Is My Drinking Behaviour Normal?

[Mobi]

Firstly, having blackouts when drinking is NOT normal. It means that your are destroying brain cells at a fast rate.

I drank copious amounts of booze for decades without having a single blackout. I could always remember every single incident of what I had been up to during my binge - even if it had lasted for several days. They only started for me when I was around 60 and have since got progressively worse.

Any doctor will tell you that blackouts are a very bad sign.

As to whether the OP is an alcoholic or not, he has been given enough advice on this thread to come to his own conclusion in the fullness of time.

He is concerned about some aspects of his drinking and so he should be. He also appears to be an open, intelligent person (the antithesis of many 'practising alkies'), and I believe he will continue to research and observe his own behaviour and take whatever action that may be necessary.

[powderpuff]

I'm an elderly fellow and I've drunk beer all my life although I've not got a particular high tolerance for the beverage. Were I to start drinking at 6pm I would not remember too much of what occurred by the end of the evening. That's normal.

I don't think you have a problem and I assume you are just a social drinker who gets the flavour and is reluctant to leave the pub as are many people everywhere. If you don't drink indoors, don't crave a drink and it causes you no trouble at work or in your personal life carry on as normal. I would not even think of you as a boozer.

So according to you having blackouts is "normal"

OP has a problem & he needs to put it down cold turkey.

[billdo2000]

I'm an elderly fellow and I've drunk beer all my life although I've not got a particular high tolerance for the beverage. Were I to start drinking at 6pm I would not remember too much of what occurred by the end of the evening. That's normal.

I don't think you have a problem and I assume you are just a social drinker who gets the flavour and is reluctant to leave the pub as are many people everywhere. If you don't drink indoors, don't crave a drink and it causes you no trouble at work or in your personal life carry on as normal. I would not even think of you as a boozer.

So according to you having blackouts is "normal"

OP has a problem & he needs to put it down cold turkey.

He was only referring to himself when explaining that blackouts were "normal" if he drank beer from 6pm onwards. Read the original post again.

[corkman]

......I assume you are just a social drinker who gets the flavour and is reluctant to leave the pub .......

Hi all,

I continue to read the numerous replies, although I have made up my mind, in my own mind, where I "think" I stand........ The post above however is pertinent in that while reading several replies, a theme keeps coming up and when I look at my original post I can see that I have misrepresented myself somewhat:

"1. Once I start, I find it hard to stop...... I can't just go for 3 or 4 beers and come home tipsy at 9pm - instead I'll do my utmost to state late and get pissed."

Reading back over it, I can see how that reads "I go out with a single minded mission of getting pissed, and don't leave till the jobs done" ....... I don't think I have ever set out on a single minded mission to do such - what I should have said is:

"when the party is good and I am enjoying myself, I find it hard to leave"

It's the party and fun that I find hard to leave, not the drink. I have often gone out, with the intention of having a good time, and found the venue or the company boring or not interesting, and have been content to have a "socail few" then make my excuses and leave..... its not the drink that is holding me there, it is the "fun" and the "social" scene. So I think yogi100 has hit the nail on the head there...... put it this way, I do not try and sneak a beer out the door to drink on the way home in the taxi or anything like that..... once I leave, I leave.....generally.

Notwithstanding the above, its the blackouts that is the thing for me..... however when starting early (often without a proper meal) and finishing late, I believe many people don't remember the night before...... I am not trying to say it is normal, but what I am starting to think is that its the amount I drink that is not normal, and the blackouts are a symptom not a cause..... as it were.

If I start to feel tired, or sick, then I go home...... I don't try and "drink myself sober". Now, I will admit on ocassion, when I have met an old friend that I have not seen for a while and may not see again for a while (as in years) then we have often stayed up late talking rubbish, remembering childhood days etc. and continued drinking a slow pace until sun rise.... at which point we would both "feel" sober (although we would know we were not)....... but I cannot think of anyone that I know that does not have a similar story.

I will reiterate my running-conclusion...... I think I am not an alcoholic, but I am a bit of a glutton, and I've got to learn to control the gluttony before a bad habbit turns into a real problem. To develop someone elses analogy - I don't think I'm (a little bit) pregnant but I've forgotten to take my pill a few times and like to ride bare-back, and so if I don't get my house in order then it is inevitable what while happen.

