Thailand To Extradite Russian Arms Dealer Viktor Bout To US: PM Abhisit

[Padrino]

Reading the comments above I think there are a number of points missing regarding the US's role in all this. This is a piece I wrote for a magazine some time back.

VictorBout - Lord of War or US Scapegoat?

Branded ‘a merchant of death’, ‘a sanctions buster’, and‘the world’s most efficient postman’, Victor Bout is one of the world’s mostspeculated about individuals. The speculation extends from his links to the KGB,to the legitimacy of his air cargo businesses.

His influence in African civil wars has been welldocumented, no more so than in Douglas Farah’s book Merchant of Death,and the film Lord of War which is thought to be loosely based on Bout’sexploits. Bout’s close associates have dubbed both works as absolute fiction. Regardlessof the accusations, Victor Bout has never been convicted of arms dealing orinvolvement with terrorist networks.

Bout is currently being held in a Thai jail after a US stingoperation at a Bangkokhotel in 2008. The sting was set up by the US Drug Enforcement Agency. Theyclaim Bout offered to supply them with weapons for the terrorist organisationFARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia). Bout was set up by friend AndrewSmulian. Smulian introduced the DEA as a potential client, but was in factworking as an informant.

The USwas smugly confident of Bout’s extradition. However, the Thai judicial systemdidn’t succumb to any bullying. While Americamight view FARC as a terrorist organisation, Thailand does not. Victor Boutremains in prison pending the outcome of a US appeal and remains adamant he ismerely a businessman and a family man - betrayed by a friend who swappedloyalty for cash.

The whole situation reeks of US double standards. The UShired Bout to fly in weapons for their own war of dishonesty in the Middle East, but now want to extradite him for trial oncharges established through entrapment. Perhaps the USis trying to recover some face after their warmongering spree, seeking toappease those around the world who accuse Bout of aiding civil war in Africa.

Victor Bout was very useful when only his pilots would flyinto Middle Eastern danger zones. However, this postman’s contract has come toan end. The US do not want Bout to help anyoneelse in their quest for war, they want a scapegoat that will allow them tofurther adjust the history books.

The fact is, even if Victor Bout is a weapon merchant,weapons do not kill people, people kill people. Let us not forget, thetechnology for an assortment of globally distributed weaponry is created andsold by the US and UK. So, surely,if Victor Bout is guilty, then so is every person who ever commissioned themaking of a weapon or handled a weapon during its manufacturing process.

[mark45y]

A jailbreak wouldn't be difficult. Either that or have him killed before he talks. It's not rocket science is it.

I think it's hilarious that no-one on this site realises what Russia might do in retaliation.

What exactly do you think Russia can do in retaliation?

One of if not the biggest Russian spy ring was busted in the US only a few months ago by that dumb Barack Obama and that dumb FBI, CIA and Justice Department. It resulted in the biggest spy swap in history. So the Russian spy thing is not doing too well right now. In the world of spies the US made the Russians look like fools.

[Phuket Stan]

I wondered if there would be much factual discussion of the Bout case. Not really far more about Yank bashing and re hashing all the wars since WWII. And of course the American justice system.

Why stop with WWII were there no wrongs before WWII? Why not go into the shining example of the British Empire and colonialism in general?

American policy messed up Africa? Who partitioned Africa by geographical boundaries instead of tribal loyalties? Why start discussions about Vietnam without a discussion of the 60,000 Frenchmen killed there and lord knows how many Vietnamese before the Americans got there. The Chinese starved a million in Hanoi after WWII. Why not start a discussion about Iraq and Iran with some information about what other foreign countries ruled the place before WWII?

Heck the Brits wanted to starve Thailand after WW II and the only reason they were not allowed to was the Americans. That fact alone justifies a certain amount of Thai friendship in my mind.

I don't know Bout. I am glad he got extradited because of all the people on Thai Visa who said the Americans did not have the clout to get him extradited. They did and he is gone. Live with it.

