Foreigner Got Stabbed To Death At Rachada

[Jai Dee]

Tourists want to go out and have fun and at the same time expect some protection from the police and the law.

The traffic lights at the Rachada/Rama IX intersection could hardly be classed as a tourist area.

My condolences to your friend hUsh.

Sorry I don't get your point.

They were tourists or expats that recieved little help from the police and were victims of mindless violence.

Tourists are allowed to venture outside Suk and Patpong aren't they?

I'm not saying that tourists shouldn't go outside designated areas... please don't misunderstand me.

My point was that the location of the attack was not in a "touristy" area and you would certainly not see any tourists there at 4:30 in the morning.

From the OP... "I and my friend Y, who studies Marketing with me at Bangkok University International College"... shows both to be students... I don't think this has anything to do woth tourists.

"Victims of violence"... definitely.

"Mindless"... I'm not so sure...

[WhiteShiva]

At the risk of labouring a point I think that the main issue here is that violent incidents against farangs seem to be on the increase in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fact or speculation? Anything to back up this claim? I have lived here for a while, and I have been unable to detect any trend whatsoever.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You may want to start reading the papers a bit more and start talking to people about what is going on around you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do, so how come you are so much better informed than me? I also speak to members of the international and local press here in Bangkok from time to time, and I am pretty sure that they would have been all over a theory like yours if it had any merit.

The fact that you have an "impression" that there are suddenly a huge increase in attackes on foreigners is just that - an impression.

As long as there has been foreigners in Thailand, there has been a chance of some of them being killed. Shit happens. There are bad apples here in LOS as well - nobody argues with that.

But unless you can provide some reliable figures, I will dispute your claim. I feel as safe here as I did when I first came her in '98 - probably safer, actually. I was fairly ignorant back then, and thought that a country that had just been through what Thailand had, would be full of muggers, thieves and mudereres - I was wrong.

If you absolutley have to wander around drunk in the early hours of the morning, or drive a motorcycle in the middle of the night, I doubt there are many places you would be safer than Bangkok.

We are not talking absolutes here - as the OP showed, bad things do happen here. My point is simply that these bad incidents do not seem to happen with any greater frequency than in the past. And in most cases where there is violence towards foreigners, the victim is either partly at fault, or could have avoided the whole incident by being a bit streetsmart.

As for the OP's story - mistaken identity? Believe the victim was from Bhutan - perhaps mistaken for a Thai with whom the perpetrators had a score to settle?

Edited August 3, 2005 by WhiteShiva

[bino]

My point was that the location of the attack was not in a "touristy" area and you would certainly not see any tourists there at 4:30 in the morning.

Beg to differ on this point.....

It may not be your idea of a tourist spot, but the fact is that the Fortune Hotel (Part of the Fortune Complex, on whose doorstep this whole ordeal occurred) along with all of the other hotels and "entertainment venues" on Ratchadaphisek Road are extremely popular with Japanese tourists who come to Thailand and spend obscene amounts of money.

I have seen Japanese tourists walking in the area late at night (Not 4:30 AM mind you... I'm one of the people who prefers to be home at that time) and can imagine them walking them walking back to Fortune Hotel in the wee hours after being "entertained" at Champs Elysees or similar. Could you imagine the situation that would be at hand if this had happened to one of them?

My deepest sympathies to Hush and the surviving victim who have lost a friend.

Edited August 3, 2005 by bino

[Jai Dee]

It may not be your idea of a tourist spot, but the fact is that the Fortune Hotel (Part of the Fortune Complex, on whose doorstep this whole ordeal occurred) along with all of the other hotels and "entertainment venues" on Ratchadaphisek Road are extremely popular with Japanese tourists who come to Thailand and spend obscene amounts of money.

Actually you are correct bino... I had forgotten about the Asian tourists who frequent those "establishments".

My deepest sympathies to Hush and the surviving victim who have lost a friend.

Hear hear.

[meom]

Most of the entertainment complexes Bino hints at are after Robinson's and quitte a long walk from Fortune.

