This Quick Fix For Thai Schools Is Failing Our Children

[mark45y]

Of course not. Have you ever heard a person from the Philippines, Ghana or some parts of the UK speak English? They all say they speak English and are native speakers but in some cases it is very hard to understand them.

On the other hand if you speak understandable English being a native speaker is a distinct advantage as the language is a living language and changes frequently.

For example business terms change frequently and would be referred to as slang but are almost universally understood in America, the UK or Australia. Like “in the red” or “the bottom line.”

Given a motivated individual who is a good teacher I would say 90% of the time, all other things being equal a native speaker is a better qualified teacher of English. By Native speaker I mean, the UK, America and Australia. And NZ and any other place I forgot. India is not on the list.

BTW I think writing “next” or “nuff said” or words to that effect is pompous and only evokes negative feelings among the readers.

I am talking about the qualities of a TEACHER and not the quality of a slang or dialect free native English.

BTW. You are right with the 'next' thing, but i could not resist. to many people here thinking that just being a native speaker would qualify them as a teacher, but completely ignore what teaching actually means, but are just priggish and self-opinionated.

By slang I don't mean hip hop kids slang but common business or language terms that change frequently. To be able to understand an English language movie you have to know quite a bit of slang.

Given a good teacher who was a native speaker and a good teacher from Tibet who spoke English whom would you prefer to teach your children English?

[SergeiY]

Given a good teacher who was a native speaker and a good teacher from Tibet who spoke English whom would you prefer to teach your children English?

Probably not the one who use the Fahrenheit temperature scale in a debate with an international audience and definitely one teacher who can speak more than one language.

edited to add a smiley

Edited October 22, 2010 by SergeiY

[whybother]

As a native English speaker who is teaching English in a Thai public school, I very much appreciate seeing this editorial and the interesting comments that have ensued.

I find the editorial to be "right-on" in many respects. The antiquated teaching/learning methods, the lack of competence of Thai English teachers, their unwillingness to hand over much responsibility to teachers like myself, ...

just being a native speaker doesn't makes you to a teacher or to a better teacher of that language.

next ...

You're correct in saying "just because you know a subject doesn't make you a good teacher of it", but it beats being taught by a good teacher that doesn't know the subject.

Edited October 22, 2010 by whybother

[mark45y]

Given a good teacher who was a native speaker and a good teacher from Tibet who spoke English whom would you prefer to teach your children English?

Probably not the one who use the Fahrenheit temperature scale in a debate with an international audience and definitely one teacher who can speak more than one language.

edited to add a smiley

Jamaica uses the Fahrenheit scale mon. I thought all the native speaking English teachers in Thailand spoke Thai. How do they communicate with the children if they don't? One would have to be silly not to speak the students language if trying to teach them another.

[SergeiY]

You're correct in saying "just because you know a subject doesn't make you a good teacher of it", but it beats being taught by a good teacher that doesn't know the subject.

I guess you are speaking only one language, right?

Just being a native speaker cannot be compared to "know a subject."

To learn a language in school is a quite different process than how a baby or toddler pick up the mother tongue

[Somtamnication]

Out of 5 Thai teachers teaching English at my govt school, 3 do not speak an ounce of English. They come to me with dictionary in hand or papers in hand for me to correct them. Talk about the weather? Impossible. Present continuous, present simple? Arai wa? No idea on what those mean.

One of the 5 speaks ok English, enough to tell me things I need to know about school happenings.

The 5th. one speaks some English, is open to conversation. The ones who speak English have pronunciation problems (sakool, how, becaud, etc).

The first 3 teach English out of a Thai book with English sentences. When I query the students on that book, they have no idea what they are reading or writing.

They get backhands, bamboo sticks and yells if they ask a question.

The teachers all need to be fired. Close all schools for a year and re-train the old ones or retire them. New teachers should be taught new methods. Until then, the dinosaurs at my school are nothing more than lottery mafia, gossip-mongers and farang-hating bunch.

Why do I teach there? I love my students and I believe in them.

[SergeiY]

One of the 5 speaks ok English, enough to tell me things I need to know about school happenings.