BTW - I would not think of myself as a boozer. I don't know what bearing that has on the matter, but I know plenty of people of varying ages and backgrounds that will call into the local pub almost every night of the week (at least 5) and sit there alone or otherwise having a steady few pints (maybe 3 or 4, or maybe more) - not enough to get pissed but enough to feel it and go home tipsy...... to me that is a boozer and a habbit and if I felt obligated or even inclined to do that every single day then I would be alot more concerned than I am now.....

Edited October 27, 2010 by corkman

[StreetCowboy]

......I assume you are just a social drinker who gets the flavour and is reluctant to leave the pub .......

Hi all,

I continue to read the numerous replies, although I have made up my mind, in my own mind, where I "think" I stand........ The post above however is pertinent in that while reading several replies, a theme keeps coming up and when I look at my original post I can see that I have misrepresented myself somewhat:

"1. Once I start, I find it hard to stop...... I can't just go for 3 or 4 beers and come home tipsy at 9pm - instead I'll do my utmost to state late and get pissed."

Reading back over it, I can see how that reads "I go out with a single minded mission of getting pissed, and don't leave till the jobs done" ....... I don't think I have ever set out on a single minded mission to do such - what I should have said is:

"when the party is good and I am enjoying myself, I find it hard to leave"

It's the party and fun that I find hard to leave, not the drink. I have often gone out, with the intention of having a good time, and found the venue or the company boring or not interesting, and have been content to have a "socail few" then make my excuses and leave..... its not the drink that is holding me there, it is the "fun" and the "social" scene. So I think yogi100 has hit the nail on the head there...... put it this way, I do not try and sneak a beer out the door to drink on the way home in the taxi or anything like that..... once I leave, I leave.....generally.

Notwithstanding the above, its the blackouts that is the thing for me..... however when starting early (often without a proper meal) and finishing late, I believe many people don't remember the night before...... I am not trying to say it is normal, but what I am starting to think is that its the amount I drink that is not normal, and the blackouts are a symptom not a cause..... as it were.

If I start to feel tired, or sick, then I go home...... I don't try and "drink myself sober". Now, I will admit on ocassion, when I have met an old friend that I have not seen for a while and may not see again for a while (as in years) then we have often stayed up late talking rubbish, remembering childhood days etc. and continued drinking a slow pace until sun rise.... at which point we would both "feel" sober (although we would know we were not)....... but I cannot think of anyone that I know that does not have a similar story.

I will reiterate my running-conclusion...... I think I am not an alcoholic, but I am a bit of a glutton, and I've got to learn to control the gluttony before a bad habbit turns into a real problem. To develop someone elses analogy - I don't think I'm (a little bit) pregnant but I've forgotten to take my pill a few times and like to ride bare-back, and so if I don't get my house in order then it is inevitable what while happen.

BTW - I would not think of myself as a boozer. I don't know what bearing that has on the matter, but I know plenty of people of varying ages and backgrounds that will call into the local pub almost every night of the week (at least 5) and sit there alone or otherwise having a steady few pints (maybe 3 or 4, or maybe more) - not enough to get pissed but enough to feel it and go home tipsy...... to me that is a boozer and a habbit and if I felt obligated or even inclined to do that every single day then I would be alot more concerned than I am now.....

I was the same - I never drank to get drunk, I hated black-outs; but they became all too frequent. I'd have one more in the pub after everyone else had sloped off home - or maybe not... and then stop in somewhere else on the way looking for a bit of craic becuase I wasn't tired...

Anyway, you've all that to look forward to, and its not worth stopping - or even trying to stop - until it becomes a problem. It might be interesting to see if you can go without for say a month, but out of interest only

SC

[IMA_FARANG]

No, I certainly wouldn't say you are an alcholic...but you are showing the first signs of not being in control of your drinking. It's time to at least moderate your behaviour.

Ask yourself why having "fun" is equated by you with consuming alchohol. Why can't you have "fun" with no alchohol? Think about the answer to that question. Isn't it really because you're starting to need alchohol to have "fun"? I've been there. About 30 years ago now, I was about 34 or 35 also, I was in Bangkok. I thought I was fine...I was drinking every night but I never passed out or drank to the point that I couldn't control my alchohol use (I thought). Then one morning about 11:00 I was walking down the sidewalk. The sidewalk was torn up a bit and uneven, I was having a problem walking due to the holes and the uneven surface of that sidewalk. I thought to myself, "Someone ought to fix this sidewalk, it's hard to walk here". Just then another younger guy went by me, he wasn't having the same problems negotiating the sidewalk that I was. I suddenly realised it wasn't the sidewalk that was the real problem, it was ME. Yes, the pavement was uneven and a bit torn up, but others were negotiating it reasonably well. I wasn't. At that point I realised that even though I wasn't "drunk" or even "tipsy" the alchohol I was consuming regularly was still causing problems with my ability to get around. But that couldn't be, I was only about 35! It was like a slap in my face. If I was losing some my abilities at 35 years old...what would I be like at 45 years...or 55 or 65, for that matter. The thought scared me... I didn't like the answer I saw. That was the day I realised I had to control and moderate my drinking...it was starting to do me long term harm.