[hUsh]

As for the OP's story - mistaken identity?  Believe the victim was from Bhutan - perhaps mistaken for a Thai with whom the perpetrators had a score to settle?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what we all speculated and/or those people might have been on the state of high consumption of alcohol and/or drugs and just picked on him (Y)...

Still very depressing and disturbing to know that this situation could happen here and with someone I know. I maybe naive knowing that accidents and violence like these happen all the time not just here but in any other cities as well..

And again thanks for all those who took their time in reading the OP and sent their sympathies..

Edited August 3, 2005 by hUsh

[bkkmadness]

Very sorry to hear of your loss Hush, terrible thing to happen and even more shocking because I live not far from that area. I too lost a friend earlier this year, (though not to violence) and it will be a difficult time, but for sure you will come through it.

To Jai Dee and I think Bino, it has to be said that many more European tourists are starting to head into that area since the subway started up, and especially with the late night closing of bars at soi 6.

[jomama]

I don't know if violence is on the increase or reporting is better -- even groups such as this to spread info.

When I first got to Chiang Mai there were stories about a couple of farangs who had been killed, but back then it was only passed along world-of-mouth. In the intervening years there have always been reports (a few a year) about untimely deaths.

But given the rapidly changing nature of Thai society, it could be that violence in general in on the increase.

I know in the villages there has always been quite a bit of violence (some of the long-time Chiang Mai residents who live in villages have attested to that). That is Thai-on-Thai, and probably doesn't even make the Thai newspapers. While the general populace is not rebellious, I think there has always been a lot of personal violence in Thailand (IMHO).

[CarlBkk]

To Jai Dee and I think Bino, it has to be said that many more European tourists are starting to head into that area since the subway started up, and especially with the late night closing of bars at soi 6.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely. I'd say that Ratchada is on the tourist map now - the big clubs feature in travel publications and the open-air all-night bars/restaurants do see a lot of foreigners. I go there occasionally and nearly always meet foreign tourists who've found out about it, past 4.30am. The only dangers I'd noticed are the occasional table fight (normally the Thais are friendly with foreigners there), and the kateoys trying to get in your taxi at the bottom of the soi!

Motorcycle gangs are a different story. They have little to do and little to lose - I've seen them screaming down roads laughing at the persuing police car, intimidating a foreigner with his Thai girlfriend in a taxi stopped at lights and generally knowing they have safety in numbers (weapons?). It wouldn't take much for them to start something and there's a lot in the papers about the problems they cause.

I think the victim of the Ratchada Road attack was incredibly unlucky - a robbery might have been a possibility but it sounds not the motive in this case, so mistaken identity (unless he unknowingly p*ssed them off in some way) is probably the only other cause, even though some say that Thais never forget a face...

[meelousee]

I have known this story, it has happened two times I know of, to university students. It is always about either a girl, or drugs in both cases a stupid crime of ignorance.

sorry for your loss.... I doubt you hear from the cops again. It has been 12 years and I have yet to even find out what happened to a friend or why.

[Curt]

I have known this story, it has happened two times I know of, to university students. It is always about either a girl, or drugs in both cases a stupid crime of ignorance.

sorry for your loss....  I doubt you hear from the cops again. It has been 12 years and I have yet to even find out what happened to a friend or why.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is strange in Bangkok, the "gang" wars are typically between Uni students!

Forget drugs or babes; a lot of it is "school spirit"!

We're you wearing the school "colors"?

Ratcha has long been a "cruising" venue.

Lots of street racing and general hanging-out goes on.

[Nam Kao]

Why didnt the killers also attack the driver, because this was payback for something

[hUsh]

A few progress has been done, just spoke to my friend and he spent hours talking to the police. So far the police has some lead on this... They are now after 6 gang kids in their late teens.. Apparently, similar incident happened on saturday night with bats and knives. They've got to be stopped!

Why didnt the killers also attack the driver, because this was payback for something

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and we're thankful that he wasn't really harmed! still no motive, just speculations of mistaken identity or random act of violence..

[Curt]

A few progress has been done, just spoke to my friend and he spent hours talking to the police. So far the police has some lead on this... They are now after 6 gang kids in their late teens.. Apparently, similar incident happened on saturday night with bats and knives. They've got to be stopped!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is actually a bit surprising.