You mean without the help of that Thai teacher you would be lost at school?

[slapout]

One of the 5 speaks ok English, enough to tell me things I need to know about school happenings.

You mean without the help of that Thai teacher you would be lost at school?

Your guesses have not been correct at times and your assumption of the meaning above is quite suspect. As was pointed out to you. some of your terms and English usage can leave a negative feeling toward your post and may lead to a missed opportunity for you to pass along some real knowledge.

[mark45y]

You make a good point. I have strong feelings that it is difficult to teach in a Thai school without speaking at least rudimentary Thai. I know there are some schools who don't allow English teachers to speak any Thai in an English classroom. I have tried this without success. I have also been told by Thai teachers not to speak so much Thai to the students. However I knew if I spoke only English I would be reaching only a very small percentage of students.

Also how will new teachers arrive in Thailand speaking Thai?

Further, I feel that teachers should have a degree but what teacher with a degree not from a third world country will teach for 20,000 baht per month? And what are degrees in English from third world countries worth?

How long does a teacher at a government school stay motivated in Thailand? 3 months? A year?

The first year teaching here I cried. The second I laughed. I was happier the second year.

I know Thai teachers at a government that are drunk every afternoon. I don't condone it. I never did it. But I can understand their behavior.

[canuck1941]

Given a good teacher who was a native speaker and a good teacher from Tibet who spoke English whom would you prefer to teach your children English?

Probably not the one who use the Fahrenheit temperature scale in a debate with an international audience and definitely one teacher who can speak more than one language.

edited to add a smiley

Jamaica uses the Fahrenheit scale mon. I thought all the native speaking English teachers in Thailand spoke Thai. How do they communicate with the children if they don't? One would have to be silly not to speak the students language if trying to teach them another.

I am unilingual. I taught English as a second language in six countries with no problem. One would in fact be silly to speak to the students in their own language if one was trying to teach them English. There's much more to teaching than what one with no experience could even imagine. Just because you don't know anything about teaching, doesn't mean a teacher should follow what you think they should do.

[Thunderbird4ever]

The schools will come after as with everything else. As per day the schools are in balance with the Thai thinking and way of life. Thais are living in a self controlled anarchy mixed with with corruption from all officials and government agencies. This is the problem.

Its no point talking about schools having problems or other institutions. As Thailand is an important nation in SAE Its the way of life here that needs a change so it can meet the standards of a modern world in all aspects.

[mark45y]

Given a good teacher who was a native speaker and a good teacher from Tibet who spoke English whom would you prefer to teach your children English?

Probably not the one who use the Fahrenheit temperature scale in a debate with an international audience and definitely one teacher who can speak more than one language.

edited to add a smiley

Jamaica uses the Fahrenheit scale mon. I thought all the native speaking English teachers in Thailand spoke Thai. How do they communicate with the children if they don't? One would have to be silly not to speak the students language if trying to teach them another.

I am unilingual. I taught English as a second language in six countries with no problem. One would in fact be silly to speak to the students in their own language if one was trying to teach them English. There's much more to teaching than what one with no experience could even imagine. Just because you don't know anything about teaching, doesn't mean a teacher should follow what you think they should do.

I have taught thousands of children and adults in Thailand.

I taught in the daytime at a government school and at night at a private school.

I taught in English and in Thai.

I have also taught on a college level in the US. I have a degree and a teaching certificate.

When I started teaching in Thailand my Thai speaking ability was very poor. Now, it is not great but it is not bad.

I found teaching much easier and the students performance much better if I could tell them in Thai the words I taught them in English.

For example. I would show them a flash card. Write it on the board in English. Then I would speak the word in English.

I would have the entire class speak the word in English.

I would do this with 12 words. Then I would go to each student individually and show them the flash card and ask them to say the word in English.

Then I would say the word in Thai and ask them to say the word in English as a class and then individually.

Then I would switch back and forth. If I said the word in English they said it in Thai and if I said the word in Thai they would say the word in English. Then I would do the same thing in writing on the board. Me Thai and them English or the reverse.

Speaking Thai also allowed me to communicate with the other teachers and teach without a teachers aid. I have always been the only teacher in my classes both in the government and private schools. I had no one to assist with administrative duties. Just me and 40 children.