You forget to mention if the Japanese had not bombed Pearl Harbour travel would have been so much easier...ie all of Asia would be speaking Japanese and Europe & UK would all be addressing each other as Herr or Fraulien....so much easier for tourist....those pesky Americans should have left well alone....opps I forgot the interfering USA suppling the UK with all those arms during WW11

You are of course right. The world would be a much better place if the Yanks minded their own business. There were commies in Phetchabun all through the 60's and of course Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam were communist countries. Burma even worse. But I am sure the Thais would have made it just fine alone without all those American and Aussie troops stationed in Thailand. China would not have bothered them. Heck why would China have wanted Thailand? Shipping all those trucks and weapons to North Vietnam was enough of a strain on them.

And at the same time the UK and its allies were busy flushing out the Commies in Malaysia....history is a funny thing....I wonder without the US and allies being involved in Vietnam would there be only one flag across this part of Asia...you know the flag...the one with a single star on it...

[mark45y]

Reading the comments above I think there are a number of points missing regarding the US's role in all this. This is a piece I wrote for a magazine some time back.

VictorBout - Lord of War or US Scapegoat?

Branded ‘a merchant of death’, ‘a sanctions buster’, and‘the world’s most efficient postman’, Victor Bout is one of the world’s mostspeculated about individuals. The speculation extends from his links to the KGB,to the legitimacy of his air cargo businesses.

His influence in African civil wars has been welldocumented, no more so than in Douglas Farah’s book Merchant of Death,and the film Lord of War which is thought to be loosely based on Bout’sexploits. Bout’s close associates have dubbed both works as absolute fiction. Regardlessof the accusations, Victor Bout has never been convicted of arms dealing orinvolvement with terrorist networks.

Bout is currently being held in a Thai jail after a US stingoperation at a Bangkokhotel in 2008. The sting was set up by the US Drug Enforcement Agency. Theyclaim Bout offered to supply them with weapons for the terrorist organisationFARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia). Bout was set up by friend AndrewSmulian. Smulian introduced the DEA as a potential client, but was in factworking as an informant.

The USwas smugly confident of Bout’s extradition. However, the Thai judicial systemdidn’t succumb to any bullying. While Americamight view FARC as a terrorist organisation, Thailand does not. Victor Boutremains in prison pending the outcome of a US appeal and remains adamant he ismerely a businessman and a family man - betrayed by a friend who swappedloyalty for cash.

The whole situation reeks of US double standards. The UShired Bout to fly in weapons for their own war of dishonesty in the Middle East, but now want to extradite him for trial oncharges established through entrapment. Perhaps the USis trying to recover some face after their warmongering spree, seeking toappease those around the world who accuse Bout of aiding civil war in Africa.

Victor Bout was very useful when only his pilots would flyinto Middle Eastern danger zones. However, this postman’s contract has come toan end. The US do not want Bout to help anyoneelse in their quest for war, they want a scapegoat that will allow them tofurther adjust the history books.

The fact is, even if Victor Bout is a weapon merchant,weapons do not kill people, people kill people. Let us not forget, thetechnology for an assortment of globally distributed weaponry is created andsold by the US and UK. So, surely,if Victor Bout is guilty, then so is every person who ever commissioned themaking of a weapon or handled a weapon during its manufacturing process.

By your reasoning it would be OK for a person to sell an atomic bomb to a terrorist group. Yes or no?

By your reasoning the people who invented the atomic bomb were just as guilty as the President who ordered it dropped? Yes or no?

Henry Ford sold the Germans the trucks they drove to invade Poland and start WW II. Is Henry Ford responsible for the start of WW II? Yes or no?

[george]

Summary/update:

Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout extradited to U.S.

2010-11-16 20:22:23 GMT+7 (ICT)

BANGKOK, THAILAND (BNO NEWS) -- Russian alleged arms dealer Viktor Bout on Tuesday was extradited from Thailand, and boarded a U.S. government jet in order to be tried in the country, officials said.