That's when I realised I had to control my drinking...before it began to control me.

Edited October 28, 2010 by IMA_FARANG

[Mobi]

I think the combined wisdom of alcoholics together with those who are hovering on the brink will help the OP to determine if he really has a problem that needs addressing.

It is a feature of alcoholics that they will never start on the long road to recovery until they are scrupulously honest about their drinking habits and acknowledge that they have a problem.

Please understand that there are countless so-called "heavy drinkers,who drink pretty much every day of their lives, but know when to stop and are never a liability to themsleves or their family, and when needs be, have no problems in abstaining for long periods of time with no adverse effects.

There are others, who may drink much less than the classic "heavy drinker" but who are nevertheless addicted to alcohol and are alcoholics.

Some folk have an enormous capacity for alcohol and others are quite drunk after a few beers.

No two people are the same. That is why the much criticised "20 questions" does help in weeding out the heavy drinkers from the alcoholics.

Mind you, there is many a heavy drinker who turned into a full blown 'alkie' in his old age....

[soihok]

I,m at a definite two yes,s on the questions.

Sometimes three, if you consider an occasional morning drink a yes. Not everyday

I am quite strict with myself as I have to support the family, but I certainly have about 3 cans of beer every night.

So I guess I,m an alcoholic then, but I guess there are stages of being an alcoholic.

Cheers

[Sheryl]

"Normal" is a somewhat loaded term and, since it is always relative, different people are going to have different ideas of it.

There are population segments (arguably even whole nations) where alcohol abuse is so widespread that it might be considered "normal" for members of that group, but that doesn't make it harmless.

A more pertinent question might be: is your drinking in any way harmful to you or others?

If you are having black-outs, then certainly you are consuming more than is healthy and you are causing yourself at least physical harm.

As to whether or not you can on your own redress this by better controlling your drinking, or whether you need outside help, only you can say and there's an obvious way to find out.

It has been my experience tho that when people post these types of questions in a forum designed for people with a drinking problem....they usually already know the answer. Just maybe not quite ready to accept it.

[soihok]

I suppose it depends if you see it as a problem.

Having blackouts and not knowing what your actions are, or were, can certainly be very dangerous for the well being of yourself and others. Whether the others are your depedants or people in your "blind" path.

Its too general the 20 question thing I believe.

"Do you feel guilty after you have had a drink?"

" Do you feel guilty after you fart in public?"

Horses for courses.

As long as your life is under control, in respect of a drink rather than farting,I don;t see what the problem can be .

Oh yes, the health issue. But thats another story , isn't it?

[mommysboy]

Binge Drinking.

Are you able to moderate?

If not, then possibly we can say you have a problem.

But it's not just about alcohol, it's about behaviour, ie, are you a danger to yourself or others?

Blacking out ! Come on, do we really need to go any further?

[StreetCowboy]

Binge Drinking.

Are you able to moderate?

If not, then possibly we can say you have a problem.

But it's not just about alcohol, it's about behaviour, ie, are you a danger to yourself or others?

Blacking out ! Come on, do we really need to go any further?

To the OP:

I think that you've probably had enough replies to make up your own mind now. All you're going to get from here on in, I think, is AA-zealots saying "Go to AA or you'll die" and people trying to justify their own drinking - people advising you based on their own problems and solutions.

I don't think that you'd stop even if you went to AA now or tried; if you can moderate your drinking, then I would do that if I were you; and if you can't - well, it will get worse and sooner or later you'll probably want to try AA. They've helped some hopeless cases recover from alcoholism, but I expect you will carry on so long as you're happy to pay the price...

THe Blackouts are worrying, though. I would beg you to leave the car or bike at home before you pick up the first drink of a night...

SC

[Mobi]

Good post SC.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[corkman]

Binge Drinking.

Are you able to moderate?

If not, then possibly we can say you have a problem.

But it's not just about alcohol, it's about behaviour, ie, are you a danger to yourself or others?