Does "Y" come from a wealthy family?

Maybe it made some press.

Maybe it's just lip service from the police.

[jomama]

... (unless he unknowingly p*ssed them off in some way) is probably the only other cause, even though some say that Thais never forget a face...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting after the discussion about violence on Khao San Road... many posters thought the farangs did something to "deserve" it (I was 50-50 on that -- it's possible). But most here seem to sympathize with the victim (perhaps rightly).

Actually, what WERE you guys doing out at 4:30 a.m. (I wake up, not go to sleep, soon after that)?

[Indo-Siam]

Firstly - I have sympathy for someone sitting on a motorcycle at a red light, who gets violently mugged - and I hope they catch the thugs - and "terminate the threat with extreme prejudice".

Then we get to the question of whether Bangkok is turning into "Bordertown" ala Mad Maxx.

The argument that is playing out in this thread seems to be between two populations:

Population #1 - Wakes up at 6:30 am, heads out for the day around 11:00 am, frequents the main drags of Bangkok during the day, starts drinking beer around 6:00 pm, enjoys himself until about 11:00 pm, then heads home - maybe with a bit of a buzz on. This population sees and lives in a Bangkok that is civilized and safe. Any police that this population encounters are generally involved in keeping order, and keeping traffic flowing.

Population #2 - Wakes up at noon-thirty, heads out the door as the sun goes down, starts drinking at 6:00 pm, amid what he considers the boring, workaday crowd, starts getting really warmed up around midnight - whines incessantly about most bars shutting down at 1:00 am, eats his "lunch" on the streets, amid the post-1:00 am spectacle, seeks out the after hours places, and generally starts wandering toward home, pissed out of his mind, around 4:30 am. The Bangkok that this population lives in is full of drunks, pickpockets, criminals, hooligans, Thai street gangs, the hardest corebargirls, and policemen whose main business comes from "guarding the nightlife establishments." In the Bangkok this population lives in, 80% of everyone on the street is drunk or spaced out on yaaba - including all taxi, car, and motorcycle riders - and fights are common - fueled by alcohol, frustration, testosterone, etc. Crime is relatively common, and blood flows fairly often.

Here is the point: If you live in the world of Population #1, you are going to go years - maybe decades - without encountering much trouble here. You can retire and live out your life here in safety.

If you live for years as part of population #2, it is statistically almost certain that you are going to eventually be in the wrong place at the wrong time - and pay a heavy price. You are going to have a much bleaker view of Bangkok, and wonder what is wrong with someone who reports "suuny days and blue skies" from the other (daytime) world.

I've lived in Bangkok going on six years. 95% of all bad incidents I have seen since coming here occurred between 11:00 pm and 3:00 am - and I have no idea what hapopens after 3:00 am. I decided years ago to generally try to be off the streets by midnight - and live longer. Nowadays, I almost never see any trouble - because I'm home before it starts.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[Jai Dee]

I've lived in Bangkok going on six years.  95% of all bad incidents I have seen since coming here occurred between 11:00 pm and 3:00 am - and I have no idea what hapopens after 3:00 am.  I decided years ago to generally try to be off the streets by midnight - and live longer.  Nowadays, I almost never see any trouble - because I'm home before it starts.

Good post Indo-Siam.

Very true.

[george]

Update:

Bhutanese student killed in Bangkok

BANGKOK: -- A 27-year old Bhutanese student was beaten to death in Bangkok on August 1, reportedly by a group of boys on motorcycles.

Yeshey Nidup, a final year student at the Bangkok University International College, succumbed to injuries after he was admitted to the Rajavithi Hospital in Thailand early in the morning on July 30.

According to a statement by a friend who was with Yeshey Nidup at the time, and was the only eye-witness, the two boys were on a motorcycle, waiting at a red light traffic junction at about 4:40 am, when they were suddenly attacked by three boys on motorcycles. He reported that the attackers beat Yeshey Nidup with sticks and a knife and it was some time before the victim was taken to the hospital.