At 1:27 p.m. local time, Bout, 44, boarded the 20-seat plane at Don Mueang airport where around 50 members of the police force, including snipers, made sure the extradition was carried out without any surprises.

Besides Bout, onboard were two pilots and six U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) officials.

Dubbed as the "Merchant of Death," Bout had been immersed in a long episode of controversy in which both the U.S. and Russia fought for his extradition since his arrest in March 2008 during a joint U.S.-Thai operation in a Bangkok hotel.

The operation led to conspiracy charges of selling weapons to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC). The U.S. then requested his extradition as he is accused of trafficking arms to warlords around the world since the 1990s.

However, the extradition, which was ruled in an appeals court on August 20, was delayed in October because of legal issues regarding a second set of charges that included money laundering and fraud.

Bout, who is also a former Soviet air force officer, has denied the charges, saying he was on a business trip selling planes.

Bout had been requested to be extradited by Russia as media speculations say he could reveal military secrets and intelligence operations, and on Tuesday, the Russian embassy in Bangkok said it did not receive notice of his extradition to the U.S., prompting Lak Nitivat, Bout's Thai lawyer to call it "illegal."

"The things that are happening today are absolutely outrageous," Nitivat said, adding that Bout's wife had not been notified either.

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Tuesday said it will continue to defend Bout.

"From a legal perspective, what has occurred cannot have a rational explanation and justification," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"Undoubtedly, the illegal extradition of Bout is a result of the unprecedented political pressure on the Thai government and the judicial authorities by the United States. It is deeply regrettable that the Thai authorities succumbed to political pressure from outside and undertook the illegal extradition," the ministry added.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2010-11-16

[gemini81]

A jailbreak wouldn't be difficult. Either that or have him killed before he talks. It's not rocket science is it.

I think it's hilarious that no-one on this site realises what Russia might do in retaliation.

What exactly do you think Russia can do in retaliation?

One of if not the biggest Russian spy ring was busted in the US only a few months ago by that dumb Barack Obama and that dumb FBI, CIA and Justice Department. It resulted in the biggest spy swap in history. So the Russian spy thing is not doing too well right now. In the world of spies the US made the Russians look like fools.

You're truly among the few on this site who make sense.

And lets see what happens at the trial, when evidence is put forth.

A lot of people on this forum like the taste of their toes it often appears.

I recall all of the Russian spies recently caught the other month. It appeared Russia was a bit trembly in fear of what size of cat ol' Vic is gonna let outta the bag if extradited and put on trial.

[whybother]

Summary/update:

Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout extradited to U.S.

<snip>

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Tuesday said it will continue to defend Bout.

"From a legal perspective, what has occurred cannot have a rational explanation and justification," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"Undoubtedly, the illegal extradition of Bout is a result of the unprecedented political pressure on the Thai government and the judicial authorities by the United States. It is deeply regrettable that the Thai authorities succumbed to political pressure from outside and undertook the illegal extradition," the ministry added.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2010-11-16

I wonder what was illegal about the extradition.

[mark45y]

Summary/update:

Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout extradited to U.S.

2010-11-16 20:22:23 GMT+7 (ICT)

BANGKOK, THAILAND (BNO NEWS) -- Russian alleged arms dealer Viktor Bout on Tuesday was extradited from Thailand, and boarded a U.S. government jet in order to be tried in the country, officials said.

At 1:27 p.m. local time, Bout, 44, boarded the 20-seat plane at Don Mueang airport where around 50 members of the police force, including snipers, made sure the extradition was carried out without any surprises.

Besides Bout, onboard were two pilots and six U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) officials.

Dubbed as the "Merchant of Death," Bout had been immersed in a long episode of controversy in which both the U.S. and Russia fought for his extradition since his arrest in March 2008 during a joint U.S.-Thai operation in a Bangkok hotel.