Blacking out ! Come on, do we really need to go any further?

To the OP:

I think that you've probably had enough replies to make up your own mind now. All you're going to get from here on in, I think, is AA-zealots saying "Go to AA or you'll die" and people trying to justify their own drinking - people advising you based on their own problems and solutions.

I don't think that you'd stop even if you went to AA now or tried; if you can moderate your drinking, then I would do that if I were you; and if you can't - well, it will get worse and sooner or later you'll probably want to try AA. They've helped some hopeless cases recover from alcoholism, but I expect you will carry on so long as you're happy to pay the price...

THe Blackouts are worrying, though. I would beg you to leave the car or bike at home before you pick up the first drink of a night...

SC

SC,

Thank you for your post.

Yes, I agree...... I was taught be be cautious, and while I recieve everyones contribution gratefully, I am also mindful that some replies may be somewhat loaded and I would like to think I am objective enough to recognise that which applies to me. I lead a very happy, healthy, and fulfilled life - I am blessed with a wonderful wife and child, a good and very satisfying job, and prosperity seems to follow me like a shadow. Alcohol certainly has not impeded me in respect of any of this. When I am "pissed" I am apparently good fun and not leery or annoying nor do I behave idiotically - even when I cannot make any given social event all my friends and colleagues plead for me to go ...... if I was a pest they would not do that. But, and here is the big but, I am not at all confortable with the black out scenario.

Most people (that I know) have on the occasion drank so much that they don't remember the night before.... but for me it is just happening all too often. I have a couple of theories which might help. A couple of evenings back one chap declared that he was a "volume drinker" - by that he meant if you put a pint of beer, a glass of wine, or a large scotch in front of him, he will drink it at the same rate without thinking about the strength of what he's drinking. In the back of mind I have long known this to be the case for me, however with my new-found awareness it is something I will be factoring in to my next night out, in line with my moderation attempts.

You hit the nail on the head saying I won't stop drinking now...... and this is because I do not believe I need to. If I set myself the objective now of saying "I'm giving up drink" then in a week or a month or a year or whenever, if I decide to have a night out then it will be a failure ..... I would only be setting myself up to fail...... and simply because I do not feel I need to quit drinking, I just need to be more sensible about how I do it.

So thank you for your post - yours have been some of the more tangible posts, and your most recent reaffirms to me what I think myself.

Cheers,

CM

[Mobi]

here is a very interesting article on the subject of alcohol induced blackouts:

BLACKOUTS

You will note that some people are more suceptible to blackouts than others, and even more relevant is the suggestion that people who consume alcohol at a a fast rate are more likely to have blackouts than those who drink slowly, regardless of how drunk the slow drinkers eventually become.

Interesting stuff - certainly worth a read.

[Mobi]

Many years ago, when I was a relatively young man and a very successful businessman with a loving wife and family,(not dissimilar to the situation the OP has described for himself), and long before I even dreamt that I may be an alcoholic, I was becoming aware that on social occasions I drank much faster than those around me.

I noted it, but didn't give it too much thought, as like the Op, I never made a fool myself, was always 'the life and soul of the party', never had blackouts and no matter how late I went to bed, was always able to get up at the crack of dawn and be at my desk in the city before 8 a.m.

But this symptom along with others started to bother me more and more as I got older, and by the time I took early retirement at the age of 54 I was aware that my drinking was really getting out of control.

When I was 56, I went through a very traumatic divorce from my wife of 26 years and I moved back to Thailand, by which time I was probably drinking the heaviest I have ever done in my life. I remember looking at the '20 questions' during that period and I was left in little doubt that I was a full blown alcoholic.

It was probably another five years after those first realisations, with ever increasing blackouts, some resulting in bad car accidents that I finally sought the help of AA.

This was about 3 years ago and since then I have been in and out of AA and have had various periods of sobriety.

To the OP - you are doing the right thing, but please tread very carefully. Please understand that alcoholism is a disease - some people catch it and others can drink all the life and never succumb to it - and you are showing one worrying symptom of that disease, the desire to drink quickly, which is probably leading to your frequent blackouts.

I wish you good luck and good health.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Mobi

[corkman]

<br />

<br />Binge Drinking.<br /><br />Are you able to moderate?<br /><br />If not, then possibly we can say you have a problem.<br /><br />But it's not just about alcohol, it's about behaviour, ie, are you a danger to yourself or others?<br /><br />Blacking out ! Come on, do we really need to go any further?<br />

<br /><br /><br /> I would beg you to leave the car or bike at home <b>before</b> you pick up the <b>first </b>drink of a night... <br /><br />SC<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Well we are safe on that one. I never ever drink and drive, without exception

[rufanuf]

Quite interesting reading the OP and all the replies. Personally I think drinking is a probelm when the person drinking decides it is, and not when others be they the AA, your wife, your kids or your work colleagues do.

