Compensation For Farang In Thailand

[peterinth]

Sorry if I've made a mistake in reviving an old post, but they stopped at least 9 months ago, at least the ones I saw.

My case is below and I wanted to know if any contracted foreigners had succeeded with a claim please?

I have worked for an international school for 11 years on renewed two year contracts. My children have only ever been to this school.

Now I am told my contract will not be renewed and free education for my children will cease at my contract's end.

New information management software is being introduced and my job as manager is to be taken over by someone else, who will be trained specially in the new software to do the same job.

Even if this is redundancy, which I don't think it is, I believe the school should recognize my length of loyalty and continual service and provision be made for my children, at least for the next few years until they complete their external exams.

I really don't want to work for the school any more if they wish to not continue employing me. I have 6 months notice, but will have to find my own family's fare to return to the UK as the school have refused to help with that, that is not part of my contract as a local hire.

I feel that I should have a case for a full 12 months pay for the length of service I have given the school, which has had no cause to complain about my conduct or quality of work, but to be honest I feel that the school should pay for the distress they are causing and have caused me and my family and for the fact that after 11 years here I am not likely to get another job in the same field very easily.

[CharlieH]

Sorry about your situation and i do sympathise but This is Thailand ! and whilst you may feel there is a case to answer you will probably get absolutely no where, even if you were to seek legal action of some description it would take years to process or reach any kind of conclusion and wouldnt be cheap. In my experience of living in Thailand for many years it seems to be the norm for many companies to do this when an employee has been working for 10 years plus, they do seem to make them "redundant" so to avoid payments later, its always easier and cheaper to bring in someone new especially if you are being replaced by a Thai person.The school could always argue that the job is no longer justifyable for a "foriegner" and must therefore be given to a Thai (if thats the case).

I wish you luck, and if I was you I would put it all down to experience allbeit unpleasant and perhaps unfair but move on.

[aridion]

You should do a check of thai labour law. I DO know that you are entitled to at least 300 days pay if you have more than 10 years service with a company (in this case your school).

Check this previous post www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/241043-thai-labor-law-in-english/

Hope this helps.

[kuffki]

I could be wrong but if you were employed on a contract and not full time basis, Thai labor laws do not apply at all.

School only need to fulfill what is stated in the contract nothing more, nothing less.

Of course some owners may like to thank its employees for long service, but this is Thailand and you did not resign but they are not going to renew the contract so the owner does not see any benefit in thanking you or trying to leave it on good terms.

To be honest i do not think you stand a chance to win any compensation at all, the most you might get is a THANK YOU which may come at a high cost.

[CharlieH]

You should do a check of thai labour law. I DO know that you are entitled to at least 300 days pay if you have more than 10 years service with a company (in this case your school).

Check this previous post www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/241043-thai-labor-law-in-english/

Hope this helps.

This is not quite accurate in these circumstances...............Labour protection Act 1998, Chapter 11, Section II8 "Severance" para 5 states

" An employees who has worked for more than 10 consecutive years shall be paid not less than 300 days at the most recent rate of basic pay" which appears to prove the above BUT is also goes on to state that the provision SHALL NOT APPLY to an employee who's period of employment is of a fixed duration and whos employment is terminated at the expiration of that term.

Now as I understand it, you were on a 2 year renewable contract, you have been given notice that it will not be renewed and therefore the 300 days doesnt apply in this instance, also it could be argued that although you have been there 10 years, contractually you were there for five periods of two years.

If you really want to try and fight for something go see a Thanai (Solicitor) who deals in labour laws etc and get some accurate information and at least know exactly what, if anything, can be done.

Best of Luck.

Edited November 3, 2010 by CharlieH

[bucatini70]

you are entitled to compensation through Thai labor laws (Thai law supersedes any contract)under the conditions you outlined you are entitled to

3 or 6 months salary compensation(sorry i cannot remember which). If the contract has expired and the company informed you they would not renew through written documentation on/or before the time requirement of the renewal period, you have no claim for any other compensation, other than Thai severance compensation. If they did not comply with time requirement, written documentation or the contract is written in such a way that you had an expectation that your contract would or should have been renewed then you will do have recourse and as well if you were terminated before the end of the expiration of the contract you may also request through Thai court this amount. Take your wife, W/P, Passport, copies of contract (if in English must be translated and notarized), and any other relevant documents to the closest Thai labor department and file a claim. It will take between 3 - 6 months to resolve and get paid. As a thought i would claim your children tuition salary compensation when making any claim.