The operation led to conspiracy charges of selling weapons to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC). The U.S. then requested his extradition as he is accused of trafficking arms to warlords around the world since the 1990s.

However, the extradition, which was ruled in an appeals court on August 20, was delayed in October because of legal issues regarding a second set of charges that included money laundering and fraud.

Bout, who is also a former Soviet air force officer, has denied the charges, saying he was on a business trip selling planes.

Bout had been requested to be extradited by Russia as media speculations say he could reveal military secrets and intelligence operations, and on Tuesday, the Russian embassy in Bangkok said it did not receive notice of his extradition to the U.S., prompting Lak Nitivat, Bout's Thai lawyer to call it "illegal."

"The things that are happening today are absolutely outrageous," Nitivat said, adding that Bout's wife had not been notified either.

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Tuesday said it will continue to defend Bout.

"From a legal perspective, what has occurred cannot have a rational explanation and justification," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"Undoubtedly, the illegal extradition of Bout is a result of the unprecedented political pressure on the Thai government and the judicial authorities by the United States. It is deeply regrettable that the Thai authorities succumbed to political pressure from outside and undertook the illegal extradition," the ministry added.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2010-11-16

Wonder how the Kim Philby wannabees will respond to this story?

[Buchholz]

This is a piece I wrote for a magazine some time back.[/left][/center]

mostspeculated

welldocumented

Bout’sexploits.

Regardlessof

orinvolvement

stingoperation

Bangkokhotel

Theyclaim

organisationFARC

factworking

USwas

systemdidn’t

Americamight

Boutremains

ismerely

swappedloyalty

UShired

oncharges

USis

toappease

flyinto

toan

anyoneelse

tofurther

thetechnology

andsold

themaking

That's an interesting journalistic style you employed on your magazine article.

[truered]

This is a piece I wrote for a magazine some time back.[/left][/center]

mostspeculated

welldocumented

Bout'sexploits.

Regardlessof

orinvolvement

stingoperation

Bangkokhotel

Theyclaim

organisationFARC

factworking

USwas

systemdidn't

Americamight

Boutremains

ismerely

swappedloyalty

UShired

oncharges

USis

toappease

flyinto

toan

anyoneelse

tofurther

thetechnology

andsold

themaking

That's an interesting journalistic style you employed on your magazine article.

hahaha!!

[maxman71]

Sergei...you are deluded. Sober up before you post and READ what's going on in the S. China Sea. And read further that nations such as Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. sure are glad to be able to tap the US for some support in standing up to China. Go ask the legions of Indonesians who were sure glad the US Navy was around after the 2004 tsunami. Go ask the Bosnians who were being slaughtered until Clinton and US led the UN effort to put an end to that. Go ask the S. Koreans when back in 2003 N. Korea revealed their nuke program and S. Korea suddenly reversed their desire to have US troops leave. And, go ask China about how they have been able to enjoy their phenomenal economic growth in part because of the shipping lanes that are kept open with valuable assistance of the US Navy in critical shipping lanes like the Straits of Malacca. Do some reading Sergei...and I can accept due criticism of various US actions. What I don't accept is a one-sided, holier than thou bashing. Funny thing is, I've lived and worked in Asia for over 8 years now, and NO ONE has stated the the sort of one-sided crap you and others on this boards to my face personally. It's called cowardice when the likes of you spout your one-sided crap in the safety and comfort behind your little keyboards and clam up when a US Monster in the Flesh presents themselves to the likes of you. And, no I am not going home.

Yawn.

Funny is i seldom met such patriotic USAmericans in RL. The opposite, many feel ashamed for their country and think they have to say 'sorry we are usamericans' and i have to tell them don't worry i will not judge them by their nationality because its not in their responsibility what happen and what goes wrong, nor would i blame these individuals for the wars by the USA. (I am not practicing a simpleton logic like you, who blames me for the USSR and communism because my nick name is Sergei.)

