Uk Pension, Changes Being Planned

[chiang mai]

An interesting article below regarding planned changes to the UK state pension:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1323447/The-140-pension-Huge-boost-stay-home-mums-married-couples-historic-shake-up.html

The good part: pension payments may increase to around £140 per person.

The other part: "it would be based on residency in Britain".

That other part is slightly troubling but is also unclear, I suppose we will have to wait and see what they have in mind but it's clear that one of the objectives of the planned change is to reduce operational and running costs, which apparently is quite high for ex-pats.

[phutoie2]

Ditto, just read a similar article on the on-line Guardian, 7,280 GBP for single and 14,560 for married couples.

No mention of UK based which if applied will be worrying.

Pension age for men and women to increase to age 66 from 2020, drat, I have to wait one more year!

[theoldgit]

The other part: "it would be based on residency in Britain".

The Daily Mail article actually says

The payment would be based on citizenship or residency, with British citizens or anyone who has been living in Britain for a fixed number of years qualifying.

Which I take to mean that you have to have been a British citizen actually living in the UK to qualify for a state retirement pension. I don't think/hope they are suggesting that to receive the pension you must actually be living in the UK.

I think the government of the day, if they wanted to be this radical, would need to weigh up the possibility of pensioners returning to the UK with no cash and being a drain on various recsourse, NHS, pension uplifts and the like.

Suppose we will have to wait for the Green Paper.

[flying]

Which I take to mean that you have to have been a British citizen actually living in the UK to qualify for a state retirement pension. I don't think/hope they are suggesting that to receive the pension you must actually be living in the UK.

I think the government of the day, if they wanted to be this radical, would need to weigh up the possibility of pensioners returning to the UK with no cash and being a drain on various resource, NHS, pension uplifts and the like.

I have seen folks mention the same thought regarding Social Security in the States

While I agree it is a hair brained idea to force folks to repatriate to collect benefits..

I am not so sure the drain of repatriated is as big as folks like to think.

After all these folks who have little more than pensions or SS will be back in the home country that paid it & spending it there & that is worth a lot to the paying country.

That also means all that recirculated money will get taxed again & again there at home at the outlets it is spent at with its workers etc.

As opposed to poor pensioners living & spending that same pension/SS money in another country which helps the paying home land not at all in any way except possible avoided costs associated with their poverty....Yet all those groups that supply those helping hands for the impoverished get their money from ?

Edited October 25, 2010 by flying

[chiang mai]

I agree it's a worrying point although I confess that I expect to see a point in time where UK and US state pensions are only paid to residents.

[Baht Simpson]

I agree it's a worrying point although I confess that I expect to see a point in time where UK and US state pensions are only paid to residents.

It's only a matter of time. I heard a while ago on the radio a Tory MP stating that there was support for state pensions to be paid only if you have been resident in the U.K. for the ten tears prior to the first payment. Without doubt the longer term goal is to cut out pension payments to non-residents completely, however much we have contributed. This new system of not basing the pension on contributions is the first step and will make it much easier.

[apetley]

Hopefully it will not come to that.

I can see it being based on 1, citizenship and 2, residency if your not a citizen but actively contributing.

Think of all the 100s of thousands of expats worldwide who will be headed 'home' if their pensions no longer exist.

[TexasRanger]

Hopefully it will not come to that.

I can see it being based on 1, citizenship and 2, residency if your not a citizen but actively contributing.

Think of all the 100s of thousands of expats worldwide who will be headed 'home' if their pensions no longer exist.

Head home for 90 odd quid a week???? Or has the UK pension gone up?

[chiang mai]

Hopefully it will not come to that.

I can see it being based on 1, citizenship and 2, residency if your not a citizen but actively contributing.

Think of all the 100s of thousands of expats worldwide who will be headed 'home' if their pensions no longer exist.

Head home for 90 odd quid a week???? Or has the UK pension gone up?

The initial post spells out the details of what is being discussed currently.

[somtampet]

Ditto, just read a similar article on the on-line Guardian, 7,280 GBP for single and 14,560 for married couples.

No mention of UK based which if applied will be worrying.

Pension age for men and women to increase to age 66 from 2020, drat, I have to wait one more year!