“I strongly believe that the motorcycle gang members who attacked Yeshey were on yabba (a local drug) and just wanted to have fun beating somebody up or may be they were after some other guy,” the statement said.

A statement from the Bhutanese embassy stated that Yeshey Nidup had sustained serious injuries on his head, hand, back, and leg and was in a critical condition when he was admitted to the hospital.

The Bhutanese embassy in Bangkok has requested the Thai government to investigate the incident. No details were available from the Thai police.

Meanwhile, Yeshey Nidup’s family members were shocked by the incident. “It was only a few months more before he would have been among us,” said one relative.

His body will be flown to Bhutan today.

--Kuensel Bhutan Online 2005-08-03

[dfwbkk]

Here is the point:  If you live in the world of Population #1, you are going to go years - maybe decades - without encountering much trouble here.  You can retire and live out your life here in safety.

If you live for years as part of population #2, it is statistically almost certain that you are going to eventually be in the wrong place at the wrong time - and pay a heavy price.  You are going to have a much bleaker view of Bangkok, and wonder what is wrong with someone who reports "sunny days and blue skies" from the other (daytime) world.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great observation there Steve. But you must've been out and around past curfew once or twice yourself to form that opinion though, right?

Nevertheless, nice post!!

On the topic of the OP - it saddens me deeply that something like this can happen so seemingly without major law enforcement activities to rectify the situation...

/// dfw

[WhiteShiva]

Population #1 -  Wakes up at 6:30 am, heads out for the day around 11:00 am, frequents the main drags of Bangkok during the day, starts drinking beer around 6:00 pm, enjoys himself until about 11:00 pm, then heads home - maybe with a bit of a buzz on. 

Population #2  - Wakes up at noon-thirty, heads out the door as the sun goes down, starts drinking at 6:00 pm, amid what he considers the boring, workaday crowd, starts getting really warmed up around midnight - whines incessantly about most bars shutting down at 1:00 am, eats his "lunch" on the streets, amid the post-1:00 am spectacle, seeks out the after hours places, and generally starts wandering toward home, pissed out of his mind, around 4:30 am. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about those of us who actually have to work for a living - don't we count?

Seriously, though - Good post Indo-Siam. And I still believe it is possible to have a good time here and be safe.

[frond]

Agree. I'm definitely part of "Population #1" although I haven't been to a bar in months, nor have I been drunk even at home. How about "Population Good Boy #1"?

[AsiaWolfie]

I wonder why this in the Bangkok Post just today, 4th of August. maybe they had to read in TV first to know about it.... cause the police didnt care.... or maybe those policeguys were too busy protecting "their" nightlife places.....

its a very good comment you gave, Indo-Siam. And oh so true..... I must say, I lived at MANY places in Asia and I have seen 34 countries, but Thailand is the most dangerous and crime-ridden place and makes me scared MOST, except Colombia..... how safe in everydays-life is Malaysia and even Indonesia compared to Thailand, yes some of you may not believe it, but if u lived there, u would know better.....

and such things like that Ratchada-incident happen in Thailand everyday..... did you already forget that killer-gang-thing in Chiang Mai just few months ago ? It was not really a big topic in public ..... but they killed 6 people on the streets within a few months "just for fun".... if such thing would happen in the US, Uk or Germany or wherever, it would be in the "world news broadcast" everywhere.... but not in Thailand - because its just too common here.... thanks god TV makes things more visible here.... bad things and good things.... oh, by the way, I like to be at Ratchada at night sometimes (even I dont get up at 12.30 usually) and have some food at Ratchada night market after clubbing there ..... but those incidents make me scared.... can happen to everybody..... I was considering to buy an old used car and know I am sure I will definitely do..... brings me more safety....

[jomama]

I've lived in Bangkok going on six years.  95% of all bad incidents I have seen since coming here occurred between 11:00 pm and 3:00 am - and I have no idea what hapopens after 3:00 am.  I decided years ago to generally try to be off the streets by midnight - and live longer.  Nowadays, I almost never see any trouble - because I'm home before it starts.

Good post Indo-Siam.

Very true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After my "salad days" (Mekhong days?) in Thailand -- when I used to stay out late as a single guy -- I have never been close to being smacked or a witness to any violence. Course the ol' lady keeps me on a short leash (not really, but I do listen to her).