And only a few times i came across an USAmerican in RL who argued that the whole world want all the time their help. All others in the round laughed them off.

Let's get some things straight Sergei:

1) I wasn't the poster that equated you with the communist Soviet Union; some other poster did

2) I never stated anything resembling the whole world wants US help all the time

3) I never associated your name with the USSR; another poster did

4) Quit putting words in my mouth

5) I am quite fed up with a lot the US does and have not voted for a Repub or Dem since 1984.

6) I am proud of my country and encourage my fellow countrypersons to get their heads out of the rears and make some REAL changes, like getting back to following our wonderful Constitution and focusing on adopting behaviors that enabled the US to accomplish great things.

7) Not all Americans are obese credit junkies who can't even find most other countries on a map. Some of us saw this mess (credit collapse, severe recession, etc) coming 2-3 years in advance and did our best to warn others.

8) READ more carefully

9) Sober up before you post

10) I am NOT going "home". But you're welcome to try and force me to. Good luck.

Edited November 16, 2010 by maxman71

[SergeiY]

....history is a funny thing....I wonder without the US and allies being involved in Vietnam would there be only one flag across this part of Asia...you know the flag...the one with a single star on it...

Yes, such heroes the American soldiers - bombing the rice farmers back to the stone age. You are right, you can be so proud of your country - but unfortunately all that will not change much how others think about the USA and your simpleton patriotism.

[hanuman1]

Yawn.

Funny is i seldom met such patriotic USAmericans in RL. The opposite, many feel ashamed for their country and think they have to say 'sorry we are usamericans' and i have to tell them don't worry i will not judge them by their nationality because its not in their responsibility what happen and what goes wrong, nor would i blame these individuals for the wars by the USA. (I am not practicing a simpleton logic like you, who blames me for the USSR and communism because my nick name is Sergei.)

And only a few times i came across an USAmerican in RL who argued that the whole world want all the time their help. All others in the round laughed them off.

Let's get some things straight Sergei:

1) I wasn't the poster that equated you with the communist Soviet Union; some other poster did

2) I never stated anything resembling the whole world wants US help all the time

3) I never associated your name with the USSR; another poster did

4) Quit putting words in my mouth

5) I am quite fed up with a lot the US does and have not voted for a Repub or Dem since 1984.

6) I am proud of my country and encourage my fellow countrypersons to get their heads out of the rears and make some REAL changes, like getting back to following our wonderful Constitution and focusing on adopting behaviors that enabled the US to accomplish great things.

7) Not all Americans are obese credit junkies who can't even find most other countries on a map. Some of us saw this mess (credit collapse, severe recession, etc) coming 2-3 years in advance and did our best to warn others.

8) READ more carefully

9) Sober up before you post

10) I am NOT going "home". But you're welcome to try and force me to. Good luck.

Whether it be 'lefties' complaining about the US being the self-appointed policeman of the world, or 'righties' getting fed up with having to 'come to the aid' of all these countries that ask for their help, both camps ignore the only fundamental truth there is to foreign policy. That is, all countries act purely in their own interests on the world stage.

So why do both camps insist on couching their objections in the context of some kind of objective moral obligation?

I think the main thing which upsets most people seems to be that when the US does decide to do something on the world stage (which by definition can only be in its own interest, same as for any other country), it is often presented as having some kind of moral basis. Not only can (and does) this end up seeming hypocritical after a while, leading to situations like first arming Saddam then going after him, using force for regime change in some countries but not in equally 'deserving' others etc etc, it also fosters a hatred of the very values being touted as the linchpins of such behavior.

By dressing up global power plays with a moral tone, countries undermine the strength of their own morality as perceived by others.

Edited November 16, 2010 by hanuman1

[PingManDan]

Political pressure to say the least, hope now this arshole gets what he deserves "DEATH", for selling arms to all the wrong people and places in the world, just for his own benefit.