The article stated citizenship also,based on how many years one lived in the uk so i dont think there will be a problem with Living in Thailand.

[scotsman]

This is just another Torry policy to cut spending and is again unfair and unjust,this policy will also be breaking the human rights laws for all the BRITISH pensioners that live in other countries that have paid in full all there contributions. The good news is that this coalition government will not be in power in 2015 I just can't see it.Now if some how this new reform was ever made law then I could see a lot of new court cases against the Government in the European court of human rights. It will cost the Government a great deal more when all the British pensioners have to come back to the uk to live and claim all there benefits. So in this new policy anyone who is living in the uk and is a British citizen even if they have never worked or paid anything to the state will get this pension at 66 but all the other British pensioners that don't live in the uk and do pay tax and have paid in full will get nothing is that a fair policy I rest my case.

Regards

Scotsman

[thaimate]

I am pretty certain that this govt WILL be in power in 2015 despite what Scotsman thinks(you could pin a rossete on a donkey in scotland and it would get more votes than a tory).

but as to the proposals re the pension ,it is a much better idea than Gormlases of having lots of different depts running things ,thus having lots more people working for the state and voting Labour.

I really cannot see the govt just stopping our pensions because we no longer live in the UK ,as it really would mean thousands of old people ,some with young familys here in Thailand having to return home and with nowhere to live throwing themselves on the mercy of the state.

Can you imagine the headlines in the papers?

[neil324]

This is just another Torry policy to cut spending and is again unfair and unjust,this policy will also be breaking the human rights laws for all the BRITISH pensioners that live in other countries that have paid in full all there contributions. The good news is that this coalition government will not be in power in 2015 I just can't see it.Now if some how this new reform was ever made law then I could see a lot of new court cases against the Government in the European court of human rights. It will cost the Government a great deal more when all the British pensioners have to come back to the uk to live and claim all there benefits. So in this new policy anyone who is living in the uk and is a British citizen even if they have never worked or paid anything to the state will get this pension at 66 but all the other British pensioners that don't live in the uk and do pay tax and have paid in full will get nothing is that a fair policy I rest my case.

Regards

Scotsman

Right, so you don't think spending needs cutting then?

[elshaheen]

Talk to those who get their pensions from Social Security in the U.S. They won't be getting their cost of living increases, which is roughly about $200 a month for the second year in a row.

[chiang mai]

Talk to those who get their pensions from Social Security in the U.S. They won't be getting their cost of living increases, which is roughly about $200 a month for the second year in a row.

Rubbish, the average monthly US SSC pension payment is under USD 2k per month and official inflation is almost negative hence COLA is zip!

[ESB7]

Its Citezenship so no problems for expats, great news for my 3 kids with dual nationality:rolleyes:

[ESB7]

Hopefully it will not come to that.

I can see it being based on 1, citizenship and 2, residency if your not a citizen but actively contributing.

Think of all the 100s of thousands of expats worldwide who will be headed 'home' if their pensions no longer exist.

Head home for 90 odd quid a week???? Or has the UK pension gone up?

It would be 140 quid, and expat retirees would need to head home if their pensions were stopped unless they were actually living in the UK...

[w11guy]

I agree it's a worrying point although I confess that I expect to see a point in time where UK and US state pensions are only paid to residents.

This will never happen in the UK, because it would be illegal under European law.

I think at the moment expats get their pension paid abroad, but doesn't go up in value while you are away. So if you live to be 100, your pension will be worth next to nothing in your later years. Pensioners are a huge drain on the health service, so I think it is in the government's interest to pay pensions to people living abroad.

I suppose the answer is to make sure you make your own private pension arrangements and don't rely on the state pension.

I read that the residency part would be based on how many years you lived in UK, not if you were there when pension was paid. So if you moved to Thailand at 50, you robably have enough "UK years" to claim the pension. This is a vey long-term aim though and won't happen for 5-10 years.