You also know that your visa is attatched to your W/P and will be canceled when your W/P is canceled you have 7 days to resovle the visa issue

Good luck

[kuffki]

you are entitled to compensation through Thai labor laws (Thai law supersedes any contract)under the conditions you outlined you are entitled to

3 or 6 months salary compensation(sorry i cannot remember which). If the contract has expired and the company informed you they would not renew through written documentation on/or before the time requirement of the renewal period, you have no claim for any other compensation, other than Thai severance compensation. If they did not comply with time requirement, written documentation or the contract is written in such a way that you had an expectation that your contract would or should have been renewed then you will do have recourse and as well if you were terminated before the end of the expiration of the contract you may also request through Thai court this amount. Take your wife, W/P, Passport, copies of contract (if in English must be translated and notarized), and any other relevant documents to the closest Thai labor department and file a claim. It will take between 3 - 6 months to resolve and get paid. As a thought i would claim your children tuition salary compensation when making any claim.

You also know that your visa is attatched to your W/P and will be canceled when your W/P is canceled you have 7 days to resovle the visa issue

Good luck

Thai Law DOES NOT supersedes a contract!!!! Where are you getting your information from?

Contract is a contract which is a legally binding agreement. You are entitled only to what is stated in the contract and its conditions, this is why there is a contract and time frame which is specified in the contract.

Thai labor laws only apply to employees who are employed as employees under standard conditions, it does not apply to employment under contract.

From what OP explained, he had/has fair contract which has been renewed 5 times and will no longer be renewed and enough notice has been given.

Kids education was a bonus in the contract, it is not employers responsibility but employees. Airfares is not part of the contract, so OP is not entitled to it, nor is he entitled to any long service payment BECAUSE he was employed under a specific contract with specific terms.

Hypothetical- if OP was given company car for the duration of the contract as part of the contract, once the contract has expired, OP can not claim or demand to have the car because now he has no means to go shopping.

[DumpyLevel]

Did you get a new work permit with each 2 year contact or has your work permit been valid in the one position for 11 years

[peterinth]

Good point about the W/P Dumpylevel. I see where you're going and I will check.

I have found a Thai lawyer that will take the case on a 10% basis, no win no cost. And I will follow through with that. Of course I will keep this forum updated for the benefit of other souls.

In answer to some of the comments: Yes TIT and I've been here long enough not to let it blacken my heart. It's been good and a new chapter will begin, life will go on. It's the attitude that I'm not comfortable with after being led to believe that if a good job was done there would be no reason to fear a non renewal of contract. I feel aggrieved and will take whatever action I, reasonably, can.

Oh well. Whatever will be...

Did you get a new work permit with each 2 year contact or has your work permit been valid in the one position for 11 years

[FritsSikkink]

Good point about the W/P Dumpylevel. I see where you're going and I will check.

I have found a Thai lawyer that will take the case on a 10% basis, no win no cost. And I will follow through with that. Of course I will keep this forum updated for the benefit of other souls.

In answer to some of the comments: Yes TIT and I've been here long enough not to let it blacken my heart. It's been good and a new chapter will begin, life will go on. It's the attitude that I'm not comfortable with after being led to believe that if a good job was done there would be no reason to fear a non renewal of contract. I feel aggrieved and will take whatever action I, reasonably, can.

Oh well. Whatever will be...

Did you get a new work permit with each 2 year contact or has your work permit been valid in the one position for 11 years

I understand your not too happy atm but your facing a long proces of agony if you got to court.

Just take your loss. Go for a new challenge and remember the good things.

[kuffki]

Good point about the W/P Dumpylevel. I see where you're going and I will check.

I have found a Thai lawyer that will take the case on a 10% basis, no win no cost. And I will follow through with that. Of course I will keep this forum updated for the benefit of other souls.

In answer to some of the comments: Yes TIT and I've been here long enough not to let it blacken my heart. It's been good and a new chapter will begin, life will go on. It's the attitude that I'm not comfortable with after being led to believe that if a good job was done there would be no reason to fear a non renewal of contract. I feel aggrieved and will take whatever action I, reasonably, can.