If you cannot tell the difference between overwhelming self indulgence that negatively impacts on your relationships with others, and socially responsible drinking, then clearly you have a problem. I personally don't think drinking is a disease either, I mean what other disease do you know that leaves the room when the substance causing it does!?

Addiction is a physcological condition, a habit nothing more. Unfortunately human beings are prone to developing all kinds of habitual ways of interacting with their immediate environments, me, you and the "alcoholic"...we are all the same, some of those habits might be deemed healthy, others not, in fact they all just form the fabric of everyday life. The only thing that seperates all of us is our thought processes, our beliefs, what we personally believe is acceptable or otherwise. If you believe heavy drinking is fun and acceptable and that your body can cope with what you do, you will likely do it. If you think drinking is a great way to put off solving other problems you need to address in your life, you will likely do it. If you feel you can't stop drinking becuase it will make you feel bad (a hangover, hair of the dog, etc) you will likely have another drink. If you believe all things are good in moderation you might feel drinking until you blackout is OK as long as its only once a week!LOL If however you have another belief that says taking any substances until your unconcious cannot be good for you, you likely won't try and repeat the performance again. BELIEFS BELIEFS BELIEFS.

I just wanted to add...I think there is a serious problem with labelling someone as an alcoholic, that being that people often want justifcation for their behaviour. Its great isn't it? To blame your actions on your "illness". "I cant help what I drink...Im an alcoholic"...oh well lets just crack another one then!

Edited November 1, 2010 by rufanuf

[Mobi]

It must make you proud to believe that your homespun opinion, on a subject of which you clearly know very little, flies in the face of the overwhelming opinions of worldwide medical professionals who have categorised alcoholism as a disease.

However, you are entitled to your opinion and the last thing we wish to do here is argue the toss about whether it is or isn't a disease.

It will simply detract from the OP's problems, and trust me, there will never be any meeting of minds between people who have differing views on alcoholics - the causes and cures. There must be a billion words on this subject on the internet alone.

[rufanuf]

It must make you proud to believe that your homespun opinion, on a subject of which you clearly know very little, flies in the face of the overwhelming opinions of worldwide medical professionals who have categorised alcoholism as a disease.

However, you are entitled to your opinion and the last thing we wish to do here is argue the toss about whether it is or isn't a disease.

It will simply detract from the OP's problems, and trust me, there will never be any meeting of minds between people who have differing views on alcoholics - the causes and cures. There must be a billion words on this subject on the internet alone.

Why? I'll argue with you about it all day long, that's the point I just made...if you believe it, it will be so. The medical profession does very well out creating and curing ailments, some of them clearly real, others somewhat debatable, which in my opinion is the bracket that alcoholism falls into....if people wish to interact with a substance in their environemt in such a way that it brings them harm, then thats sad for them and those aorund them, but when we all start believing a lack of self control is a disease, the world is surely going to become a much more difficult place in which to live.

Edited November 1, 2010 by rufanuf

[Mobi]

It must make you proud to believe that your homespun opinion, on a subject of which you clearly know very little, flies in the face of the overwhelming opinions of worldwide medical professionals who have categorised alcoholism as a disease.

However, you are entitled to your opinion and the last thing we wish to do here is argue the toss about whether it is or isn't a disease.

It will simply detract from the OP's problems, and trust me, there will never be any meeting of minds between people who have differing views on alcoholics - the causes and cures. There must be a billion words on this subject on the internet alone.

Why? I'll argue with you about it all day long, that's the point I just made...if you believe it, it will be so. The medical profession does very well out creating and curing ailments, some of them clearly real, others somewhat debatable, which in my opinion is the bracket that alcoholism falls into....if people wish to interact with a substance in their environemt in such a way that it brings them harm, then thats sad for them and those aorund them, but when we all start believing a lack of self control is a disease, the world is surely going to become a much more difficult place in which to live.

You can argue with whoever you may wish - but not with me.

So we're now into conspiracy theories concerning the medical profession. I might have guessed. There are charlatans in every profession, but to assert that all the countless thousands of professionals who have dedicated their lives to studying the effects of alcohol and alcoholics are just in it for the money, and that their conclusions must be summarily dismissed, is just plain hogwash.