[w11guy]

This is just another Torry policy to cut spending and is again unfair and unjust,this policy will also be breaking the human rights laws for all the BRITISH pensioners that live in other countries that have paid in full all there contributions. The good news is that this coalition government will not be in power in 2015 I just can't see it.Now if some how this new reform was ever made law then I could see a lot of new court cases against the Government in the European court of human rights. It will cost the Government a great deal more when all the British pensioners have to come back to the uk to live and claim all there benefits. So in this new policy anyone who is living in the uk and is a British citizen even if they have never worked or paid anything to the state will get this pension at 66 but all the other British pensioners that don't live in the uk and do pay tax and have paid in full will get nothing is that a fair policy I rest my case.

Regards

Scotsman

This isn't a spending cut. It's intended to increase pensions by over 40% for single people and almost 80% for couples. How can you call that a spending cut or unfair.

No human rights laws have been broken. The green papaer hasn't even been published yet! Most of what you say won't happen, so stop ranting.

[w11guy]

Hopefully it will not come to that.

I can see it being based on 1, citizenship and 2, residency if your not a citizen but actively contributing.

Think of all the 100s of thousands of expats worldwide who will be headed 'home' if their pensions no longer exist.

Head home for 90 odd quid a week???? Or has the UK pension gone up?

There are 2-3 million UK pensioners living in other EU countries. Many rely on their UK state pension to make ends meet. Without this they would have to return home.

Edited October 25, 2010 by w11guy

[mommysboy]

Hopefully it will not come to that.

I can see it being based on 1, citizenship and 2, residency if your not a citizen but actively contributing.

Think of all the 100s of thousands of expats worldwide who will be headed 'home' if their pensions no longer exist.

Head home for 90 odd quid a week???? Or has the UK pension gone up?

There are 2-3 million UK pensioners living in other EU countries. Many rely on their UK state pension to make ends meet. Without this they would have to return home.

The argument would be that it is a terrible drain on UK finances. If pensioners were spending in the UK that would be fine, creating jobs and pushing money around - the multiplier effect.

The party is over for everyone in UK as we have been living beyond our means for a few decades, pensioners included in this problem. Frankly, I doubt anyone retiriing at present ever paid in enough in contributions to make their argument stick.

But even so a pensioner in the UK benefits from a good welfare service, including state of the art drugs for diseases like Alzheimers.

Sadly, arguments like it's my money I can spend it where I like don't apply IMHO, as your money was gambled away recklessly by a bunch of social psychopaths a few years ago. In this respect I don't see that you have any more recall than a Northern Rock Shareholder, or someone that unwisely invested in the stock market a couple of years ago.

When you live in a foreign country- you take your chances. Thankfully UK is sufficiently benign to allow a repatriation without real penalty if done cleverly and discreetly.

[nong38]

Hopefully it will not come to that.

I can see it being based on 1, citizenship and 2, residency if your not a citizen but actively contributing.

Think of all the 100s of thousands of expats worldwide who will be headed 'home' if their pensions no longer exist.

And straight onto the housing list

[w11guy]

Hopefully it will not come to that.

I can see it being based on 1, citizenship and 2, residency if your not a citizen but actively contributing.

Think of all the 100s of thousands of expats worldwide who will be headed 'home' if their pensions no longer exist.

Head home for 90 odd quid a week???? Or has the UK pension gone up?

There are 2-3 million UK pensioners living in other EU countries. Many rely on their UK state pension to make ends meet. Without this they would have to return home.

The argument would be that it is a terrible drain on UK finances. If pensioners were spending in the UK that would be fine, creating jobs and pushing money around - the multiplier effect.

The party is over for everyone in UK as we have been living beyond our means for a few decades, pensioners included in this problem. Frankly, I doubt anyone retiriing at present ever paid in enough in contributions to make their argument stick.

But even so a pensioner in the UK benefits from a good welfare service, including state of the art drugs for diseases like Alzheimers.

Sadly, arguments like it's my money I can spend it where I like don't apply IMHO, as your money was gambled away recklessly by a bunch of social psychopaths a few years ago. In this respect I don't see that you have any more recall than a Northern Rock Shareholder, or someone that unwisely invested in the stock market a couple of years ago.

When you live in a foreign country- you take your chances. Thankfully UK is sufficiently benign to allow a repatriation without real penalty if done cleverly and discreetly.

