been learnt to read and speak some English,but have no idea what the words mean. I think the system need over hauling and the losing face is the big issue, teachers do not want to be shown up for not coming up with the goods. But hold on I have been speaking English for 60 years, dont expect to be as good as me, now how can I help you?

I was taken by a local senator to a school where I am living, I offered to come along and help with conversational English, a group just sit around and chat, that was a month ago, no one has got back to me. I think its the losing face thing, lets not put the students first.

Please do put them first and I can help you a couple of hours a week free.

Um, please for give me, but if you do decide to teach English, then I am sure that you will have to take a serious look at grammar, or maybe I was 'taught' in a different way than back in your day.

Please for give me when I'm asking you where you'd your education at, especially the English language? :jap:

Um, clearly at a different school than you, no insult intended.

Please guys, if you are going to write a comment concerning English, please, at least try to re-read what you have written. If it sounds wrong then it probably is.

Books people. Read lots and lots of books, and choose them carefully. I have found that more than often good books are fanatically checked for correct grammar. This is always a good start for the English student.

But there are exceptions to the above rule. I have found many typo's and grammar mistakes in ESL books. This is probably because to publish an ESL book in Asia, you dont really need to have any special qualifications. So asking "Please for give me when I'm asking you where you'd your education at, especially the English language?" has to be accepted as very poor teaching for three reasons.

1/ Not paying enough attention to details when teaching in the first place.

2/ Not correcting the mistake as soon as it is made.

3/ The student may believe that they already know enough English and simply just turn off in class and chat in Thai.

Having said that, this losing face thing does no one any good when they screw things up and then try to correct someone else, as above.

Sometimes you have to get things wrong, and be told that you have it wrong, so that you can LEARN by the mistake.

[anterian]

The English language has the most extensive vocabulary of any language in the world, last time I checked it was about 1.05 million words, not counting technical words, and increasing by several thousands per year.

A limited vocabulary limits one's ability to think, particularly in the area of abstract thought, if the word for a concept does not exist is is difficult or impossible the employ this concept.

I have checked with numerous educated people, both Asian and European, they all tell me that they can think and reason best in English, indeed often they have problems translating their thoughts into their native tongue, the words simply do not exist.

Here is an old joke to demonstrate what I mean (don't take it literally:rolleyes:)

The UN decided to conduct a worldwide survey to address food shortage and asked each country:

" Please give us your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world"

They realised the survey was not as easy as they thought as there were lots of queries about the question itself:

In Africa they had no idea what "food" meant.

In Western Europe they no idea what "shortage" meant.

In South America they had no idea what "please" meant.

In the Middle East they had no idea what "solution" meant.

In various parts of Asia they had no idea what "honest" meant.

In Singapore they had no idea what "opinion" meant.

And in the USA they had no idea what "the rest of the world" meant.

[mark45y]

About Thais speaking Chinese as opposed to English.

1.Chinese is more difficult to master.

2.The INTERNET has far more content in English.

3.There are far more books written in English.

4.The repository of knowledge currently is in English.

During the heyday of the Roman Empire the scholars were required to learn Greek because the knowledge of the world was stored in the Greek language.

Even up to a 100 years ago scholars were required to read Greek as well as Latin.

English today is the Greek of the ancient world.

[jayjay0]

Teaching English would keep some of them out of the bars thats about it.

I must disagree. A high school diploma and good English speaking skills will earn a person as much as double the salary of someone without the credential and language skill. Not only will the salary be higher but the working conditions will be much more pleasant/comfortable. This may be limited to Bangkok but there it is. Who wouldn't be happier with twice the pay and better working conditions?

It would enable a lot of them to work in the bars to get the big money. That is for a Thai and they are not limited to Bangkok. My wife is going to school here in Chiang Mai to learn English and there is a lot of girls from the bars and massage parlors taking it.

I repeat teach Chinese it will have the same ability to raise the standard of learning as teaching English. The OP stated that schools are failing our children and all most of the nimrods on this thread can do is talk about is teaching English. Makes me wonder if the educational system didn't fail people in other countries. oOr if they just plain didn't read the article and are jumping on the band wagon.