You, who have dedicated 5 minutes or so to thinking about this subject, clearly know better.

But by all means preach to the converted, I am sure you will find many to humour you.

[StreetCowboy]

Quite interesting reading the OP and all the replies. Personally I think drinking is a probelm when the person drinking decides it is, and not when others be they the AA, your wife, your kids or your work colleagues do.

If you cannot tell the difference between overwhelming self indulgence that negatively impacts on your relationships with others, and socially responsible drinking, then clearly you have a problem. I personally don't think drinking is a disease either, I mean what other disease do you know that leaves the room when the substance causing it does!?

Addiction is a physcological condition, a habit nothing more. Unfortunately human beings are prone to developing all kinds of habitual ways of interacting with their immediate environments, me, you and the "alcoholic"...we are all the same, some of those habits might be deemed healthy, others not, in fact they all just form the fabric of everyday life. The only thing that seperates all of us is our thought processes, our beliefs, what we personally believe is acceptable or otherwise. If you believe heavy drinking is fun and acceptable and that your body can cope with what you do, you will likely do it. If you think drinking is a great way to put off solving other problems you need to address in your life, you will likely do it. If you feel you can't stop drinking becuase it will make you feel bad (a hangover, hair of the dog, etc) you will likely have another drink. If you believe all things are good in moderation you might feel drinking until you blackout is OK as long as its only once a week!LOL If however you have another belief that says taking any substances until your unconcious cannot be good for you, you likely won't try and repeat the performance again. BELIEFS BELIEFS BELIEFS.

I just wanted to add...I think there is a serious problem with labelling someone as an alcoholic, that being that people often want justifcation for their behaviour. Its great isn't it? To blame your actions on your "illness". "I cant help what I drink...Im an alcoholic"...oh well lets just crack another one then!

I don't know many people who label themselves as alcoholic who are happy drinkers.

The key element of AA's twelve-step programme is to address the causes of drinking - generally attitudes that are deeply ingrained and often pre-date the drinking - and are not particularly related to drinking, but which dispose the individual to finding solace in 'an easy way out'. And some people, but not all, get a raging thirst when relatively mildly intoxicated. For them, the attitudes that lead initially to casual drinking, thirst, drunkenness and thence disaster. So to address those attitudes is a potential life-saver.

Anyway, if you had derived some constructive suggestions from your brief rant, then perhaps it might have had some useful merit. Keep working on it...

SC

[rufanuf]

It must make you proud to believe that your homespun opinion, on a subject of which you clearly know very little, flies in the face of the overwhelming opinions of worldwide medical professionals who have categorised alcoholism as a disease.

However, you are entitled to your opinion and the last thing we wish to do here is argue the toss about whether it is or isn't a disease.

It will simply detract from the OP's problems, and trust me, there will never be any meeting of minds between people who have differing views on alcoholics - the causes and cures. There must be a billion words on this subject on the internet alone.

Why? I'll argue with you about it all day long, that's the point I just made...if you believe it, it will be so. The medical profession does very well out creating and curing ailments, some of them clearly real, others somewhat debatable, which in my opinion is the bracket that alcoholism falls into....if people wish to interact with a substance in their environemt in such a way that it brings them harm, then thats sad for them and those aorund them, but when we all start believing a lack of self control is a disease, the world is surely going to become a much more difficult place in which to live.

You can argue with whoever you may wish - but not with me.

So we're now into conspiracy theories concerning the medical profession. I might have guessed. There are charlatans in every profession, but to assert that all the countless thousands of professionals who have dedicated their lives to studying the effects of alcohol and alcoholics are just in it for the money, and that their conclusions must be summarily dismissed, is just plain hogwash.

You, who have dedicated 5 minutes or so to thinking about this subject, clearly know better.

But by all means preach to the converted, I am sure you will find many to humour you.

I know far more about it than you know. The only difference between us is that I choose not to believe that addictions and habits are diseases, and have followed the medical doctrine, and I have not and will not be led to believe that we are determined by substances outside of the body. You choose to believe

we are. It's true that over time substances can have a physiological effects on the body, but until you develop an ACTUAL disease from your self abuse you can reverse those effects by abstaining. If that was not true what would be the point in trying to "Give Up"?

Edited November 1, 2010 by rufanuf

[powderpuff]

Only another alcoholic will have any concept of what the OP is suffering.

Which is why AA works.