I just can't imagine the governemt stopping the payments. There are just too many people involved. Stop the payments to 3-4 million people and they won't be in governement for much longer. Even if they want to stop the payments they won't, for the simpe reason that 3-4 million people is a lot of votes. For UK pensioners living in EU countrues, it just wouldn't stand up in court. The government won't do it.

Edited October 25, 2010 by w11guy

[chiang mai]

Before folks get carried away with conjecture please remember that these changes are at the green paper stage, nothing has been agreed and any implementation is unlikely before 2015.

[scotsman]

This is just another Torry policy to cut spending and is again unfair and unjust,this policy will also be breaking the human rights laws for all the BRITISH pensioners that live in other countries that have paid in full all there contributions. The good news is that this coalition government will not be in power in 2015 I just can't see it.Now if some how this new reform was ever made law then I could see a lot of new court cases against the Government in the European court of human rights. It will cost the Government a great deal more when all the British pensioners have to come back to the uk to live and claim all there benefits. So in this new policy anyone who is living in the uk and is a British citizen even if they have never worked or paid anything to the state will get this pension at 66 but all the other British pensioners that don't live in the uk and do pay tax and have paid in full will get nothing is that a fair policy I rest my case.

Regards

Scotsman

This isn't a spending cut. It's intended to increase pensions by over 40% for single people and almost 80% for couples. How can you call that a spending cut or unfair.

No human rights laws have been broken. The green papaer hasn't even been published yet! Most of what you say won't happen, so stop ranting.

I can only read into what is being said in the newspaper report what this Government wants to do regarding this policy that to pay for the large increase to pensioners that live in the UK only, they will cut spending costs by removing all the qualifying years and means testing and the many jobs of people who do the checking( more redundancy payments and loss of tax revenue). Now you will get your pension for free at 66 rich or poor but only if you live in the UK and your a British citizen and resident. Now I may be ranting but I have never in my life been given anything from any British Government for Free, so who is going to pay for it? looks like all the British tax paying national insurance paying people who live outside the uk that will not qualify for a pension and all the jobs of people working in Government Departments. Now if this green paper tells a different story that all British citizens will get this free pension at 66 even if they live outside the uk I will eat my words. Because that would be a fair policy for every old age British pensioner but not so fair for all the people who will lose there jobs. Now we wait and see what the full story is when the green paper is leaked but to answer your human rights question If this policy became law and they did stop the pensions for people living outside the uk as it will be based on residency then that would be breaking the human right laws and may be even the European ones as well. End of Rant

Regards

Scotsman

[w11guy]

This is just another Torry policy to cut spending and is again unfair and unjust,this policy will also be breaking the human rights laws for all the BRITISH pensioners that live in other countries that have paid in full all there contributions. The good news is that this coalition government will not be in power in 2015 I just can't see it.Now if some how this new reform was ever made law then I could see a lot of new court cases against the Government in the European court of human rights. It will cost the Government a great deal more when all the British pensioners have to come back to the uk to live and claim all there benefits. So in this new policy anyone who is living in the uk and is a British citizen even if they have never worked or paid anything to the state will get this pension at 66 but all the other British pensioners that don't live in the uk and do pay tax and have paid in full will get nothing is that a fair policy I rest my case.

Regards

Scotsman

This isn't a spending cut. It's intended to increase pensions by over 40% for single people and almost 80% for couples. How can you call that a spending cut or unfair.

No human rights laws have been broken. The green papaer hasn't even been published yet! Most of what you say won't happen, so stop ranting.

I can only read into what is being said in the newspaper report what this Government wants to do regarding this policy that to pay for the large increase to pensioners that live in the UK only, they will cut spending costs by removing all the qualifying years and means testing and the many jobs of people who do the checking( more redundancy payments and loss of tax revenue). Now you will get your pension for free at 66 rich or poor but only if you live in the UK and your a British citizen and resident. Now I may be ranting but I have never in my life been given anything from any British Government for Free, so who is going to pay for it? looks like all the British tax paying national insurance paying people who live outside the uk that will not qualify for a pension and all the jobs of people working in Government Departments. Now if this green paper tells a different story that all British citizens will get this free pension at 66 even if they live outside the uk I will eat my words. Because that would be a fair policy for every old age British pensioner but not so fair for all the people who will lose there jobs. Now we wait and see what the full story is when the green paper is leaked but to answer your human rights question If this policy became law and they did stop the pensions for people living outside the uk as it will be based on residency then that would be breaking the human right laws and may be even the European ones as well. End of Rant

Regards

Scotsman

No-one has said that you have to living in the UK to receive the pension.