Just out of curiosity do you think if the US wasn't trying to be the savior of the world English would be such a big thing.

Edited October 22, 2010 by jayjay0

[animatic]

If only a mandatory 3 months in Korea or Japan was forced on ALL Thai teachers, so they could see how those two ASIAN cultures have dealt with Face and the education of their students. It likely would be eye opening.

yawn.

Maybe you should relocate if you cannot accept it that its different here.

Maybe you should continue on to sleep like a good little muffin.

[animatic]

My child is learning Thai, English, Chinese and just started French,

plus the regular course load. No one cuts any slack, learn and move on,

but learn first and foremost or don't move on.

Tests are to find how you are doing and find where you need to work harder.

Not to make teacher happy that their class average looks good on paper, nor make mommy and daddy scared that a pass won't happen. The point is not face saved, but knowledge applied practically.

I told the teachers, 'no class bell curves or grading on a curve,

just honest assessments of progress', nothing more or less.

Edited October 22, 2010 by animatic

[Arkady]

As usual government chooses to address red herrings on the peripheries of the real issue which is: 1) the extremely low quality of teaching and of the curriculum in Thai schools in general; and 2) the rural/urban and socioeconomic divide in education. While the best private schools for wealthy Chinese kids who can afford the tea money are just rote learning factories by international standards, the government schools are much worse as the teachers are often barely educated themselves. Village schools are at the bottom of the food chain with the worst teachers and least resources, a structure that no one in power (red or yellow alike) wants to change because it preserves the feudal order by preventing bright sparks from the villages from getting on in life and condemns them to be tuk tuk drivers or cleaning ladies. State budgets allocated to the education ministry are regularly plundered by corrupt politicians and civil servants who feel that in addition to lining their pockets they are doing the right thing for the nation by preserving the natural order of things and keeping the people maleable and still willing to think what those with money and power wish them to think.

Meanwhile, the issues of whether English should be declared a second language or whether outsiders might get confused and imagine that Thailand had been a British colony are utterly a relevant in this catastrophic educational system. After visiting former colonies in Asia like Singapore, Hong Kong and even Malaysia where English is quite readily spoken and which have more or less functional legal systems, no one is going to confuse Thailand with former British colonies. Despite continuous dumbing down of British educational qualifications, the Thai Education Ministry accepts that 6 passes at GCSE are sufficient to enter even the best of the bad bunch of Thai universities, including Chulalongkorn and Thammasat. That means that their bachelor degrees are probably only equivalent to first year of a British university, if that. Text books used by fourth year Thai university students majoring in English still deal with grammar and simple sentence structures and they have never even heard of Shakespeare, let alone read any of his plays or even read any English literature at all.

[SergeiY]

The English language has the most extensive vocabulary of any language in the world, last time I checked it was about 1.05 million words, not counting technical words, and increasing by several thousands per year.

A limited vocabulary limits one's ability to think, particularly in the area of abstract thought, if the word for a concept does not exist is is difficult or impossible the employ this concept.

I have checked with numerous educated people, both Asian and European, they all tell me that they can think and reason best in English, indeed often they have problems translating their thoughts into their native tongue, the words simply do not exist.

pfff. are you for real or is that already a part of your bad joke?

English isn't superior to other languages.

limited vocabulary limits one's ability to think ... spoken with Wittgenstein, that part is right, all other of your arguments are very obscure and a simpleton approach.

My guess is that you cannot speak any other language beside your native English and so you are limited in your ability to think.

[arthsch]

The writer makes some good points. Overcrowding, antiquated teaching methods and poorly trained teachers are some of the big problems in the schools. The "no-fail" policy is another, but is inextricably linked to the culture of "losing face" on both the part of the school and the student, and the overcrowding problem.

However, I think the writer ignores one of the biggest problems with big budget education reform programs: corruption, which is rampant among the educational administrators in Thailand. Spending more money doesn't do any good, if it just lines the pockets of administrators.