IndoSiam is right on the button. If you hang out in any city -- I've spent long periods of time in Barcelona, Paris, the south of France -- very late at night, you're going to see the dark underbelly.

Did I ever tell you about the time I danced all night with a naked French girl in the basement of a French bistro? Nah, I try not to admit this one -- suffice it to say I was asked to pay for the privilege. I was so naive I didn't know the score, and when I went to leave at dawn, a couple of very large men presented me with a bill that wiped me out (and I was carrying a rather decent amount of cash). They took what I had and dumped out on the pavement in the glaring light of dawn. I had to walk home and that took all morning.

Ah, those French are a violent lot!

[jomama]

Sorry about the above post. Now we're getting into "war stories."

Oh, what the h*ll. Any more good war stories out there?

[Tolley]

Firstly - I have sympathy for someone sitting on a motorcycle at a red light, who gets violently mugged - and I hope they catch the thugs - and "terminate the threat with extreme prejudice".

Then we get to the question of whether Bangkok is turning into "Bordertown" ala Mad Maxx.

The argument that is playing out in this thread seems to be between two populations:

Population #1 -  Wakes up at 6:30 am, heads out for the day around 11:00 am, frequents the main drags of Bangkok during the day, starts drinking beer around 6:00 pm, enjoys himself until about 11:00 pm, then heads home - maybe with a bit of a buzz on.  This population sees and lives in a Bangkok that is civilized and safe.  Any police that this population encounters are generally involved in keeping order, and keeping traffic flowing.

Population #2  - Wakes up at noon-thirty, heads out the door as the sun goes down, starts drinking at 6:00 pm, amid what he considers the boring, workaday crowd, starts getting really warmed up around midnight - whines incessantly about most bars shutting down at 1:00 am, eats his "lunch" on the streets, amid the post-1:00 am spectacle, seeks out the after hours places, and generally starts wandering toward home, pissed out of his mind, around 4:30 am.  The Bangkok that this population lives in is full of drunks, pickpockets, criminals, hooligans, Thai street gangs, the hardest corebargirls, and policemen whose main business comes from "guarding the nightlife establishments."  In the Bangkok this population lives in, 80% of everyone on the street is drunk or spaced out on yaaba - including all taxi, car, and motorcycle riders - and fights are common - fueled by alcohol, frustration, testosterone, etc.  Crime is relatively common, and blood flows fairly often.

Here is the point:  If you live in the world of Population #1, you are going to go years - maybe decades - without encountering much trouble here.  You can retire and live out your life here in safety.

If you live for years as part of population #2, it is statistically almost certain that you are going to eventually be in the wrong place at the wrong time - and pay a heavy price.  You are going to have a much bleaker view of Bangkok, and wonder what is wrong with someone who reports "suuny days and blue skies" from the other (daytime) world.

I've lived in Bangkok going on six years.  95% of all bad incidents I have seen since coming here occurred between 11:00 pm and 3:00 am - and I have no idea what hapopens after 3:00 am.  I decided years ago to generally try to be off the streets by midnight - and live longer.  Nowadays, I almost never see any trouble - because I'm home before it starts.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ridiculous over simplification using stereotypes which as we all know don't exist.

Some people like to go out on weekends and on holidays and have a bit fun to break up the tedium of the everyday work week. They also like to stay out later than midnight. They don't fit into either of your models 1 or 2.

Then we have tourists who happen to be on holidays and would like to have some fun and enjoy themselves as well.

Tourism is a huge money spinner for LOS.

Do you think tourists should all be in bed by 11?

At 4.40 am when this incident happened someone could well have been on their way to work. They may well have had nothing to do with any night life action or drinking.

Simplistic scenarios like the one presented above appeal to many who like to view issues in black and white terms and who are not prepared to think life might just be a little more complicated than presented as above.

[Indo-Siam]

Hello Tolley -

Gee, I';m sorry - I guess I stepped on your puppy. You seem to have projected yourself into a non-existent scenario where you must defend your chosen lifestyle.