I would suggest if you don't speak Thai not only are you not doing a good job but you don't know if you are doing a good job or not. Ignorance is bliss. If you don't speak Thai you don't know what the students or teachers really think of your teaching.

But that is just one man's opinion. However I have never met a fluent Thai speaker who disagrees with me.

[lounger]

Please do put them first and I can help you a couple of hours a week free.

I regularly get asked to help so I guess every rural expat is a target. The problem I am sure is loss of face, any time I am dragged into a school to help out the teacher that same teacher does a runner and leaves me alone.

The problem with this is that one becomes a stand-in. I dont want to be a cheap diversion I want to create a lesson and carry it through. I prefer to actually carry out the appropriate lesson as expected in the time table. But no. One is shoved in naked and abandoned. I taught ages 11 to 15 for four years and so know what I am doing but now I explain I will assist but not lead. That has stopped the requests.

Back to the topic of second language. Its a good idea, it shows intent and in due course better qualified teachers will come through. It may take ten years to see a difference but each year will be more literate than the preceeding one and at least everyone knows the game plan.

[SergeiY]

...

I found teaching much easier and the students performance much better if I could tell them in Thai the words I taught them in English.

...

Speaking only English during the lesson is just another 'teaching method' and probably also one that can have some good results.

My point would be that a language teacher should at least be able to speak fluently a second language (that hasn't necessary to be the language of his student) just to know what it means to learn or speak another language that is different from the mother tongue. And that teacher should also have a linguistic knowledge about his subject or even better knowledge in comparative/contrastive linguistics.

All that, a good method and some pedagogy doesn't makes you to a teacher yet, not to speak of a good teacher.

Edited October 22, 2010 by SergeiY

[canuck1941]

...

I found teaching much easier and the students performance much better if I could tell them in Thai the words I taught them in English.

...

Speaking only English during the lesson is just another 'teaching method' and probably also one that can have some good results.

My point would be that a language teacher should at least be able to speak fluently a second language (that hasn't necessary to be the language of his student) just to know what it means to learn or speak another language that is different from the mother tongue. And that teacher should also have a linguistic knowledge about his subject or even better knowledge in comparative/contrastive linguistics.

All that, a good method and some pedagogy doesn't makes you to a teacher yet, not to speak of a good teacher.

I agree. A teacher who has learnt by whatever method to speak a second language is more empathetic to the students. I may speak only English but I've been in Spanish, turkish, Arabic, Chinese, Vietnamese, Hebrew, Russian and maybe one or two other ones. When you understand the structure of the language of the students, it's easier to get them to understand the structure of the target language.

Once in an Arab high school, the principal came into my class and for my edifcation showed me how to teach the Present Simple, but in Arabic. He couldn't understand what he was doing. Such types are endemic in education, mores the pity. He reminds of people who think teaching is something not much more complicated than flipping a burger. Only lip service is given to the actual needs of the students.

[Somtamnication]

One of the 5 speaks ok English, enough to tell me things I need to know about school happenings.

You mean without the help of that Thai teacher you would be lost at school?

Err, no. But thanks for your assumption. The farang teachers are exempt (or banned, depending on your point of view) from wai kru dai. Holidays are not paid to us, but are to Thai teachers. By school happenings, I mean things like when are school holidays, speeches written (yes, we have to help the students cheat at speeches for regional tournaments), days that are not teaching but we must be present, etc etc. None of us are fluent in Thai, so I hope that you forgive us for that.

[anterian]

I am basically a retired science teacher but my French was good enough to cover at times for sick staff in the french department, I can also cope with basic spoken German (my spelling is rather hit and miss).

In Slovenia after I retired I spent some time teaching anthropology to high school students, in English of course, I encountered no problems. Whilst there I co-authored with the language department several colloquial English learning books, again no problems.

The basic difference between there and Thailand was that firstly the students were enthusiastic at learning and using English, secondly the teaching staff were exceedingly keen to take advantage of a native English speaker in their midst. In fact we often had heated debates over correct English usage.