With respect to the English as a second language declaration, while it is true that the proposal to recruit retired teachers from America got a poor reception from current TEFLers in Thailand, let's face the facts: why would any U.S. retired teacher travel 8,000-10,000 miles to work in overcrowded, under-resourced, poorly managed schools, for under $1,000 per month? It's just not going to happen.

With all respect, all of you speaking about different reasons, why the thai children have big problems to learn english.

But the real reason is the very different kind of spelling of the English Alphabet. It's unusable for Thai-children.

The Governtment of Thailand follows the stupid advices of the Americans and Englishmen, For me it's unbelievable, that Thailand has not it's own Roman-Alphabet. So, the children are losing 4 of 5 years, because of the stupid english kind of spelling. How should a child understand to spell for an "a" an "e",for an "e" an "i" and for an "i" an "ai". And what should be an "waih"? This is in Thailand not a "y" - it's the Thai-style of greetings.

Let the Thai-children learn english how they are able to do it.

If you like to know more, write me an e-mail. arthurschuelerhotmail.com

[slapout]

When the relative recent (past 100 + years) of research, invention, theory, etc are taken into account, as well as the primary language of those who were intimately involved, The importance of the English language can be readily seen. Many languages have incorporated the English words and terms into their language (granted with the accent they may sound somewhat different). I guess Latin was at one time was considered the language of commerce and business, before that, Greek, and others. In the future English may be replaced by another language, but at this day in age, it seems, it is approaching an accepted mode of communication in industry, commerce, and even war.

[SergeiY]

When the relative recent (past 100 + years) of research, invention, theory, etc are taken into account, as well as the primary language of those who were intimately involved, The importance of the English language can be readily seen. Many languages have incorporated the English words and terms into their language (granted with the accent they may sound somewhat different). I guess Latin was at one time was considered the language of commerce and business, before that, Greek, and others. In the future English may be replaced by another language, but at this day in age, it seems, it is approaching an accepted mode of communication in industry, commerce, and even war.

Let me guess, you are speaking only one language and that is English, right?

In order to reach a greater level of 'being smart' it would be good to be able to speak more than one language. Like learning a 2nd language at school. That hasn't to be necessary English. Chinese has also its future, more important is just doing it as brain exercise same like you are learning mathematics at school. Once managed to learn and speak a different language its easier for a third language to come by like when you are on your way to higher education. No one has to start with learning English as the first foreign language, but still can do it later, because English has of course its merits.

[asiawatcher]

As an aside to this the school my daughter was in (I moved her) just doubled the rate per annum from 60,000 Baht to 120,000 Baht. So faced with a choice to continue in what can only be described as a mediocre education I changed her up to one more expensive but an international school where English is taught the whole way. Whilst this may disadvantage her is come respects we will also educate her with Thai if necessary as she already reads and writes it. But as always - user pays and a lot of the high end schools are just for snob value of the Thai parents who send their kids there and that was evidenced by my daughters last school.

Also would have to concur the level of education is sad despite Thailand's claim to 95% literacy rates which is just another PR exercise

Edited October 22, 2010 by asiawatcher

[mark45y]

Look at the positive side. There are a few good students and a few good teachers and a few good administrators in Thailand. Why not put them together?

In my experience there are 4 students out of a class of 40 who not only want to learn but have the capacity to learn.

No one is going to reform the whole Thai school system so take the four students out of each class in each school system and put them at a smart kids school along with the motivated teachers and administrators.

Take 10 percent of the kids out of 10 schools. Empty one school and fill it with bright kids and leave 9 for the future motorcycle taxi drivers and bar girls. No cost involved except some mental energy determining who changes schools.

[SergeiY]

^^

That was my experience as a student too, idiots everywhere (including most of the teachers). Only few of us paid attention, 4 out of 40 or 2 out of 20 really wanted to learn (and none of us "4 students" became a teacher ...)

Going trough school is a selection process.