Been there done that.

This is like an obese person saying. "I'll just have the one piece of cheesecake" It doesn't work.

[rufanuf]

Quite interesting reading the OP and all the replies. Personally I think drinking is a probelm when the person drinking decides it is, and not when others be they the AA, your wife, your kids or your work colleagues do.

If you cannot tell the difference between overwhelming self indulgence that negatively impacts on your relationships with others, and socially responsible drinking, then clearly you have a problem. I personally don't think drinking is a disease either, I mean what other disease do you know that leaves the room when the substance causing it does!?

Addiction is a physcological condition, a habit nothing more. Unfortunately human beings are prone to developing all kinds of habitual ways of interacting with their immediate environments, me, you and the "alcoholic"...we are all the same, some of those habits might be deemed healthy, others not, in fact they all just form the fabric of everyday life. The only thing that seperates all of us is our thought processes, our beliefs, what we personally believe is acceptable or otherwise. If you believe heavy drinking is fun and acceptable and that your body can cope with what you do, you will likely do it. If you think drinking is a great way to put off solving other problems you need to address in your life, you will likely do it. If you feel you can't stop drinking becuase it will make you feel bad (a hangover, hair of the dog, etc) you will likely have another drink. If you believe all things are good in moderation you might feel drinking until you blackout is OK as long as its only once a week!LOL If however you have another belief that says taking any substances until your unconcious cannot be good for you, you likely won't try and repeat the performance again. BELIEFS BELIEFS BELIEFS.

I just wanted to add...I think there is a serious problem with labelling someone as an alcoholic, that being that people often want justifcation for their behaviour. Its great isn't it? To blame your actions on your "illness". "I cant help what I drink...Im an alcoholic"...oh well lets just crack another one then!

I don't know many people who label themselves as alcoholic who are happy drinkers.

The key element of AA's twelve-step programme is to address the causes of drinking - generally attitudes that are deeply ingrained and often pre-date the drinking - and are not particularly related to drinking, but which dispose the individual to finding solace in 'an easy way out'. And some people, but not all, get a raging thirst when relatively mildly intoxicated. For them, the attitudes that lead initially to casual drinking, thirst, drunkenness and thence disaster. So to address those attitudes is a potential life-saver.

Anyway, if you had derived some constructive suggestions from your brief rant, then perhaps it might have had some useful merit. Keep working on it...

SC

I thought I just did? And you repeated it. Change your beliefs. Identify what it is that makes drinking an easy way out and chnage it. Once again your proving by your very statement that alcoholism is not a disease, not in the physical certainly. I personally think labelling people is very dangerous, as do most people who understand the concepts of prejudice, racism, you name it, but anything that stereotypes people and places them in a box, in which they are expected to behave a certain way, that can certainly be as destructive as it is constructive, if the label is widely percieved as being a negative one.

[powderpuff]

To the OP:

All you're going to get from here on in, I think, is AA-zealots saying "Go to AA or you'll die" .

For me personally; I don't want any idioit wasting my time & theirs by attending any AA meeting before they have hit bottom.

Stopping is so hard - only a few tiny fraction make it any length of time.

So unless you want to stop - AA can not & will not be of any use to you.

If people want to kill themselves it'as perfectly OK with me. Earth is way overpopulated anyway. Just ask the econuts.

[rufanuf]

Only another alcoholic will have any concept of what the OP is suffering.

Which is why AA works.

Been there done that.

This is like an obese person saying. "I'll just have the one piece of cheesecake" It doesn't work.

Not quite true. Someone who has to suffer some of the direct consequences of the self defeiting belief systems of an addicted person (an alcoholic) may also have some idea of the frustrations and difficulties...and the consequences of wasting ones life away abusing a substance. If AA helps people great, but I dare say the statistics wont prove a lot one way or the other (as many fall back off the wagon dont they?). Whatever the mechanism, ulitmately it is the individual that has to make the change.

[powderpuff]

Some on here were suggesting AA are out there recruting members. Not true. There are no dues or fees to join AA. We don't keep records. You are a member if you say you are.

You can say your name is Howard Hughes, Clark Gable, Cary Grant,Rock Hudson, James Cagney. Nobody cares. Which is why folks like Eric Clapton & Van Morrison can attend in relative anonomity.

Judges in Calif "punish" DUI convicts by sending them to us with little cards to have signed. We sign them but we don't care if the person attends the meeting or not. Nor do we care what the persons name is. We don't ask for ID. Only a tiny fraction of these want help. Wastes their time & ours.