To instill English well in Thailand one needs pupils that want to learn, teachers that know how to teach, and at least one literate native speaker per school.

[gregb]

My personal opinion is that all school systems in every country are hopelessly broken. The entire model copies from the idea of industrialization and manufacturing, where a student is the end product of an assembly line, and any deviation from uniformity is viewed as a flaw that affects the yield of the final product, which is of course, GDP.

It isn't this "quick fix" that is failing our children. It is the very concept of education that is failing our children. It is illustrated very well in the Youtube video for those of you who have not seen it before.

If English were simply made a fun project that was intimately linked with everyday life (say, because there were no subtitles on movies, and if you wanted to entertain yourself you had to learn) then it would happen automatically. Same with Chinese or any other language you might wish to substitute. There is no need to test students on it. It isn't a chore. It is something a percentage of them will do willingly if given the right stimulation. Some won't, but that is OK. Some will find it incredibly interesting and want to study the grammar of the language. Some will find that completely useless. Not everyone is the same. People who don't know English will naturally find positions in society where English isn't necessary.

"Teaching" English is the worst thing to do to children. They need to experience English. They need to search it out for themselves because they are drawn to it. And if they aren't, then they need to be left alone and not bothered. If you structure their lives in such a way that English is pertinent, a good percentage will do what is necessary to master it. And they won't lose their "Thainess" because of it either.

Personally, I am skipping the school system altogether and home schooling my children. They are too important to me to trust to this mistaken mentality. And I believe that in the end, my children will dramatically outperform nearly everyone subjected to the mind numbing corruption of the existing educational paradigm.

[Somtamnication]

The feeling that in order to teach English, the teacher should at least be bilingual is <deleted>.

I speak fluent Spanish (having grown up in South America). I also speak some Guaraní and conversational Thai. None of the languages I have helped me to teach English. I do use Thai when I see the students do not comprehend, but use it sparingly.

I want them to "think". Thai schools brainwash, err, sorry, that is not politically correct. Thai schools teach by rote. The one system I refuse to use.

[fiercesnake]

Has this been written by a Thai!? OMG! This is spot-on. Don't see the writer's name but for once clearly you've hit at the real problem. The whole education system here needs one massive shake-up. If more "normal" Thais demand better from their government, things may change.? We can only truly hope but as long as the government wants the hidden curriculum to make compliance to the status-quo the norm; keeping the rich rich and in power and the poor even poorer, then little will change for a long time yet.

Keep it up editor. If more reporters asked some REAL questions instead of just reporting whatever tripe the government or big business peddle, then you, Thailand, are on a REAL track to true development by making those in power ACCOUNTABLE!

Top marks for making pertinent points! BUT be careful though; too much noise, you may be "removed" from your position!

[canuck1941]

"I would suggest if you don't speak Thai not only are you not doing a good job but you don't know if you are doing a good job or not. Ignorance is bliss. If you don't speak Thai you don't know what the students or teachers really think of your teaching.

But that is just one man's opinion. However I have never met a fluent Thai speaker who disagrees with me.

I could tell by the expressions on their faces, students and teachers alike, who attended my classes, what they thought about my teaching method. Smiles, mostly. And I will acknowledge that knowing the language of the students helps, but to think one can't teach English unless one knows the other language, is plain silly. How would speaking Thai help children or adults to learn the alphabet and numbers?

Edited October 23, 2010 by canuck1941

[canuck1941]

I am basically a retired science teacher but my French was good enough to cover at times for sick staff in the french department, I can also cope with basic spoken German (my spelling is rather hit and miss).

In Slovenia after I retired I spent some time teaching anthropology to high school students, in English of course, I encountered no problems. Whilst there I co-authored with the language department several colloquial English learning books, again no problems.

The basic difference between there and Thailand was that firstly the students were enthusiastic at learning and using English, secondly the teaching staff were exceedingly keen to take advantage of a native English speaker in their midst. In fact we often had heated debates over correct English usage.

To instill English well in Thailand one needs pupils that want to learn, teachers that know how to teach, and at least one literate native speaker per school.