[anterian]

Jayja0, Perhaps those of us who advocate English are nimrods to you (what a strange expression)

But the American influence is quite recent, the old British Empire was the main driving force, in India, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Much of Africa and of course Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

At the moment Mandarin has the most speakers but is geographically limited, however as the Indian population will shortly pass that of China this will change. English is the most popular second language, In Beijing sit in a restaurant and you will soon be the focus of students keen to practise their speech.

Best of luck with your Chinese course:jap:

[friendphil]

As a native English speaker who is teaching English in a Thai public school, I very much appreciate seeing this editorial and the interesting comments that have ensued.

I find the editorial to be "right-on" in many respects. The antiquated teaching/learning methods, the lack of competence of Thai English teachers, their unwillingness to hand over much responsibility to teachers like myself, a system that doesn't reward student achievement, etc. etc. all compound the problem. One visiting administrator to our school had the simple-minded notion that somehow, student contact with a native English speaker would somehow magically have the students speaking English. Not so, and from what I have observed, not even many of the Thai English teachers seem willing to better their English through such contact.

The fix? I don't know, but I hear there are demonstration schools that are teaching more hours a week (how much can a student be expected to retain when exposed to one or two hours a week of a very foreign language?) to students, and giving their native English teachers more responsibility. These kids are indeed progressing much more rapidly. And the foreign teachers are paid commensurately. Maybe these schools will provide some examples of what works. I hope so. In the meantime, declaring English as the official second language may seem kind of a joke, but perhaps it points a direction to aspire towards.

[SergeiY]

As a native English speaker who is teaching English in a Thai public school, I very much appreciate seeing this editorial and the interesting comments that have ensued.

I find the editorial to be "right-on" in many respects. The antiquated teaching/learning methods, the lack of competence of Thai English teachers, their unwillingness to hand over much responsibility to teachers like myself, ...

just being a native speaker doesn't makes you to a teacher or to a better teacher of that language.

next ...

[mark45y]

As a native English speaker who is teaching English in a Thai public school, I very much appreciate seeing this editorial and the interesting comments that have ensued.

I find the editorial to be "right-on" in many respects. The antiquated teaching/learning methods, the lack of competence of Thai English teachers, their unwillingness to hand over much responsibility to teachers like myself, ...

just being a native speaker doesn't makes you to a teacher or to a better teacher of that language.

next ...

Of course not. Have you ever heard a person from the Philippines, Ghana or some parts of the UK speak English? They all say they speak English and are native speakers but in some cases it is very hard to understand them.

On the other hand if you speak understandable English being a native speaker is a distinct advantage as the language is a living language and changes frequently.

For example business terms change frequently and would be referred to as slang but are almost universally understood in America, the UK or Australia. Like “in the red” or “the bottom line.”

Given a motivated individual who is a good teacher I would say 90% of the time, all other things being equal a native speaker is a better qualified teacher of English. By Native speaker I mean, the UK, America and Australia, Canada and NZ and any other place I forgot. India is not on the list.

BTW I think writing “next” or “nuff said” or words to that effect is pompous and only evokes negative feelings among the readers.

Edited October 22, 2010 by mark45y

[SergeiY]

Of course not. Have you ever heard a person from the Philippines, Ghana or some parts of the UK speak English? They all say they speak English and are native speakers but in some cases it is very hard to understand them.

On the other hand if you speak understandable English being a native speaker is a distinct advantage as the language is a living language and changes frequently.

For example business terms change frequently and would be referred to as slang but are almost universally understood in America, the UK or Australia. Like “in the red” or “the bottom line.”

Given a motivated individual who is a good teacher I would say 90% of the time, all other things being equal a native speaker is a better qualified teacher of English. By Native speaker I mean, the UK, America and Australia. And NZ and any other place I forgot. India is not on the list.

BTW I think writing “next” or “nuff said” or words to that effect is pompous and only evokes negative feelings among the readers.

I am talking about the qualities of a TEACHER and not the quality of a slang or dialect free native English.

BTW. You are right with the 'next' thing, but i could not resist. to many people here thinking that just being a native speaker would qualify them as a teacher, but completely ignore what teaching actually means, but are just priggish and self-opinionated.