No one can prove one way or the other if someone is a member nor for how long.

It's an honor system like the US military academies.

[corkman]

I personally think labelling people is very dangerous...... anything that stereotypes people and places them in a box, in which they are expected to behave a certain way, that can certainly be as destructive as it is constructive, if the label is widely percieved as being a negative one.

Rufanuf,

I don't necessarily agree (or disagree) with everything that you have posted, however I do agree with your opinion about labelling people......

I have come to the "in-progress" conclusion that I am not an alcohilic. This is my humble opinion, based on very little real knowledge of the subject, but in my mind an alcoholism is charterised by:

• a compulsion to drink and an inability to resist the urge to do so.....
• drinking for the sake of drinking, for the sake of getting drunk..... not giving regard to the company, the venue, the time of day, or the consequences.
• letting your drinking take precedence over family or social responsibilites
• negative impacts on relationships and the lives of the people around you.... friends, family, colleagues
• escapism - using drink and a drunken state to escape reality (on a regular basis)
• doing stupid things that you would not do sober, or dangerous things..... such as drunk driving, playing russian roulette, getting into fights or becoming abusive to yourself or others
• undergo a complete jackal & hyde change of personality or character ..... sure when we are "drunk" we are all less inhibited and more confident, and so we dance more, sing karoke, chat up birds...... but I mean becoming moody or aggressive or depressed or generally distastful.

I do not fit into any of those catagories - in my opinion, generally...... I am just a bit of a glutton..... its not the drink taking control of me, plunging me into a semi-zombie state, or anything like that.... for me, it is the same with a tub of ice cream or chocolate (I am not obese, with a BMI of about 25), or a nice meal, or watching a movie or a box-set series of 24 ....... its a flaw or character, and that is it.

That being said, I recognise that I do drink too much..... and that is not healthy...... I've got to learn to moderate that, just as I moderate what I eat (for weight) and what I watch on tv (for sleep.... LOL). If I do not moderate, then it will become a dissease, or an addiction, or whatever you want to call it......

Getting to the point:

I agree that putting someone in a box can do more harm than good, and could infact worsen a situation. Since starting this post I have spent alot of time and thankfully I am a fairly objective person and so I have not made myself depressed or whatever wondering what I may or may not be - it has however been stressful. I was getting to a point that I was paranoid about going for a few beers...... second guessing myself trying to determine that if I went was it a signal that I was out of control...... or was I simply going to be depriving myself of a social evening. I also been having thoughts about drinking at home - I've been getting an urge to get a bottle of wine to have with the mrs. while watching a movie..... sort of like when your told "do not make a sound" and you get this overwhelming urge to clear your throat or cough.

The moment of enlightenment came last week. I had an evening planned that I forgot to mention to the Mrs. previsouly, so when I phoned her at 5pm to tell her she seemed a bit off about it (I later found out she had a bad day, and just wanted me to come home to talk it over). So I immediately and without hesitation decided to come home instead, and cancelled the evening in exactly the same manner that I always would do. Whether or not I am alcoholic or not, and the "self control" question that I had been mulling over never even occured to me..... and at that point I realised that I need to make decisions on whether to go for the few beers on the basis of home-family and on what I want to do, and I need to stop stressing about whether or not I am sub-consciously yielding to alcholic urges.

Now - if I were not as objective and analytical as I am, and if I had formed the opinion that I was in fact an alcoholic, then the next time I go for a beer it would be a big issue, because it would be violation of the "rules" that as assigned to people that are labelled alcoholics. For example, as a catholic, sex-before-marriage or anything other than total monogomy is a mortal sin, however if I were of a different religious "label" then it would not be an issue at all and I could continue to live my life without the burden of guilt and all the negative psycological effects of that. So, I have concluded not to label or diagnose myself as an alcholic, but instead to resign myself to the fact I drink too much too quickly when I go out, which is irresponsbile and not physically healthy, and for my health (and by association for the wellbeing of my family) I need to reduce my alcohol intake and in terms of both volume and the rate of consumption. I simply drink too much, in the same way that I do not exercise enough - and both will take a little will power to over come, and every now and then I will get carried away and fall off the wagon - but that really is not such a big deal, everyone gets a bit too pissed sometimes, and so wehn I do I will not stress out of over it.

[Ijustwannateach]

Alcohol is not my particular issue, but I have been addressing other addictive tendencies and this diagram may give the OP pause for thought regarding his present behaviours.