Agreed. A good teacher is one who makes the students want to learn because what they are learning is relevant to their immediate lives. For examle, when I want them to practice introducing themselves and asking conversation producing questions, I tell the boys that this exercise will help them pick up Farang women, and girls likewise. Boy, do they pay attention, practice, and have loads of fun. It's just finding that "one literate native speaker" whom the administration will support.

It must by now be beyond question that the most important mark of a child's educational success is the parents and the interest they put into the kid's school at every level. Parents who understand that the future of their children is at risk if they do not get involved in the school to demand the highest quality possible of instruction will have to lead the way in the reform of the education system in Thailand. When parents see that it is in their own self-interest to have quality education available to all Thai students, the system will change faster than a Farang can blink.

PS. Looks like I'm not the only one with a few klicks left on the odometer.

[scorecard]

It also doesn't help when your universities suck too (although big improvements from Mahidol). Even my grade school decades ago had better facilities and bigger libraries.

The only way out is to send your kids to overpriced private schools. And even those don't guarantee a good education.

Kids should be learning Chinese, then English, then true diplomacy (non Thai) and international cultures.

Why, oh why should Thai children learn Chinese first?

To better be able to help China?

A little off topic but I wonder how many people know how fast English language ability is developing in China?

Schools at all levels in many parts of China (not all) are really pushing English and the focus is on spoken and written English. They use professional methodologies, they work, and spoken English ability progresses fast.

[animatic]

It also doesn't help when your universities suck too (although big improvements from Mahidol). Even my grade school decades ago had better facilities and bigger libraries.

The only way out is to send your kids to overpriced private schools. And even those don't guarantee a good education.

Kids should be learning Chinese, then English, then true diplomacy (non Thai) and international cultures.

Why, oh why should Thai children learn Chinese first?

To better be able to help China?

A little off topic but I wonder how many people know how fast English language ability is developing in China?

Schools at all levels in many parts of China (not all) are really pushing English and the focus is on spoken and written English. They use professional methodologies, they work, and spoken English ability progresses fast.

The Chinese know that English is the route to financial power and feeding their masses faster and better.

[sparebox2]

As usual government chooses to address red herrings on the peripheries of the real issue which is: 1) the extremely low quality of teaching and of the curriculum in Thai schools in general; and 2) the rural/urban and socioeconomic divide in education. While the best private schools for wealthy Chinese kids who can afford the tea money are just rote learning factories by international standards, the government schools are much worse as the teachers are often barely educated themselves. Village schools are at the bottom of the food chain with the worst teachers and least resources, a structure that no one in power (red or yellow alike) wants to change because it preserves the feudal order by preventing bright sparks from the villages from getting on in life and condemns them to be tuk tuk drivers or cleaning ladies. State budgets allocated to the education ministry are regularly plundered by corrupt politicians and civil servants who feel that in addition to lining their pockets they are doing the right thing for the nation by preserving the natural order of things and keeping the people maleable and still willing to think what those with money and power wish them to think.

Meanwhile, the issues of whether English should be declared a second language or whether outsiders might get confused and imagine that Thailand had been a British colony are utterly a relevant in this catastrophic educational system. After visiting former colonies in Asia like Singapore, Hong Kong and even Malaysia where English is quite readily spoken and which have more or less functional legal systems, no one is going to confuse Thailand with former British colonies. Despite continuous dumbing down of British educational qualifications, the Thai Education Ministry accepts that 6 passes at GCSE are sufficient to enter even the best of the bad bunch of Thai universities, including Chulalongkorn and Thammasat. That means that their bachelor degrees are probably only equivalent to first year of a British university, if that. Text books used by fourth year Thai university students majoring in English still deal with grammar and simple sentence structures and they have never even heard of Shakespeare, let alone read any of his plays or even read any English literature at all.

5 IGCSE (not 6) will get you a Mor 6 equivalent cert. However it does not qualify you a place in any uni (including Chulalongkorn and Thammasat mentioned). The uni themselves have other requirements, which is higher than the bare minimum.

Same same in UK uni min requirement is 5 GCSE and 2 "A" level at any grades. Eg you meet minimum if you score all "D" in both GCSE & "A" level. But UK uni won't offer you a place, as most student do achieve better than that.