Oh well. Whatever will be...

Did you get a new work permit with each 2 year contact or has your work permit been valid in the one position for 11 years

Before you sign any contract with that lawyer, please make sure to ask him all the questions and costs involved.

I am only telling you this, because i have once taken a lawyer for a matter where we agreed to a 25% if i win and no other costs, only to find out to my surprise that court fees is not covered by that and if i wanted to file a law suit because other party did not respond i had to pay 75 000K upfront.

You will also find that the 10% does not include letters, phone calls, secretarial, photocopy, translation and translator services.

Also clarify the costs if the school was to settle prior to going to court and the costs if you do not win the case, because by Thai law you will be responsible for school legal fees

So make sure you cover all your basis before going ahead with it, because it while your frustration and disappointment is understandable, the school has not really broken any laws or rules. Yes you have dedicated 11 years to the school, but you were also paid for your service.

So be wise and seek advice from 5+ lawyers before going with anyone.(and this is speaking from experience)

Edited November 3, 2010 by kuffki

[jts-khorat]

@kuffki:

Thai Labor law does supersede employment contracts. This is actually written in the law.

Show me any place in the world where you can make a contract that supersedes national law!

@peterinth:

Actually, the Thai labor law is very protective for employees -- try to get rid of an unwanted one who knows his rights (but this is a different story!).

If you have been in employment in the same position, uninterrupted, for 11 years, the provisions for severance pay apply for the full length of your working time. Many employers try to trick the unknowing employees by having dates on their contracts, but they are still protected under the Thai labor Law regulations.

This would be a different story if you would have been employed in different positions with each contract (that's why it is important you are working on the same work permit -- or at least your work description in the work permit(s) did not change).

Caveat: I heard that teachers at schools might fall under different regulations than the Thai Labor Law altogether, but do not remember if this was relevant for state or private schools. That would be a good question for your lawyer.

There are a good number of threads on this forum, where people won against their employers. Good advice I have read on those: have a chat at your local labor office, they will assist you (for free) and they are in general very pro-employee. This just might lead to a quick conclusion without a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery lengthy court case.

[kuffki]

@kuffki:

Thai Labor law does supersede employment contracts. This is actually written in the law.

Show me any place in the world where you can make a contract that supersedes national law!

@peterinth:

Actually, the Thai labor law is very protective for employees -- try to get rid of an unwanted one who knows his rights (but this is a different story!).

If you have been in employment in the same position, uninterrupted, for 11 years, the provisions for severance pay apply for the full length of your working time. Many employers try to trick the unknowing employees by having dates on their contracts, but they are still protected under the Thai labor Law regulations.

This would be a different story if you would have been employed in different positions with each contract (that's why it is important you are working on the same work permit -- or at least your work description in the work permit(s) did not change).

Caveat: I heard that teachers at schools might fall under different regulations than the Thai Labor Law altogether, but do not remember if this was relevant for state or private schools. That would be a good question for your lawyer.

There are a good number of threads on this forum, where people won against their employers. Good advice I have read on those: have a chat at your local labor office, they will assist you (for free) and they are in general very pro-employee. This just might lead to a quick conclusion without a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery lengthy court case.

Sure in Australia. you may want to do some research prior to posting "facts"

For 8 years in Sydney i employed 150 people on a contract which clearly stated their salary, position, terms for termination and notices.

Labor law only applies to employees(let me try to explain this little better) people employed as full timers or part timers. Most of the time those do not sign any contracts and those fall under the LAW and/or also people in the open contract which does not clearly state terms, conditions and period but only states the job title, responsibility and wages.

People employed with contract are in fact contractors and can also be called self employed contractors. Contract states all the terms. If person is not happy with terms of the contract he/she does not have to sign it and accept the job, but once they have they acknowledge the terms of the contract and agree to everything contract offers Thai or any other law has no authority and can not supersede the terms of contract unless contract terms were broken by either party.

Even if in the contract it states that your wages will be half of minimum wage and you have signed the contract, by law there is nothing that can be done. In very rare cases with an amazing lawyer and special circumstance it can be proven in court that the employer took advantage of employee( employee was unable to read, or was forced or tricked into signing the contract)

However this is not the case with OP, as he has been working for 11 years, so he was well aware and happy with the terms of his contract.