I made no value judgements. And - I certainly did not intend for anyone to take the detailed specific "stereotypes" seriously.

What I was pointing out was that people who live different "shifts" (diurnal/nocturnal) in Bangkok effectively live in completely different cities. The daytime city is pretty safe. The nighttime city is less so.

If you want to try to tell me that the frequency of drunkeness between 10:00 am and 2:00 pm is similar to that between 10:00 pm and 2:00 am - go ahead - but I'm not buying that. The same goes for frequency of fights, stabbings, pickpocketings, shootings, rapes - and I could go on.

A tourist (on North American or European body time) going out late at night for a ten day vacation in Thailand is probably going to have a good time, and not encounter any major problems. Someone going to University here who hangs out in the wee hours of the night/morning regularly for four years probably has a greater thn 50% chance of encountering trouble. The same goes for ex-pats who live here long-term, and stick to a late night cycle.

Are these people doing anything "wrong? I don't think so. Are they acting unwisely? You betcha - in my book. You can't change that Tolley - no matter how bad you want to defend it, "life is cheaper" in Bangkok between midnight and dawn. I didn't make it that way - it just is that way.

And - I think that "natural selection" (predation) will tend to gradually attrit away anyone who spends enough time consistently hanging out in the early morning hours on the streets of Bangkok.

Still, I am talking about cumulative risk of many, many nights of exposure. Going out a few times a month, or even a couple nights a week, is probably not going to seriously increase your risk of serious problems.

Personal opinion only: I think the Police of Bangkok follow a philosophy that is pretty much in line with the scenario I described - and - in fact - they do not really care as much about nightime predators preying on "the night people" as they do about protecting the feeling of well-being of the "daytime people". I'm not saying this is justified - I just think it is reality. They "let the animals sort themselves out" - and then clean up the debris in the morning. 'Something to consider- at least.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[penelope]

Firstly - I have sympathy for someone sitting on a motorcycle at a red light, who gets violently mugged - and I hope they catch the thugs - and "terminate the threat with extreme prejudice".

Then we get to the question of whether Bangkok is turning into "Bordertown" ala Mad Maxx.

The argument that is playing out in this thread seems to be between two populations:

Population #1 -  Wakes up at 6:30 am, heads out for the day around 11:00 am, frequents the main drags of Bangkok during the day, starts drinking beer around 6:00 pm, enjoys himself until about 11:00 pm, then heads home - maybe with a bit of a buzz on.  This population sees and lives in a Bangkok that is civilized and safe.  Any police that this population encounters are generally involved in keeping order, and keeping traffic flowing.

Population #2  - Wakes up at noon-thirty, heads out the door as the sun goes down, starts drinking at 6:00 pm, amid what he considers the boring, workaday crowd, starts getting really warmed up around midnight - whines incessantly about most bars shutting down at 1:00 am, eats his "lunch" on the streets, amid the post-1:00 am spectacle, seeks out the after hours places, and generally starts wandering toward home, pissed out of his mind, around 4:30 am.  The Bangkok that this population lives in is full of drunks, pickpockets, criminals, hooligans, Thai street gangs, the hardest corebargirls, and policemen whose main business comes from "guarding the nightlife establishments."  In the Bangkok this population lives in, 80% of everyone on the street is drunk or spaced out on yaaba - including all taxi, car, and motorcycle riders - and fights are common - fueled by alcohol, frustration, testosterone, etc.  Crime is relatively common, and blood flows fairly often.

Here is the point:  If you live in the world of Population #1, you are going to go years - maybe decades - without encountering much trouble here.  You can retire and live out your life here in safety.

If you live for years as part of population #2, it is statistically almost certain that you are going to eventually be in the wrong place at the wrong time - and pay a heavy price.  You are going to have a much bleaker view of Bangkok, and wonder what is wrong with someone who reports "suuny days and blue skies" from the other (daytime) world.

I've lived in Bangkok going on six years.  95% of all bad incidents I have seen since coming here occurred between 11:00 pm and 3:00 am - and I have no idea what hapopens after 3:00 am.  I decided years ago to generally try to be off the streets by midnight - and live longer.  Nowadays, I almost never see any trouble - because I'm home before it starts.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about population 3...those that play golf at midnight under floodlights

[Jai Dee]

Tolley and Penelope, there's probably population #4 though to #99 types as well... but I think Steve has made his point and I concur...