[PingManDan]

....history is a funny thing....I wonder without the US and allies being involved in Vietnam would there be only one flag across this part of Asia...you know the flag...the one with a single star on it...

Yes, such heroes the American soldiers - bombing the rice farmers back to the stone age. You are right, you can be so proud of your country - but unfortunately all that will not change much how others think about the USA and your simpleton patriotism.

Edited November 16, 2010 by PingManDan

[flying]

Political pressure to say the least, hope now this arshole gets what he deserves "DEATH", for selling arms to all the wrong people and places in the world, just for his own benefit.

If that is the criteria for a death sentence there are many more ahead of him that should also be killed.

Edited November 16, 2010 by flying

[moetownblues]

Summary/update:

Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout extradited to U.S.

<snip>

The Russian Foreign Ministry on Tuesday said it will continue to defend Bout.

"From a legal perspective, what has occurred cannot have a rational explanation and justification," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"Undoubtedly, the illegal extradition of Bout is a result of the unprecedented political pressure on the Thai government and the judicial authorities by the United States. It is deeply regrettable that the Thai authorities succumbed to political pressure from outside and undertook the illegal extradition," the ministry added.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2010-11-16

I wonder what was illegal about the extradition.

Um threats and intimidation by the United States. Give him to us or else bend over a kiss your rear end goodbye. Typical U.S diplomatic strategy.

[whybother]

I wonder what was illegal about the extradition.

Um threats and intimidation by the United States. Give him to us or else bend over a kiss your rear end goodbye. Typical U.S diplomatic strategy.

IF that did happen, wouldn't Russia have done the same?

I'm sure there was diplomatic pressure from both sides, but does that make the extradition illegal?

[LomSak27]

think the main thing which upsets most people seems to be that when the US does decide to do something on the world stage (which by definition can only be in its own interest, same as for any other country), it is often presented as having some kind of moral basis. Not only can (and does) this end up seeming hypocritical after a while, leading to situations like first arming Saddam then going after him, using force for regime change in some countries but not in equally 'deserving' others etc etc, it also fosters a hatred of the very values being touted as the linchpins of such behavior

A couple problems; It is in US interests to go after a arms dealer whos significant crimes involve bloody civil wars in Africa? I guess that is why you didn't list those interests eh

Arming Saddam? The CIA gave him Sat photos in the Iraq Iran war. Thats arming him? It sounds good but how about some facts not conspiracy theory garbage you got out of a tabloid.

I of course did not mention the Iran Contra exchange because that might be too much to handle, and of course it tosses those theories under the bus.

Don't worry about all these facts Hanuman1 - Tthe choir your preaching to hasn't a clue about them.

No I need some coffee and popcorn to watch the show

[SanukMahk]

he will hang from the highest tree in teXas...... and please- no hang em high posts

He won't hang..... He needs to talk alot. A real lot. Lets see, Viktor tis going to do life but how hard or easy will that life be. Roomed with a bunch of Kateoys or allowed to clip grass at some military base while enjoying fine food along with some well connected Mafia, Up to you Viktor. Well, he won't have to do conjical visits as the Fed don't do that!

Now if Viktor don't talk put him in the Gen Pop Yard and see who wants to be a hero for gutting the "Merchant of Death" Viktor, I woul, do alot of talking and BTW get you family out of Russian NOW

Now they just got Charile Rangle and I would if Nancy Pelosi will be next!

[Lancelot]

Yes, such heroes the American soldiers - bombing the rice farmers back to the stone age. You are right, you can be so proud of your country - but unfortunately all that will not change much how others think about the USA and your simpleton patriotism.

You travel all the way to Thailand to sit behind a key board and tap out "My country is good, yours is bad..."

Some of you guys need to chill out and get laid

[animatic]

Yawn.