Yes, pen-pushers will lose their jobs. I'm sure most people would prefer that pensioners get extra money rather than pensioners getting less just so some people can shuffle papers around. If you had your way you'd probably halve the pension and create more pen-pusher nonsense jobs.

Edited October 25, 2010 by w11guy

[nong38]

A ot of this si down to interpretation. IDS wants to simplfy the benefts/pension system and reckons by doing that that he can save some dosh, good man. Now I think that might work to our advantage in that they might just restore everyone to full pension rights. The other thing is that if they dont know you are here, dont tell them then they wont freeze your pension. If you have been in touch with the Embassy, paid the monye, got the note which verfies your pension so you van avoid the visa runs, well the cats out of the bag. I thought about all this before I came out here and was originally going to do the same, shelved that one pretty quick in the long run you lose. Once you have been to the GB embassy you are sold down the pension river. I can think of ways round this if you have not been. But lets hope for better stuff from IDS and human rights can come back again. At any opportunity on the mail comments, I tell about my poor dad who paid taxes all his life and now th gvt has frozen his pension, but can still send out money for overseas aid, scrap the harriers etc. Get stuck in!

[scotsman]

No-one has said that you have to living in the UK to receive the pension.

Yes, pen-pushers will lose their jobs. I'm sure most people would prefer that pensioners get extra money rather than pensioners getting less just so some people can shuffle papers around. If you had your way you'd probably halve the pension and create more pen-pusher nonsense jobs.

This was the quote in the newspaper article ( The payment would be based on citizenship or residency, with British citizens or anyone who has been living in Britain for a fixed number of years qualifying ) end quote. Which one it will it be? To save the most money it will be Residency just as the Nation health service policy.

I don't disagree with the you on the pen-pushing jobs that will have to go but as usual this government will have to pay more costs in the end in redundancy payments and loss of tax revenue we are talking about thousands of jobs. How will they find new jobs for these people or do you care, now if they found new employment for them before they throw them on the scrap heap then that would be ok. If all pensions were to go up to all pensioners and not take where they live into it I am all in favor of this policy but I think it will snow in Thailand first.

Regards

Scotsman

[DoubtingThomas]

What I find most worrying here is the number of posters who seem to have drunk the cool aid. I'm not about to argue that all western governments have been overspending, but quite why pensions and SS should be so high on their list of targets, I don't really know, other than it's a big number so an easy target. I understand that lots of us are outside their country of birth, but the fact is that just pulling our pensions is a drop in the bucket. Most pension/SS recipients live in their home country. I've not done the calculations on my UK pension, for which I'm fully paid up, but in the US in the time I have worked here I and my employers have paid $200,000 into social security and $80,000 into medicare. If I take the average market return over those years and reduce it by 2% my social security alone would now be worth north of $400,000. Indeed, if the Government had allowed me to put that money into my 401K along with my regular contributions to it I'd be well past the $1M mark. I'll take that deal and no SS any day, thank you very much. I'll also take those medicare payments having been put into a private scheme rather than the Government; I'm certain I would not need to worry about medical for the rest of my life. The various Governments owe this money to us all; it is a legal debt and a debt of honor. These damned fly by night, here today, gone tomorrow politicians (thank you, Robin Day) who pissed our contributions away in the past and, as five minute wonders failed to see, or even look, beyond the next election, allowed this situation to develop. By acquiescing to them shafting us, we let them take the easy way out. They want the bloody political job; fine, let them find out it's not easy and they have to find other solutions to their predecessor's profligacy. That's what they are there for.

Rant over. I do agree with the posters who cite legal problems in doing it. It will be a nightmare for the UK with EEC residents, for sure, and their are global reciprocal pension agreements that need to be dealt with too. Government certainly needs to get out of the pensions business, not least because they are a bunch of self serving crooks who have demonstrated they can't handle it, but they have an at least 50 year obligation to meet. They need to get their skates on.

[britmaveric]

Simple - just keep an UK address.