[peterinth]

Did you get a new work permit with each 2 year contact or has your work permit been valid in the one position for 11 years

Dumpylevel

I did check my work permit. Same job for 11 years and stamped every year as it should be until a couple of years ago when the regulations changed to every 2 years to renew.

No breaks. No change of duties. A clean 11 years continual employment.

I'm off to the labour office in Din Dang with my Thai wife and my papers for a little chat.

[DumpyLevel]

Peter

I do think you have a case. I'm no expert but I was told quite a few years back that the labour department put rules in place to stop people not getting their due entitlement by breaking employment periods up by making the staff work to fixed contracts and then re-engaging them. Either you pay the required compensation at the end of a year or two, and if not and the contact is renewed, without having paid the compensation the employment is deemed continuing. As someone above said, the labour department do not care what your contract says with your employer, if you have been on the one work permit with the same company for eleven years, you have been employed for eleven years.

I only found this out some years back when the foreign company I was working for, on yearly contracts, finally terminated me after seven years as the project was complete paid me a most welcome compensation payment I did not expect. Not that they were overly good hearted, they had been taken to task a number of times before, and maybe they thought clueless me was more a bit more clever than I am.

Good luck. I believe the labour department will be behind you, but in Thailand, you never really know.

Cheers

[Udox]

There are different types of contract. Fixed period (eg. 1 year) and unlimited.

If your (fixed)contract is ended before it is due to - then you are entitled to severance pay (also referred to as unfair dismissal) providing you were not guilty to anything which can be construed as Gross Misconduct.

If your contract is due for renewal but the employer decides not to renew it - so be it. Game over.

The Labour Department will help you if your employer is guilty of breaking any part of the Labour Welfare Act 1998, however its all done very Thai style with LOTS of 'Mai Pen Rai'

If the case is accepted there will be a 60 day arbitration period where both sides state their case and if the matter is still unresolved or disagreed upon whatever verdict might be reached, the case will go before a Labour Court.

I advise you to read up extremely well on the Thai Labour Welfare Act 1998 (English version available online) and if you feel you have been treated wrongly according to section xxx and paragraph xxx, then make your claim.

If you are just p****d off at your employers actions or attitude - you will have to live with it I'm afraid.

Got the book AND the T-Shirt on a similar matter !

[witold]

Sorry about your situation and i do sympathise but This is Thailand !

The OP must be from a very socialist Euro country if he thinks the employer needs to give him and his family plane tickets, many months of freebie compensation, compensation for 'distress', etc, etc. In other parts of the world - including the US - none of these things apply. If you are no longer needed at your workplace, you are dismissed with 2 weeks notice, and you look for another position elsewhere. Certainly, This is not just Thailand!

[whybother]

you are entitled to compensation through Thai labor laws (Thai law supersedes any contract)under the conditions you outlined you are entitled to

3 or 6 months salary compensation(sorry i cannot remember which). If the contract has expired and the company informed you they would not renew through written documentation on/or before the time requirement of the renewal period, you have no claim for any other compensation, other than Thai severance compensation. If they did not comply with time requirement, written documentation or the contract is written in such a way that you had an expectation that your contract would or should have been renewed then you will do have recourse and as well if you were terminated before the end of the expiration of the contract you may also request through Thai court this amount. Take your wife, W/P, Passport, copies of contract (if in English must be translated and notarized), and any other relevant documents to the closest Thai labor department and file a claim. It will take between 3 - 6 months to resolve and get paid. As a thought i would claim your children tuition salary compensation when making any claim.

You also know that your visa is attatched to your W/P and will be canceled when your W/P is canceled you have 7 days to resovle the visa issue

Good luck

Thai Law DOES NOT supersedes a contract!!!! Where are you getting your information from?

Contract is a contract which is a legally binding agreement. You are entitled only to what is stated in the contract and its conditions, this is why there is a contract and time frame which is specified in the contract.

Thai labor laws only apply to employees who are employed as employees under standard conditions, it does not apply to employment under contract.

From what OP explained, he had/has fair contract which has been renewed 5 times and will no longer be renewed and enough notice has been given.

Kids education was a bonus in the contract, it is not employers responsibility but employees. Airfares is not part of the contract, so OP is not entitled to it, nor is he entitled to any long service payment BECAUSE he was employed under a specific contract with specific terms.