Funny is i seldom met such patriotic USAmericans in RL. The opposite, many feel ashamed for their country and think they have to say 'sorry we are usamericans' and i have to tell them don't worry i will not judge them by their nationality because its not in their responsibility what happen and what goes wrong, nor would i blame these individuals for the wars by the USA. (I am not practicing a simpleton logic like you, who blames me for the USSR and communism because my nick name is Sergei.)

And only a few times i came across an USAmerican in RL who argued that the whole world want all the time their help. All others in the round laughed them off.

Let's get some things straight Sergei:

1) I wasn't the poster that equated you with the communist Soviet Union; some other poster did

2) I never stated anything resembling the whole world wants US help all the time

3) I never associated your name with the USSR; another poster did

4) Quit putting words in my mouth

5) I am quite fed up with a lot the US does and have not voted for a Repub or Dem since 1984.

6) I am proud of my country and encourage my fellow countrypersons to get their heads out of the rears and make some REAL changes, like getting back to following our wonderful Constitution and focusing on adopting behaviors that enabled the US to accomplish great things.

7) Not all Americans are obese credit junkies who can't even find most other countries on a map. Some of us saw this mess (credit collapse, severe recession, etc) coming 2-3 years in advance and did our best to warn others.

8) READ more carefully

9) Sober up before you post

10) I am NOT going "home". But you're welcome to try and force me to. Good luck.

Whether it be 'lefties' complaining about the US being the self-appointed policeman of the world, or 'righties' getting fed up with having to 'come to the aid' of all these countries that ask for their help, both camps ignore the only fundamental truth there is to foreign policy. That is, all countries act purely in their own interests on the world stage.

So why do both camps insist on couching their objections in the context of some kind of objective moral obligation?

I think the main thing which upsets most people seems to be that when the US does decide to do something on the world stage (which by definition can only be in its own interest, same as for any other country), it is often presented as having some kind of moral basis. Not only can (and does) this end up seeming hypocritical after a while, leading to situations like first arming Saddam then going after him, using force for regime change in some countries but not in equally 'deserving' others etc etc, it also fosters a hatred of the very values being touted as the linchpins of such behavior.

By dressing up global power plays with a moral tone, countries undermine the strength of their own morality as perceived by others.

I rarely agree with you, but in this case yes.

I will note that, the moral tone is most often intended for internal consumption.

Sadly nationalism and the real politic of self-best-interest has made all nations make decisions that seem both hypocritical and morally repugnant to outside observers, and in the big picture can typically be seen as the only logical choice at the time...

seen from hindsight.

Or the work of megalomaniac, power-mad, proto-despots.

But that's another story

Edited November 17, 2010 by animatic

[HannahD]

Viktor Bout extradited. US wins.

I suspect this will be a Pyrrhic victory. Mr. Bout has powerful friends in very high places. His friends will quite probably retaliate by flooding Afghanistan with large quantities of very modern weapons.

[technologybytes]

I'm shocked and disgusted that so many people have strong opinions on this matter without having read the court documents, nor conducted any research.

Unless I'm missing something pretty obvious, there seems to be a total lack of evidence against this guy. KGB ?? He was a translator in the Russian army!

There was no warrant for his arrest at the time he was first detained, the circumstances of his arrest by Thai police was as a result of the hotel staff calling Thai police, the US warrant came 3 days later.

The first allegation of him being an arms smuggler was in a novel, thats a bit like accusing Da Vinci after reading the fictional work of Dan Brown... crazy &lt;deleted&gt;**ed up word that we live in.

If you want to comment on this story then at least get a grasp of the facts..

[HannahD]

I think it's hilarious that no-one on this site realises what Russia might do in retaliation.

What exactly do you think Russia can do in retaliation?

I suspect this will be a Pyrrhic victory. Mr. Bout has powerful friends in very high places. His friends will quite probably retaliate by flooding Afghanistan with large quantities of very modern weapons.

[hammered]

Yawn.