What I was pointing out was that people who live different "shifts" (diurnal/nocturnal) in Bangkok effectively live in completely different cities.  The daytime city is pretty safe.  The nighttime city is less so.

This is true for any large metropolis in any country in the world.

[Butterfly]

Scary. First I didn't want to believe this was true but as someone said, it takes a lot of evidence for people to wake up to the possibilities of violence here in Bangkok. What a terrible tragedy.

I am in population #1 and population #2 like everyone else and you can't make a clear cut between those 2 population when you are a farang living in LOS. Might as well stay in your home country if you don't want to live "differently".

That said, it has become clear that the EARLY closing hours has not solved those type of violence as originally thought. Not sure if it was worse before or after. With longer closing hours, what chance would they have taken to beat someone randomly in such an open place ? with so many people still out in the streets ?

This is a ######ing tragedy. And as usual the Thai police is acting "sabai sabai". I am sure they have seen worse among Thais and they are probably jaded.

I don't think I will be buying a bike anytime soon

[Tolley]

Hello Tolley -

Gee, I';m sorry - I guess I stepped on your puppy.  You seem to have projected yourself into a non-existent scenario where you must defend your chosen lifestyle.

How pray tell do you come to that conclusion?

Remember I don't buy into your two case scenario.

I made no value judgements.  And - I certainly did not intend for anyone to take the detailed specific "stereotypes" seriously.

But you did because you stated that this was how things were.

What I was pointing out was that people who live different "shifts" (diurnal/nocturnal) in Bangkok effectively live in completely different cities.  The daytime city is pretty safe.  The nighttime city is less so.

BUt you missed the point. The majority of people don't even fit into your two case scenario which you said you didn't take seriously anyway....I am getting confused here.

If you want to try to tell me that the frequency of drunkeness between 10:00 am and 2:00 pm is similar to that between 10:00 pm and 2:00 am - go ahead - but I'm not buying that.  The same goes for frequency of fights, stabbings, pickpocketings, shootings, rapes - and I could go on.

Where did i ever say the contrary?

A tourist (on North American or European body time) going out late at night for a  ten day vacation in Thailand is probably going to have a good time, and not encounter any major problems.  Someone going to University here who hangs out in the wee hours of the night/morning regularly for four years probably has a greater thn 50% chance of encountering trouble.  The same goes for ex-pats who live here long-term, and stick to a late night cycle.

Maybe maybe not it seems that things are getting worse and random acts of violence are on the increase and your average Joe may well get caught up in some random act of violence.

Are these people doing anything "wrong?  I don't think so.  Are they acting unwisely?  You betcha - in my book.  You can't change that Tolley - no matter how bad you want to defend it, "life is cheaper" in Bangkok between midnight and dawn.  I didn't make it that way - it just is that way.

And - I think that "natural selection" (predation) will tend to gradually attrit away anyone who spends enough time consistently hanging out in the early morning hours on the streets of Bangkok.

You seem to be trying to reinforce the view that it is low lifes that hang out and get drunk who are likely to get attacked or robbed or whatever. The point i am making is it could be anyone anytime as most people are going to be out and about at night at some time or other as are tourists who constitute a large section of the floating population. 

Still, I am talking about cumulative risk of many, many nights of exposure.  Going out a few times a month, or even a couple nights a week, is probably not going to seriously increase your risk of serious problems.

Personal opinion only:  I think the Police of Bangkok follow a philosophy that is pretty much in line with the scenario I described - and - in fact - they do not really care as much about nightime predators preying on "the night people" as they do about protecting the feeling of well-being of the "daytime people".  I'm not saying this is justified - I just think it is reality.  They "let the animals sort themselves out" - and then clean up the debris in the morning.  'Something to consider- at least.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now we would all be safer if we never went anywhere or did anything. The fact is that most people are out and about after dark at some time or another and as such are increasingly more likely to be a victim of violence.