Hypothetical- if OP was given company car for the duration of the contract as part of the contract, once the contract has expired, OP can not claim or demand to have the car because now he has no means to go shopping.

My understanding is that some parts of Thai Labour law can NOT be signed away in a contract. Can you imagine how many Thai companies would "encourage" their employees to sign away their rights just so they can get a job?

Also, once you have worked for a company for more than 12 months, you are considered a permanent employee.

I had a Australian friend who took BBL to court to get redundancy payments after his contract wasn't renewed after about 3 years.

[rotary]

Good point about the W/P Dumpylevel. I see where you're going and I will check.

I have found a Thai lawyer that will take the case on a 10% basis, no win no cost. And I will follow through with that. Of course I will keep this forum updated for the benefit of other souls.

In answer to some of the comments: Yes TIT and I've been here long enough not to let it blacken my heart. It's been good and a new chapter will begin, life will go on. It's the attitude that I'm not comfortable with after being led to believe that if a good job was done there would be no reason to fear a non renewal of contract. I feel aggrieved and will take whatever action I, reasonably, can.

Oh well. Whatever will be...

Did you get a new work permit with each 2 year contact or has your work permit been valid in the one position for 11 years

I have seen several cases of these 10% lawyers taking labor cases. I thought they would have went broke by now.....all the cases I saw they had limited if any success with farangs fight in Thai labor court. Just my observations from cases I have seen on a 1st hand basis

[jts-khorat]

Did you get a new work permit with each 2 year contact or has your work permit been valid in the one position for 11 years

Dumpylevel

I did check my work permit. Same job for 11 years and stamped every year as it should be until a couple of years ago when the regulations changed to every 2 years to renew.

No breaks. No change of duties. A clean 11 years continual employment.

I'm off to the labour office in Din Dang with my Thai wife and my papers for a little chat.

Any updates on the situation?

[peterinth]

I went to the labour office yesterday and was directed to a new office set up for farangs somewhere in Victory Monument area. My wife telephoned the contact who asked the name of the school and after a short break to check the name of the school on his pc, replied that the school was private and there was nothing I could do as far as they were concerned.

Case over it looks like!!!

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

You are not entitled to severance pay under Thai labor law. The Labor Protection Act's provisions on severance pay do not apply where an employer refuses to renew your contract. An employer may simply say it's not renewing the contract (does not require any advanced notice) and there is no entitlement for severance pay. You are a contract employee, not a permanent employee entitled to severance pay.

Labor Protection Act (1998)

Section 17: An employment contract shall expire when the specified period in the employment contract expires without any requirement for advance notice.

Chapter 11 Severance Pay

Section 118 An employer shall pay severance pay to an employee whose employment is terminated, as follows: . . .

The provisions of Paragraph 1 shall not apply to an employee whose period of employment is of a fixed duration and whose employment is terminated at the expiration of that duration.

[jts-khorat]

You are not entitled to severance pay under Thai labor law. The Labor Protection Act's provisions on severance pay do not apply where an employer refuses to renew your contract. An employer may simply say it's not renewing the contract (does not require any advanced notice) and there is no entitlement for severance pay. You are a contract employee, not a permanent employee entitled to severance pay.

Labor Protection Act (1998)

Section 17: An employment contract shall expire when the specified period in the employment contract expires without any requirement for advance notice.

Chapter 11 Severance Pay

Section 118 An employer shall pay severance pay to an employee whose employment is terminated, as follows: . . .

The provisions of Paragraph 1 shall not apply to an employee whose period of employment is of a fixed duration and whose employment is terminated at the expiration of that duration.

And round and round we go... how come that people only ever read half of a legal text?

You are quoting the part describing fixed duration contracts for work relating to specific projects (eg seasonal farm work, a construction project where the employee is let go with project end, etc). After employment over a certain time period (even if the intermittent contracts had end dates), the employment is seen as permanent.

I doubt that many foreigners work as seasonal farm hands (a forbidden profession to boot). So this paragraph DOES NOT APPLY to any of them, and never has.

Back to the OP:

unluckily it seems that you are indeed working for a school not falling under the Labor Law, but under the regulations of the education ministry. I have no experience with that at all, but still I wish you the best of luck.

Edited November 13, 2010 by jts-khorat