Funny is i seldom met such patriotic USAmericans in RL. The opposite, many feel ashamed for their country and think they have to say 'sorry we are usamericans' and i have to tell them don't worry i will not judge them by their nationality because its not in their responsibility what happen and what goes wrong, nor would i blame these individuals for the wars by the USA. (I am not practicing a simpleton logic like you, who blames me for the USSR and communism because my nick name is Sergei.)

And only a few times i came across an USAmerican in RL who argued that the whole world want all the time their help. All others in the round laughed them off.

Let's get some things straight Sergei:

1) I wasn't the poster that equated you with the communist Soviet Union; some other poster did

2) I never stated anything resembling the whole world wants US help all the time

3) I never associated your name with the USSR; another poster did

4) Quit putting words in my mouth

5) I am quite fed up with a lot the US does and have not voted for a Repub or Dem since 1984.

6) I am proud of my country and encourage my fellow countrypersons to get their heads out of the rears and make some REAL changes, like getting back to following our wonderful Constitution and focusing on adopting behaviors that enabled the US to accomplish great things.

7) Not all Americans are obese credit junkies who can't even find most other countries on a map. Some of us saw this mess (credit collapse, severe recession, etc) coming 2-3 years in advance and did our best to warn others.

8) READ more carefully

9) Sober up before you post

10) I am NOT going "home". But you're welcome to try and force me to. Good luck.

Whether it be 'lefties' complaining about the US being the self-appointed policeman of the world, or 'righties' getting fed up with having to 'come to the aid' of all these countries that ask for their help, both camps ignore the only fundamental truth there is to foreign policy. That is, all countries act purely in their own interests on the world stage.

So why do both camps insist on couching their objections in the context of some kind of objective moral obligation?

I think the main thing which upsets most people seems to be that when the US does decide to do something on the world stage (which by definition can only be in its own interest, same as for any other country), it is often presented as having some kind of moral basis. Not only can (and does) this end up seeming hypocritical after a while, leading to situations like first arming Saddam then going after him, using force for regime change in some countries but not in equally 'deserving' others etc etc, it also fosters a hatred of the very values being touted as the linchpins of such behavior.

By dressing up global power plays with a moral tone, countries undermine the strength of their own morality as perceived by others.

Precisely

Im still waiting for ther Russains in their self interest to lift a couple of American businessmen/spies and force a swop.

[mark45y]

I'm shocked and disgusted that so many people have strong opinions on this matter without having read the court documents, nor conducted any research.

Unless I'm missing something pretty obvious, there seems to be a total lack of evidence against this guy. KGB ?? He was a translator in the Russian army!

There was no warrant for his arrest at the time he was first detained, the circumstances of his arrest by Thai police was as a result of the hotel staff calling Thai police, the US warrant came 3 days later.

The first allegation of him being an arms smuggler was in a novel, thats a bit like accusing Da Vinci after reading the fictional work of Dan Brown... crazy &lt;deleted&gt;**ed up word that we live in.

If you want to comment on this story then at least get a grasp of the facts..

You are serious aren't you. You are missing something very obvious. Try reading newspapers or google or something before making such a foolish post. Your lack of information is mind boggling.

[mark45y]

I think it's hilarious that no-one on this site realises what Russia might do in retaliation.

What exactly do you think Russia can do in retaliation?

I suspect this will be a Pyrrhic victory. Mr. Bout has powerful friends in very high places. His friends will quite probably retaliate by flooding Afghanistan with large quantities of very modern weapons.

Who are his friends? What is a very modern weapon? How much do they cost?

You made a very silly post.

[Sigmond]

Russia stopped selling weapon to Iran. The USA answered "Thanks" and arrests Bout. Russia is silly. haha

[mark45y]

Russia stopped selling weapon to Iran. The USA answered "Thanks" and arrests Bout. Russia is silly. haha

Russia sold weapons to 53 different countries last year. When did they stop selling them to Iran? Oh, and is Bout a representative of the Russian Government? I didn't know that.